Messageboard
Notes and Queries聽 permalink
The Railways of Borsetshire
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.聽
Posted by Barley Whine (U5508386) on Friday, 12th October 2007
I suspect I ought to raise this question here, having mentioned it in a thread on the "Discuss..." Board.
This map:
clearly shows the old railway line running into Ambridge, past Grange Farm, to the station near Ambridge Farm. It also shows another line branching out to wander onto the Grey Gables estate. It was on this latter "preserved line" that Walter G. suffered the ignominy of a derailment back in the days (1970s) when the SWs were recruited from Coronation St and had to have a new drama every five minutes.
I had always imagined that this was the Blackberry Line whereon Kate went into labour, for instance.
Yet the Archers' own web site maps:
and
show
a) the Blackberry Line being the other side of Hollerton Junction;
b) no trace of the line into Ambridge Station
and
c) no sign of the line on which Walter came a cropper.
Also, I do not recall many references to converted station buildings in the village, old bridges or track beds.
What I want to know is: has there been some deliberate air-brushing of history, or have people simply forgotten an important part of the village's past?
I think we should be told.
Yr affct svnt, with anorak,
LTS -
Message 2
Posted by bob larkin (U2297537) on Friday, 12th October 2007
LTS
I am inclined to agree with you.
The Blackberry Line has been referred to in the last few years (and discused here). It is pretty clear that it is a preserved branch line that is not very close to Ambridge.
At one time Jack Woolley had a preserved railway (now conveniently forgotten) on his land. But this could have been specially laid down, a former quarry line, narrow gauge, anything.
But a branch line to Ambridge itself? I have never heard it mentioned either as a working line or a disused one.
If it existed wouldn't Lynda be trying to preserve the station? Rodway and Watson trying to flog it as a des res?
I suspect that the map you refer to is a mistake.
bob -
Message 3
Posted by mike (U2254029) on Friday, 12th October 2007
Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:49 GMT, in reply to bob larkin in message 2
Ambridge used to have a railway but it was closed in about 1920 I think. -
Message 4
Posted by Ex Tram Driver (U5244457) on Friday, 12th October 2007
You might care to look at these threads from last year, discussing, among other things, Borsetshire railways:
F2693942?thread=3639470
F2693942?thread=3589721&skip=0&show=20
Summarising, it appears that the branch line to Ambridge did exist but was closed as long ago as 1917, presumably due to lack of traffic; the rails were presumably shipped out to France for use on the Western Front.
Yes, there was a line in the Country Park (which was standard gauge) and which replaced by the Blackberry Line, which runs south from Hollerton Junction.
Of course, the movements of the tectonic plates in the Ambridge area over the last twenty years * have completely hidden the traces of the old railway by now...
XTD
* Paraphrasing Mark Twain, there are three types of lies, "Lies, Statistics and maps of Ambridge" -
Message 5
Posted by RosieT (U2224719) on Friday, 12th October 2007
Oh, well done, Extra! Thank you - I knew it was there somewhere.
Just logged on to find your lovely threads, searched and foud, and then found you'd done it! -
Message 6
Posted by bob larkin (U2297537) on Friday, 12th October 2007
IRL very few railways closed as long ago as 1917 or 1920.
OTOH if it did close that long ago it is perfectly feasible that the land has returned to agriculture so that there has been no trace of it for years. It depends on the topography. The map does does noyt indicate deep cuttings or such.
OTOH if that is the case then no one would remember it or have cause to talk about it.
bob -
Message 7
Posted by Vicarshusband (U6051871) on Friday, 12th October 2007
My wife's family farm used to have a railway line across it (the Witney to Carterton line). That was Beechinged, so closed much more recently than the Ambridget branch, and it's pretty hard to spot now unless you know (the bridges of course are the giveaway).
I think that some lines were closed in the 1920s - or closed to passengers, and later to freight - it's credible anyway. (Probably as credible as Mr Woolley having a standard guage garden railway...)
