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Toby Buckland and use of Peat
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Message 1.Â
Posted by pinktequila (U2803141) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
I see in this week's Gardening News that Toby Buckland has stated that he does not disapprove of the use of chemicals and says he will advocate the use of Peat in potting composts where he sees it as necessary. I am not averse to the use of some chemicals in the garden, although I like to limit their use however, It alarms me that the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú have employed someone who advocated Peat, it is the same as saying that Geoff Hamilton, Alan Titchmarsh and Monty Don were wrong. I thought most people were now aware of the problems that large scale Peat extraction is causing. I was happy to give Toby Buckland a chance but along with his daft way of using edging shears he has lost me now.
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Message 2
Posted by borderbabe (U2901124) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
Cant agree with your comments on the edging shears - I tried it - it was very easy and the edged looked better.
As for the peat - I think it's like most things in life - the information is out there and people can make an informed choice. He didnt advocate using peat all the time which I would agree is not the way to go, but said use it where you can't use an alternative. I see this as trusting people to use their common sense. The Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú cannot, after all, be seen to be backing one cause over another.
We all have to garden according to our consciences, budgets etc. -
Message 3
Posted by pinktequila (U2803141) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
We do all have to garden to our conscience and budget I agree. However, I do not accept that there is not an alternative to Peat. There is general agreement on reducing our use of Peat including from the RHS and the government. It is a great shame that Toby Buckland does not share this view. Interestingly generations before us have grown citrus without Peat so I cannot see why the RHS cannot do it now. For Toby Buckland as the lead presenter on Gardener's World to present the case for Peat is in my opinion the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú coming down on one side unless they have the opposing view out on the programme just as they had a pro-peat voice in the face of Peter Seabrook when Geoff Hamilton came out against Peat before.
As for the edging shears the angle he used seemed far too big to me and his shears were dirty! -
Message 4
Posted by Little Cornflower (U12037777) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
Surely the adage "moderation in all things" covers most aspects of life?
I use one bag of peat each autumn, to mulch around camellias,rhododendrons, blueberries etc.I find it very beneficial and do not think that such a moderate use is scandalous - likewise I use slug pellets sparingly.
Gardening programmes / magazines should inform people of options and choices and let them make up their own minds about usage.
I think that Toby appears to have a realistic view of gardening and wish him well. -
Message 5
Posted by thevodkarose (U13048111) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
He is completely correct in my opinion.
Some plants need the peat, not least the carnivorous species which would not last 5 minutes in peat free potting compost.
You'd also be amazed at the difference eraceous peat makes when progogating acid loving primulas.
I think I'm of the same mindset as him. 99% of the time I insist on using peat free, but for that other 1% it's a must. -
Message 6
Posted by Little Cornflower (U12037777) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
I agree completely
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Message 7
Posted by Biglongdibber (U11863887) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
This story, which appeared in the Daily Telegraph, is complete nonsense. It seems to be based on a snippet of an interview with Toby in Amateur Gardening magazine, in which Toby clearly states he wants to remain peat-free at Berryfields and use alternatives such as coir and green compost. Toby said he'd only use peat in extreme circumstances, such as for potting lemons where no alternative is recommended. The same goes for chemicals, which would only be used once in a blue moon where no realistic alternative was available. I visited the National Amateur Gardening Show and heard the talk in which Toby made these comments and he was applauded by the audience. It's just a shame that newspapers choose not to report Toby's full comments just to get a headline.
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Message 8
Posted by mavoman (U6670129) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
also the way some people believe all they read in newspapers is true
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Message 9
Posted by Trillium (U2170869) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
Just as interesting is the glyphosate question which Toby suggests in the same article can be the lesser of two evils if its use enables local food production, for example. I used to use glyphosate regularly, confident in the belief that it was environmentally benign as it breaks down outside the plant environment. But I did some online searching a year or so ago and there seemed to be plenty of research suggesting otherwise, especially in relation to the surfactant polyoxyethylene amine (or POEA),used in most brand name glyphosate based products, e.g. Roundup.
It doesn't bother me particularly if a product hasn't got an 'organic' label on it, but I need to be confident of a very low environmental impact. So if Toby is saying that using glyphosate is fine in moderation, I'd like to see some accompanying info about its effects along with advice as to how and where not to use it. -
Message 10
Posted by pinktequila (U2803141) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
I first read about it in an interview in a trade magazine just so no one thinks I am a telegraph reader. I still stand by what I say and am disgusted by his advocating of Peat in small or large quantities. Now is not a time to be suggesting that we can eradicate peat bogs when we need to grow lemons are mulch rhodedendrons. His stance is a complete change from the ethos of Gardener's World and at odds with the other presenters and head gardener. Maybe a proper article should take place on the programme about this and the issues can be looked at.
