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What are the benefits to Emma's children of Clive having access to them?

• Message 1. 

  Posted by A Frend (U2249422) on Thursday, 13th October 2011

  Hi Tayler
  
  I'm puzzled as to why the Prod Team thinks it's beneficial for Emma's children to spend time with Clive. I also wonder why not one character has been written as saying that what Ivy wants or what Clive wants is irrelevant and that the children must not to be put in contact with a man who's "capable of anything" and who according to the story so far has:
  
  burned down a house with two people in it
  slashed horses
  held people hostage at least twice
  robbed a shop at gunpoint
  
  Can you ask them to say if they actually think that Clive has rights here and if so what they are and why they trump those of children?
  
  I'd be very grateful for an answer. In real life there’s not a sane person alive who’d allow Clive access to children now, relatives or not, and I wonder if the team actually understands this point.
  

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by mike (U14258103) on Friday, 14th October 2011

  I disagree completely with A Frend's point of view on this.
  
  We had a dodgy character in our family (father's cousin who killed a local gang leader in the street and was acquitted of murder at the Old Bailey). The experience I had of meeting this person when I was a child was a very positive one and it helped me deal later on with the sort of ignorance and prejudice that we are currently seeing from many of the inhabitants of Ambridge.

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by A Frend (U2249422) on Friday, 14th October 2011

  My question still stands. I can't comment on your experience, Mike, I'm asking why no one in this case has considered what is best for the children and only talk of what Clive and Ivy want. Unlike your relative, Clive has been found guilty of several serious offences in the course of one of which he threatened Susan's young children. If he's got his act together now good for him but then as a reformed person he would know and understand the effect of his conduct on others and would not ne making these importunate demands on his sister to put pressure on her daughter to put pressure on her children. And the SWs have not written one adult as saying what benefit is it to the children. That's tosh.

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Reggie Trentham (U2746099) on Friday, 14th October 2011

  And the SWs have not written one adult as saying what benefit is it to the children. 
  
  
  Ivy want's him to see the because he's her son and she wants to indulge him, Clive wants to see them because he's their great uncle, Susan and Emma are letting him see them out of daughterly and grand daughterly feeling for Ivy. Can't remember whether what Neil or any of the Grundys have expressed an opinion , but I'd be willing to bet none of them would be keen on the idea. Then there's David who has expressed his disapproval too.
  
  So who is there who thinks it's a good idea and is in a position to explain its benefits?

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Reggie Trentham (U2746099) on Friday, 14th October 2011

  Just listening to the Thursday repeat and Will doesn't like the idea either.

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by A Frend (U2249422) on Friday, 14th October 2011

  No one, Reggie, has said something like 'I know that Ivy thinks it will be good for Clive but what is good for Clive is not what this is about. It's about what is good for the children. Is it beneficial for them (especially George who might understand a little of what's going on and will certainly pick up the fact that his mother and Granny are afraid of Clive)?'
  
  All the characters I've heard have said that they know that Clive's capable of doing anything and that they don't want the children near him. That should mean that they say a loud no and stick to that. But their next words inevitably are that Ivy wants the meeting and she's got a cough so they are going to force this on the children anyway.
  
  It is inconceivable to me that sane people with responsiblity for children would allow this meeting to happen when they are all against it.
  
  So I'm asking if the SWs understood that the children had the right not to meet this man and whether they just ignored this inconvenience for the SL or whether they just didn't know this and assumed that any adult no matter how distant in lifestyle or relationship has a right to have access to any child. The latter view would be a dangerous misunderstanding I feel.
  
  Tayler, I'd be obliged for any light you canb shed on the thinking behind this SL as it seems strangely flawed.

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by JustJanie - Fairweather Strider (U10822512) on Friday, 14th October 2011

  I agree with all you say, A Frend. I don't see why even the adults concerned should have to see Clive if they don't want to. Giving second chances to people who have served sentences does not mean that the VERY PEOPLE THEY TRAUMATISED (sorry to shout) should feel obliged to let them into their homes.
  
  But at least they ARE adults and did have a choice in the matter.

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Tayler Cresswell - Host (U14232848) on Friday, 14th October 2011

  Hi A Frend
  
  I'm puzzled as to why the Prod Team thinks it's beneficial for Emma's children to spend time with Clive. I also wonder why not one character has been written as saying that what Ivy wants or what Clive wants is irrelevant and that the children must not to be put in contact with a man who's "capable of anything" 
  
  I'm not sure that the team are putting forward the point that it's beneficial for George and Kiera to see Clive - Emma and Susan have both expressed doubts about the children seeing Clive, but feel that they ought to for Ivy's sake.
  
