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A question for Tayler. Milking.
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Seveek (U13636812) on Sunday, 3rd June 2012
Dear Tayler,
ayrshire-cowman says of Brookfield in Post 10 on this thread:
‘It is wholly unrealistic for a herd of 180 cows to be run by one individual’.
I tend to disagree but I think it depends on what type of parlour they have; if it can do 20 cows at a time, probably on a carousel, it would take Ruth about 4.5 hours morning and night which she probably could manage and explains why she is always so busy. I used the recognised standard for milk time per cow and added an allowance for cluster changing, parlour preparation and post-milking cleaning.
She might possibly manage 15 at a time in 5 hours but that’s a 10 hour day. However, anything fewer than 15 and she would have to work nonstop from dusk to dawn.
I would appreciate it if you would get Mr Peacock to advise what sort of system they have to enable one person to milk that number of cows.
However, it was Mr Harvey when Ruth decided she could do it on her own, accepting Eddie 2 days a week, so he may be better placed to explain the rational, or otherwise.
Thank you,
Ian -
Message 2
Posted by Tayler Cresswell - Host (U14232848) on Sunday, 3rd June 2012
Hi Ian
I'll pass on your question as I'm not sure what the details are of the Brookfield set up.
Will post back here when I get a response
Tayler -
Message 3
Posted by Reggie Trentham (U2746099) on Sunday, 3rd June 2012
Does Eddie not do some of the afternoon milking? How otherwise does Ruth manage to meet Josh and Ben from school?
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Message 4
Posted by Seveek (U13636812) on Sunday, 3rd June 2012
It’s all a mystery until Tayler get’s an answer Reggie, although she probably would not start until the cows come home so may have time to meet them.
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Message 5
Posted by Mustafa Grumble (U8596785) on Wednesday, 6th June 2012
‘It is wholly unrealistic for a herd of 180 cows to be run by one individual’.Ìý
Absolutely right.
There is more to running a herd than simply plugging them into a milking machine twice a day. The /milking/ might well be manged by just one person on a normal farm where not all the cows are in milk at the same time, but when Brokefailed is on to its "hallelujah - we are saved" regime, that will not be possible.
Once the cows are milked - twice - the parlour and dairy will need to be washed down, the yard scraped, feed mixed for the next session etc etc.
You would have to live in a completely unreal world where agricultural realities (&, say, equine anatomical detail) do not apply, for such a system to work.
Ooops. As you were, then. -
Message 6
Posted by Organoleptic Icon (U11219171) on Wednesday, 6th June 2012
IIRC BF has a mechanical scraper. Wasn't it broken?
What % of a normal herd is milking at any one time? -
Message 7
Posted by Tayler Cresswell - Host (U14232848) on Thursday, 7th June 2012
Hi Ian
I've had a response from Steve Peacock, our Agricutural Advisor:
Ruth works hard but we don't suggest she runs her 180 cow herd single-handed. David helps out to give her the occasional lie-in, Eddie regularly does the afternoon milking and Josh is increasingly interested in taking his turn in the milking parlour, especially when extra pocket money is involved. That said, milking cows takes time and is hard and relentless work. It is a good job Ruth is so passionate about her herd. Ìý
Tayler -
Message 8
Posted by Organoleptic Icon (U11219171) on Thursday, 7th June 2012
What % of a normal herd is milking at any one time?Ìý
As no-one is telling me I looked it up!
Seems non-milk for 2 months a year, so 150 of their 180 herd at a time. -
Message 9
Posted by barwick_green (U2668006) on Saturday, 9th June 2012
Hi Ian
I've had a response from Steve Peacock, our Agricutural Advisor:
Ruth works hard but we don't suggest she runs her 180 cow herd single-handed. David helps out to give her the occasional lie-in, Eddie regularly does the afternoon milking and Josh is increasingly interested in taking his turn in the milking parlour, especially when extra pocket money is involved. That said, milking cows takes time and is hard and relentless work. It is a good job Ruth is so passionate about her herd. Ìý
Tayler
Ìý I don't think the original point has been answered Tayler/Steve ('It is wholly unrealistic for a herd of 180 cows to be run by one individual’.)
