Independence day
I鈥檝e been doing my sums and I reckon Alex Salmond has until Friday 24 August to publish his White Paper on an independence referendum.
In Holyrood today, the first minister said that he would stick to his promise to release the document within his first 100 days in power. Calculating from the date he was elected FM, I make that August 24.
Other pledges in that 鈥100 days鈥 schedule are unlikely to be sustained. That鈥檚 because the SNP lacks a majority.
But the independence White Paper will definitely be published. Rather close to the deadline, I suspect: at least, in August.
Opposition leaders wondered why. Indeed, Nicol Stephen voiced exasperation that civil servants鈥 time was being wasted in drafting the document, given that Holyrood arithmetic meant there was zero prospect of implementation.
I have some slight sympathy with his point - although I doubt that all that many person hours will require to be devoted to this task. I doubt that the document will require legislative precision.
For a White Paper, it will have a decidedly Green edge.
Alex Salmond has also been doing his sums. If the opposition parties can gang up to enforce Edinburgh trams, they can do the same to block moves towards independence.
And they will.
So the anticipated WP will be more of a starting point for a conversation with the people of Scotland than a programme for scheduled government action.
Why, then, not publish it as a party policy paper - rather than an executive document? No doubt that would be Nicol Stephen鈥檚 view.
I think, however, it is legitimate for the elected executive to outline formally the principal policy in their manifesto, which is to hold a referendum on the question of Scottish independence. It is then legitimate for Holyrood to debate the document - and endorse it or otherwise.
Of course, the business of parliament must not be utterly dominated by causes which are likely to be lost.
As an issue, however, independence is of a rather different calibre from individual policies.
Is it not right to test it?
I'm 
Comments
I think we should have a vote on this this about Scotland future. The People of scotland voted for SNP Government. The Bussiness comunity want a vote on Scotland's future.
The other Parties - especially Labour - are annoying me very much in this issue.
If they are so convinced that the people of Scotland do not want independence, then let the SNP have their referendum, which in all probability they will lose, and it will be a chance for all the opposition Parties - especially Labour - to humiliate the SNP. Labour might manage to win back power in the next election (Not that I want that to happen).
If, however, they are so conviced that the people of Scotland do want independence, then they are deliberately withholding what the people want. Hardly democratic.
I believe that the SNP will be true to their word and they will publish a white paper on independence. This will be an interesting time to listen to the debates for and against, the truth will come out in the wash as they say. in the article below the best answer that Alastair Darling can come up with is "This is typical of the nationalists, looking back to the past. This document is 30 years old". Indead it is 30 years old, but, correct me if I am wrong but isnt oil worth more nowadays?
We are only half way through our supply, all of the subsequent Westminster Gov's have done nothing but lie about what is left and scare people into believing that we cannot survive on our own. Now with 850 Billion still to be had over the next 30 years, thats alot of Planes, Trams and automibiles.
Come on lets have a referendum and let the Yes campaign begin.
Indeed. Well put.
Slainte
ed
The SNP Executive have got to be seen to pursue this if only to keep their more vociferous wing happy; although I wouldn't mind betting that, with their conduct over the past few weeks, they have already attracted more people in Scotland to the idea of independence. It will take time though, but it is no longer unthinkable.
The new Executive has been a revelation. All of them have looked busy, keen, competent and full of ideas in their leader Alex Salmond they have a world-class statesman.
No matter if you are a die hard union, federal or independence supporter I still see no reason to deny Scotland a right, for which we have gone to war in order to uphold in other nations, as defined in article 1.1 of the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights to ensure that "all peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development".
Who or what gives the right to any person, leader or political party to deny the nation of Scotland that, our most fundamental right? Why so much fuss over a referendum on the future development of the EU to cede a few more powers when there is no right to call into democratic question via referendum the Union of the Parliaments, in which all power and sovereignty of Scotland was ceded? This treatment wasn't uncommon for smaller nations in the 18th century, but what isn't uncommon in the 21st century is incredibly successful nations of less than 8-10 million in population finding their own way, with a great deal of success, in the post imperial era.
To not even discuss the option of Scotland having that choice to make tells you all you need to know about the London based political parties.
