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Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Yakram (U2443370) on Sunday, 1st June 2008
which has more than 200 areas including weather, news, sport and education. (the last one presumably includes gardening info?)
The sheer size and reach of the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú, from its TV channels to iPlayer, from countless radio stations to its website - both nationally and ever-increasingly locally - cast a long shadow across the British media scene.
It has a Trust to keep it in order. Yesterday the trust revealed that the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú spent £36m over budget on its website operation last year. The total spent was £110m, almost 50% over.
In 2004 the Graf review caused the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú to close a number of its sites because "they were not sufficiently distinctive from commercial alternatives."
Trustee Dame Patricia Hodgson said there is no need to close any this time round. She claimed that bbcdotcodotuk is "a central part" of the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú and said "vast numbers who use it love it." She also backed management plans to broaden the service even further.
Rivals are alarmed at the extent of the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú's website funding and its ambition in the dotcom world. Newspapers fear for their future as purveyors (sometimes) of news items.
Small extract from Friday's Mail financial comment pages.
Discuss?Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 2
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Sunday, 1st June 2008
Yakram - gardening is Lifestyle don't you know; ie optional/aspirational/leisure and not good for the soul, good for the environment, good for wildlife, good for the family or anything important.
Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 3
Posted by poshHebeJeebie (U9319867) on Sunday, 1st June 2008
The Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú spent OUR money on its web site - some 48% - yes: really 48% - over budget! That takes the spending to £110 million (and that's enough to pay for Radios 1, 2 and 3 put together)
This standard of financial mismanagement was described in the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú Trust report as "a serious breach" of the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú's regulatory framework.
to quote Neil Midgley (Friday's Daily Telegraph) "what is ... serious is the corporation's seeming willingness to spray public money incontinently around in unfair competition with its commercial rivals".
Not only does bbc.com compete directly with its British online competitors in its activites outside the UK, the international version of the website now carries adverts alongside licence-fee funded content!!!!!!
What! Is the Beeb prostituting itself for the international Buck, deigning to take the grubby dosh from advertising, when it steadfastly refuses to do so openly honestly and in the UK!
And why are funds from OUR licenses also being used to fund international websites? The Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú targets bespoke Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú online content at international markets - especially those where the competitors otherwise have a fighting chance of making a commercial success of their websites.
"If the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú wants to keep its publicly feathered nest, it needs to play a lot more fairly - particularly online." (Ibid)
And the "reason" (REASON?????) why the gardening MB is so heavily policed, so limited, is because of a lack of cash?
I, for one, would like some of my money back, please. I would like to vote for its being re-invested in re-creating the dynamic, informative gardening MB that once existed.
Some chance, huh?
PHJLink to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 4
Posted by swisscrimson (U12043815) on Sunday, 1st June 2008
the really great part about the bbcdotuk website it tries to do everything and does nothing well.
Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 5
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
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Message 6
Posted by phyll_ostachys (U12011174) on Monday, 2nd June 2008
Hi - those of you wanting to discuss this subject might be interested in reading the whole report, which is available here:
Alternatively, the press release sums up the key points:
PhyllLink to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 7
Posted by copywrite (U3184365) on Monday, 2nd June 2008
The Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is an incredibly valuable ambassador for British culture. I can't think of an institution that makes me more proud of this country. So when my tax goes to funding international sites I am glad. I feel the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú represents me and my values far better than the Royal Family (when on earth will we get rid of them? And yes, I do want my tax money back on the flying lessons given to those two princes - money wasted if ever it was), the prime minister or our big companies. If the most valuable cultural voice the US has is Hollywood, then the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is ours. We could get rid of the royals tomorrow and be no less admired, but we'd soon suffer if the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú were destroyed.
Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 8
Posted by Ken Smart (U1158196) on Monday, 2nd June 2008
I can't think of an institution that makes me more proud of this country.Â
It may seem like hypocrisy on my part (since I regularly contribute to the Board), but I honestly feel the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú should be dismantled as soon as possible. It would be churlish to suggest that there is nothing to admire about the Corporation, but any positives are far outweighed by the negatives. I just can't for the life of me see the justification for retaining this institution. I used to think that the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú represented quality programming, and would uphold the very best traditions of British broadcasting. The truth is that in recent years they've 'dumbed' so much that I can honestly say that I only regularly watch Gardeners' World, a few programmes on Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú4 and whatever sport appeals to me (although even sport contains more inane chatter than action these days). About 4 hours a week is my average viewing, and for days on end Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is just never switched on at all. News and Current Affairs have become a sad joke (just look at the Newsreaders, and don't mention the weather drama queens), and it's really in this area that most pleas for the retention of Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú are focussed. It's little wonder I await with interest news of just who will succeed Monty Don on GW, as this may well knock another former favourite off my viewing list. If this is a valuable ambassador for British culture, I think I'll be heading for the hills. There is no doubt that the actual website is a hugely impressive creation, but I'm afraid that this doesn't hide the fact that the current Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is not a healthy influence in modern Britain.Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 9
Posted by malanD (U7337386) on Monday, 2nd June 2008
If you go abroad regularly and watch the national of tv in the foreign country, you would be very glad to have our Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú as one of the chnls there. Its like being 'at home' and also the quality of the programms is so bad that when I come back, I just want to watch whatever is on at that time.
Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 10
Posted by Eladekralc (U3040105) on Monday, 2nd June 2008
Ken
What are you on about, the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is producing fantastic programmes and I personally think it is worth every penny of my licence fee and really glad I do not have to listen to adverts every 10 mins. I know I watch hours of Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú a week and not one of those precious hours is 'Soaps' or 'reality' TV.
Surely what you mean is 'Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú does not put on programmes I want'...
Some of the drama's have been excellent, the documentaries have been superb (Sunday nights Nightingale was excellent), and where do you get this theory of glamour girls on the weather I don't know as I think they are very concise and professional. The Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú radio is unrivalled for local and national news and again the R4 plays and factual programmes are well made.
As for the web, it is my first port of call every morning for a balanced view of events along with huge amounts of other data that I know can be relied on for its accuracy and unbiased opinion mainly as I have a brain of my own and just want the facts.
Yes there has been some programme drumbing down and some mistakes but now we have Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú4 & 3 there is always something to watch instead of 'Vote for the next Ken Smart' reality or unreality considering your view.
So I can get to know what you would like to see can you advice me any other channel that is giving you the outlet for gardening that the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú does and will gladly re-evaluate my watching techniques.
Alas I do not see Gardening programmes on any other channel (rosemary & Thyme does not count) and as for informative programmes like Gardeners Question Time, Springwatch, The living Planet, Countryfile, Ray Mears, or even Newsnight along with informative webpages and discussion boards, there is no alternatives.
Also if you have watched or talked about the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú abroad, the people I have done so with, all think the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is one of the best things about Great Britain and I personally think if people like you had your way, it would be sorely missed.Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 11
Posted by Ken Smart (U1158196) on Monday, 2nd June 2008
If you go abroad regularly and watch the national of tv in the foreign country, you would be very glad to have our Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú as one of the chnls there. Its like being 'at home' and also the quality of the programms is so bad that when I come back, I just want to watch whatever is on at that time. Â
It's not really a very valid argument to compare the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú with what's happening in other countries. I would imagine that the content of TV in any country reflects the culture of that country. I confess that the only TV I see when abroad is when I'm searching for a weather forecast, and I usually end up reminding myself never to purchase Sky. When judging the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú, I think of the quality we had when we only had a couple of stations, as compared to the bilge that the new multi-channel Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú spews out, primarily for the very people who don't have to pay for a licence. However, getting a bit further away from gardening all the time.Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 12
Posted by poshHebeJeebie (U9319867) on Monday, 2nd June 2008
Thanks Phyll for the link. Read it (nearly). Orwell must be proud, wherever he is - just think, he wrote fiction, and Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú speak in its reports becomes fact! Scarey or what!
Misshoneydew: the reason for "changes" on MBs in general and the gardening MB in particular was predicated as being one of finance. Garden Host, 24th October 2007:
"As you are aware, the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is reviewing many of its services in the face of financial cutbacks. The message boards are one of the areas under scrutiny."