  From the synopsis:
  Emma receives a call from Susan. Clive wants to meet Keira and George. Susan doesn't want this any more than Emma does, but Ivy wants it to happen. Susan knows she's going to be really upset if Emma says no.  
  
  Tayler

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by A Frend (U2249422) on Friday, 14th October 2011

  "I'm not sure that the team are putting forward the point that it's beneficial for George and Kiera to see Clive - Emma and Susan have both expressed doubts about the children seeing Clive, but feel that they ought to for Ivy's sake. "
  
  But that's my point, Tayler. If the don't think it's beneficial then it should not happen. The children - if they were real - have rights which Clive, Ivy and the whole of the village are violating. I can see that, but what worries me is that the Prod Team doesn't seem to.
  
  
  
  
  

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by cath (U2234232) on Saturday, 15th October 2011

  One other point that confuses me is that Susan doesn't want her mum to be upset and yet the reason Susan ended up going to prison was because she helped Cloive and the reason she helped Cloive was because he threatened to hurt Emma and Christyfer.
  
  If I were Susan, knowing my brother had threatened the wellbeing of my own children, I think I would explain to my mum that there's no reason to be certain that he wouldn't threaten my grandchildren if he wanted something in future. And that, so soon after his return from prison for some very nasty and violent acts it would be foolish to trust him.

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 2.

  This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.

• Message 12

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by sunnysakasredux (U14979019) on Saturday, 15th October 2011

  I disagree completely with A Frend's point of view on this.
  
  We had a dodgy character in our family (father's cousin who killed a local gang leader in the street and was acquitted of murder at the Old Bailey). The experience I had of meeting this person when I was a child was a very positive one and it helped me deal later on with the sort of ignorance and prejudice that we are currently seeing from many of the inhabitants of Ambridge.  I think victims of crime are perfectly within their rights to not care about whether or not the person who committed the crime against them has changed and now repents. It is not ignorant or prejudice that is being displayed with regard to Clive. Clive is dangerous and in real life would not be allowed near Ambridge. This storyline is stupid 'cos Neil has been excluded from the decision making process. I do not believe Neil would have allowed Clive near his grandchildren.
  Nearly immolating elderly people and slashing horses. My only hope is Hellin gets drunk again and runs him down. Two nasty characters gone in one go.
  I think this is a poor storyline. I don't see Clive as a worthy candidate for Ambridge's truth and reconciliation committee.
  He is a psycho thug.
  Tayler please ask the s/ws why Neil was excluded from the decision making process.
  thanksx

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• Message 13

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by A Frend (U2249422) on Saturday, 15th October 2011

  "Tayler please ask the s/ws why Neil was excluded from the decision making process."
  
  Perhaps Neil would have been the one to say 'what is the benefit to my grandchildren of seeing this man? None, therefore I don't think we should put pressure on Emma, Will and Ed to put their children in his way. Ivy wants it but tough luck she's not getting it.' Just one person saying it would have helped.
  
  
  

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• Message 14

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by alanis (U2256129) on Sunday, 16th October 2011

  
  Yes, this is the bit that makes it unbelievable to me - if my children had been threatened by their uncle, I would certainly not be pushing for him to see them again as adults, unless they themselves really wanted to.
  
  So the notion that I'd try to get them to introduce their children to this same man, who is after all only a great-uncle, against their will, is utterly ridiculous.
  
  It only makes sense in an East-Enders "fambly" kind of way - and is imo only there to lead to some outlandish plot development again.
  
  I hope I'm wrong.

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• Message 15

  , in reply to message 14.

  Posted by alanis (U2256129) on Sunday, 16th October 2011

  Sorry, forgot to quote the "bit" I meant - it was about Clive having threatened Emma and Christopher to get Susan to cooperate, in case that wasn't clear.

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• Message 16

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by barwick_green (U2668006) on Sunday, 16th October 2011

  < the sort of ignorance and prejudice that we are currently seeing from many of the inhabitants of Ambridge >
  
  Please let me get this right Mike, and please feel free to correct me, any poster who is against Clive meeting his (very) young nieces and nephews are displaying ignorance and prejudice?
  