Brian - spot on as usual. I've been a bit surprised up to now at how much of an easy ride the non-governmental parties are getting at Holyrood over this issue. All those parties campaigned, at least in part on keeping the union and all failed to become the largest party. For them to claim that Scots voted to keep the union is at least debatable. You could then say its an admission that none of their other policies were up to snuff.
The most the executive are proposing at the moment is a referendum. Not automatic Independence. If the Labour, Liberal and Conservatives were so sure that the Scots people would vote to retain the union in a referendum then they should welcome it as Alex Salmond has already said or inferred that it would kill the issue for a generation.
Not having the referendum will only make the SNP supporters feel (and probably quite a few others) that they are being denied a voice because they can't be trusted. This can only help to swell the SNP support next time round. Not having the referendum will cause the issue to grumble on and may in the longer term be a reason for disaffected members of the other parties to jump to the SNP side of the fence.
I just don't get why Labour, the Conservatives, the Lib Dems and all the others oppose a referendum on independence. The debate on independence is all nice and stuff, but nobody really knows what the people actually think of it. Sure, we've had a few opinion polls, but you can't base sound judgements on that.
To really know what Scots think of independence, a referendum should be held. First of all, it would start a genuine debate solely focused on the pros and cons of independence, rather than on whether or not one should vote for the SNP during a general election. After all, some people may disagree with all other SNP policies apart from their stance on independence and thus vote for Labour or Greens or Conservatives.
Secondly, if a majority of Scots truly want independence after an informative debate, it's hardly fair to keep it from them, just because the people in power believe it is bad. That would not be a true democracy, that would just be cherry-picking the opinions of the people that you like and ignoring their will the rest of the time.
Thirdly, if all the other parties truly believe independence is bad for Scotland, then why are they so afraid to put it to the test? If it really is bad, then aren鈥檛 the people clever enough to realise that, and vote no to independence? Are the opposing parties scared of the people, or are they just not that convinced by their own arguments or their own power to convince people to do what is right?
So there should be a referendum. Possibly non-binding, as a way to find out people's views, give them a few options to choose from, if you like. Then we can discuss, debate, work out informed plans for the future.
I do think the publication of the White Paper on independance is rather a moot point.
I agree with Brian in that, this is the SNP, they weren't going to get into power and not try to publish the document. It is the mainstay of what the party stands for - independance.
What I will say with regards to this is that Nicol Stephen is much better using his voice to try and gain his party some ground rather than arguing against something that really we all knew would come anyway.
How do we think the leaders are fairing at the moment by the way in the question times? Obviously I am going to say that I think Mr Salmond is doing rather well. Jack McConnell is starting to annoy me (but that could just be his voice, I am not sure). The two I am most surprised about however is Anna Goldie and Nicol Stephen. Ms Goldie is really quite a good speaker, and is coming accross as quite quick off the mark too. Mr Stephen on the other hand just looks like he is trying too hard to be carismatic, and not really succeeding... I actually feel bad for him, he seemed to have a lot more promise on the elction trail... What do we all think? A little PR competition for the major party leaders. Curious to get other opinions...
I vote:
1 Mr Salmond
2 Ms Goldie
3 Mr McConnell
4 Mr Stephen
We all know why the SNP are sticking to this: not only is it their core belief but it later enables them to present every party other than the greens as undemocratic for refusing to back a referendum. Quite right too!
If the Tories (be they blue, red or 'liberal' yellow) are so sure they would win a referendum why not hold one tomorrow? In fact that grouping could not agree as even the original tories back more powers! Leaving Labour on their own in the 'no change' camp till new order come from Gordo's despotic court in London.
I am fundamentally opposed to the argument for Scottish independence, I see no value in the debate. It is time there was a referendum which would expose I believe, the SNP as a backward political party with no place in modern politics. Perhaps too there is cause for a referendum on the loss of democracy at the last election.
I was disappointed that the SNP didn't receive a majority as it immediately meant trouble for their proposed 2010 referendum.
Personally I haven't yet made my mind up about independence but by voting SNP I was - I hoped - giving myself the opportunity to at least voice my eventual opinion on it.
Whatever happens, I'm sure the WP will make a good read.
Yes it is right, Brian! There might only be, say, 50 votes for independence, but why wouldn't there be a majority for a referendum? The Libs want referenda on Europe when it suits them, why not one on Scotland? I don't remember any party abstaining from the 97 referendum.
