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Siobhán's German
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Colin Walls (U201805) on Saturday, 24th February 2007
I was amazed by Siobhán's terrible German pronunciation. Maybe I'm being picky, but she is supposed to be a professional linguist and lives in the country. For example, she mentioned Marienplatz and pronounced it "mah-ree-ann-platz"; any GCSE German student would tell you it should be "mah-reen-platz" because composite vowels [like "ie"] work that way.
BTW, she is clearly in Munich. I could have sworn she was in another city. Did she move? -
Message 2
Posted by jane c (U2234970) on Saturday, 24th February 2007
"Mah-ree-en-platz" is the correct pronunciation.
It's the old genetive for Maria, so the "a" must be pronounced, albeit in a much weakened way. -
Message 3
Posted by Colin Walls (U201805) on Saturday, 24th February 2007
Sorry. I spend a lot of time in Munich and know how the locals say it ...
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Message 4
Posted by ExTAlistener (U3058291) on Saturday, 24th February 2007
Pat's incorrect use of the soft mutation when reporting a road sign as having said "Groeso i Gymru" is another matter, however...
attempt 1
attempt 2
attempt 3
attempt 4 -
Message 5
Posted by Lizaveta Nikolaevna (U2265953) on Saturday, 24th February 2007
I thought she was always in Munich, but I may be wrong. -
Message 6
Posted by petal jam (U1466691) on Sunday, 25th February 2007
Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:23 GMT, in reply to Colin Walls in message 3
Err Colin there are a number of long-time residents in Germany who post here. Not one myself but I do know that locals in Munich have a different 'correct' pronunciation to speakers from say Berlin or Saxony. Would Joe Grundy pronounce "Borchester Bypass" in an identical manner to Alan - or for that matter Caro?
Siobhan might just have a strong Irish accent full stop. Native speakers of other languages have told me that to hear their language spoken with, say, a French accent is as attractive as it is to English ears. -
Message 7
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Sunday, 25th February 2007
Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:43 GMT, in reply to petal jam in message 6
#3 Colin
#6 Petal
And Jane C. is one of them - N. Germany I think. -
Message 8
Posted by jessporter (U2531565) on Sunday, 25th February 2007
Just to put in my 2 euro-cents, there can't actually be much difference between these two versions:
"mah-reen-platz"
"Mah-ree-en-platz"
Say the second one quickly and it sounds like the first one!!
But i'm no expert on Bayrisch dialects, though, so don't know what the locals would say... -
Message 9
Posted by ExTAlistener (U3058291) on Monday, 26th February 2007
Isn't not having a strong forwign accent part of being a professional linguist, though...? -
Message 10
Posted by mike (U2254029) on Monday, 26th February 2007
She's a translator not an interpreter.
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Message 11
Posted by classicalstarlet (U2626409) on Monday, 26th February 2007
I live in Germany and am currently learning German - I think the pronunciation would be Mah - ree en platz - you pronounce every letter in German. I am more mystified by her use of the greeting Gruss Gott - I thought this was only used in Switzerland. I have certainly never heard it here in Cologne. Also, do they have Carnival in Munich? We have it in Cologne but I thought it was very regional. It is also rather frightening and weird. We tend to leave the country!
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Message 12
Posted by Leaping Badger (U3587940) on Monday, 26th February 2007
Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:04 GMT, in reply to Colin Walls in message 1
I was amazed by Siobhán's terrible German pronunciation.Â
She has been away from the programme for a long time. Perhaps she had a cold?
'Ö' -
Message 13
Posted by Colin Walls (U201805) on Monday, 26th February 2007
"you pronounce every letter in German" - not when I was at school. What about words like "die" [pron "dee"] and "frei" [pron "fry"]?
"Gruss Gott" is in common use in Bavaria.
