Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú

hmmmm...interesting (1st to comment?)

he sure is a personality, yes?

It would be amusing for the British reader to know exactly *how* our Prime Minister was "intervening with the police to get Ruby (a Moroccan national released": in his call he declared Ruby was at his knowledge Egypt's Mr. Mubarak nephew. And on this assumption our Parliament voted yesterday to ask the Italian Supreme Court to put this trial in the jurisdiction of the so-called "Ministers Court", a tribunal entitled to judge Government members indicted while acting as officials, not private citizens. The majority motion which passed yesterday indicates that Mr. Berlusconi called the police to literally avert an international crisis (Italy *is* doing something for that, you see...).
Andrea Lawendel, Milan

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Surely after all this time and all the ups & downs (literal if one believes even a portion of what is already in the public domain) the genuinely 'shock' headline for Italy would be: '

Berlusconi NOT facing Legal Challenge'!?

At the time of the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, Italians thought they both knew what they were doing. Here's the same.

The real charge is: "abusing his position by intervening with the police to get her released from custody after she was detained for the suspected theft of £2,600."

But nobody talks about. Why?

Now here's an odd thing!

Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is having 'Technical Problems' publishing the 'Preview' & 'Comment' for the previous Article but strangely not for this one!?

I suspect another of those judicious 'technical' interceptions the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is so fond of whenever 'debate' gets into areas even its PC MODERATION cannot cope with.

# 2

with whom he talked on the phone?

Fascinating story I'm sure, but just a note on an issue that may affect more than a few lives in Europe. Roberto Maroni the Italian Interior Minister just concluded an agreement with Tunisian authorities where the tens of thousands of Tunisians recently landed will be given 6 months residency permit so off they go to France, Germany, Austria and of course Belgium. Of the 6,000 prison escapees in Tunisia during their revolution I wonder how many of them are included. Who knows, who cares. Le Figaro seems to be the only media interested in this as all eyes are turned toward the circus in Milan. One of their readers commented this is like Mexico granting Green Cards for its citizens to work in the US. Amazing how the Interior Minister of one country in the EU can determine who shows up in the other members of the EU .... so now back to Cav.

Has Berlusconi been suspended from his duties as PM? I can't seem to find any information on this, and it strikes me as utterly bizarre that he would continue his role whilst under charge for an indictable offence - yet alone facing four trials. In most governments a minister would be suspended until their charges had been cleared in an instance where they had a court case pending. It raises questions on whether Berlusconi's personal power base is seperable from the Italian state as a whole - he is the most powerful man in Italy, and one of the wealthiest in the world and the haunting phrase from the banking crisis springs to mind - is he considered to be 'too big to fail'?

Now here's an even more odd 'Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú Technical Fault'!

My first comment got published & has now disappeared though not referred.

My 2nd comment pointing up the Technical Fault on the previous Article's web-page has disappeared altogether and now as I write this I see that the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is claiming it is 'trying to fix it' (i.e. problem on previous blog), but I SEE OTHER COMMENTS ARE BEING PUBLISHED 6 NOT MINE, though again, no referral for Moderation.

Paranoid, am I? No, cetainly not! Are the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú oput to get me? Yes, certainly are!


Teeheeeeee.

I am a British citizen who has lived in this wonderful country Italy for 10 years. It is legitimate that the wider world should find so hugely amusing the cavortings of a Prime Minister whom recently the Economist pronounced a "buffoon" (having in the past made and supported many far more serious allegations against him). But I wonder whether anyone from "outside" realizes how deeply disheartening, indeed heartbreaking, it is for the many millions of serious-minded, honest, responsible Italian citizens to be associated with this carnival of corruption, debauchery and dishonest political practice. Think about this before enjoying your next chuckle ...

Mr.Berlusconi will survive this trial same as all the other trial in the past.
The Italian men in public my criticize is behavior bat secretly they wish to be able to do the same.
As for Italy it is truth and sad after the departure of Mr.Prodi Italy do not have any strong political leaders to challenge Berlusconi/Bossi.
The center left argue with them self and don't see the damage the current government do to the Italian Nation.
john

Good old Berlusconi ; doing and getting away with what most of our petty politicians pretend they don't do but would like to do . At least he is sure of his sexuality which is something lacking in a lot of British politicians. Considering how much he's worth, he must be doing something right, and considering how long he's lasted, the Italian people obviously think he's doing it right and is worth having around.