Makes sense to me too Brian
I think you may well find that things are not quite how they seem. Following the cryptic comments from Alex Salmond during this week's First Minister's Questions I would guess that the bill will include both the SNP and LibDem proposals - ie a referendum on both independence and more powers for the Scottish Assembly. How can the LibDems vote against it without exposing themselves to a charge of utter hypocrisy? The position of the Tories is unknown, but they have already expressed a desire to get the issue out in the open. SNP tactics here, as elsewhere, are to marginalize the Labout Party. If they can coerce the Lin Dems on board, then along with the Greens and big Margo, and perhaps even Tory support, Salmond will get his bill passed.
Brian, since things are likely to be quiet for the next couple of months, maybe you could answer a couple of my questions please...
Is Scottish Labour more or less likely to become independent of London under a Brown leadership?
Do more powers to the Scottish Parliament risk creating a new status quo which would derail the nationalists' independence aspirations? How do you see votes with the following options going in say 2010?
Independence
Status Quo
and
Independence
More Powers
Status Quo
Wales seem to be strongly in favour of full Scottish-style parliament powers now. Do you think devolution in Scotland, Wales and NI act as catalysts for change on one another despite the different circumstances? Once one goes independent, is it inevitable that all 3 will go?
Politicians of whatever party, when achieving power, must be seen to be honouring their manifesto pledges, if not they will clearly be identified by the public and ridiculed by opposition politicians for merely producing their manifesto as a means to an end, i.e. gaining power by being disingenuous only to change tack once in office.
Those politicians who call for the SNP to drop their pledges because they themselves feel the SNP cannot achieve consensus are themselves being disingenuous, for it is they who would attack the SNP should they choose now or in the future to abandon their commitments of their own volition; equally if the SNP did cede to such calls, these minority party politicians would claim a political victory firstly for themselves and secondly for their parties.
I note most of these type of calls seem to be raised by the minnows that are the Liberals; I feel their historic manipulation by Labour politicians has caused them to believe they are a party of power rather than the reality of being a numerical factor.
The SNP must publish these manifesto pledges for their current and future credibility.
I think that if the Scottish people want independence they will let it be known and independence there will be. Are Labour and other parties perhaps afraid that they will say YES? If they are not afraid then what's the problem with a referendum?
On another point - perhaps slightly related - the Labour parties behaviour at the parliament today was that little less than childish and sour grapes. Perhaps if they'd listened more closely to what Alex Salmond had to say they would have heard what any Nationalist would be expected to say, and yet he maintained a decorum of the aims of most of the MSP's, and that is a debating parliament. LABOUR LOST for pete's sake will they get over it!!
It would not be undemocratic for the other parties not to back a referendum. Indeed, it would be an insult to the electorate who voted for the particular party after stating their stance on such a referendum.
If the other parties did back such legislation, they would be going against their election commitments. Wouldn't that be the biggest insult to democracy. The people have already spoken - the make up of this parliament tells us the answer. Only 49 of 129 seats went to pro-independence parties. The people voted in a parliament which is against a independence referendum - no matter how you spin it - that is the reason the Scottish people will not have one.
I believe that everyone needs to step back and look at the independence question in more depth. The ordinary Soct, Englishman, Welsman or Irishman is not so concerned about constitutional matters, that it's on his mind while he is cooking his egg and bacon. However, a constitutional matter like this needs to be clearly understood. Its not a question of supporting your own nation's football or rugby team, its not about who's flag looks better, its not about the food we eat or the drink we drink. The issue is the separation of Scotland from the rest of the UK- meaning Wales, England and Northern Ireland. It will mean the abolition of all UK institutions in Scotland, it will mean an established border, cause problems for families on both sides. So when this eventual question is posed to the people of Scotland, I say this, dont make a decision of that pride you get when Scotland scores against England, vote in a sensible, controlled and dignified manner, understanding what it will mean. The Union is a good thing, its not English dominance over other nations or an Imperial belief of colonial enterpirse. It is however, about four nations working together, keeping their position strong in the world, enjoying a great economy and celebrating different regional cultures. We are not England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, We are the United Kingdom, one nation striving for prosperity.