Carnival does happen in Munich. Our office was shut down for the day, for example. -
Message 14
Posted by aliencorrie (U7290756) on Monday, 26th February 2007
Carnival does happen in Munich. Our office was shut down for the day, for example.Â
Which day was that then, Rosenmontag or Faschingsdienstag?
As far as I know, there is no Rosenmontagsumzug in Munich. Whereas shrove tuesday is a real event there.
Last year they had the first Umzug since 1971 and that wasn't on Rosenmontag.
When Siob. spoke to Brian I thaught she was referring to Rosenmontagsumzug.
Perhaps Mr. Keri could be so kind as to enlighten us, this is not the only thread where posters are wondering where S. actally lives.
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Message 15
Posted by Colin Walls (U201805) on Monday, 26th February 2007
It was Shrove Tuesday that our office in Munich was closed on.
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Message 16
Posted by petal jam (U1466691) on Monday, 26th February 2007
Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:42 GMT, in reply to Colin Walls in message 15
Umm just to stir the pot.. o/h went to work a meeting in Mannheim on Shrove Tuesday. People in the streets were dressing up but it was certainly not an official Public Holiday in old sense of our Bank Hols.
Germany is still very much a collection of localities: many Germans still prefer to say 'Ich komme aus... Berlin, Munchen etc. than to identify themselves as non-specific German. -
Message 17
Posted by jane c (U2234970) on Monday, 26th February 2007
Interesting point, petal jam. The one about "ich komme aus..." I mean. -
Message 18
Posted by aliencorrie (U7290756) on Tuesday, 27th February 2007
jane c.
Assuming you are a resident of the UK: If you were abroad and asked by a local where you came from would you really just say from the UK, wouldn't you expand? Naming a biggish universally known town or county/region? -
Message 19
Posted by Twin-Lions (U3870602) on Tuesday, 27th February 2007
If you were abroad and asked by a local where you came from would you really just say from the UK, wouldn't you expand? Â
No, it was always simply "Ich bin Englaenderin". Ther Germans I knew thought we arrived at Dover and wriggled under the huge fog that is always in evidence here and disappeared into an amorphous landscape based on films of Dickens and Sherlock Holmes. (And never realised that Scotland or Wales were separate countries.) Mind you, I'm talking about 25 years ago. -
Message 20
Posted by Keri Davies (U2219620) on Tuesday, 27th February 2007
>Perhaps Mr. Keri could be so kind as to enlighten us
Yes, Siobhan lives in Munich. -
Message 21
Posted by jane c (U2234970) on Tuesday, 27th February 2007
hallo, aliencorrie
another interesting point! One that focusses on the essential difference between Germany and the UK.
Deutschland is a federal nation, like the USA. My American friends always name the state they come from, or the town PLUS state.
In contrast, Britain, like France for example, has a conscious and subconscious focus on the capital of the country.
is what you asked. Nope, not even that, is my reply!
England is the answer.
If my conversation partner shows interest, I supply further details. I don't think there are that many "universally known town[s] or county/region[s]",by the way. Errm, this also applies to US friends!
Why should we expect half the world to know where Norwich is? (NickersOffReadyWhenIComeHome - sorry, old joke) Or Plymouth? Or Manchester, even?
Different parts of the world - different perspectives. Pink hats all round, I think, everybody!
luv
jx -
Message 22
Posted by classicalstarlet (U2626409) on Wednesday, 28th February 2007
I checked with my German teacher (trying to explain what The Archers is in German taxed my powers!) and she confirmed Ma-ree-en-platz, that they do have Carnival in Munich and they say Gruss Gott as its in the South.
In Cologne, both Rosemontag and Shrove Tuesday are public holidays and have various parades etc. Also on the previous Thursday - Weibfest (?) everything closes down at lunchtime, everyone wears costumes and gets drunk and women cut off men's ties and have to kiss them after they have done this - they keep the tie ends as souvenirs. I find it very odd to see normally quiet, well-behaved Germans acting like lunatics all over town. -
Message 23
Posted by smallerpig (U7627034) on Wednesday, 28th February 2007
I'm English, but I've lived in Munich for the last four years. People here say Ma-reen-platz or Ma-ri-en-platz (although the latter is not quite as distinctly "four syllables" as it looks when you write it out).
