Messageboard
The Village Hall permalink
family history group
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Â
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Monday, 10th March 2008
is anyone interested in a group for those doing their family history/geneaology?
I don't mean exchanging personal details which I know isn't recommended, but tips & hints about good websites and/or suggestions for how to find answers to knotty problems.
I've been researching my tree for a couple of years and would have been lost without the pointers offered by more experienced people and the websites they've suggested. [I live a long way away from where my ancestors did so on-line is vital].
anyway, just thought I'd see what people think!
Pina -
Message 2
Posted by Brooke Field (U3225360) on Monday, 10th March 2008
Sounds like a useful idea, Pina. I started doing my family history a couple of years ago and have discovered some interesting stuff although haven't got back beyond early 1800s so far. However I recently joined the Genes Reunited site (others are available) began putting my family tree on it, and within a few days had been in touch with second cousins I never knew existed.
There are so many people doing family research that there's always bound to be someone to help out on Mustardland. As you say, not personal details but help and advice. -
Message 3
Posted by silverjenny (U4717129) on Monday, 10th March 2008
I think if you have not located it, the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú history site has a family history section which is a great place to swop tips, Pina.
-
Message 4
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Hi brooke & Jenny
thanks for your posts.
I'm a Genes member too and have met some wonderfully helpful distant relatives on there too. That's why I stay a member - I don't really make use of the other stuff like searches etc as I've got an Ancestry membership (other records services are available) which I think is the most comprehensive.
Someone on Genes put me on to the on-line parish clerk project which is great for pre-1837 stuff. Durham on-line is also really good (if you need Co Durham records of course!), as is the one run by the religious people, the Family History records site.
Thanks also for the link to the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú site. May well have a look at their message board too.
Thanks again
Pina
x -
Message 5
Posted by tillytrolly (U8311312) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Just a general point, which you probably know more about than I do.....have you tried the Mormons & their records ?
-
Message 6
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
hi Tilly
that's it - the Mormons are the religious people I meant earlier. Couldn't remember whether it was them or the Jehovahs and didn't want to offend anyone!
I find their stuff from the records v good. The stuff submitted by LDS members is less good and needs to be cross-checked for accuracy.
P
x -
Message 7
Posted by overandout (U10539354) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Familysearch, the site for LDS, is quite good but please beware of taking entries from other people as accurate. I did, and found myself early in the 1600's before I found that the entry was incorrect.Also there are not many entries after the late 1890. It doesn't contain deaths and some U.K. counties are hardly touched.
I'm sorry to have to say but really the only way to get information as accurate s possible is to look at the county records offices yourself. Parish records are only as accurate as the parson remembers or what is told at the time.e.g I have details where the bride doesn't name her father and gives her age incorrectly. They didn't read or write so the information is only as good as it is given at the time. There is really no short cut unless you want to pay a researcher but it is so much more fun to do it yourself. -
Message 8
Posted by RosaGallica (U3612905) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
I have done years of research and traced my (adopted) family back to the 1500s on some lines.
I agree with Librarian, for accuracy you need to double check information given by other people. I am lucky in that my Dad's family stay in Norfolk and Suffolk for centuries so I can use the local PROs. Librarian is right too, it *is* so much fun. I have learnt so much about how people lived, as well as putting together a family tree. In one Norfolk parish register I found a very disapproving entry by the vicar. concerning a christening it said ' This child is not the son of his mother's husband as he sold her to X and X is the father of the child.'
How I would love to know how the mother felt about this! -
Message 9
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Definitely agree with the views on accuracy about the stuff pout up on the Family History site by LDS members. One line I was following had 4 sets of parents in the same village with the same name. All children of all 4 families had been attributed to my line by an LDS member. Luckily this parish is covered by the on-line parish clerk records so I was able to separate out the different families by father's profession.
I would love to be able to go and check parish records direct but live over 300 miles away from where my ancestors did so on-line is the only practical way forward for me. There are some wonderful sites available now though covering the areas I'm looking into (a big hand for WiganWorld while I'm here) which helps.
I love that sense of satisfaction when you find a 'missing' person and think 'gotcha!'.
I also like following all the branches, not just the direct line. Gives you a real sense of how close communities and family links were, and also fascinating seeing the rise & fall of social mobility.
Rosa - gosh - a real Mayor of Casterbridge! Wot fun! What time period was this?
Pina
x -
Message 10
Posted by RosaGallica (U3612905) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Hang on, I'll just go look it up for you........