As I see it the question is that it would take at least two people at any one time to carry out the entire operation; one to do the actual milking and another to do post-milking clean up etc. Yes, Ruth has David and Eddoi to substitute but who is the second person in this set up? -
Message 10
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Sunday, 10th June 2012
Once the cows are milked - twice - the parlour and dairy will need to be washed down, the yard scraped, feed mixed for the next session etc etc.
You would have to live in a completely unreal world where agricultural realities (&, say, equine anatomical detail) do not apply, for such a system to work.
Ooops. As you were, then. Ìý
Not to mention the not-routine stuff that happens so often that it is almost a routine; cows feet, udders and other bits, minor stuff that doesn't need the vet, bigger stuff that does, ordering feed, chemicals, fuel, all sorts.
I hadn't realised that Ruths time was so precious - it makes the sweet bucolic scenes and the daytime girlie stuff even more remarkable. What an example to us all! -
Message 11
Posted by Elnora Cornstalk (U5646495) on Sunday, 10th June 2012
It does, carrick; and her role as village counsellor is just remarkable. We are made of lesser stuff.
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Message 12
Posted by Mustafa Grumble (U8596785) on Monday, 11th June 2012
Seems non-milk for 2 months a year, so 150 of their 180 herd at a time.Ìý
Saw a friend at w/end whose family have a 200-head herd (excluding calves/bullocks/heifers) and who have recently installed a very fancy new milking system in the dairy.
He reckons between 15% of the herd to be dry at any one time, so about 170 being milked each day - they're on a twice-daily milking regime, with the cattle being kept in barns for only the shortest time possible over the wettest part of winter.
He also said it would not be possible to do the milking with only one person.
The idea that Ruth can manage if David helps out to give her the occasional lie-in, Eddie regularly does the afternoon milking and Josh is increasingly interested in taking his turn in the milking parlour, especially when extra pocket money is involved. Ìý was to him utterly laughable. -
Message 13
Posted by ayrshire-cowman (U2259898) on Monday, 18th June 2012
The point is that you would need a sophisticated and very expensive parlour to milk 150 cows with one person in an acceptable time. Say something costing 200k.
Which makes the panic about spending 20k on a slurry tower a bit daft.
however Brookfield were able to bump up cow numbers by David and Sam cobbling together some haund-knitted extension to the parlour. They did it themselves and it cost buttons.
As if. -
Message 14
Posted by barwick_green (U2668006) on Monday, 18th June 2012
Seems non-milk for 2 months a year, so 150 of their 180 herd at a time.Ìý
Saw a friend at w/end whose family have a 200-head herd (excluding calves/bullocks/heifers) and who have recently installed a very fancy new milking system in the dairy.
He reckons between 15% of the herd to be dry at any one time, so about 170 being milked each day - they're on a twice-daily milking regime, with the cattle being kept in barns for only the shortest time possible over the wettest part of winter.
He also said it would not be possible to do the milking with only one person.
The idea that Ruth can manage if David helps out to give her the occasional lie-in, Eddie regularly does the afternoon milking and Josh is increasingly interested in taking his turn in the milking parlour, especially when extra pocket money is involved. Ìý was to him utterly laughable. Ìý This just adds credence to the obfuscation in Tayler's response. Without shooting the messenger the original point was that milking at Brokefailed is a two person job so who is the second person OTHER than Ruth (or Eddie etc)?
The 'explanation' that Eddie etc cover for Ruth when she takes a day off isn't sufficient; who is the second person assisting EVEN when Ruth is absent please? -
Message 15
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Monday, 18th June 2012
Ys; it has made ,me realise the difficulty for Brookfield or organising milking when ANYTHING happens which requires Eddie and Ruth to be doing something else at the same time!