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Message 11
Posted by pinktequila (U2803141) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
I see there is to be a Gardener's World special on Peat use to be shown in the new year. Should be interesting.
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Message 12
Posted by Stressed out (U11163734) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
As other posters have pointed out Peat is required for certain plant groups, there is no substitute.
Just don't use it for everything, and think about what you are using it for.
As for multipurpose I lost a huge amount of plants last year because the grass cuttings it had been made out of had residue of a very nasty herbicide in it. The plants that were re potted were very sensitive to this herbicide. The OH also cut her finger on a large piece of glass in the compost as well and this was Levington's. So we will not be getting that again.
Chemicals are fine if used in moderation and to the correct dilution. -
Message 13
Posted by thevodkarose (U13048111) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
RowanCottage, that's frightening! I'm glad I'll be self sufficient for peat free compost next year, being the proud owner of a completely full 700L bin.
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Message 14
Posted by thevodkarose (U13048111) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
Also, what's the current thinking behind reusing old and tired compost? I currently use mine for summer bedding and then mix it all up and remove roots and reuse for the autumn-winter-spring planting season with the addition of some slow release food.
Some reused compost gets used as a mulch in the flower beds too.
I hope the upcoming GW special covers all of this too. -
Message 15
Posted by Edward King (U13260015) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
You might be in for a shock its not the open and
shut case that you seem to think. Gardeners are not
the major users of Peat by any means. -
Message 16
Posted by Stressed out (U11163734) on Tuesday, 23rd September 2008
Beechgroveforever
You are not kidding.
Just go out in the scottish highlands and in places you and see peat cutting machines and stacks of cut peat drying for burning. -
Message 17
Posted by Biglongdibber (U11863887) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
To set the record straight, over 90% of peat harvested is burnt in power stations. That puts gardeners' use into perspective.
Yes, Toby did say he'd use peat in his potting mix to grow lemons, becasue there's (as yet) no alternative for citrus. In 99.9% of situations he'd opt for a peat-free or organic alternative.
At the debate in which Toby made these comments, which I was at, three quarters of the audience put their hands up when asked if they'd used chemicals this year. And just one third were organic. So Toby is just responding to how people garden in reality. -
Message 18
Posted by borderbabe (U2901124) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
Vodkarose - re message 14 reusing old compost - I do the same as with winter bedding and seem to get a resonable show each spring then use fresh compost for the new summer bedding, this time putting the old compost onto the garden or in the compost bin.
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Message 19
Posted by greeneddy (U6603838) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
I was hoping for a posting from Pete-Free on this thread . . .
I try not to use peat-based compost at home, using mostly my own mixes made from leaf-mould and home-made compost, and always use peat-free at work, cos I work for an environmental charity.
What is the requirement re citrus?
I've never grown them and would be interested to hear just what it is about peat that they need.
Re rhodo mulching, I thought peat was used round ericaceous plants because of their need for specific pH requirements, and other lime-free mulches would work just as well as peat. -
Message 20
Posted by Pip (U2800217) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
I've grown lemons for several years. I mix JI 3 with just enough New Horizon organic PEAT-FREE compost to make it feel er 'nice' (?), and throw in a bit of coarse grit for luck. They love it, cropping heavily and regularly.
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Message 21
Posted by Biglongdibber (U11863887) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
John Innes No 1, 2 and 3 all contain peat!!!!
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Message 22
Posted by Madonplants (U5524817) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
Might be a good thing to read this...
especially the bit on cultivation and quote...
'Compost. Use a good quality medium grade moss peat.' -
Message 23
Posted by pinktequila (U2803141) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
the fact that more Peat is cut for use in power stations is not an excuse for us gardener's to carry on using it. That is a bit of a cop out.Gardening is about being sensitive to the environment around us surely?
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Message 24
Posted by greeneddy (U6603838) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
'Compost. Use a good quality medium grade moss peat.'Â
Just looked at the rhs website.
As a previous poster said, the RHS is supposed to be advocating alternatives to peat.
Talk about mixed messages! -
Message 25
Posted by thevodkarose (U13048111) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
Hmm.
I thought it was well known rhodedendrons and azaleas could be potted in well rotted leaf mould as a peat alternative? Even I knew that one, and I've never grown them before in my life. -
Message 26
Posted by greeneddy (U6603838) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
So, we seem to be saying, fine to grow rhodo/azaleas/other ericaceous plants in peat-free substitutes, like leaf-mould, and citrus plants can grow well and crop well without peat. . .that only leaves sundews, which only use teeny pots anyway . . .anybody grown these in peat-free alternatives? (then I can go to bed happy) . . .
