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english language
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Message 1.Â
Posted by redfairley (U12137692) on Friday, 30th May 2008
please stop the new presenter (female)constantly saying / speaking with the phrase - "KIND OF" its just dreadful metropolitan bad speak english. I could ne care less about tribal English BUT i do care about bad English. Merci
neil fairley -
Message 2
Posted by AliX (U8463551) on Friday, 30th May 2008
I'm curious. What is 'tribal' English?
AX -
Message 3
Posted by Sheila1 (U2826143) on Friday, 30th May 2008
Never noticed the use of the phrase 'Kind of' at all,but wouldn't bother me if I had. Not worth bothering about,as far as I'm concerned. It's the programme content that interests me.
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Message 4
Posted by Paul N (U6451125) on Friday, 30th May 2008
Tribal English is awful, just like a lack of upper case letters and poor punctuation, innit Neil?
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Message 5
Posted by myplot (U6600643) on Friday, 30th May 2008
Hi copperPaul, I'm with you all the way.
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Message 6
Posted by GardenGnome (U4271468) on Friday, 30th May 2008
The English duuno da english n e more do they
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Message 7
Posted by mrsceedee (U11912918) on Friday, 30th May 2008
I get annoyed at presenters who constantly use 'fantastic'. Can't they think of another word to describe what they're talking about? I know our GW team are gardeners first but it would be nice to be able to concentrate on what they're talking about, rather than how they are saying it! Having said that, I still think we have a really great team at the moment - Carol, Joe & Alys.(Oh, and Sarah.)Still missing Monty though.
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Message 8
Posted by mrsceedee (U11912918) on Friday, 30th May 2008
By the way, GardenGnome - are you related to Gordon, Alan Titchmarsh's friend?
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Message 9
Posted by Kathy (U898169) on Friday, 30th May 2008
When I am a Gardeners' World presenter I shall overuse "magnificent" and "lush".
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Message 10
Posted by malanD (U7337386) on Saturday, 31st May 2008
Neil, a kind of, sort of is another way of saying, it is similar to, in a way its like...
My first language is not English, it is actually my 4th language. After living here for 40 years, I have got used to the weird and wonderful way some people use the language. -
Message 11
Posted by Margi (U2334861) on Monday, 2nd June 2008
Hi Kathy
When I'm a Gardeners' World presenter I shall overuse the works 'floriferous' and 'splendid!' Are we going to be on at the same time, I wonder? Wouldn't that be splendid!!!???
Margi x -
Message 12
Posted by Annerosemary (U8898266) on Monday, 2nd June 2008
When I'm doing my couple of programmes (because I don't want to hog the limelight) I shall outlaw 'this is my absolute favourite'!
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Message 13
Posted by judimac (U2467704) on Monday, 2nd June 2008
When I host it I shall concentrate on "real good doers"
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Message 14
Posted by pootles magnet (U11709665) on Monday, 2nd June 2008
Personally I would pay cold hard cash to have the phrase "wow factor" permanently erased from my TV!
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Message 15
Posted by Margi (U2334861) on Monday, 2nd June 2008
I'm with you Pootles!!!
Margi x -
Message 16
Posted by hootton (U10844212) on Thursday, 5th June 2008
When I do my guest spot I will try to think of as many, pre water-shed, adjectives for slugs as I can!
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Message 17
Posted by Trillium (U2170869) on Friday, 6th June 2008
If I was presenter my accidental catch phrases would be 'drop dead gorgeous' and 'fabulous'. Less satisfactorily I would start every explation with 'the thing is...' until letters were pouring into the Beeb to have me gagged.
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Message 18
Posted by Ian W (U8604472) on Friday, 6th June 2008
Agree with most of these comments but although it's not so much of a GW problem I really hate the misuse and overuse of "devastated". When someone is devastated they are so upset they have almost lost the will to live so to say something like "the slugs ate all my lettuces and radishes - I'm devastated" really gets my goat.