Milking is one of the few things that just has to happen relatively on time every day. -
Message 16
Posted by Mustafa Grumble (U8596785) on Monday, 18th June 2012
The point is that you would need a sophisticated and very expensive parlour to milk 150 cows with one person in an acceptable time. Say something costing 200k.Ìý
I agree, and with some other friends having spent rather more than this, it is still not practical for their cows to be milked by only one person. Twice-daily milking is, after all, rather more than just popping on the cluster & whipping it off again. Ruth cannot be doing it single-handed with only occasionaly sporadic assistance from David/Eddie/Pip/Josh. -
Message 17
Posted by Organoleptic Icon (U11219171) on Monday, 18th June 2012
Hi Ian
I've had a response from Steve Peacock, our Agricutural Advisor:
Ruth works hard but we don't suggest she runs her 180 cow herd single-handed. David helps out to give her the occasional lie-in, Eddie regularly does the afternoon milking and Josh is increasingly interested in taking his turn in the milking parlour, especially when extra pocket money is involved. That said, milking cows takes time and is hard and relentless work. It is a good job Ruth is so passionate about her herd.
TaylerÌý
Tayler IIUC the claim made here by those who say they know is that it is not realistic for just one person to do milking for a 180 coo herd - presumed 150 milking at any one time, though all 180 in their new scheme.
I think they mean more than one person needed for EACH milking (is that right Ayrshire & others?)
Could you perhaps put that specific point to the Ag Story Ad? -
Message 18
Posted by Tayler Cresswell - Host (U14232848) on Monday, 18th June 2012
I think they mean more than one person needed for EACH milking (is that right Ayrshire & others?)Ìý
If that is the case, I'll pass on this point
Tayler -
Message 19
Posted by Mustafa Grumble (U8596785) on Monday, 18th June 2012
The last chap I knew who could milk a herd single-handed, twice-daily, had a herd of about 120, so only 100 being milked each session.
He ended up selling his herd - could not make a profit: too few cows to justify an extra 'hand', too little land to increase the herd to 200, too few hours in the day, milk price kept on the floor by the supermarkets for year after year, massive increases in input costs. -
Message 20
Posted by Seveek (U13636812) on Monday, 18th June 2012
‘If that is the case, I'll pass on this point
°Õ²¹²â±ô±ð°ù’
I’m ambivalent Tayler. My point for Mr Peacock is more to do with the parlour equipment available. The other posts are perfectly correct; with the wrong equipment one person would not be able to do it.
But if Mr Peacock can tell us that they have a modern, 20 plus cow carousel or herringbone system she may just be able to do it in 4 hours 20 minutes in the morning and the same hours in the afternoon. If the parlour handles any less throughput, she would work nonstop; for example, 10 cows at a time would take nearly 12 hours a day.
It would help tremendously if Mr Peacock would give us the technical details of the parlour as you can see that we are quite interested.
It would also be interesting to know what experience Mr Peacock has in the dairy industry, and parlours in particular, although that would be unfair as his predecessor decided that Ruth could do it.
In order to relate with the program, it is important that these matters are plausible.
As ever,
Ian. -
Message 21
Posted by Organoleptic Icon (U11219171) on Monday, 18th June 2012
Seveek - So you - from expertise - are saying that if they have equipment of a sort that it is perfectly credible that a farm like BroF might have, then only one person per milking is needed, working a tolerable number of hours per day if occasionally relieved?
SO AS WE ARE TOLD THEY DO DO IT, THEY *MUST* HAVE THE KIT
And this whole thread is pointless? -
Message 22
Posted by Mustafa Grumble (U8596785) on Tuesday, 19th June 2012
OI, AC & Seveek have both alluded to the necessity for the parlour equipment to be modern - something quite sophisticated & by extension, expensive.