I have often wondered why the London based governments, of whatever hue have been so adamant that independence would be bad for Scotland. The Labour Party even went to the extreme of amending the voting system to make sure that there was no possibility of the last referendum succeeding, without there being virtually 100% turnout at the poll.
It is understandable that the Labour Party would be against independence, due to the fact that they have almost always needed their Scottish majority to get into power.
The Tories on the other hand should be happy with independence for Scotland, as this would virtually guarantee them perpetual power in London. If you add the 'fact' that we in Scotland can only survive on handouts from central government, then the Tories should be glad to get rid of us.
Why do the London parties want to keep Scotland in the Union, when we are such a burden? I don't for one minute think they are being altruistic!
If they are all so certain that independence is not wanted by the Scottish People they should carry out a referendum, with FPTP voting, to prove the Nationalists wrong.
What are they scared of?
The powers that be south of the border have quelled our right of self determination, even after the majority of voters who voted, voted yes in 1979. What a mouthful. Maybe next time we can have all the non voters counted as a yes. AND THERE WILL BE A NEXT TIME.
I have one question for the labour, liberals and conservatives. Who the hell are you to deny the people of Scotland their right to decide?
As a Scots voter I would expect the labour, liberals and conservatives to find their long lost backbones, shrug off their south of the border shackles and allow the Scottish people to determine the best way forward for Scotland.
PS. I haven鈥檛 decided which way I would vote, but as a voter I demand the right to do so.
I seem to sense some double standards in Scottish politics. One of the main reasons for devolution is so that English MPs were not having a big input on how Scotland is run etc. And yet the SNP want a referendum of Scottish people on independence from the UK. An event that will not only dramatically change Scotland but have a massive effect on every person in the UK. Where is the call for a UK wide referendum on Scottish independence?
Its sad to see the old scare stories around already about independence...
" borders that will cause problems for families".....that is the type of ridiculous statement I expect to read in the Daily Record, surely no sane thinking person is suggesting that if scotland is Independent that wee jeanie cannae go and visit auntie maggie in burnley....Get real!!!
I am guessing that the unionists are running scared....they are terrified of an electorate who is getting to big for its boots....How dare we break with convention and vote in any other than the big 2..shock horror..
I wonder what effects would follow to an eventual victory of the "yes" in the Scotland's indipendence referendum in some parts of Europe, where the indipendence is an important target to get for some territories. An example for all, the Basque question.
Scotland's indipendence would the first of an european territory after the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991 and the following indipendences of the countries a time belonging to it (Estonia, Latvia, Lituania, Poland, etc) and it would have a great historical importance because it would be the conclusion of a dispute began in 1165 and the first indipendence of a country member of the United Kingdom.
An indipendence so full of historical significance like the scottish one would increase the will of the Basque Countries and population to go ahead with the battle for its indipendence by Spain (another Monarchy, usually seen as example of domination in the common rethoric), whose opposition to any form of Basque's indipendent republic is very strong and closed to any possibility of trattative. Basque Countries would feel to have fully right to get their indipendence in base to the same Scotland's reasons: otherwise, as Scottish aren't English, Basques aren't Spanish and this is a good reason to ask for the indipendence.
Scotland's indipendence can be the key-event which would revitalize the projects of indipendence in many other european territories.
Well.. that's my idea.. if someone agrees or disagrees with it, feels free to write it there.
However... I support the scottish indipendence.
it may be 24 august(100) days before the white paper comes out but i bet the others will be in a tizzzy wondering what wee eck;s gonna come up with before then
dont under estimate the man
hes a smart cookie****
Alex
Ireland (most of it) gained independence from the UK. It wasn't treated as part of the UK which is the primary reason why its people decided to go it alone.
Brendan
I have had such trouble keeping in touch with my relatives in Ireland that I have lost touch with them and fear the same will happen with my realtives in Scotland after Scottish Independence. It's not like we have post, e-mail, telephones, free travel within the EU, a free travel area between UK and Ireland, carrier pigeons, semaphore - GET THE MESSAGE! GET REAL! If the only unionist argument for retaining the Union is being cut-off, Berlin Wall style, then the Union is doomed.
Frank, Plymouth
Didn't more people vote AGAINST independance than voted for it (ie people voting Labour, Tory and LibDem rather than SNP)? Hardly gives old Two Salaries the right to claim a ringing endorsement of his party's stance, does it?