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Message 19
Posted by Nooj (U3233455) on Friday, 6th June 2008
When I do my bit of presenting, I shall start every sentence with
As Monty would have advised........
Tee Hee -
Message 20
Posted by Piggin (U4839534) on Friday, 6th June 2008
I wish folk wouldn't intersperse their statements with "you know what I mean", or just "I mean".
My fave adjective is marvellous! -
Message 21
Posted by Nooj (U3233455) on Friday, 6th June 2008
That's Marvellous Piggin!
Absolutely, my dear, if you know what I mean.
Totally on message! -
Message 22
Posted by Floweryann (U11334214) on Friday, 6th June 2008
I don't care, really. You just literally sow some seeds. Prune LITERALLY like this.
NO!!!! it's the one word which drives me LITERALLY bananas.
And is the most over-used and incorrectly used word on telly. Much more over-used by Jamie Oliver than anyone else, who uses it every sentence, but never correctly. -
Message 23
Posted by Paul N (U6451125) on Friday, 6th June 2008
I word I now hate is AWESOME and is overly used by our Trans-Atlantic cousins far too much. "This sandwich is awesome!" No it's not, it's just a tasty sandwich, OK?
Another is DISASTER as in "My lawn is a disaster". No it's not, it may have clover, daisies and moss, but it's not a disaster. Chernobyl and the World Trade Centres were disasters. You just have a lawn that needs working on. DISASTER is like SHOCK and HORROR, and much liked by the Daily Mail.
PS I've come over here from Allotment Tales as being critical of the misuse of the English Language is frowned upon.
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Message 24
Posted by Apple (U3132210) on Friday, 6th June 2008
When I do my guest presenting spot
I shall call everyone 'darling' (save me getting everyone's name wrong!) and say everything is 'lush'** and ask 'what's occurring?' **
** with acknowledgement and apologies to Gavin and Stacey!! -
Message 25
Posted by alterego2 (U2832721) on Friday, 6th June 2008
And while we're complaining, I'm just watching Joe Swift with his strong mockney accent. Must be terrible for his Clifton College and Cambridge University educated father to listen to him taking like this.
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Message 26
Posted by Palaisglide (U3102587) on Saturday, 7th June 2008
Being a common sort with a foot in several tribal area's of the North, I would probably lard my presentaion with;-
"Flying cow pats, aint that beeootifuul"
it would be in protest at those people who actually say "beeootifuul" and beats the s### out of "Literrally" as per other common folks like "what hi ham".
Being taught "henglish has she is spoke" at school more years ago than I care to remember, I am at a loss as to how you can detect real English speech when you hear it if ever.
Frank. -
Message 27
Posted by tomstattyead (U4792618) on Saturday, 7th June 2008
"Basically" Its all ABB FAB,
Ninety percent of English is French.
;-/ -
Message 28
Posted by Palaisglide (U3102587) on Sunday, 8th June 2008
Tom,
A rather broad statement as in fact in the 1970's the French were trying to eradicate English or "franglais" which included "le weekend" and "self service" plus very many others words from their language.
Around 25% of the language is French based and another 25% from the Roman. We are left with 50% of mixed tribal, Norse, German plus a good old mix of words from our Empire days.
This week if you read your French news they gave up on trying to kill "franglais" as a bad job, with a large portion of the world now using English as their lingua franca if you will excuse me using words that means the same to people world wide.
The people who present GW are from a gardening background, probably the last thing on their minds whilst learning the trade was speaking Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú English.
The main point being they can communicate their knowledge in a way we understand be it fractured tribal or OxCam English so does it matter??
Frank. -
Message 29
Posted by Nemesia (U2945080) on Sunday, 8th June 2008
I still think we have a really great team at the moment - Carol, Joe & Alys.(Oh, and Sarah.)Still missing Monty though.