Here we are, 1784
'this woman's husband, X, sold her some years ago to Y with whom she has ever since cohabited and this child is by him..' -
Message 11
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
thanks - no wonder the vicar made a note. Fantastic.
The closest I have to any serious scandal is two marriages in the same month in the 1850s, one of a widower to a widow (second marriage in both cases, of course), and then of her eldest son to his eldest daughter. I would love to know who met first and what reaction there was to this, but will never know.... -
Message 12
Posted by RosaGallica (U3612905) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
I love a nice gossipy or disapproving vicar. The worst are the ones who just filled in the register from memory at the end of the year.
While I was looking up Norfolk's own Mayor of Casterbridge I found another footnote I'd copied down which said 'two more children were born out of wedlock to X by Y of Placename. Suspect that the name Y is a false one and that the child is a bastard.'
What was that all about? I would love to know the stories behind these bare facts.
Because I have used parish and other records rather than LDS info I have learnt so much about how our forebears lived. Often short lives, the endless childbearing and deaths associated with it. Smallpox was always recorded if someone died from it and I also found in one Norfolk parish register an account of the smallpox vaccination of the whole villag in June 1792. 'About 98 children and 37 adults. None died of the smallpox'
I didn't realise they could immunise back then. Maybe it was an experiment.
Hope I'm not boring anyone, but I haven't done any of this for so long and I'm getting all enthused again. -
Message 13
Posted by overandout (U10539354) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
#8 Rosa.
That's the same as OH. family stayed in Nofolk for centuries. I find the Millenium Library in Norwich absolutely brilliant as the access to GRI is freely available and there are people around willing to give advice. It's just a case of parish hopping for me. They've also got the electoral roll up to fairly current years. The Records office is, imo, not quite so convenient simply because they don't have internet access and I tend to keep my info on genesreunited so as not to have to carry all my paper notes.
The 'problem' I have with genes is that people ask for access to my tree with no regard to giving me any idea as to whether or not they are actually related. I haven't paid the subscription so in any case I can't give access but if I am given enough of a clue I'm always ready to pass on what I've found. -
Message 14
Posted by RosaGallica (U3612905) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Perhaps we have sat side by side at the Millenium library?
I decided to trace my birth family a few years back ( a good move, BTW) and used the Millenium library. Because of all my years and years of research experience I tracked down my birth family in less than a month, even though they all moved about a lot and even changed names. Not to put me off the scent, incidentally!
I have never used any online genealogy sites, although coincidentally I had a look round on some this week, but didn't seem to get anywhere. -
Message 15
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
hello Rosa
you're certainly not boring me. It's stories like this which make me carry on with the family history stuff.
I just looked up Jenner and smallpox vaccination and apparently he did his first attempt on his son in 1789, so feasible that your Norfolk village is being done in 1792. According to the same source (Not Wikipedia, BTW), Mary Wortley Montague also saw vaccination in Turkey in 1715 and brought the idea back. She had her own son inoculated and the Royals did a couple of the Princess of Wales' children in 1723.
Your vicar sounds a peach. I've got a similarly suitably nosy guy in Co Durham in the early 1800s who lists the origins of both parents. Given that the father hails from North Shropshire and the mother from King's Lynn there's no way I'd have got that detail otherwise. -
Message 16
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Librarian - I never give my tree access unless I'm convinced it's someone I've got a connection to. Because I use the Genes site as a back-up in case everything goes ping at home and have quite a few 'ordinary' names in my data the numbers of people who ask for access can get quite large. So unless there's a geographical connection or more than one relative in common to suggest there's a link I say no (politely of course).
if there is a link, then I'll share, no matter how distantly related people are. I got some wonderful stories about some of my Irish relations that way. -
Message 17
Posted by RosaGallica (U3612905) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Gosh, if Jenner only vaccinated his own son in 1789 my little Norfolk village was in the fore front of medical science. Not something you would expect.
Incidentally, these are various vicars and their footnotes. If I find something interesting I always note it down, whether or not it is connected to my family tree.
I have earned the admiration of the history department at my children's schools with one of the teachers telling daughter's class,'Mrs Gallica, now there's a *real* historian.'
Great hey? Usually I am mistaken for a boring middle aged house-wife. That, however, is my cover! -
Message 18
Posted by overandout (U10539354) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
There's ancestry.com family tree and when I had 3 days free access I went in and looked for OH family. To my delight I found someone had got details but my horror when I found details for OH immediate family omitting details for older members and details for myself >totally wrong<.
I emailed ancestry and eventually found out how to contact the other person but although some personal details have been deleted there is another annonymous entry which is still wrong. I have never given anyone permission to put our details on ancestry or anywhere else and my family is furious. -
Message 19
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Hi Rosa
Glad to see you getting some recognition..... Boring - no way!