What was really wierd about the way she pronounced it was the stress: MA-rian-platz. Never heard that - the stress should be on the second syllable.
And her "Grüß Gott" was very odd, too - Grooos rather than Gruess. (Hard to write the difference - hard to say it, too! Took me quite a while to get my vowels sorted out...) And although you definitely say "Grüß Gott" here, rather than "Guten Tag", it's unusual to say it into your intercom as Siobhan did. "Hallo" or "Ja bitte?" would be more normal.
But even translators can have bad accents. She might only translate from German into English (like I do) which means she only has to understand German, not speak it like a native! I don't think it's anything to do with her Irish accent. I had a French lecturer at University with a broad Belfast accent who spoke French like a Parisian aristocrat. It never ceased to suprise me, which is stupid, really. Why should someone who speaks RP English be any better at pronouncing a French (or German) word than someone who speaks English with a strong regional accent?
The Kindergarten being closed on Rosenmontag and Faschingsdienstag is very plausible. Neither day is an official holiday, but it's not uncommon for offices to close down for those two days because as so many people take them as leave, it's not worth staying open. (The Tuesday is the big party day, but as it's not worth going into work for just one day, most people take the Monday as a "bridge" day.)
The stuff about the parade was slightly off, though. As Marienplatz and the surrounding streets are pedestrianised, there hasn't been a procession through there for well over 30 years. The parade was revived two years ago, however it doesn't go through Marienplatz, but starts at Odeonsplatz (about half a kilometer away and much easier to pronounce!!)before going west to Stiglmaier Platz (where the Löwenbräu brewery is, for anyone who knows Munich).
(Also, the parade was on Sunday, 11th February, more than a week before Faschingsdienstag, but perhaps I'm getting too picky now. Faschingsdienstag is celebrated by getting very drunk on Viktualienmarkt....)
But really, if you want to celebrate Karneval, go to Cologne! Munich can't even begin to compete, whatever the Bavarians would have you belive.
Now I've got a question - when did Siobhan move to Munich? I thought she was still in Brussels. I will have to keep my eyes peeled for an Irish Siren with small boy in tow... -
Message 24
Posted by Peggy Monahan (U2254875) on Wednesday, 28th February 2007
I don't think she ever lived in Brussels. She's been in Germany some time - long enough to have had one apparently stable partner there who's now gone.
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Message 25
Posted by JennyDarling Long Gone (U250754) on Wednesday, 28th February 2007
I thought Shove only did Hungarian Translations!!
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Message 26
Posted by barwick_green (U2668006) on Thursday, 1st March 2007
Isn't not having a strong foreign accent part of being a professional linguist, though...?>
And there was me thinking that Brian admired Shove because she was such a cunning linguist. -
Message 27
Posted by Axel Berger (U2090590) on Wednesday, 7th March 2007
Well let me put my tuppence in as a native German:
1) Karneval or Fasching is celebrated in all mainly catholic areas, Cologne and Bavaria being two of them.
2) "Grüß Gott" is a southern dialect greeting, i.e. Bavaria, Austria and Switzerland.
3) I too found Siobhan's accent bad and artificial, not at all like the discernable residue in people having lived here for some time.
But something else:
When the taxi rang she answered as "Horsecoft" or something. Isn't her name still Hathaway?
Axel -
Message 28
Posted by Axel Berger (U2090590) on Wednesday, 7th March 2007
> (The Tuesday is the big party day, but as it's not worth going into work for just one day, most people take the Monday as a "bridge" day.)
Huh? Maybe in Munich, dunno, but certainly not in Cologne. Here it's back to school on Tuesday morning, only the Monday is a day off.