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Message 27
Posted by thevodkarose (U13048111) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
The carnivorous plant society has tried various subsitutes, and last time I read the results none came close to the worth of peat mediums.
They are true peat bog plants, I suppose! -
Message 28
Posted by thevodkarose (U13048111) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
There's also a bit of a catch 22 situation with carnivorous plants. Many are becoming rare due to the collection of peat from the wild destroying their habitats, so to conserve them for future generations to enjoy, we need to use peat.
It's enough to drive one crazy thinking about it. -
Message 29
Posted by Edward King (U13260015) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
Greeneddy before you drop off What about the Power
Stations they will still using it -
Message 30
Posted by Braidman (U11753668) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
If you do not want to use peat in your own garden; then don't!!!!!
But why complain if others want to use it?
Dog in a manger, springs to mind!!
All these single issue campaigners, see no wrong in what they do, only in others.
The world is not going to end,if I buy another bale of peat, this year! -
Message 31
Posted by mavoman (U6670129) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
well said braidman lots worse things going on like the chelsea tractors
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Message 32
Posted by greeneddy (U6603838) on Wednesday, 24th September 2008
Er, all I said was I could go to bed happy!
I don't run power stations, but I do do a lot of gardening. And would like to do my bit to make sure peat bogs are still around for when my kids are older. I haven't runed the heating on yet (brrrr)
I'm happy for different opinions to get expressed, but getting a bit fed up when tons of bricks come down on me . . . -
Message 33
Posted by phyll_ostachys (U12011174) on Thursday, 25th September 2008
Hi folks - it's a thorny issue, that's for sure. Have you seen our article on the peat debate? There's some interesting facts and comments. Phyll
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Message 34
Posted by pinktequila (U2803141) on Thursday, 25th September 2008
The whole point of not using peat is to save the peat bogs, it would be pointless if we did not try and convince others not to use it also. No the world will not end if you buy a bale of Peat, however, by you and thousands of others buying bles of peat you are contributing to the end of Peat bogs.
What on earth has a dog in manger got to do with it. I see that as relating to churlish behaviour in the dog, surely it is churlish to demand your rights to destroy the Peat bogs despite all the evidence suggesting you are wrong! -
Message 35
Posted by mavoman (U6670129) on Thursday, 25th September 2008
when was the last time you went to see a peat bog
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Message 36
Posted by pinktequila (U2803141) on Thursday, 25th September 2008
This morning actually. Sorry but you have asked the one person here who lives next to a peat bog.
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Message 37
Posted by mavoman (U6670129) on Thursday, 25th September 2008
on mars
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Message 38
Posted by pinktequila (U2803141) on Thursday, 25th September 2008
Excuse me?
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Message 39
Posted by mavoman (U6670129) on Thursday, 25th September 2008
sorry but you are going a bit over the top about this
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Message 40
Posted by pinktequila (U2803141) on Thursday, 25th September 2008
I am not quite sure what you mean. I live on Lindow Peat Moss in cheshire. Where Lindow Man was discovered and also the remains of a bronze age forest. You asked when the last time was that I had visited a peat Bog so I answered honestly, you then for some unknown reason said 'On Mars' who is going over the top?
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Message 41
Posted by mavoman (U6670129) on Thursday, 25th September 2008
your answer sounded a bit flipant at the time but ive said sorry
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Message 42
Posted by pinktequila (U2803141) on Thursday, 25th September 2008
Fair enough.
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Message 43
Posted by mavoman (U6670129) on Thursday, 25th September 2008
thanks
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Message 44
Posted by Braidman (U11753668) on Thursday, 25th September 2008
Hello pinktequila
As I have said before about single issue campaigners: you have answered your own question by stating that you live beside one.
Naturally you want to preserve that one!
If you ever have seen the massive machines that cut the peat from the bogs in Russia and Southern Ireland and also I suppose Scotland for burning in power stations, you would not worry what some one else has said about destroying the bogs by what me as a gardener will use in my lifetime!
As for peat alternatives, take Coir, completly useless and expensive, transported a quarter of the way around the world, where it would have been better used to improve the local soil, except the locals do not use much of it, better to flog it to gullable westerners!
Greenpeace and FoE must be having nightmares about it's carbon footprint.
Gardening never was and never will be, being sensitive to the environment around us, it is a totally unnatural activity.
Because of work commitments I have been unable to get to my plot for 15 days or so, it was almost weed free before (well hoed) when I returned it was completly covered with chickweed!
If only my vegetables would grow like that!
As for Dog in a manger, you may not want to make use of it, but worse,you want to stop others being able to purchase it.