I think you must have a forerunner of Jenner there in Norfolk, though, as reading through the stuff again ( it seems he didn't publish his study until 1796, and his work was in Gloucestershire in any case. So whoever you had in Norfolk must either have known about the Royal family or Mary Wortley Montague. Still ahead of the game though! -
Message 20
Posted by overandout (U10539354) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
It mght be an idea to ask the historians in Norwich if they know about this vaccination programme. They may be able to investigate and find out what really was going on.
-
Message 21
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Librarian - yes, I had a similar experience with someone on genes who's not related to me at all but insists they're related to everyone with a particular surname. She's posted all my family including immediate family on her tree even though we're nothing to do with her. I did debate whether to insist she took my family off but decided in the end not to bother. I felt she had enough problems as it was, judging by the amount of unnecessary personal detail she'd added about herself.
But it still occasionally annoys me!
I'm amazed that the person on Ancestry has still got your details incorrectly recorded if you took the time to correct them. I'd have been mortified. -
Message 22
Posted by RosaGallica (U3612905) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Re smallpox inoculation, hmmm... certainly were ahead of the game. I wonder how it came about and if it really was some kind of experiment? That would account for the note of there being no deaths. I suppose they meant no deaths from the inoculation, as they wouldn't yet know if it was effective against the smallpox. The parish record is in Norfolk's Record Office, I came across it by accident. I am intrigued now and will look into it further.
I wonder how they , whoever 'they' were, persuaded the whole village to be inoculated. BTW 'inoculated' was the term used in the parish record. -
Message 23
Posted by Mrs Ryecroft (U6999804) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
just bookmarking
-
Message 24
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Rosa - I'm also intrigued by your pocket of Norfolk medics. Presumably if it was the Squoire (other local dignitaries are also available) who was leading the charge then people would have fallen in with what he wanted, or perhaps he paid them? I can't see any other way of persuading a whole village to go with something so modern, otherwise. It would be the equivalent of ooh, I don't know, making everyone in a village sign up to the NHS donor register, I suppose.
Do let us know what transpires! -
Message 25
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
I wonder how they , whoever 'they' were, persuaded the whole village to be inoculated. Â
Depends on the parish, I suppose. The parish I grew up in was basically one farm estate, and that was probably even more common in the past, so I guess it would have been comparatively easy to persuade people if they wanted to keep their jobs and homes. Or maybe they just had some very persuasive and forward-looking doctor. -
Message 26
Posted by Spike (U2256483) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Just hooking on to the last message but with a new question.
I've got back about as far as I can with my family until I can make a visit to the area in which they were so I can try to get back past what I've been able to turn up online, but I'm interested in finding out about an ancestor more recent than that. He was born in the late 19th century and we know where he was and roughly what he was doing until the early 1930s, but then he went AWOL until dying in the early 70s. Is there any way of finding out more about where he was for the best part of 40 years through the mid 20th century when you aren't sure where in the country he was and the census information for the period isn't available? -
Message 27
Posted by overandout (U10539354) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Probably the only thing you could do is use the telephone directories and go through all the names. Ancestry.com have some of them but if you use your local library there might be a free link to ancestry.com via the public computers.
To be honest unless it is really important you find the person it will be a labourious task and you might not find them. The other way is to pay to see various electoral rolls but unless you have any idea about the area etc.( I would dare to suggest..don't bother..)If you do have an idea where it is you could go to the records office for the area and look through the elec.rolls but as they are in district order it will be a long job... -
Message 28
Posted by dean volecape (U1477030) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Tue, 11 Mar 2008 19:38 GMT, in reply to RosaGallica in message 12
The clergy who made those notes weren't just doing it out of gratuitous nosiness or disapproval - it was a pre-20th century 'genetic counselling' service. From time to time, presented with a couple who wished to marry, but who they knew to be siblings, they would say 'no'. It left some people, who didn't know the cause, very anti-Clerical. -
Message 29
Posted by RosaGallica (U3612905) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
Aah, thanks for that Dean, I had never looked at it from that perspective before.
-
Message 30
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
Spike - other than trying the phone books on Ancestry (as has been said already), you might be able to dig out some info from the 'Trying to Find' board on Genes. Or try Curious Fox, which works on a geographical basis.
The other thing which might give you some info is a letter to the local paper where you know your ancestor last was or possibly also the one where he was in the 1930s. I see these occasionally in our local paper (usually forces or school reunions).