  Let's remember that Clive has spent much of his adult life in jail for
  perverted, vindictive and violent crimes. These were pre-planned and often with murderous intent (malice aforethought used to be the legal phrase).
  
  This pathetic specimen of manhood mutilated horses and set fire to a house with the intention of burning the occupants to death simply because he had an irrational grudge towards one of the occupants. A weak willed thief who rather than earn an honest penny was stupid enough to take a loaded shotgun into his local shop hoping to steal a few hundred pounds but botched that because of his own lack of planning.
  
  Yet, as any sane minded person would do in real life, anyone who stated that it's not a good idea for this recidivistic nutcase to meet extremely young and impressionable children (and meeting them for no good reason other than a demented mother's wish) is displaying ignorance and prejudice is astounding. Clive has never shown any remorse, apology or regret for his many crimes so why should anyone have any sympathy for him?
  
  If, for example, Peter Sutcliffe (the Yorkshire Ripper) or Ian Brady (Moors Murderer) had been your brother would you be happy for them to meet your pre-teen children? Would you Mike?
  
  

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• Message 17

  , in reply to message 16.

  Posted by mike (U14258103) on Sunday, 16th October 2011

  The crimes performed by Clive are not at all comparable with the crimes by Brady or Sutcliffe who were psychopaths who will never be released.
  
  Clive has served much shorter sentences which are commensurate with the seriousness of the crimes he has committed. Obviously nobody would defend Clive's attempt to kill George, but all his attempts at crime were botched and spectacularly unsuccessful. Since leaving prison he has shown no signs of returning to his previously criminal ways and (if he were my brother) I would be happy for him to visit my family.

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• Message 18

  , in reply to message 16.

  Posted by Spartacus (U38364) on Sunday, 16th October 2011

  A weak willed thief who rather than earn an honest penny was stupid enough to take a loaded shotgun into his local shop hoping to steal a few hundred pounds but botched that because of his own lack of planning. 
  
  Perhaps they plan to set Cloive up as the next Nelson?

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• Message 19

  , in reply to message 17.

  Posted by sunnysakasredux (U14979019) on Sunday, 16th October 2011

  The crimes performed by Clive are not at all comparable with the crimes by Brady or Sutcliffe who were psychopaths who will never be released.
  
  Clive has served much shorter sentences which are commensurate with the seriousness of the crimes he has committed. Obviously nobody would defend Clive's attempt to kill George, but all his attempts at crime were botched and spectacularly unsuccessful. Since leaving prison he has shown no signs of returning to his previously criminal ways and (if he were my brother) I would be happy for him to visit my family.  Clive didn't perform crimes he committed them in a radio soap.
  So horse torturing which resulted in the death of one of the horses isn't a serious crime? Trying to immolate someone isn't a serious crime?
  Clive's crimes were serious. There is tons of research to prove that lots of sadistic killers start out by torturing animals including people like Brady. Plus you would be entitled to forgive your brother but that doesn't mean victims of crimes have to forgive the person who committed the crime.
  Clive is a sadistic nasty piece of work who served a long sentence because of the severity of the crimes.

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• Message 20

  , in reply to message 17.

  Posted by cath (U2234232) on Sunday, 16th October 2011

  >Since leaving prison he has shown no signs of returning to his previously criminal ways and (if he were my brother) I would be happy for him to visit my family.<
  
  I think that's very open minded of you Mike. The fact that Cloive has been out of prison for no more than a couple of weeks makes your viewpoint even braver.
  
  Personally, if I were to expose my young children/grandchildren/any children to someone who had behaved with such consistent levels of violence over the years and specifically threatened young children, I'd want a bit more certainty that he'd left his violent tendencies behind him. But each to their own (and good luck).

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• Message 21

  , in reply to message 20.

  Posted by alanis (U2256129) on Tuesday, 18th October 2011

  Since leaving prison he has shown no signs of returning to his previously criminal ways and (if he were my brother) I would be happy for him to visit my family. 
  I think that's very open minded of you Mike. 
  And also a bit disingenuous I think. Clive hasn't been openly violent since leaving prison all of - what? one month ago, that's true. But his insistence on seeing his grand-niece and grand nephew when he never took any interest in his real niece and nephew, and indeed threatened to kill them when it suited him can hardly be a sign of remorse, imo.
  
  He'd have been less ruthless about what he wanted (the photo etc) if that was what it was was about. It was clear he was well aware they didn't want him there, and he was making a show of force which was imo, filled with deliberate menace.

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