I have been in two garden centres and a B&Q store this past week, and quess what? they have bales of peat on sale once again! -
Message 45
Posted by greeneddy (U6603838) on Thursday, 25th September 2008
As I have said before about single issue campaigners: you have answered your own question by stating that you live beside one.Â
I always like to see a total non-sequitur before I go to sleep at night. Thanks, Braidman
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Message 46
Posted by William (U2169036) on Friday, 26th September 2008
Sounds a bit like Catch 22 to me.
Those who have reasons to campaign for a cause, loose the credibility to campaign for it because they are committed to it, and their arguments therefore are invalid.
So if you live next to a waste dump of mega pig sty, you loose the right to complain about the stench. If you live in England you loose the right to complain about English politics. And if you live on planet Earth you loose the right to campaign for anything related to it???
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Message 47
Posted by Ariadne Knickerbocker (U4534559) on Friday, 26th September 2008
I found all this really quite depressing. As someone who found Monty's stance somewhat intransigent on various gardening issues I believed that Toby might at least bring some balance back to gardening. Unfortunately Toby (and I) appear to have misjudged the intelligence and selflessness of many gardeners.
I don't use peat on principle and clearly foolishly believed this was now a general rule for the majority of people. I would have preferred Toby to say that he didn't use peat under any circumstances but my understanding is that he condoned its use under very limited conditions hoping that most people would have the intelligence to understand that wasn't a carte blanche for the general use of peat. But now we have people saying "what difference does the little bit that I use make compared with the industrial use of it".
Every tiny bit makes a difference and everybody needs to take their own responsibility for it. If everyone believes that there is never anything worth doing because the world is run by global agri-chemical companies or whatever then we might as well all just give up now. If two million individual gardeners find an alternative to using one small bag of peat each then that is a small part of a peatbog saved for a while. And if that means you can't grow citrus simply don't grow citrus!!
V MT -
Message 48
Posted by janerowena (U10782401) on Friday, 26th September 2008
I entirely agree. I havent bought peat for about 20 years now, and have managed to grow pretty much everything I have wanted to in compost and leaf-mould. I wouldn't want to own a plant that required vast quantities of peat to keep it alive. Some people, are quick to buy plants they don't understand purely becuse they like the look of it.
I have an acidic soil. The previous owners of this garden were bedding plants and dahlia lovers, but at some point they decided they wanted to grow azaleas and camellias. So I discovered that I have two huge plastic-lined and peat-filled craters in my garden, both of which were completely unnecessary. -
Message 49
Posted by pinktequila (U2803141) on Friday, 26th September 2008
I have never seen myself as a single issue campaigner. I don't give peat a second thought most of the time. I was just a tad upset that Toby Buckland was changing the ethos of Gardener's World by recommending its use. I don't think I have ever been a campaigner about much apart from a stint in CND during the 80s, when I didn't live anywhere near Greenham Common.
Yes of course I want to preserve the natural habitat on my doorstep, most would I am sure. But I don't think that means I cannot have relevant opinions on the extraction of Peat across the world.
I have been using coir for a few years now growing vegetables proffesionally with it. Apart from as slightly different watering regime no problems. My father was market gardener before the 1950s and never used Peat a compost was made from leaves and loam.
"Gardening never was and never will be, being sensitive to the environment around us" It is an unnatural activity yes, but to do it with success one needs to work in harmony with one's surroundings and environment and realise our individual actions have an effect outside our own little worlds.
People seem to get far too nasty and nitpicking on these boards, no wonder people are not so bothered about the Peat bogs!
Sorry didn't want to read back at what I had asked but what question have I answered by living next to a Peat bog? -
Message 50
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Friday, 26th September 2008
Peat bogs take millenia to form and on them depends a whole range of specific plants and insects and their munchers which will all be lost if peat bogs disappear. I think they need to be treasured. I haven't knowingly bought peat for about 25 years though I suspect it is present in most continental compost mixes which are not formulated like Levingtons or John Inees or sold as peat free.
Gardening has always been about the articicial management of a given set of resources from the plot site to the soil, stones, water and plants within it. I don't see why it can't be done responsibly with respect for the indigenous creatures and organisms and environment by consciously choosing the right plant for the right place ie one that likes the local conditions whether it hails from down the road or from China or some other continent with similar growing conditions.
I haven't heard of nice soggy peat bogs in Spain or other areas of the Med where lemons and other citrus grow happily so they must be able to grow in other media than peat. Nor do we need peat to condition soil when we can make our own garden compost and leaf mould. We can always chuck in some rhubarb leaves for extra acidity.
Just as we have banned the unlicensed removal of pebbles from beaches and riverbeds for use in gardens along with limestone from the upland pavements, so should the extraction of peat for trivial purposes be banned and alternative fuel sources found for electricity generation.
I want to hand on a healthy garden that sits wel in its local environment and that doesn't exist through causing damage to other more distant environments.
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