Have you tried the WW11 service records? Not sure your guy would be of serving age by then but you never know! -
Message 31
Posted by Urban Myth (U2261658) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
bookmarking - an interesting thread, I've got a number of questions but am meant to be working at the moment!
-
Message 32
Posted by Spike (U2256483) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
Thanks for the responses PinaGrigio and Librarian. I'll probably give the phone books online a bit of a whirl and see how I go. The problem is that we have no idea where he went in 1930ish and he died in London.
He was too old to serve in WW11-well in his 50s when it started. We've found his WW1 war record so know where he was then.
I don't suppose it's something that's really vital, it's just that it's intriguing and there's nobody left in the family who is of an age to have been in any position to have any idea of what happened. -
Message 33
Posted by dondy (U3463640) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
To those of you who have done research in Norfolk (RosaGallica and Librarian, I think):
I have done a lot of online research (including looking at pre-1837 parish records on line and LDS website, but I want to go and look at the original parish records (or microfilms/ microfiches of them) next.
I've looked at the Norfolk Records Office website, but am a bit confused about the protocol for visiting. Do you need to book a slot, and do you need to tell them in advance what you want to look at ??
Also, are parish records available at the Millenium Library or just at the NRO ??
All advice gratefully received !!!
Thanks
dondy -
Message 34
Posted by dondy (U3463640) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
I don't suppose it's something that's really vital, it's just that it's intriguing and there's nobody left in the family who is of an age to have been in any position to have any idea of what happened.Â
Spike
Just a thought - do you have a copy of the death certificate ? This should give the name and address of the person who registered the death and their relationship (if any) to your relative. It might give you some more leads ??
What you say about there being no-one left in the family who would know strikes a chord with me - there are loads of questions which I should have asked my grandparents, but now it is too late.
My advice to anyone researching their family history is - speak to the oldest members of the family while they are still around. If I can persuade them, I am going to record the memories of my parents and aunts and uncles, so that the younger generations of our family have some record of them.
dondy -
Message 35
Posted by Kate McLaren etc (U2202067) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:54 GMT, in reply to dondyb in message 34
Any idea how to go about researching Central/Eastern Europe? Would the Mormons be any good and are they expensive?
Among other things I am trying to find out which concentration camp my grandparents died in and when. -
Message 36
Posted by dondy (U3463640) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
DD
I don't know much about reserching Jewish history, but the Mormon website has a section on it. I don't know if I am allowed to post a link but if you Goofle "familysearch", you will find their website.
AFAIK all their stuff is free to access.
I'm sure someone in ML has knowledge of this area.
dondy -
Message 37
Posted by Kate McLaren etc (U2202067) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:08 GMT, in reply to dondyb in message 36
not all Jewish, dondy. My mother's family was, but not my father's.
I'll try the website - thanks. -
Message 38
Posted by bunny (U2220728) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
Max, for Jews in Central and Eastern Europe, try
-
Message 39
Posted by overandout (U10539354) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
#33 dondyb
There is no need to book at Norfolk Records Office or tell them in advance what you want. it is a good idea to have a Readers Card. If you don't have one you need some form of identification and a current utility bill to prove your address. This will then allow you to use any of the Records Offices and see original documents. The Records Office is a new building but does not have internet access. Obviously you are only allowed to use pencils. As the records office is right beside County Hall there is free Wifi available for your own laptop but if you want to plug in to electrics you need a certificate from a qualified electrical supplier as to some safety thing...I have no idea what this entails but I'm sure you'll be able to find out.. The records office has the comprehensive records i.e. bishops transcripts and the newer parish records (1920's).
The Heritage Centre in Millenium library has copies - microfiche and microfilm of parish records, electoral rolls, newspapers, GRI, maps etc.plus reference books about the county, Internet access. also wifi access (and certificate required if you want to plug in to electric. There have been 2 major fires at he library in recent years so they need to be careful.)
Both places have lockers for personal belongings as you are not allowed to take coats and bags etc.in. Pencils only..
The library can get busy at weekends but there is no need to book but booking is offered. -
Message 40
Posted by dondy (U3463640) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
Thanks Librarian that's really helpful - I think I might give the library a go, and can get there in the week (with luck).
I'm most interested in the parish registers pre 1837, so I can check what I have found online and fill in the gaps.