VH -
Message 8
Posted by bob larkin (U2297537) on Friday, 12th October 2007
< think that some lines were closed in the 1920s>
True, but they tended to be in the north. In my area (South Midlands) no lines were closed before 1939 (with one odd exception that did stay open for freight until 1950s).
Sorry to be an anorak over all this, but I think the railway situation is a bit of a nonsense.
The earlier threads are excellent in showing the 鈥渨hat鈥 but not the 鈥渨hy鈥.
I know that railways were sometimes promoted with an optimism bordering on recklessness; I know they sometimes ended in a field, but the Borsetshire scene does not add up.
(i) What is the 鈥淛ack Woolley鈥 line there for? It is a branch line off a branch line. Such things exist but only for a purpose. It could be an industrial line/siding, but to where? No industry, quarry, mine, MOD depot in Ambridge. The nearest quarries were for ironstone at Banbury and Edge Hill.
(ii) Hollerton Junction is credible as the junction station for branches to Upper Croft (!) and presumably Ambridge (not shown but it must have gone there). Hollerton Junction would probably still be open as a railhead for the area (as Kingham is for the Chipping Norton, Stow on the Wold area IRL).
(iii) But why build these branches? Both go to very small places. In particular the Ambridge line is very short. Why build a line to Ambridge and yet leave Borchester rail-free? The line only needed to be extended along the Am valley for a few miles. Did the money run out leaving the terminus at the small village of Ambridge? Or was the squire on the board of the railway company and pull strings?
(iv) Another possibility: the 鈥淛ack Woolley鈥 line could have continued to Borchester. This would have involved a reversal on the short journey from Hollerton Junction to Borchester, but such things are not unknown.
Perhaps a book such as 鈥淎 history of the railways of South Borsettshire鈥 can be written/found/invented to explain all.
bob -
Message 9
Posted by Vicarshusband (U6051871) on Friday, 12th October 2007
I'm working entirely from memory here but I think the Woolley line originally led to a quarry. What they were quarrying I have no idea.
VH -
Message 10
Posted by Spartacus (U38364) on Friday, 12th October 2007
Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:51 GMT, in reply to Vicarshusband in message 9
They were digging what has become the old abandoned mineshaft just off the village green. -
Message 11
Posted by bob larkin (U2297537) on Friday, 12th October 2007
Interesting.
A quarry would make sense (but what mineral is being quarried - building stone doesn't normally have railways).
But this could lead to mining. So the disused mineshaft on Lakey Hill is not a myth.
bob -
Message 12
Posted by U9303309 (U9303309) on Friday, 12th October 2007
I think it possible at least the railway line to Ambridge was a private line originally funded by the Lawson Hopes of Ambridge. Such lesser squires would not normally have ahd their own railway line but if they were enthusiastic enough I suppose they might have done.
I never did hear what happened to the Country Park steam train or the railway that was presumably the old line resurrected. Nobody, except poor old Jack himself seems to believe in its continued existence. -
Message 13
Posted by Barley Whine (U5508386) on Saturday, 13th October 2007
I think it possible at least the railway line to Ambridge was a private line originally funded by the Lawson Hopes of Ambridge.聽
Possible, but it would likely have been swallowed up, either by the GWR or one of the constituents of the LMS quite early on.
It is strange. I've always considered Borchester to be the principle local town, with a Cathedral and all, and I'm struggling to think of such a place that didn't have a railway of some sort. It would have been typical GW practice to build a stubby little branch from Hollerton, with just one passing place at Ambridge.
On top of that, without a railway, Borchester was likely to have gone into relative decline cf its neighbour Felpersham which was so blessed, and with a through line. But it seems as though Borchester didn't decline; so where was the railway? -
Message 14
Posted by spoilerfan (U8369126) on Saturday, 13th October 2007
I've always considered Borchester to be the principle local town, with a Cathedral and all聽
The Cathedral is in Felpersham, not Borchester.