Much discussion ensued from many posters (a significant number of whom have departed the board) regarding the financial implications. They were not disabused by the Host.
(Interesting post, by the way, from one with no posting history. An Alter Ego perhaps?)
With regard to some of the other points regarding the value of the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú.
For what it is worth, I do feel that the corporation has a gravitas that is lacking in many other channels. However, this does not give it carte blanche to spend vast amounts of money on internation web sites of dubious importance and/or relevance. Oh - and talking of money: they overspent by £36million. Guess what the new budget is for the coming year? It's last year's budget plus £36 million. Nice work if you can get it. A commercial company overspends - and is then given the overspend built into the next year's budget! Hmm - don't think so some how! (perhaps Alan Sugar would have an opinion on such profligacy).
Much of what is done by the corporation certainly has a general perception of having an overall quality. Whether I like a particular programme or not is irrelevant (one man's meat is another man's poison!). But it runs the risk of losing its status as an ambassador for British culture when it commissions poor, audience-grabbing programmes, and when it positions itself as a heavyweight, trying to force out local competition, especially with the international version of the websiste.
Credit where it is due: the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú Trust investigated various aspects of expenditure, and but for them, the online overspend may never have come to light. So that's the plus point.
But the licence fee will be settled in five years' time. If it wants to retain the guaranteed income (which must make competitors green with envy) then they must surely not abuse their historical importance in the history of broadcasting, or assume that might is right.
PHJLink to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 13
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
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Message 14
Posted by Norfolk-boy (U2465679) on Tuesday, 3rd June 2008
I used to think that the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú represented quality programming, and would uphold the very best traditions of British broadcasting. Â
Andrew Gilligan did his best to uphold those traditions by challenging the government on their Iraq policy, and educate and inform us of Tony Bliar's antics to get us involved in an illegal and un-necessary war. Unfortunately the luvvies at the top of the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú deemed massaging Alastair Campbell's ego more important than the integrity of their own journalist and institution.
Don't get me started on daytime or Saturday night TV...Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 15
Posted by Nooj (U3233455) on Tuesday, 3rd June 2008
Oh Misshoneydew!
You are so upset
We're all sorryLink to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 16
Posted by poshHebeJeebie (U9319867) on Tuesday, 3rd June 2008
misshoneydew
"absurd"????
What is absurd about pointing out that the given reason for changes on the board was one of finance?
What is "absurd" about commenting obiter dicta that a number of posters had left the board?
What is "absurd" about asking for your provenance?
Nooj: Not "all" posters are sorry. I am not. I may be in a minority of one. But I was entering into a discussion as requested by Yakram.
The subject warrants scrutiny. My opinion is my own.
Question: is the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú justified in its expenditure on the website? Question: is it valid for licence-payers' money to be spent on bespoke international websites? Question: is it acceptable for the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú to take advertising revenue for such sites, undermining commercial sites, when the very remit of the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is to place itself beyond commercial influence?
As Yakram said: "Discuss"Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 17
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
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Message 18
Posted by Ariadne Knickerbocker (U4534559) on Tuesday, 3rd June 2008
Hi Norfolk-boy
Have to agree with you. Have you seen this site.. previews what viewers can expect on a Friday night..
Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 19
Posted by poshHebeJeebie (U9319867) on Tuesday, 3rd June 2008
Hi Cynthia. Like the link - but not sure how it relates to the web site?
PHJLink to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 20
Posted by Ariadne Knickerbocker (U4534559) on Tuesday, 3rd June 2008
Eh? What web site?
Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 21
Posted by poshHebeJeebie (U9319867) on Tuesday, 3rd June 2008
Cynthia: See Yakram's first post, and discussion about the cost of the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú website.
We know they spend a lot (!) on other things - but it is the overspend on the website that (perhaps) is cause for concern.
PHJLink to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 22
Posted by Ariadne Knickerbocker (U4534559) on Tuesday, 3rd June 2008
Oh.. well not to worry.