This is from a post of Mrs CeeDees. Just wanted to say - has anyone heard how Monty is? I think I have only read about in The Times but have seen/heard no other comments. -
Message 30
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Sunday, 8th June 2008
"What's occurring" featured in a Naffest Chat Up Line phone-in competition on Capital Radio in the late 70s. I've been using it light heartedly ever since - but not for chatting up!
Can we ban "gobsmacked"? It makes me want to smack the offending gobs that utter it and I can do without mockney too. Don't have a problem with genuine regional accents or idioms though. I like those. -
Message 31
Posted by Palaisglide (U3102587) on Sunday, 8th June 2008
Obe,
Speech has fashions as do dress, Gardening, and even chat up lines "what is a nice girl like you doing in a place like this" "err" what were you doing in there to meet the girl??
Two of my Daughters speak the forces mix as they were in the forces, I of course recognise it and could tell by listening to voices the parts of the country people came from, probably something to do with being musical, you hear the nuances.
I object to people judging others by the inflections in the voice. You do not have to have a certain way of speaking to get your views over.
Listening to the content instead of the manner of speech is what it is all about, so "ile seeya gannin doon t road ter lotty then, an diven forgettin yer ganzi"?
Frank. -
Message 32
Posted by Floweryann (U11334214) on Monday, 9th June 2008
I like hearing a range of accents and local phrases, etc. It doesn't bother me where a presenter is from, or how the speak.
But I HATE hearing the same word used all the time... over and over, regardless of it's appropriateness. It doesn't make me assume that the presenter doesn't know what they're talking about or anyhting like that, but I do find myself focusing on the word more and more. -
Message 33
Posted by daffodiltulip (U10945152) on Monday, 9th June 2008
but some things are just wrong, such as saying, for dissect, di-ssect; it should be dis-sect. Far too many people on telly say give the i the long vowel sound.
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Message 34
Posted by Amazing (U7102651) on Monday, 9th June 2008
Hi Daffodil, don't you think that it has got a lot to do with where you were educated. In Scotland, (in the 50s and 60s) we were taught to put the emphasise on the first syllable. My mother was taught to say onvelope and that is the way I say it, others say envelope. I went to elecution lessons when I was young and think that I pronounce most words correctly. Maybe a lot of people need lessons on 'What is a syllable'
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Message 35
Posted by daffodiltulip (U10945152) on Tuesday, 10th June 2008
It doesn't depend on this or that - it's quite simply wrong; the word is DISSECT. The prefix in this case is DIS followed by SECT, not DI followed by SSECT. It may come as a disappointment to some people, but even teachers can be wrong, sometimes!
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Message 36
Posted by poshHebeJeebie (U9319867) on Tuesday, 10th June 2008
I'm with you daffodiltulip regarding pronunciation! But I think you'll find that "dis" is not a prefix ie it doesn't qualify the meaning.
The "i" in dissect is short because it is followed by a double consenant. Compare with "bisect" - "i" followed by one consenant, hence pronounced "bysect".
Oh the vagaries of the English language! It must be a nightmare to learn as a second language - especially when "natives" get it wrong
My particular dislikes? Split infinitives! The inability to identify the singular ("None of them is....." not "none of them are.....), apostrophe nightmares (aka nightmare's
))
"Compared with" not "compared to". And that's just for starters.
How I enjoyed "Eats shoots and leaves". It ought to be mandatory at school
There was a time when the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú led the (English speaking) world in pronunciation and grammar. How times change!
PHJ -
Message 37
Posted by daffodiltulip (U10945152) on Tuesday, 10th June 2008
Must disagree wtih you there! What about dislocate, disrespect? Dis is definitely a prefix. Also, bisect is different; bisecting is splitting something into two (bi), dissecting is splitting something up into parts of no particular number.
What do you think of "these ones"? I think "these" means "the ones here" and so only the one word "these" needs to be used. -
Message 38
Posted by poshHebeJeebie (U9319867) on Tuesday, 10th June 2008
D'youknow - I think you're right! Dis the prefix.