Can I just check - what is GRI ?
dondy
PS I remember the fire which destroyed the previous library - we watched it from our office window. -
Message 41
Posted by Kate McLaren etc (U2202067) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:34 GMT, in reply to bunny in message 38
Thanks bunny. Amusingly the only thing I found to match the name I was looking for was my own Canadian cousin (neither she nor I have the surname we were looking for) wanting to find information. This was dated 2001 and I think she has since died. -
Message 42
Posted by RosaGallica (U3612905) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
Drystane, the Mormons would be able to order copies of various records from Eastern European countries. They do charge for this, but it is fairly inexpensive. You would be able to view them at one of the LDS family history centres. No charge to use them. I don't know whether it would be any use for what you are trying to do.It might be worth seeing what records they have.
A friend of mine did this once as she had Polish ancestry. To our amazement the Polish records were in Polish, which neither of us could read! Why it hadn't occured to us that 18thC Poles would keep their records in Polish, I don't know. My idiocy amazes me sometimes. -
Message 43
Posted by bunny (U2220728) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
Some of the other links on the JewishGen site might help, as would the Mormons, as others have suggested.
-
Message 44
Posted by overandout (U10539354) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
#40 Dondyb
GRI general records office index for birth marriage and death since 1837.
Are you familiar with freebmd website?
The records on that are taken from GRI and are by no means complete.
I can't recall the latest year for GRI records included at Norwich but it is fairly current. I looked for my own records to familiarise myself with how the records are set out and from that it was easy to start to understand.
They are freely available in Mill.Library. and N.R.O on microfiche. -
Message 45
Posted by dondy (U3463640) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
Are you familiar with freebmd website?Â
Certainly am ! Also free reg and ancestry and the gro website and many more. I use ancestry the most as we have an annual subscription, so can look at the full BMD records without further cost. Familyrelatives is also good, but of course it costs extra as not part of ancestry.
I just hadn't seen "GRI" before.
Thanks
dondy -
Message 46
Posted by Kate McLaren etc (U2202067) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:08 GMT, in reply to bunny in message 43
i did try the mormons but none of the surnames produced any results. will look at some of the other JewishGen links tomorrowzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz -
Message 47
Posted by San Fairy Anneâ„¢ (U2230890) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:00 GMT, in reply to Drystane Dyke in message 46
Just bookmarking this as I anticipate it being of some help. I am currently entering up into "Reunion" (some of) the family tree my Uncle made 1n 1990. It goes back 11 generations in most branches of the family on my mother's side. And there has been another generation added since! He hand wrote it on A2 with a mapping pen and my copy has been reduced to A 3. There are 15 cross referenced sheets! I am having some problems deciphering many of the dates. It is often hard to tell 8 from 3 from 5 due to the scaling down. If I were to try and check the dates where would I start? It's quite a job - they all seemed to have 7+ children! I'm not sure where he went for all his information, except that many were Quakers so I suspect Friend's House was one source. SFAnneâ„¢ -
Message 48
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
evenin' all
am feeling v pleased with myself tonight because I *think* I've found the place in NI that an ancestor emigrated from. He went to Manchester as a weaver in the 1820s or so and had quite an unusual first name. Have just found two flax farmers in 1796 with the same first name as him and his son. WooHoo!!
DD - the link that silverjenny posted in message 3 took me to the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú family history boards. Someone on there has drawn up a massive list of all sorts of on-line history websites so it might be worth looking there for central European stuff.
SFAnne - What a marvellous present. Apparently my granddad's cousin did the family history many years ago but when he died, some prawn threw it all out. I would cross-check those dates on FreeBMD assuming that they were after 1837. Otherwise there might be an on-line set of records either through LDS or via GenUKI. National Archive/Family History Centre apparently has all sorts of non-conformist records, too.
Can I also ask what people mean by 'bookmarking' a thread? I've noticed it several times in posts on various threads but can't find it in FAQs. Do they mean they put a post on a thread so it goes into 'Your Discussions' and they can find it easily again or is there something more cunning I haven't found yet? Thanks. -
Message 49
Posted by Brooke Field (U3225360) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
I haven't come across the on-line parish records site for pre-1837 stuff - can someone tell me what it is?
Thanks, Brooke. -
Message 50
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Wednesday, 12th March 2008
Hi Brooke
depending on which county you're talking about, there are various sites which have transcribed pre-1837 parish records. Some are free access like the Lancashire one, and some charge a small fee like Durham on-line. I was told about the Lancs one by someone involved with it, and found the Durham one by means of Google. If you want the link to either let me know.
Or there's the LDS site at FamilySearch.org but treat some of that with caution!
Cheers
Pina
x
About this Board
Welcome to the Archers Messageboard.
or  to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
This messageboard is now closed.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú iD
Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú navigation
Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú links
Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú © 2014 The Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.