Part of the Union?
Back after an Easter break spent egg trundling at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, I turned to today's Daily Telegraph and Gordon Brown's sterling defence of the union . Before the DUP and UUP take too much heart from having such a staunch ally, they might note that the PM mentions England, Scotland and Wales a few times, but this corner of the UK seems strangely air brushed out of his picture.
On the topic of the union and its citizens, my colleague Ruth McDonald pointed me to a Westminster Early Day Motion from the Islington Labour MP Emily Thornberry taking the former Attorney General Lord Goldsmith to task over his suggestion that Irish citizens resident in Great Britain should lose their right to vote in Westminster elections. Amongst other things, Ms Thornberry castigates Lord Goldsmith for not consulting with representatives of the Irish community or the Irish government
I looked back at Lord Goldsmith's review, published earlier this month. He makes it clear that he doesn't want to take away the right to vote in Westminster elections from anyone from Northern Ireland who is exercising their right to Irish citizenship under the Good Friday Agreement. Instead he says " it would be necessary to distinguish this group of Irish citizens from others. I have not been able to examine the different practical means of doing this but this would have to be part of further consideration of the issue. My proposal is dependent on finding a satisfactory means of distinguishing the two categories in a way that did not affect the position of those exercising rights under the Good Friday Agreement."
He adds "the restriction of the right to vote in Westminster elections should be phased, so that no person who is already resident or registered to vote in the UK loses the right to vote". Where this would leave, say, our Education Minister Caitriona Ruane, who lives in the Irish Republic but would like to be the MP for South Down, I don't know. Apart from the response from nationalists (Mark Durkan has signed the EDM), I can imagine the Irish government could get exercised on this topic - presumably any move by Westminster to remove the right to vote from Irish citizens would provoke Dublin to review the reciprocal arrangements which allow British citizens to vote in Dail elections.
I'm 
°ä´Ç³¾³¾±ð²Ô³Ù²õÌýÌý Post your comment
The omission of a mention of Northen Ireland in Gordon Brown's article about the strength of the 'Union'kind of goes along with the possiblity of passport controls as part of the 'e-borders' iniiative on crossing the Irish Sea between Great Britain and Northern Ireland which you covered in an earlier article, Mark.
Must say though, it hardly inspires one with confidence in anything Gordon Brown says or does when the Prime Minister of the UK Government does not appear to have a clue where the territory he professes to govern either begins or ends...
If you live here, you should get the vote, no matter where you come from or what nationality you are.
Decisions taken at Stormont or the local councils have as much effect (or ineffect) on immigrants as they have on the rest of us, so they should have a say who makes those decisions.
As long as they don't vote Ulster Unionist. No point in getting the sticky red thing taken off your mouth only to ask for it back again.
1) Would there not be some legal difficulties in excluding Irish voting rights in Britain to do with the Ireland Act 1949 - which effectively said that whilst the south of Ireland had broken all links with Britain, it is not recognised as a foreign country?!
2) Brown's comments reflect the attitude of the vast majority of British* people (* people from Britain not the UK) where Britishness very much refers to the island of Britain. Growing up there you would rarely hear the north incorporated into that grouping, or more to the point 'Ireland' would be spolen of with regards to the whole island. Few people understand the association Unionists hold with 'Britishness', and very rarely would you hear English people call themselves 'British', an ever declining concept...
I think this article from Gordon Brown is very strange. Why doesn't he mention N. Ireland? I hope that we always stay within the UK in order to get a health service, as well as receive the benefits of other government agencies. As for voting Catriona Ruane represents South Down but when or how? The only time she is spotted in South Down is when it is election time. Come to think of it all other 108 MLA's are the same
Mr Devenport, I noticed that too in Mr Brown's poignant 'defence of the Union' speech and I certainly wasn't particularly pleased with the omission. However, it is what we have come to expect from any Labour minister, as they all seem to want Northern Ireland jettisoned off the map-at least from our links with the UK anyway. So, should we realistically expect any more from our incompetent Prime Minister, to whom Ulster means very little apart from expense and problems...?
As for the article itself, Mr Brown states in the second paragraph that we should be "Resolute in defending the Union". Exactly, but why has it taken him so long to realise that this is what Unionists of all kinds have been doing ever since the threat of Irish nationalism was thrust upon us?
Don't worry Elizabeth, the Irish don't want us either.
Strange? Do you really think it strange, Mark? I'd say it's as clear as day that the British government would hand back Northern Ireland in five seconds given the opportunity to do it peacefully, and has been for years.
Looking at the comments on this page though, it raises an interesting question - do the rest of the UK (as individual nations) have any interest in Northern Ireland being part of the union? In my opinion, and having talked to many, many English and Scots about this, they have zero interest in maintaining a union with Northern Ireland and in fact many actively believe that there should be a united Ireland. The only quarter of the UK where people can't seem to grasp that Northern Ireland is unwanted in the union is Northern Ireland itself.
Lets face it, there are very few people on the face of this earth who think of Northern Ireland as being part of the UK. We're talking about a small percentage of people in Ireland (UUs), practically nobody in Britan and as further a field... forget about it!