Is this a case of courtus interruptus?

disgusting chauvinist. the fact that he's still in power shows what a regressive country italy still is.

I agree entirely with Max Loppert - this situation is sickening for most Italians and the prospects are very very dim - today is the anniversary of the earthquake in Aquila and the town is being left to crumble - no efforts have been made to restore and the place is a labyrinth of scaffolding....the new housing was jerry built by Berlusconi's cronies and are already leaking or falling apart while the former inhabitants of Aquila beg for their town to be returned to them.
Berlusconi's lies are legendary and one of the latest was disproved last night on the rai tv. Last week he went to Lampedusa and apart from cracking the usual crude jokes announced that he had bought a house on the island - the most beautiful one (ofcourse!) and films were taken of him visiting. Last night a journalist who is a personal friend of the property's owner told the public that Berlusconi was a liar: his claim just wasn't true - another lie to add to the mountain...
The new election law which his government introduced overwhelming favours the party in power, the new education act favours private education against state, university faculties are disappearing overnight, thousands of tutors and teachers have lost their jobs, the grants for culture have been slashed while theatre companies and orchestras fight for their lives, the social services have been replaced by families who are quickly running out of their savings while supporting their children and parents etc., etc., etc..... sounds familiar anyone??
What he is doing to Italy is far, far worse than Rubygate, a mirror of the man's pathetic mentality sadly admired by some Italians but abhorred by most. We can see no end to it....

The Prosecutors have been trying to nail Berlusconi for years . Prosecutors and Judges in Italy are largely socialist and are abusing their powers , I believe .

In Italy you are deemed guilty until proven innocent , so it's easy for the prosecutors to take him to court , whether there is sufficient evidence or not .
As no laws in Italy are ever repealed , lawyers can argue the present laws and all the previous laws , making court cases very long , drawn out and inconclusive .

It is my belief that this case is being brought for purely political motives . There will be enough people/women who will testify to Berlusconi's innocence . Such a case is a waste of public money .

John speaks of Prodi , as if he might have saved the day . Prodi was a soft "old woman" , never a strong leader . Berlusconi is the best that Italy's got by far ; in this time of financial strife they are very foolish to try to pull him down .

#11 Max Loppert

I too have lived some years in Italy .
I would guarantee that all the serious , responsible Italians , as you describe them , have got some little pet corruption that they don't see as such . I know a lot of people in all walks of life and nearly all have some little trick up their sleave .
People who spend the morning drinking coffee in a bar with friends , when they should be in their office . Comune staff who have their coats on ready to leave at 11:30am , tell you they are too busy , come back next week . corruptions are part and parcel of Italian life , everyone does it so it's alright .

#16 Inlutto

It is a pity Italy doesn't have the Centro Sinistra in power . The people would then see the difference .
Italy cooked the books when she joined the Euro , Prodi as president of the Commission must have known . Joining the Euro was a massive mistake fore Italy and all the other mediterranean countries .
Italy is teetering on the edge of solvency . It is my guess that under a Centro Sinistra party it would soon go Belly UP , topple over the edge .

The best we can hope for from politicians is that they run a country in a responsible manner for the benefit of it's citizens.As recent experience in this country has shown politicians are entirely incapable of doing even that so expecting them to have a blameless personal life is,frankly,stupid.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

I have lived in Italy for the last 40 years, where I taught English at a state school until I retired. How totally different the 2 countries are!
I wouldn't be at all surprised if B does another Houdini act and gets off scot free. He is an extremely rich man, an opportunist who will stop at nothing to further his own interests, which are never the interests of ordinary Italians. He is tolerated, and even admired, only by those who would like the opportunity to live the way he does. Those who have no scruples and are devoid of any kind of integrity. He is not tolerated, however, by those Italians who do have integrity and, fortunately, there are many of them.
B is desperately trying to stop all his other trials, especially the Mills trial, which is for him the most dangerous. The Ruby trial will probably be the ony one to go ahead, and he will use it to his advantage, turning it into a show which no one will forget.
I personally am sick of hearing even his name and feel completely disheartened every time I see him on tv, making promises he will never keep to those Italians who continue to be taken in by him and believe he has their interests at heart. He is completely false.

