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Business rates - Taylor, why are Chris and Alice

• Message 1. 

  Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Tuesday, 3rd April 2012

  making themselves liable when they don't have to, please?
  
  When they originally planned to acquire the forge, I talked to my own farrier about the SL - he now operates, like all the other farriers I know, out of the back of a van.
  
  He said that you wouldn't need premises until you had an apprentice, and you wouldn't usually be able to afford an apprentice until you had at least two other farriers working for you , and the main reason why farriers didn't own there own forge was that it rendered them liable for business rates.
  
  As Chris and Alice are portrayed as so strapped for cash that they have to (scandalising Jenny) buy "value" foods, why are they letting themselves in for this unnecessary expense, especially as they aren't planning to live there?

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Spartacus (U38364) on Tuesday, 3rd April 2012

  , especially as they aren't planning to live there? 
  
  If the forge has lodgings attached, perhaps they /do/ plan to live there and rent out Alice's cottage?

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Tuesday, 3rd April 2012

  The cottage is Alice's, then?
  
  (Walks off, whistling tunelessly...)

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Organoleptic Icon (U11219171) on Tuesday, 3rd April 2012

  The cottage is Alice's, then? 
  
  ??
  
  Yes - Alice and Kate got one each. It was either inheritance tax planning or making them unavailable for staff use - or both?
  
  Incidentally in MY Archers Kate uses the income of hers to pay maintenance for Pebble.

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Spartacus (U38364) on Tuesday, 3rd April 2012

  If that is the plan, it's a shame that Soozan's sister moved in with their dad - that would have been a perfect set of Horrobins to let the cottage to.

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Tuesday, 3rd April 2012

  It's not totally unambiguous (like a lot of things in TA)
  
  Ownership of Alices cottage query, please, Tayler.
  

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Tayler Cresswell - Host (U14232848) on Wednesday, 4th April 2012

  Hi carrick
  
  I'll check back as I'm sure this came up at the time Chris was thinking of buying the forge.
  
  Alice and Chris have been tightening their belts in order to save money for Chris's business. It's not that they don't have the money, just that they're saving it instead of spending it.
  
  Tayler

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Wednesday, 4th April 2012

  Evening, Tayler!
  
  I raised the issue myself, in #36 of the "Why buy the forge?" thread, last August,
  
  as my farrier, when I asked him what he thought of the SL, made several good points, including "
  Also he made the really good point that, if you took over a forge, you'd have to pay business rates on it, if it was going to be used for business purposes, which is why most people work from the back of a van".
  
  There was nothing else said about it.

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by Organoleptic Icon (U11219171) on Wednesday, 4th April 2012

  Also he made the really good point that, if you took over a forge, you'd have to pay business rates on it, if it was going to be used for business purposes, which is why most people work from the back of a van". 
  
  Though the business rates on a small forge would be low - and probably 100% waived at the moment.

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by Tayler Cresswell - Host (U14232848) on Thursday, 5th April 2012

  Hi Carrick
  
  I've found the response I had last year
  
  Chris doesn't necessarily need a premises to work as a farrier, many farriers just have a mobile forge in the back of a van. If Christopher is ambitious - and he is, he will in due course want to take on an apprentice of his own, to do this he needs an actual premises. Also Ronnie is retiring and selling the business, goodwill etc, if Christopher doesn't buy it then someone else probably will. Chris thinks this may be a good opportunity to establish himself more fully in the area where he lives. 
  
  Whether folk here think that's the right move or not is another matter!
  
  Tayler

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Thursday, 5th April 2012

  Thanks for responding, Tayler. Could you possibly reference that information?
  
  I'll quote in full the post I referenced earlier in this thread -
  "I'll quote in full what fatshetlandpony -
  
  1) Chris is far too wet behind the ears to become a training farrier. You can't just decide to do it you have to fulfill conditions & become an Approved Training Farrier.
  
  2) There is a good reason training farriers are in short supply - VAT. A lone farrier will normally have turnover below the limit for VAT registration. It's a trade that is largely time based, the other costs being a van, blank shoes & fuel. As soon as a farrier takes on an apprentice they have to push the turnover over the VAT threshhold or starve. Once they have to charge VAT on the fee for each shoeing they become way over priced against the lone farriers unless they can offer a specialised service. Because the non labour costs are comparatively low they have little scope for reducing costs by claiming back input VAT. If a farrier put their costs up from say �65 to �75 for a full set when other decent farriers were charging �65 he would lose custom very, very fast.
  
  3) It is unusual for a farrier to stay employed by his training farrier after qualification for the same reasons as above.
  We have to assume that Chris's employer had a good reputation for specialist farriery & his apprentice would do some of the basic work possibly at a lower cost for his business to work. There would be little incentive for him to keep Chris on after qualification.
  
  4) Few training farriers have a forge. Forging certificates are normally gained as part of a college course. It is possible that an ATF could teach the forging vert, but very few do unless thye happen to have a forge - not worth buying one to do.
  
  5) Expecting a farrier to do wrought ironwork is akin to expecting a brain surgeon to do a heart transplant. Both highly skilled but different aptitudes & experience within the same framework of skills.
  
  6) Although some very skilled blacksmiths can make good money on wrought ironwork commissions they are few & far between & they are real specialists. Most of the wrought ironwork you see in retail outlets will have been mass produced in a low wage country.
  
  MoorlandMinx,
  I do not know of any farriers who have static forges now - they all work out of their vans. It is a highly skilled and highly regulated profession but a farrier does not require premises just a van and perhaps somewhere to store stock, gas canisters etc and do his books.
  
  
  and Dockersdaughter
  This storyline is driving me crazy! Chris does not need to buy goodwill. Ronnie retires and some of his customers use Chris instead. That is what usually happens. My husband had an apprentice a few years ago. When he qualified he was 'given' some customers to get him started.
  
  I keep telling myself not to listen but I keep dipping back in.
  Do none of the SWs know anyone who owns a horse?
  
  say, because it's accurate information.
  
  I had my horse shod this afternoon, and, as promised, asked my farrier about the "buying Ronnies list of customers" - as previously discussed on this MB, he confirmed that that just doesn't happen. He did say "Chris might have built up a good relationship with some of the clients he already shoes for, so they might be happy to stay worth him after Ronnie retires, but it's not like buying a milk round".
  
  He says that premises are useful when you have an apprentice, but that most people wouldn't have the time and money to take on one unless they have a couple of farriers working for them anyway.
  
  Also he made the really good point that, if you took over a forge, you'd have to pay business rates on it, if it was going to be used for business purposes, which is why most people work from the back of a van.
  
  (BTW he says that he used to fancy Shula "when she was sweet and virginal") "
  
  As you can see, we are very "up to speed" with farriery, but contest the "selling the business and goodwill, etc" and the "needing premises in the near future".

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