Brookfield has not invested in a new parlour for as long as I can remember, certainly not in the last 10-20 years. It would have been such a huge exercise and item of expenditure that it would have formed a major SL. The efforts made by David & Sam to boost capacity are not the same as installing a high capacity semi-automated new parlour.
As AC notes above, if they worry about £20k/£40k on reacting to the slurry lagoon breach, a modern parlour system is quite beyond them.
Brookfield cannot possibly have "the kit", and the thread's enquiry is justified. -
Message 23
Posted by Tayler Cresswell - Host (U14232848) on Tuesday, 19th June 2012
Thanks for the clarification, all
I'll pass this on
Tayler -
Message 24
Posted by Seveek (U13636812) on Sunday, 1st July 2012
Dear Tayler,
It's been a while since you passed on our request for clarification of the type of milking parlour and I wondered if you had any further information.
Mr Harvey must have had some idea when he introduced single person milking; perhaps he knew farmers who did milk that number on their own.
Thank you,
Ian -
Message 25
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Sunday, 1st July 2012
Yes, some clarification would be useful - dairy farmers are under such financial pressure nowadays that having to pay another set of wages would be crucial.
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Message 26
Posted by Organoleptic Icon (U11219171) on Sunday, 1st July 2012
Mr Harvey must have had some idea when he introduced single person milking; perhaps he knew farmers who did milk that number on their own.Ìý
It seems clear that Eddie was expected to be able to do so, and that David had not planned to help! -
Message 27
Posted by barwick_green (U2668006) on Sunday, 1st July 2012
< Mr Harvey must have had some idea >
...of how to promote his own causes? If he ever wrote about day to day farming issues then it never saw the light of day. -
Message 28
Posted by Tayler Cresswell - Host (U14232848) on Monday, 2nd July 2012
Hi again
I've had some more details about what's been broadcast about the Brookfield dairy. It had updating and extension work in 2004 when the herd was expanded. The new parlour went like clockwork at its first use; David and Sam milked 150 cows in under two hours.
Tayler -
Message 29
Posted by Organoleptic Icon (U11219171) on Monday, 2nd July 2012
David and Sam milked 150 cows in under two hours.Ìý
David AND Sam !!! The present discussion is if WR can do it alone.
How long if David did it alone?
And how long if Sam did it with Ruth?
Or if they milked the coos too? -
Message 30
Posted by ayrshire-cowman (U2259898) on Monday, 2nd July 2012
It takes more than twice as long to do a milking with one person than two.
This is because whenever a single milker leaves the parlour ( say to get a second batch of cows, attend to a calving , try to free a cow stuck in cubicle etc) progress quickly grinds to a halt.
When there are two of you one person can always keep things moving even if not at the fuull on rate. -
Message 31
Posted by Spartacus (U38364) on Tuesday, 3rd July 2012
Or if they milked the coos too?Ìý
Snork. -
Message 32
Posted by mike (U14258103) on Tuesday, 3rd July 2012
You would think, what with genetic engineering and evrything, that they would have managed to breed a cow by now that milked itself.
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Message 33
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Saturday, 7th July 2012
Just for the record, I have two farmer friends with a herd of around 120 Holstein and Jersey milkers who work full-time on their farm and have regular workers for around 30 hours a week. They have a 20-bay parlour - no carousel - and one of them does all the milking. Milking takes around 3.5 hours in the morning and again in the afternoon.
When we farm-sit they arrange morning and evening milkers and we put in long days scraping and washing the yard and parlour twice daily, doling out silage and feed, feeding and moving calves, mucking out, strawing down, checking and feeding the dry cows and heifers as well as the hundred and one other daily jobs involved.