How can one have pride in one's country if you argue and fight to let another country rule your country?
All I can assume from the unionists perspective is that they have a fear that Scotland is a basket case and scrounging off England is the best strategy.
In all honesty the English could not give two hoots what Scotland does, it鈥檚 not on their radar, they do not care, why should they? Many happily go through life without ever visiting Scotland.
The main defence of unionists for continued union appears to be that pro independence nationalists are "anti-English". However when you read the postings, the pro independents message is that we can do better for ourselves rather than rely on UK hand outs. Why is this narrow minded or tantamount to having a chip?
Perhaps the Unionists should take their argument to its logical conclusion and start evangelising in the Rep of Ireland for Ireland to come back in to the fold of the UK?
Back to pride, the Irish have pride and confidence in themselves and their country鈥檚 standing in the world. Scottish nationalists have this pride too, they know who they are and have a vision for Scotland鈥檚 future. This pride is singularly lacking in unionists, some actively despise Scotland and run it down at every opportunity to ensure dependency is perpetuated.
Come a referendum, the campaign from a nationalist perspective will be up beat and positive, from the unionist perspective it will be subdued and negative. I know who I鈥檒l be voting for!
Referendum, bring it on!
Gordon McLean
#28 - actually, Mr McLean, given the sectarian abuse I've heard from 'fellow Scots' over the years, I'd be happier to take my chances with the English. There's only one place I've ever been called a 'Fenian bd', and it wasn't in England. Nor was in in NI, which is amusing in a black sort of way.
Frankly, I don't trust a large proportion of my 'fellow Scots' not to start planning to move people like me 'back to where we came from' - despite the fact that I am the third generation of my family to be born in Glasgow. To some, the fact that four generations back my family moved from Ireland (and are Catholics) seems to remove from us for ever the prospect of being 'proper Scots'. So no, I won't be voting to put myself in their power, thank you very much.
I don't know whether it is sad, mad, bad or comedic to see post 30. Is Annia saying that she foresees Scots ethnically cleansing fellow Scots and sending them to Ireland? This is complete fantasy and desperate Labour scaremongering. Labour at its most comical. Some observations -
The name calling and jibes that you refer to are highly likely to be of a Unionist persuasion, not SNP or other nationalist persuasion. Why would Scottish nationalist abuse people whom themselves are likely to have leanings toward Irish nationalism?
Frankly sectarianism does not feature in SNP politics where as, Labour has long actively chased and cynically manipulated the Catholic vote. The Tories have long cultivated links with the Orange Order.
Therefore I suggest to Annia, she has more to worry from continued union and people flying a union flag than a St Andrews Cross.
If you continue not trust Scottish people, perhaps some self examination and reanalyse of Scottish politics is required?
Morag McNab
Morag McNab
I WOULD VOTE FOR A REFERENDUM BECAUSE OUR COUNTRY WAS SOLD OFF BY SELFISH ROGUES IN 1707, its now time we got back our country.
#31 Ms McNab, I refer you to a story on these very pages today:
"An 11-year-old Polish boy kicked and punched in what police believe was a racist assault in Aberdeen was the victim of an earlier attack.
Robert Strazek was treated in hospital after he was set upon by two teenagers near his home in Seaton.
It has now been revealed he was also attacked in April. "
No, nothing to worry about.
wow! rab, aren't you vocal!!
Annia, if you live in such fear of your fellow Scots why don't you leave, no-one's going to force you, Scots Nationalism isn't like that. Perhaps your fears are mis-placed?
I was immensely proud that the first Asian MSP was an SNP candidate ... I even went so far as to write a wee blog post about it myself.
Much of the pro-union comments we read here (and elsewhere) seem to be fear and loathing. Undoubtedly a product of scare-mongering tabloid media interventions based on the political agenda's of Editor's.
Where has this notion come from that the majority in Scotland want independence when 61% of the population voted for parties that oppose it? This is PR is action folks, the anti-independence voice is being represented. Surely we should be focusing on something that is more important. Frankly Mr Salmond is wasting our time and money on a proposal that only 39% of the population voted for, it is an affront to democracy and it stinks that he isn't getting a harder time from the media on this issue.