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Sex and politics....not a new story.....in many countries....Libya is about revolution and dictatorship and big oil.....how boring....Italians would rather talk about sex.

"In Italy you are deemed guilty until proven innocent .. "

Where is this not true though ? Surely not the US - despite what the authorities here want you to believe. The fact of the matter is, sad as it may be, people believe way too much. Even more so is first impressions last, and if someone you never heard about is suddenly on the news doing a horrible thing, then you'll _associate_ their name by what they supposedly did, thereby proving to yourself they did this or that. This is why I say there is no such thing as justice - there is a legal system only. And it's in fact (sadly) 100% true - whoever has the best lawyer usually wins.

The other part is (in the US anyway) the jury. They are nothing but biased and often sympathetic if they can even see themselves doing the crime or have in the past (e.g., driving while under the influence). And what happens is they get away free, then do it again and kill someone or themselves. Frankly, those who let them get away with it should do the time with the original person.

About this case: I shouldn't find it so amusing but I do. If I remember right, I read that Ruby was supposedly 18 in a few days - the legal age there - of the original claim. Then suddenly some while later, they claim he had sex with her more times. Well there goes a lot of credibility I'd say. Changing the charges to help them win the case is pathetic (of course, this could have just not been reported initially but it is suspicious how it came out). So which is it, prosecutors? Either way, a few days before 18 is ridiculous to worry about - especially a 17 year old that knows well enough any implications and is perfectly responsible for their own actions. Realistically, a 17 year old versus an 18 year old; if they do not know the implications by 17 they likely won't at 18 either. I do not agree with anything similar with kids, but if the age is 18 and she was practically 18, well that's how it goes there.

Indeed I agree with another poster: the real issue is him getting her out of legal trouble by influence.

I recently found an article on 'Il Corriere della Sera' which I deem most interesting.

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

To british readers: this newspaper has the largest diffusion in Italy (loosely comparable to your 'The Times') and is not owned nor influenced by Berlusconi.

The author, Sergio Romano, well-known journalist and former Ambassador to Moscow, has always distinguished himself for his allergy to 'taking sides'; he stills answers and publishes letters from readers. Sometimes he is given the opportunity to write an editorial, a main comment on major news. He is no admirer of our prime minister, neither he is a militant opposer.

This is a brief synthesis: he maintains Berlusconi would better undergo the trial and accept whichever punishment is eventually handed down to him. He should not criticize the institution of the Judiciary in its entirety: that would be dangerous, it would possibly trigger a similar behaviour by normal citizens. Paradoxically, the trial could turn out to be a tool in its favour: the accusations are of such kind as the average italian citizen would easily forgive. Romano then comments on the judiciary: 'It is not necessary to be a Berlusconi supporter or a PDL voter to feel some uneasiness at certain initiatives of the enquiring judiciary'.
The article's attention then switches to the necessity of avoiding a mostly dangerous institutional war between judicial power and executive power.
It finally concludes by saying that the PM should keep governing and accepting parliamentary confrontation: 'if he holds a majority, nothing, apart from a final sentence, can take him down. If the majority is not sufficient, people will be called back to the polls. In both cases we will have shown that politics are not made in Courts of Justice, but in Parliaments and election polls'.

So, it is not just Berlusconi and his supporters who feel there's something odd with certain italian judges. Wikileaks cables highlighted some US diplomats' concerns on this issue as well.

My opinion sits largely with S. Romano's. I think it is time for Berlusconi to realize that he is damaging the country beyond repair: that his problems with leftist judges do not and SHOULD NOT concern and affect the italian people. Once you give a judge a chance to pursue you, you can't complain with him if he does exactly that . And he gave them so many chances...