> And although you definitely say "Grüß Gott" here, rather than "Guten Tag", it's unusual to say it into your intercom as Siobhan did. "Hallo" or "Ja bitte?" would be more normal.
I don't know when exactly she's supposed to have said "Grüß Gott", but absolutely NOT when answering the intercom. I've listened to my recording several times. And although we are now copying bad English and American ways it is still very impolite to answer anything, phone, intercom, whatever, with anything but your name. Young louts may use "Hallo", but decent people never.
> when did Siobhan move to Munich?
As far as I remember she has been there all the time and nowhere else in Germany. (Yes, I know Brussel's in Belgium. Has she gone there before coming to Germany?)
Axel -
Message 29
Posted by ExTAlistener (U3058291) on Wednesday, 7th March 2007
No reason at all, of course - but isn't the unconscious assumption here that someone as good at accurately acquiring a given spoken accent will want to get rid of their strong regional accent in English...? -
Message 30
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Thursday, 8th March 2007
Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:42 GMT, in reply to Axel Berger in message 27
I rather thought the Swiss German greeting wasn't Grüss Gott, but Grützi. I cannot ever remember hearing Grüss Gott in any of the Swiss German towns/cantons I visit (Basel, Bern, Zürich, Appenzell) -
Message 31
Posted by Axel Berger (U2090590) on Thursday, 8th March 2007
Yes, E.Yore, you're very probably right. I copied that assumption from classicalstarlet. In our family only Hochdeutsch was spoken and I'm not very good at accents - don't even understand my own native Kölsch if it's put on too strongly - what you mostly get and understand easily is what the Cologne natives themselves call "Hochdeutsch met Knubbelen".
Axel
But I still want to know why Siobhan answered the intercom with "Horsecoft". (My best effort after listening closely again and again - I even slowed it down) -
Message 32
Posted by CetorhinusMaximus (U6804437) on Saturday, 10th March 2007
As a native speaker of German, I can assure you that Shove does not actually speak German at all. She just makes unintelligible noises containing lots of consonants. It's like the SW's assume that those listening couldn't possibly have had any foreign language education beyond watching reruns of Fawlty Towers...
As for "Gruess Gott" - that's what people say in Bavaria. It's worth pointing out that it's the same people that do those weird dances in Lederhosen, and strap their bosoms into those strange bodices that come with Dirndls.
Where I come from, it's "Guten Tag", all the way, and not a pair of Lederhosen in sight... (though plenty of Birkenstocks-and-white-socks combos). -
Message 33
Posted by Mrs_Compton (U7005434) on Sunday, 11th March 2007
Oh no she doesn't.
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Message 34
Posted by Tetleyhorse (U7411096) on Wednesday, 14th March 2007
<>
"Gruss Gott" is widely used in Austria. When I used to visit, many moons ago, it was more commonly used than "Guten Tag", except in very formal situations.
It's also used in Bavaria, which is where Munich is but I don't know about the rest of Germany. -
Message 35
Posted by aliencorrie (U7290756) on Thursday, 15th March 2007
They say "Grüß Gott" in Baden Württemberg as well, that is the other southern "county" in Germany which borders on Austria, Switzerland and France.
Grüß Gott is said in all southern Germany, Austria and Tyrol. It is short for "Grüße Dich Gott" and is supposed to mean: May God bless you. -
Message 36
Posted by jessporter (U2531565) on Thursday, 15th March 2007
I lived in Baden-Wuerttemberg where an affectionate greeting was "Gruess dich!" which i guess is short for gruess dich Gott..
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Message 37
Posted by Axel Berger (U2090590) on Friday, 16th March 2007
All that still leaves me mystified. Does anyone here really believe she answered "Grüß Gott" on the intercom? If she has any manners at all, she'll have answered it using her name and that's what it sounds like, but who's "Horsecopped"? I have placed the short snippet from my recording here:
Axel -
Message 38
Posted by jessporter (U2531565) on Friday, 16th March 2007
thanks for posting that...