I was agreeing with Norfolk-Boy that the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú's reporting standards had slipped. One of the parliamentary correspondents (Robinson?) recently said that he had been bullied by spin-doctors into not reporting the fact that Brown and Blair were at each others throats (although this was periodically leaked). I must be extremely naive but I somehow had thought that parliamentary news correspondents were there to report the truth and not some spin they had been bribed, blackmailed or bullied into withholding.
I'm not sure where any of this relates to gardening though.Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 23
Posted by poshHebeJeebie (U9319867) on Tuesday, 3rd June 2008
hi Cynthia: Directly, it doesn't relate to gardening per se. But in terms of budget, spending and the reason (!) for emasculating the gardening message board is, perhaps of some relevance?
PHJLink to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 24
Posted by Ariadne Knickerbocker (U4534559) on Tuesday, 3rd June 2008
To be honest I actually agree with misshoneydew/grid
to an extent when he says
The report also states that the goal of the moderation standards and rules is to keep the message boards a friendly place for polite topic related debate and user interaction.
So the reason for heavy moderation on this board is due to abusive behaviour in the past and to keep the boards on topic. Â
The moderators had let the gardening boards look after themselves over a long period of time and it appeared to have worked well enough until various posters took advantage of the situation and pushed the limits too far both in off topic and in abusive behaviour. Board members were warned there would be a crackdown and there was. Unfortunately the crackdown appears to have been so severe as to destroy any interest or creativity on the boards and to have guaranteed even more friction by lining the board members up against the hosts.
I guess dealing with the problems of messageboard culture and behaviour is relatively new territory for everyone and we are all on a steep learning curve.Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 25
Posted by poshHebeJeebie (U9319867) on Tuesday, 3rd June 2008
The "reason" for the crackdown, as you call it, was one of finance.
The fact of the crackdown was pretty damn' close to Big Brother (and I don't mean the silly TV programme).
The new measures were to be reviewed. I must have missed that one - not aware of any review, only the mantra of "keep on topic" and "carry on regardless"
And I still pay my licence fee!!!
PHJLink to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 26
Posted by poshHebeJeebie (U9319867) on Tuesday, 3rd June 2008
Just a thought ------- If we substituted "Murdoch" for every time Yakram mentioned the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú - would we be so forgiving?
Hmmmmmm Quite a hard question!!!!
PHJLink to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 27
Posted by Apple (U3132210) on Thursday, 5th June 2008
ping ... want to read - will read later ......
Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 28
Posted by poshHebeJeebie (U9319867) on Saturday, 7th June 2008
Hmmm. So it seems that no-one has anything to say on the subject?
Sorry Yakram - I anticipated a lively discussion. After all, the tax (whoops! sorry - licence fee) that we pay has to be accounted for, and you posed the question as to whether or not the large web-site was, effectively, good value for money.
To paraphrase: All that is required for wastefulness and profligacy to exist is for good men to do nothing.
I wonder if they were banking on that? No (or little) protest = no problem! Ho hum!
PHJLink to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 29
Posted by Nemesia (U2945080) on Sunday, 8th June 2008
copywrite (U3184365) , 6 Days Ago
The Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is an incredibly valuable ambassador for British culture. I can't think of an institution that makes me more proud of this country. So when my tax goes to funding international sites I am glad. I feel the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú represents me and my values far better than the Royal Family (when on earth will we get rid of them? And yes, I do want my tax money back on the flying lessons given to those two princes - money wasted if ever it was), the prime minister or our big companies. If the most valuable cultural voice the US has is Hollywood, then the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is ours. We could get rid of the royals tomorrow and be no less admired, but we'd soon suffer if the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú were destroyed. Â
I really couldn't agree more. The Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is an amazing institution and I would genuinely miss it very much if it went away. Anybody who is anybody listens to the Today programme in the mornings. If you want topical it's on there. I am not surprised that the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú gets more hits than any other site on the Internet.Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 30
Posted by swisscrimson (U12043815) on Sunday, 8th June 2008
What is to bad about the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú website is the multitude of bad design elements and usability issues. I guess the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú design team forgot the k.i.s.s. rule in several places.
Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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Message 31
Posted by janerowena (U10782401) on Monday, 9th June 2008
The search functions certainly are a problem.
Link to this forum: Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú has country's biggest website
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