He will eventually come down, one way or the other. Nobody will take his place, it's a one-man-centered coalition, the one he is leading.

But I hope his successor in power will succeed not only in governing, but in fixing the institutional mess that sees our country embroiled in a virtual civil war, with newspapers, TVs, wiretappings and tribunals as battlefields.

@8 phillipwest

"Fascinating story I'm sure, but just a note on an issue that may affect more than a few lives in Europe. Roberto Maroni the Italian Interior Minister just concluded an agreement with Tunisian authorities where the tens of thousands of Tunisians recently landed will be given 6 months residency permit so off they go to France, Germany, Austria and of course Belgium. Of the 6,000 prison escapees in Tunisia during their revolution I wonder how many of them are included. Who knows, who cares. Le Figaro seems to be the only media interested in this as all eyes are turned toward the circus in Milan. One of their readers commented this is like Mexico granting Green Cards for its citizens to work in the US. Amazing how the Interior Minister of one country in the EU can determine who shows up in the other members of the EU .... so now back to Cav. "

Absolutely. Do you also remember how any EU politicians said that those people will be transferred back to Tunisia in the beginning? Were were even openly called economic refugees.
What a surprise that all of these refugees were shipped to Italy, which is much farther away from Lampeduse than Tunisia is.


Now the refugees on Lampeduse are already demolishing equipment, attacking the police, all this while demanding transportation to mainland Europe.


But I guess Berlusconi on trial for the 100th time is more imporant.

#5 - Alessandro_Manzotti

Absolutely. The Clinton-Lewinsky thing really had very little to do with whether or not a relatively trivial event occurred. The question that engage the authorities was whether he subsequently lied to Congress about it. Now there is a cultural difference within the limitation of attitudes to sexual conduct with a significant 'moral lobby' in the States who seriously believe in the biblical interpretation of how one should or should not behave. This is far less prevalent in Europe where there remains some respect for the privacy of public figures in the conduct of their private affairs providing they do not break the law.

The narrow question here is whether there has been unlawful conduct.

The wider questions about whether or not any constitution can really claim to be democratic if it offers legislators and ministers immunity or protection from prosecution does not seem to have been addressed at all.

And, of course, there is the question of whether it actually matters at all in a country in which the incumbent's opponents are so divided and disorganised that there is no credible opposition. If I were Italian, I would be far less worried about the leisure activities of Mr. B than what it says about the state of politics and government and democracy itself.

1. """Italy is one of the world's largest economies.It is a major European democracy. Some of its bases are being used for military action. It was Libya's closest ally in Europe."""

2. """It should have been playing a leading role in resolving the crisis. It isn't. Its attention lies elsewhere, in a courtroom in Milan.""""

You should not even need to refer to 2. It is THAT evident!

"He said a pollster had inquired as to how many women on the island would sleep with him - 30% said "yes", he told a small crowd, and 70% said "what, again?"


Hehe I find that pretty funny.



I agree there is plenty of other issues that should be addressed instead of this trial.


I just don't find it surprising anymore that politicians in any position have affairs or pay for sex and so on. Hell in all of the years that I have lived in the US there have been so many politicians apologizing about having affairs with this woman or that woman. The public used to see this as a big shock, now it's nothing new.


Remember that one US Governor I think it was who had an affair with that woman in Brazil? Where he actually flew to Brazil to see her. Ok she was hot but it's still wrong.


Oh well it's not like it's gonna change.




TheCommunist

#28 DurstigerMann
Just as a diversion from the CAV story, it seems the deal for these 6 month residency permits was done by Umberto Bossi who heads the Northern League in return for permission for the League to create some sort of militia. Imagine, a militia, for the League in Italy. All this ok'd by Berlesconi, with Barosso, EU Commission President, nodding his assent. I spend a lot of time in Italy, in fact was in Siracusa, Sicily when all this started some weeks ago but my Italian is unreliable so maybe I'm missing something. Also watched Cecelia Malmstrom, EU Immigration Commissioner, state that the Tunisians did not qualify for asylum but a couple of thousand Somali and Eritrian workers who could not be repatriated would be eligible. Now it seems the whole kitandcaboodle is coming. Oh and France is now checking crossings at Ventimiglia upsetting the Shengen folks at the EU. I suspect some pretty intense "diplomacy" is now underway and so no news at all really out there yet. OK .... back to this story of CAV and his ... uh well ... trial which was adjourned this morning after 7 minutes.