I'm sure it's just Gruss GOTT.. It's not well pronounced and the two words run together, but i don't think it can be anything else! -
Message 39
Posted by mike (U2254029) on Friday, 16th March 2007
I've just listened to Axel's snippet and it sounds like "gruss gott" to me.
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Message 40
Posted by aliencorrie (U7290756) on Friday, 16th March 2007
Just listened to Axel's snippet.
Hilarious.
Methinks the actress is fighting very hard with the "Grüß" bit - and losing. -
Message 41
Posted by Axel Berger (U2090590) on Friday, 16th March 2007
> it sounds like "gruss gott" to me.
Well, if it does to you Brits, then conceivably it might also do to an Irishwoman. All I can say is that Siobhan had better stick strictly to English in all her dealings with Bavarians from Munich, their grasp of that language tends to be quite acceptable on the whole.
Axel
N.B: In "Grüß Gott" the stress is always on the second word and there are far fewer consonants than Siobhan puts into them. -
Message 42
Posted by jessporter (U2531565) on Monday, 19th March 2007
the more i listen to it, the worse it sounds! Let's hope they all stick to English in the future.. Or get a German-speaker in...
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Message 43
Posted by Bleak_Midwinter_Squirrel_Nutcase (U2248205) on Tuesday, 20th March 2007
While I can understand the interest in Siobhán's German here, being a language junkie myself, I do wonder if we aren't showing up a rather negative British characteristic which inhibits us from working at foreign languages? There seems to be an attitude of 'If we can't be perfect, then let's not bother'.
I am half French, brought up with good French but not alas bilingually, so I feel that inhibition especially as a form of guilt. I have to push myself into speaking other languages because I hate making mistakes, but in my European travelling days I tried hard with German and Italian too and always found that people will come to meet you more than half way if you persist.
Similarly, when I encounter non English speakers wanting to speak English, however imperfectly, I bend over backwards to make it comfortable for them. (Our Cambridge charity shop gets a good few Eastern Europeans as well as Romance language and German speakers, so it's often like the Tower of Babel.) I don't mind if they give the wrong greeting or use an odd idiom, if they're smiling nd friendly. I simply feed it back to them unobtrusively in the received form where possible.
Siobhán is, as has been pointed out, a translator (i.e. works with written not spoken texts), not an interpreter, and she clearly has little social life at present to rub off the corners. She's managing perfectly competently in Munich, if sociolinguistically imperfectly (e.g. the wrong greetings; easily possible in the heat of the moment even if you know better, unlike your scriptwriter!). Good on her, sez I (not that I like the woman). Perhaps being Irish liberates her from the usual native English speaking hang-ups about trying to talk furrin'. -
Message 44
Posted by Colin Walls (U201805) on Tuesday, 20th March 2007
TM$G
Good points, but there is another facet. English has a unique characteristic compared with most, if not all, other languages: it will withstand a lot of "damage" and still be intelligible - you can make a lot of errors and still get through. This is also why the language evolves so quickly. You only have to listen to 2 people, for whom English is not their 1st language, using it as a communications aid, to experience this in action.
I have come across French people who think it is amazingly funny and hard to understand if you get the gender of an inanimate object wrong. -
Message 45
Posted by Bleak_Midwinter_Squirrel_Nutcase (U2248205) on Tuesday, 20th March 2007
I don't agree, Colin, sorry. There are a few cases in which getting a gender wrong in French ('le tour' as opposed to 'la tour') can lead to momentary confusion, but most people have the wit and charity to figure it out and carry on, courteously indicating or feeding back the error (and my own people in France were country people undergoing rural emergence, not academics, so it isn't a particularly specialised ability).
With good will you can get by on very little language skill or precision, even if you are personally a linguistic pedant as I am (viz. my dealings with the old Peruvian chappie who comes into our charity shop regularly; we manage fine together, using Romance roots and laughter).