Felpersham is the county town of Borsetshire. Borchester is 'just' a market town.
I'm sure this very little difference to railways, though. -
Message 15
Posted by RosieT (U2224719) on Saturday, 13th October 2007
"The team locamotive 'Borset' as built for the ill-fated branch line between Borchester and Hollerton Junction, which was completed in 1892 and designed to join Borchester to the Great Western line. The branch line was never priofitable and was closed in 1917."
Caption to photo, page 100, "Ambridge An English Village through the Ages" Aldridge and Tregorran 1982
Hollerton
A large village three miles south of Ambridge on the B3980. Hollerton was the rival village to Ambridge in the eighteenth century:
The Hasset boys are very good boys,
The Hollerton boys are better,
The Ambridge boys can stand on one leg
And kick them in the gutter.
The prosperity and growth of Hollerton in the nineteenth century was due to the arrival of the greatr Wstern Railway which connected to the local Midland line at Hollerton Junction. The small village grew rapidly, and Hollerton Free Trade Hl stands as a memorial to those expansionist times."
"Holleron Junction
Just over 2 miles south of Ambridge, Hollerton Junction is on the Inter-city Hereford-Paddington line. Trains usually take around two hours ten minutes to reach London, although the introduction of faster 125 trains in 1984 has provided one slightly speedier 'up' and 'down' train each day. There used to be a splendid restaurant car on the 8.06 am and 9.06 trsins to London, but this service was scandalously withdrwn some years ago."
"Felpersham
A city, about the size of Worcester, some seventeen miles from Ambridge. Felpersham has a repetory theatre, Crown Court, large department stores and some fine dhops, including Laura Ashley, Austin Reed, and Habitat."
"The archers The New Official Companion" Wm Smethurst 1987
Felpersham is the county town, with the cathedral (and the "fine shops" !) but Borchester is "a market town of some 15,000 inhabitants." -
Message 16
Posted by Barley Whine (U5508386) on Saturday, 13th October 2007
I stand corrected ... ta.
But I still reckon there should be remnants in Ambridge, and the question of which line was preserved remains a lttle indistinct.
I know: details, details. -
Message 17
Posted by mike (U2254029) on Saturday, 13th October 2007
Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:09 GMT, in reply to Longtallsilly in message 16
Jack Woolley built his own railway, I think. He wasn't preserving anything (apart fron the engine and rolling stock). -
Message 18
Posted by bob larkin (U2297537) on Saturday, 13th October 2007
Rosie
It makes sense that the branch line went to Borchester. But then why is it not shown on the map that shows the old railway as going to Ambridge but no further? Surely not a mistake?
And closure in 1917 does seem very early. Just look at similar short GWR "dead end" branches (Abingdon 1963, Lambourn 1960, Faringdon 1951, Shipston 1929, Blenheim 1954, Wallingford 1959).
Apart from Jack's little railway has an Ambridge railway ever been mentioned?
BTW I was intrigued to see that Hollerton Junction is actually on the Hereford to Worcester line. We guessed it must be, but this is RL and TA uncomfortably close.
bob -
Message 19
Posted by Mabel Bagshawe (U2222589) on Saturday, 13th October 2007
Sat, 13 Oct 2007 18:54 GMT, in reply to bob larkin in message 18
Except on the one time Adam came back on the train from Euston! -
Message 20
Posted by Ex Tram Driver (U5244457) on Saturday, 13th October 2007
Except on the one time Adam came back on the train from Euston! 聽
I remember that, Mabel! Left at 9.17 iirc, which I recall because I thought 'the normal train leaving at that time calls all stations to Watford Junction' at the time (sad, I know)...
Bob
The Great Western (among others) made a major reduction in train services on January 1st, 1917, closing a number of lines at the same time, some of these permanently. This was at the (strongly worded) request of the War Department. The closed lines were taken up and sent to France; several never reopened after the war.