But the reason for the difference in pronunciation is, so I was taught, because of the following double consenant. And I realise that dissection in the rendering the the whole into many and varied parts, whereas bisect is to divide into two. (Remember those years of learning geometry? Bisecting angles and all of that?)
"These ones". Appalling! (Could be worse - "Them ones" Ugh!)
PHJ -
Message 39
Posted by Toadspawn (U2334298) on Tuesday, 10th June 2008
<quote>..The inability to identify the singular ...
I get quite peeved when 'data is' instead of 'data are' is used.
Also the use of a verb as a noun - 'the big ask'
I am sorry to say that the 'i' in bisect and dissect was always short when I did Biology many years ago.
I don't like it when presenters say 'x and I' instead of 'x and me' eg Carol on GW last Friday.
So many examples and local dialect has a very big influence. For example what is the difference between the pronunciation of - you, ewe and yew - or - year, ear, hear. Nothing because in parts of S Wales each one in each of the groups sounds the same. -
Message 40
Posted by jollymrsowl (U11053266) on Tuesday, 10th June 2008
Hallo everyone
I have lived abroad for nearly forty years and have only been able to receive Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú TV for the last four years. I have great difficulty understanding all the various accents and would be delighted if they brought back the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú of yesteryear!!
Daffodiltulip: Have you looked up dissect in the dictionary? The pronunciation is quite clear. The emphasis is on the di (as in die)
Bye Jolly -
Message 41
Posted by Lurganspade (U10706116) on Tuesday, 10th June 2008
I do not wish really to intrude in a private debate,especially as English is not my strongest subject.
This below was taken from Encarta, hope it helps!
Also as you can see,taken from French "AND" Latin,as others suggested.
The wonderful thing about our wonderful language, it takes words and meanings from every other language, unlike them!
dis-
prefix
1. to undo, do the opposite
disapprove
2. opposite or absence of
discourtesy
3. to deprive of, remove from
dishonor
4. not
disobedient
5. to free from
disburden
6. completely
dissever
[Directly or via French < Latin < dis "apart"]
Microsoft® Encarta® 2006. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. -
Message 42
Posted by jollymrsowl (U11053266) on Tuesday, 10th June 2008
I do apologize. I barged into this discussion and I thought we were talking about the pronunciation.
Jolly -
Message 43
Posted by poshHebeJeebie (U9319867) on Tuesday, 10th June 2008
It's a bit of everything! Use of English, syntax and pronunciation! Quite interesting really, since the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú were once seen as the guardians of the language!
Re pronunciation of dissect: the dictionary places the short vowel symbol over the "i" - therefore pronounced with the "i" as in "fit" not the long vowel as in "fight".
Since language is not a fixed system, and that it changes over time, our personal irritations about misuse are, perhaps, somewhat pedantic. (Doesn't stop me feeling like a Grumpy Old Woman, though, when I hear incorrect language or read poor sentence construction!)
PHJ -
Message 44
Posted by Trillium (U2170869) on Tuesday, 10th June 2008
Heck - friends and fellow boarders. I thought we were just having a bit of a comment about the repetition of 'kind of', which I did notice.
But now we are into a full-on Grammar school (been there, done that, got out quick) analysis of syllable emphasis and the deconstruction of the prefix. Methinks this is a step too far...
But while we are on the subject, can anyone explain how come flammable and inflammable mean exactly the same thing? -
Message 45
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Tuesday, 10th June 2008
It's subtle Trillium. Flammable means easily set on fire. Inflammable means that too but can also refer to someone with a hasty temper or someone passionate or easily excited.
As for exactitude in grammar, why not? One needs to understan the building blocks of any language in order to communicate well and I don't see why we should all lower our standards just because some government oik decided to let it drop from the national syllabus in the early 70s because it was seen as elitist.