I accept your point about the exceptional adaptability of English (preen, preen, wonderful language, what!).
However my serious major point was that a certain linguistic Puritanism, shyness and refusal of anything but perfection kills off English willingness to engage with foreign languages. (And don't get me started about the educational system tghat administers the death blow.) It would be nice if we could all let go a bit and engage with other languages without embarrassment. Thassorl. $qxx
PS Now you can probably see why I have specialised in dead forms of languages. I would love to chat with Archbishop Wulfstan or Chaucer and see how far we got! -
Message 46
Posted by Colin Walls (U201805) on Tuesday, 20th March 2007
I am sure that you are right about the reaction of most French people to my inept language skills. I guess my bad experiences have tended to be Parisians - taxi drivers in particular.
In my own defence, I just dabble with languages, but I strongly support my daughter who is doing French, German and Spanish to GCSE and will take up Italian next year.
I am pleased that the governement just noticed that a modern language is no longer mandatory and are fixing that. -
Message 47
Posted by Keri Davies (U2219620) on Tuesday, 20th March 2007
>She's managing perfectly competently in Munich, if sociolinguistically imperfectly (e.g. the wrong greetings; easily possible in the heat of the moment even if you know better, unlike your scriptwriter!).
As the scriptwriter in question, I have to jump to my defence here. I can't speak for how it was performed, but I took local advice and this *was* the correct greeting. -
Message 48
Posted by Bleak_Midwinter_Squirrel_Nutcase (U2248205) on Tuesday, 20th March 2007
Sorry, Keri. Nothing personal (didn't know it was you), and if I am factually wrong I apologise (my first-hand information comes from having previously married into Austria rather than Bavaria).
I do however still agree with smallerpig about context: s/he says
And although you definitely say "Grüß Gott" here, rather than "Guten Tag", it's unusual to say it into your intercom as Siobhan did. "Hallo" or "Ja bitte?" would be more normal.Â
It all goes to show context is (almost) everything in linguistic matters; why else are England and America divided by a common language?
Having (albeit briefly) shared (with native local speakers) two flats in Munich with intercoms, I have a bit of form there!
My main point is very positive overall, however: Siobhán is getting on with her life and bashing on with the daily colloquial language pretty successfully (the Kindergarten stuff for example). She is not hampered by the British tendency towards linguistic constipation. As I see it, that's excellent. Heavn knows, I might get to like the woman yet if JD continues to witter on as she is doing (though Brian is a wonderful toad in this triangle: kiss him and you'd get an exotic iguana displaying, not a prince!). $qxx -
Message 49
Posted by Peggy Monahan (U2254875) on Tuesday, 20th March 2007
I do tend to agree that French people are MUCH more likely than Brits to make you feel that you speak French "wrongly" because you are a foreigner.
Afger 25 years here I have an accent, and so do my friends from Toulouse after as long or more in Paris.
I obviously therefore haven't lived in Britain (where I last lived before coming here) for those 25 years but in my day there we would NEVER have made a comment to anybody not a native speaker on how they spoke English, and still less if they spoke fluently albeit with an accent.
Yet I regularly have this experience here and what's worse people don't understand why it's impolite.
It can range from people asking how come I still speak with an accent after so long (so I'm useless at imitation) to assuming that if we're having a general discussion that I'm going to talk about Britain (where I haven't lived for 25 years and isn't really my country anyway!). -
Message 50
Posted by Axel Berger (U2090590) on Sunday, 25th March 2007
> but I took local advice and this *was* the correct greeting
Sorry, but no. Admittedly this nasty Amercanism does take hold more and more, but the only correct way to answer a telephone, the intercom of a multi story block of flats, or anything similar is with your name. And as a professional interpreter Sibobhan is bound to move among well brought up people and not yobboes on the borders of education.
(N.B. I could never get accustomed to otherwise polite English people answering the phone with hello.)
Axel
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