The "Berlusconi on trial" blog topic will be remembered for only one thing...

for the fact that the Moderators permit to anonimolombardo, at his #27,to post a link in Italian.

[I see moderators or the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú found out that the British, finally, learned at least one EU foreign language. Miracles sometimes happens]

#33 Ellinas

--✄-- Moderators permit to anonimolombardo, at his #27,to post a link in Italian. --✄--

Moderators! That was really fast...just like Berlusconi's trial...

...link adjourned after only 5 minutes.

Huaimek - I find your overall guarantee that all Italians have tricks up their sleeves to corrupt rather over the top and an insult to those who refrain: to corrupt indicates that all Italians bribe...this is not true, neither is it true that they are shirks: I worked in Milan and can assure you that the shirks were few and far between and not only did the Italians work more than many in Europe, they also worked better.... What a shame that during the time you lived in Italy you didn't experience the generosity of the Italians, their flair, their creativity, their warmness and hospitality or perhaps you didn't try.
The point is not if the Centre Left had been in government rather than the PdL - the point is that Berlusconi's government doesnot respect the Constitution and the Law but runs the country as a private company. As for the Euro it was Berlusconi's government that refused to bring in price control looking on while prices doubled overnight while salaries and pensioned were halved. Berlusconi was only too pleased to convert to the Euro because if the Lira had been retained his companies would have gone to the wall - before he went into politics his empire was teetering ....
As for Italy standing on the edge of insolvency - what a fallacy : Italy has already gone over the edge and is sinking - Tremonti the Financial Minister says that they saved the nation but when they do go, they will leave a nation on their knees and once again the Italians will suffer once again.... Incidentally the last Prodi government actually left the accounts in order after having found the coffers empty.
The problem with Berlusconi’s private life, apart from the obvious is that he could be bribed (remember John Profumo) but also the use of public money when the state owned methods of transport are used to accompany the girls to and from his various residences by state police.
A word to Plath: it is not the country that is regressive, it is the present goverment - the new election law introduced by Berlusconi and described, after it was passed, by the minister who introduced it as a "porcata" (piggish) makes it very difficult to oust them and while Berlusconi receives huge media coverage the opposition has very little - both state and private tv news services have, lately, been reprimanded by the "vigilence committee" for their overwhelming bias.
Anonimolombardo – Your blog is misleading : I am sure you are aware that Mediabanca is the main share holder in the RCS group which owns the Corriere della Sera – just over 14% and Mediabanca is part of the Berlusconi empire… While appreciating Sergio Romano’s intellect and intelligence it is a known fact that he is on the right of the political spectrum and in the past has been a keen supporter of the PdL – he has now changed tack regarding Berlusconi’s position appreciating the damage being down to the nation and the PdL .
C – in EU law you are innocent before you until proven guilty….thank goodness!!

Hallo Gavin it was good to see you deal with Italian "politics" again, not much has changed since we talked last about 20 years ago. Very upsetting

As an Italian living abroad is just embarassing to see how immature and decadent our political systems is. Unfortunately Berlusconi is the mirror of a disillusioned society, slave of his media power and unable to look beyond the personal interest. Many Italians look at the PM as the only men to make them rich and these "troubles" do not bother the common people. Never came under question to suspend the PM or remove him from power, nor the other MP are any better: corruption, sex scandals and abuse of power are so common in Italy that for many of us is not anymore a news.
Think of this: last week ex French President Chirac came under trial for creating 21 job posts in exchange of votes. In Italy you have exchange of votes at every level of the public administration, government posts, general election and administrative elections and even private sector, and cut across all the potical and coalition parties.
What we need in Italy is a political awakening, open the minds and abandon our nationalist and provincial mindset, ready to sacrifice personal gaining and egoism for a real political change in the interest of the nation.