The French may have everyone convinced that theirs is the language of love and diplomacy but in fact it has a far smaller vocabulary and a more rigid structure than English and there is nothing more eloquent, seductive or beautiful than a well turned piece of English be it a Shakespearean sonnet, Jane Austen prose, a witticism by Oscar Wilde, even a good modern political speech (rare I know), or newspaper article or a description of a plant by James Alexander Sinclair in GW magazine.
It's great to see or hear English being well used and it's positively depressing to see and hear it mangled by laziness of pronunciation or lack of vocabulary and eloquence in people, like Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú presenters for example, who should know better. -
Message 46
Posted by ArtemisHP (U12217956) on Tuesday, 10th June 2008
I would agree that some people wrongly use "I" instead of "me" but, surely, there are occasions when the "I" must be used. For instance, "Carol and I went shopping"; but, "John met Carol and me in the supermarket".
The easiest way, I think, of checking which is required is to remove the extra person, or thing, and leave just yourself. I believe it then becomes clear that you cannot say, "me went shopping" or "John met I in the supermarket".
Clear as mud? -
Message 47
Posted by tomstattyead (U4792618) on Tuesday, 10th June 2008
Frank Just read your comments on (English Language) Afraid I cant claim to be an authority on the English, or any other language.
I left school at 15, so my love of the written word is more instinctive than scholarly.
Whist I was attempting to learn French, my daughter bought me some C D's,in which "Michel Thomas " by means of an 8 hour course, guides us through the French language.
I think it was he who said that "English was 90%
French " (Percentage could be wrong ).
Who was it who said "a little Knowledge is a dangerous thing".
I don't give a Jot about the accents of the presenters of G W, more interested in the content. My name is Joan, I am Toms tattyhead
especially when i have spent the day in the garden . -
Message 48
Posted by Palaisglide (U3102587) on Wednesday, 11th June 2008
Joan,
Sorry, we all assume and I looked at the entry name and assumed you were Tom with a Tatty head.
In my area a tatty head means some one not quite there, a penny short of a shilling.
I had English belted into me as a kid at junior and secondary school and did discover a love for reading and books of every kind..
Being Durham born, Tees Weir Tyne I was never going to speak the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú Kings English but it did come in handy.
I was stationed with a company of half Scots Half Londoners for a short while so became the interpreter.
Geordy?? (I think not) wassa marrer wiv im then the Scots g## being somewhat devilsh my reply would usually cause hackles to rise. The same with the Scots, Wirra's the marrer wit that soft idjit and another fight would ensue.
The Londoners took me with them on weekend leave, I was fed watered and they found me a bed with usually a few bob to take back with me. I loved the Londoners and will hear no wrong said of them.
As to English "has she is spoke" we appear to be going back tribal, it is a badge of honour not to speak the language properly. In many papers and magazines it is not even written properly so what will they be speaking ten years from now?
Frank. -
Message 49
Posted by daffodiltulip (U10945152) on Wednesday, 11th June 2008
I don't know which dictionary, Jolly, but I am going to have to say it is wrong. Bad editing.
Another bugbear is saying sickth instead of sixth. What would happen if everything boiled down to the same sound? We already get the hard K sound from k, c and ck; why from x aswell? -
Message 50
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Wednesday, 11th June 2008
I think you'll find that "x" comes from our Latin roots and K from Saxon, Dutch and Scandinavian roots which make up about 50% of modern English language.
Having so many roots and sources and influences is the main reason English is such a rich language and can be so very precise, concise and explicit as well as elegant, romantic or fanciful. It does also lead to complicated spellings and pronuciation with few apparent rules but that's all part of the fun.
Have you ever tried explaining bough, cough, tough, through and thorough to a non native English speaker, not to mention sow and sow and sew and so? All essential words and I wouldn't want to go for the American style solution of dumbing them down to words like thoro!
Having good language skills exercises brain cells and makes them function at a higher level. Acquiring second and thrid languages, especially when young, boosts IQ levels. No bad thing.
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