Quite how David and Ruth find the time for all the calving, silage clamp construction, fence and land maintenance and slurry spreading, not to mention the accounts, ordering, maintenance of buildings and equipment and so on is beyond me. And then there are the Herefords to look after, too. -
Message 34
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Saturday, 7th July 2012
Sorry, just realised that I hadn't added that while Chris is milking, Sue is busy bringing the cattle in in the correct order and putting those that have been milked back out in the appropriate fields. Mechanical scrapers? When the cows are in during the winter there are mechanical scrapers in the sheds but most scraping is done first with a scraper on the back of a tractor and then by hand, before hosing down. Twice a day. Back-breaking work.
As others have said, with a herd that size and so many calves, there's almost always something else going on that requires time - cows with mastitis, difficult calvings (always in the middle of the night), cows down for one reason or another, TB testing, inseminating... As well as the milking stock, my friends often have 40+ housed calves and another 50 or so heifers out to pasture, all needing checking. We once spent an entire day, between milking, trying to fix the water supply to outlying pastures. It's endless work. -
Message 35
Posted by Organoleptic Icon (U11219171) on Saturday, 7th July 2012
In reply to mike:
You would think, what with genetic engineering and evrything, that they would have managed to breed a cow by now that milked itself.Ìý
We have. Though it's more a matter of automation than of breeding.
-
Message 36
Posted by barwick_green (U2668006) on Saturday, 7th July 2012
< I would appreciate it if you would get Mr Peacock to advise what sort of system they have to enable one person to milk that number of cows >
Answer there case none. Tayler- the point being made here by those in the know isn't who does the milking INSTEAD of Ruth but who does the milking WITH Ruth? -
Message 37
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Saturday, 7th July 2012
Well expressed, BG.
-
Message 38
Posted by Tayler Cresswell - Host (U14232848) on Tuesday, 10th July 2012
Apologies all - Steve did come back to me, and I forgot to post his response here:
Brookfield has a 12 x 24 herringbone parlour, in which any experienced dairy farmer ought to be able get through a herd of 180-odd cows in 3 hours. Parlours do vary, as do the skills of farmers, but Brookfield upgraded their parlour a few years ago and the Archers (and Eddie) are good at their jobs. I was talking to a farmer this morning who used to milk 180 cows in 3 hours in a much smaller parlour ... and she knows a Scottish farmer who can do it in an hour and a half.Ìý
Tayler -
Message 39
Posted by Mustafa Grumble (U8596785) on Tuesday, 10th July 2012
Tayler, there is more to milking than simply plugging on the clusters. Milking 180 cows in 3 hours implies 1 minute per cow.
Sorry, but there is no way Ruth on her own could also, within that 3 hours, do all the /rest/ of what "the milking" requires. See posts passim for details.
Ruth would require part-time assistance on every shift. And if Eddie was doing the milking without Ruth, he too would require part-time assistance.
The alternative is that once Ruth OR Eddie OR David has done the 3-hour udder-emptying exercise, each then spends a good couple of hours cleaning down and doing the myriad other jobs. -
Message 40
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Tuesday, 10th July 2012
Tayler, I'm sure MG, and the other posters who have much more technical and practical than me, will correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can see, to say that Ruth can be the sole person responsible for a herd of 180 milkers is rather like saying that I could provide 3 meals a day for 30 people, every day.
Yes, I could, if I had suitable kitchen equipment, it would be hard work, but well possible.
What I couldn't do, for longer than a few days if I wanted to sleep, have any sort of life and keep my sanity, is all the shopping, washing up, serving, maintaining equipment, etc that is auxiliary to actually doing the cooking. For that, I'd need an assistant, to work part-time most days. -
Message 41
Posted by Organoleptic Icon (U11219171) on Tuesday, 10th July 2012
Brookfield has a 12 x 24 herringbone parlour, in which any experienced dairy farmer ought to be able get through a herd of 180-odd cows in 3 hours. Parlours do vary, as do the skills of farmers, but Brookfield upgraded their parlour a few years ago and the Archers (and Eddie) are good at their jobs. I was talking to a farmer this morning who used to milk 180 cows in 3 hours in a much smaller parlour ... and she knows a Scottish farmer who can do it in an hour and a half.Ìý
Tayler the last sentence makes me disinclined to take any of it seriously.