It is possible that the quarry branch served an ironstone quarry; as George Fairbrother found ironstone under the estate in 1951 it is possible that the branch served a different (but unsuccessful) quarry.
XTD -
Message 21
Posted by Tolkny (U710741) on Monday, 11th August 2008
They were digging what has become the old abandoned mineshaft just off the village green. 聽 Did Captain ever effect a rescue in the manner of Lassie?
-
Message 22
Posted by Spartacus (U38364) on Monday, 11th August 2008
Mon, 11 Aug 2008 16:14 GMT, in reply to Old Ambridgonian in message 21
Captain's barking stopped Shula falling down the mineshaft. That's why he /had/ /to/ /go/... [Cue "Doom Music"] -
Message 23
Posted by GT49er (U1745246) on Tuesday, 12th August 2008
Sorry, no disrespect to anyone, but this thread is a complete waste of time. It is a well-known and incontrovertable fact that SW's, producers, continuity people, etc. have a complete blind spot where railways are concerned, whether in films, books (Dorothy L. Sayers being the honourable exception here), radio, TV.
Jack Woolley's railway (on an old branch line) was fatuously introduced in the 70's with no thought as to its rationale / history, was forgotten about and never mentioned again (the Scotsman and his daughter than Jeck imported to run it conveniently disappeared too - doubtless the village shop then as now was for loxcal people only and they starved to death).
So, any attempt to apply any logic / geography / history to the Ambridge railway is futile; there never was any. Best just forget about it -
Message 24
Posted by Afan Argoll (U11565445) on Wednesday, 13th August 2008
However, what about the Fratton to Southsea line, closing in 1914....? (and that in a much-more built up area.....) -
Message 25
Posted by Afan Argoll (U11565445) on Wednesday, 13th August 2008
Hang on - weren't they from Yorkshire or somewhere - and didn't Angela run a hairdresser's rather than a railway....? They ran the village shop too of course, so may have been an exception in having access to it..... -
Message 26
Posted by RosieT (U2224719) on Wednesday, 13th August 2008
<-timto Afan Argoll in message 25
Stan Cooper was a retired engine driver from the Black Country, who came to run the Village Shop with his daughter, Angela, who also cut hair. She married Haydn Evans son, (Gwyn?) and emigrated to Canada.
Maybe Pat could be in touch with them, and find (guess what's coming) they live next to Mildred? -
Message 27
Posted by Ex Tram Driver (U5244457) on Wednesday, 13th August 2008
Re - closure in 1917.
The GWR picked out a number of underused lines which they could close to release resources for the war effort - 36 stations and 41 halts being the official figure. It is quit likely that a branch like Hollerton to Ambridge would be high on such a hit list, particularly if all the quarries were closed at the time. Some of the lines never reopened after the war.
Fratton to Southsea closed in 1914 due to competition from the (more direct) Portsmouth Corporation Tramways!
XTD -
Message 28
Posted by Spartacus (U38364) on Wednesday, 13th August 2008
Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:43 GMT, in reply to Ex Tram Driver in message 27
That'd be about when they abandoned the old mineshaft, then. -
Message 29
Posted by bob larkin (U2297537) on Wednesday, 13th August 2008
But that wasn't a GWR branch (rather LSWR: different companies operated in different ways) and, as extramdriver points out, urban routes (including London) closed very early in some cases because of bus/tram competition.
bob -
Message 30
Posted by Afan Argoll (U11565445) on Thursday, 14th August 2008
Oh I see.....
There were tram routes in rural areas to, weren't there - eg Wantage, though that was to connect with GWR rather than competing.....?
About this Board
Welcome to the Archers Messageboard.
or 聽to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
This messageboard is now closed.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
麻豆官网首页入口 iD
麻豆官网首页入口 navigation
麻豆官网首页入口 links
麻豆官网首页入口 漏 2014 The 麻豆官网首页入口 is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.