As regards the standard of services and infrastructure, we all know the south passed us out on this 10 years ago and are now streets ahead.
In reply to Chris Scott:
You are very right, in England there is a very low level of support to keeping the Union at all; I know many English people who reject the term 'British' with venom, as do many Welsh and Scottish (the latter however varies depending on where you are). The English see them self very much as an 'island race', which inevitably incorporates Scotland and Wales; this does not however, include the island of Ireland.
Times have changed very much, but even throughout the Troubles the Irish have been held in great esteem in England, particularly in places like London, to the extent where I know English people apologetic for their presence in the North, and ergo, would prefer a united Ireland...
the issue here is not what the people of england, scotland, wales or ROI want... it is what the people of NI want. as for the english being apologetic for their presence in the north, they do not have a presence in the north! the british state is present in the north as is the will of the people. apologists on the mainland seem not to have any grasp of the situation. do they believe that the NI state exists against the will of the majority in NI?
Criostoir, you let yourself down with your last comment. You pronounce that in England there is "a very low level of support to keeping the Union at all".
You then back that up by telling us about the English people you know whose views just happen to suit you.
There was a period in my life when the vast majority of people I knew thought there was nothing wrong with smoking a bit of dope, and plenty wrong with talking to the police.
There was another period in my life when the vast majority of the people I knew thought that having sex without being married required full, immediate and tearful repentance.
It depends who you hang around with, and human nature means we hang around with people who are like us (or who our parents want us to be like).
Sam, you make a valid point when you say the English do not have a presence in NI, a la West Bank settlements, but you are wrong when you say the issue is what the people of NI want.
Being from NI does not - now brace yourself for this - guarantee any rights or entitlements to what you want.
All it means is, that like 1.6 million other people, you are from NI.
The one phrase that annoys me that I often hear from English people (not as much as Welsh or Scots) is "Over in the UK" when they're over here or ringing you up. ARGHH!!! I eat the heads off them!!! They tend to think we're more a crown dependency than part of the UK proper, yet include the Isle of Man in maps of the UK when it *isn't* part of the UK!!
Rob (Comment No. 13)...
BRITISH ISLES
The Isle of Man is shown on maps because it is part of the British Isles - although as you say, the Isle is not part of the UK.
May be a lot of English, think Northern Ireland is not part of the UK, then some think Northern England is aboard too ?
Some may even think of London as a country, supporting other parts of the UK, even parts of England.
It sad when the PM knows so little about the UK.
Still I would think there more people in the mainland still believe in the UK, just do not see them on the TV or radio all the time.
As an English man reading your comments, it makes interesting reading. I'm afraid for the unionists amongst you, that you are right when you state that most English people would rather have a united Ireland than a union with yourselves. Why is this? Partly because, yes, the Irish communities here have integrated well and are well liked in the main cities of England. However, lets not forget that many English people's views are formed from what we see on the TV news and what we read in the news papers. Unfortunately for those of you who are peaceable moderate unionists, your political cause has been hijacked by the louder more bigoted members of the loyalist communities for a long time. Believe me, it does nothing for the union when we see the the uglier side of the marching season and such instances as Holy Cross School. This kind of thing just makes us cringe and ashamed to be in the same cultural grouping as those people, which is called being British. In these days of multi culturalism in England, when we are making a conscious effort to welcome people of all backgrounds into our communities, it doesn't look good when we see loyalists burning effigies of the pope and Irish tri-colours on July 12th. If the unionists people of Northern Ireland wish to be embraced as an integral part of the UK by their English neighbours, then we need to see you in a softer and warmer light. The moderates amongst you need to persuade the more extreme elements that it is time to give up some of their 'traditions' and move on from the past. ...And after that, I'm off for a cup of tea... Custard cream anyone?
As an English man reading your comments, it makes interesting reading. I'm afraid for the unionists amongst you, that you are right when you state that most English people would rather have a united Ireland than a union with yourselves. Why is this? Partly because, yes, the Irish communities here have integrated well and are well liked in the main cities of England. However, lets not forget that many English people's views are formed from what we see on the TV news and what we read in the news papers. Unfortunately for those of you who are peaceable moderate unionists, your political cause has been hijacked by the louder more bigoted members of the loyalist communities for a long time. Believe me, it does nothing for the union when we see the the uglier side of the marching season and such instances as Holy Cross School. This kind of thing just makes us cringe and ashamed to be in the same cultural grouping as those people, which is called being British. In these days of multi culturalism in England, when we are making a conscious effort to welcome people of all backgrounds into our communities, it doesn't look good when we see loyalists burning effigies of the pope and Irish tri-colours on July 12th. If the unionists people of Northern Ireland wish to be embraced as an integral part of the UK by their English neighbours, then we need to see you in a softer and warmer light. The moderates amongst you need to persuade the more extreme elements that it is time to give up some of their 'traditions' and move on from the past. ...And after that, I'm off for a cup of tea... Custard cream anyone?