Amid general discussions where it is accepted that it takes 3 hours OR MORE to milk 180 cows we are told of someone who can do it in half the time - which simply cannot be true if similar equipment used. -
Message 42
Posted by mike (U14258103) on Tuesday, 10th July 2012
>>>Tayler the last sentence makes me disinclined to take any of it seriously.
Amid general discussions where it is accepted that it takes 3 hours OR MORE to milk 180 cows we are told of someone who can do it in half the time - which simply cannot be true if similar equipment used. <<<
I am not sure it does! People's skills at carrying out various tasks varies greatly and I can quite believe that somebody really proficient could do a task in half the time that somebody else does.
It seems that this thread is driving us to the conclusion that Ruth is a really ace milker and some posters will just have to take that on board ... -
Message 43
Posted by Organoleptic Icon (U11219171) on Tuesday, 10th July 2012
I am not sure it does! People's skills at carrying out various tasks varies greatly and I can quite believe that somebody really proficient could do a task in half the time that somebody else does.Ìý
Maybe (just), but can their cows produce the milk in half the time? -
Message 44
Posted by Mustafa Grumble (U8596785) on Tuesday, 10th July 2012
I think that the Scottish woman's cows were either of a very low-yielding type, not on a maximised lactation rotation, & therefore spent minimal time hooked up, OR they had opposable thumbs & could put on their own clusters!
-
Message 45
Posted by mike (U14258103) on Tuesday, 10th July 2012
Because the bottleneck is the time it takes to switch cows rather than the actual milking time? For example, an ace milker may be able to quickly spot that a cow is finished and get another one in?
-
Message 46
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Tuesday, 10th July 2012
MG, is my sort of illustration in #40 a reasonable one for non-agricultural types, would you think, please?
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Message 47
Posted by Mustafa Grumble (U8596785) on Tuesday, 10th July 2012
My recollection of conventional herringbone systems is that that is not possible, Mike - if you have your dozen (or however many) cows parked in their slots, heads to the wall-mounted feeders and rear-ends to the centre pit, once a cow is done she is stuck there until all of that group are done. You couldn't get a middle one out and then maneouvre a fresh one into her place.
My issue is that even if Ruth were capable of a single-handed through-put of 60/hour (which IIUC would require a reasonably modern parlour, not a bodge-it-yerself knock-up job by Sam n' Dave), it's all the /other/ work involved in milking a herd - getting them in from the fields, into the collecting area, through the parlour, back out to the fields, cleaning down, scraping the yard, flushing the pipes, preparing the feed mix, etc etc etc, let alone anything going wrong, any health issues, foot trimming, and so forth. -
Message 48
Posted by Organoleptic Icon (U11219171) on Tuesday, 10th July 2012
Back to sums.
BroF has 180 coos of which 150 in milk at any one time. But let's say 144.
They have a "12x24" herringbone - meaning two sets of 12 at a time batch processing. So that's 12 in one side; connect up; 12 in other side; connect up; empty and refill side 1; then side 2, etc.
So 6 batches - 72 coos - per side; done in 3 hours. Half an hour per batch.
IF a coo can give all its milk at twice that pace you can do it in 1.5hours - 15 mins per batch - maybe 10 mins actually milking for the last one connected up.
Is this feasible?
Yes, according to this!
So WR can easily do it all herself! -
Message 49
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Tuesday, 10th July 2012
From your first link, OI,
"Using automation, a one-milker
operation maybe possible, but
cows are not seen or checked
after milk out – this can lead to
herd health issues".
This is what several people have pointed out - there is a lot more to managing a dairy herd than merely sorting out the clusters. -
Message 50
Posted by Organoleptic Icon (U11219171) on Tuesday, 10th July 2012
c_b - I know nothing about milking so have no view.
But "herd health issues" might perhaps be dealt with by special attention twice a week or something?
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