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Toby's new pond
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Message 1.Â
Posted by cotswoldwaller (U13935634) on Sunday, 26th April 2009
Great idea, but very difficult to get hold of raw materials. Such as - offcuts of motorway drainpipe, and stone to clad the surrounds.
Your description as to how to build a wall around the pond breaks all the rules of dry stone walling! In my opinion as a professional dry stone waller, the addition of compost and irrigation will weaken the construction to such an extent that it will collapse. Especially if we get frosts, as the damp material will expand and push the wall over.
I always advise my clients not to grow anything in a dry stone wall because I can therefore not guarantee its longevity.
Sorry to be a spoil sport but I'm only telling the truth! -
Message 2
Posted by David K (U2221642) on Sunday, 26th April 2009
That's perfectly correct and another example of dubious advice being given out.
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Message 3
Posted by toonia (U4760062) on Sunday, 26th April 2009
I think the horrorpond certainly merits a thread of its own.
Even if someone "gifted" me a bit of sewage pipe, how on earth would I get it home?
As already pointed out, the green and thrifty credentials of recycling a bit of rubbish were cancelled out by the money thrown at it to make it look like something you would want in your garden.
I fell asleep before the end but wondered how the sempervivum would cope with the overflow when the pond got too full. -
Message 4
Posted by Ariadne Knickerbocker (U4534559) on Sunday, 26th April 2009
I am still wondering how they are going to keep the water from going murky and smelly - particularly without having installed a pump to move the water around to. Surely it is going to stagnate? That is what happens with my 'pond in a tub' and despite having tried every possible 'waterclear' product it still goes green and murky within a few days of warm weather and the water will need changing every few weeks.
They didn't fit any drainage system on it so presumably won't be able to change the water. -
Message 5
Posted by Helen (U7966981) on Monday, 27th April 2009
I dread to think how much all that slate would cost, and the pond would not at all be practical to wildlife, as frogs would be unable to get in and out.
Maybe their pond is not expected to be anything other than a nice water-feature, but I think that the best part of encorporating a pond is the wildlife it will attract and sustain! -
Message 6
Posted by Trillium (U2170869) on Monday, 27th April 2009
We considered creating a round pond using a piece of motorway drainpipe for Tatton Show last year. I didn't see the programme, so I'm not sure what they used on GW, but we couldn't get hold of big diameter plastic pipe and the concrete stuff would have needed heavy - and very expensive - lifting equipment to transport and position.
We gave up on the idea and made our own circular pond out of bricks, a pond liner and render with a high waterproofing content in it. Worked just fine. -
Message 7
Posted by crouchee (U13371975) on Monday, 27th April 2009
Actually I have always planted things in my drystone retaining walls, as long as they are well battered back, just go easy on the valerian and don't allow any buddleia to self seed in it. Campanula portenschlagiana creeps through every cranny without moving a stone a millemetre.
Hi Trillium, how's the cracks in your thumbs? -
Message 8
Posted by TheHejhog (U7657776) on Monday, 27th April 2009
I always advise my clients not to grow anything in a dry stone wall because I can therefore not guarantee its longevity.Â
You have evidently never visited Donegal in Ireland where dry stone walls are overgrown with all manner of plants, trees even, and have remained standing for centuries. But don't let that put you off your cheap shot about so called bad advice given out by GW.
Hejhog -
Message 9
Posted by Bluedoyenne (U2341157) on Monday, 27th April 2009
TheHejhog, it might be helpful if you left the vitriol out of your posts. With such full-on attacks of those whose opinions you don't approve, you don't do yourself any favours and you'll never manage to enter into a balanced discussion with anyone on this board.
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Message 10
Posted by TheHejhog (U7657776) on Monday, 27th April 2009
I think some other posters have rather set the tone by posting quite ridiculous stuff about Gardener's World and its presenters. The OP, IMO, simply accuses Toby of giving out bad advice, which message 2 merely underlines. It's nit-picking, fault-finding, petty, whatever you want to call it. It's also quite tiring when you are looking for real advice, and it merely turns out to be yet another criticism of a TV programme.
I don't favour water features for one simple reason: they allow mosquitoes to breed in summer.
Hejhog -
Message 11
Posted by omegaLexa (U7472510) on Monday, 27th April 2009
I am no expert but surely everyone knows you need a slope on a pond for wildlife to get safely to the water for drinking etc?
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Message 12
Posted by Bluedoyenne (U2341157) on Monday, 27th April 2009
Constructive criticism is fine in my books but nit picking isn't because ultimately I feel it undermines the initial criticism, so I agree with you there. But, I've read elsewhere (not on any of these boards) criticism by horticultural professionals of advice TB has given on the programme, and even I raised my eyebrows a few times and questioned if what he was doing was correct. In short it is possible that some of the advice he is giving isn't spot on (and I think everyone on the board could give a different - valid - reason as to why that pond is a no-no which, hopefully, no poor soul will try to imitate).
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Message 13
Posted by The_Colonel (U13936630) on Monday, 27th April 2009
It's ok, the team have a nice new shed with a kettle so no need to slope the sides.
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Message 14
Posted by Stormy_Pink (U13912310) on Monday, 27th April 2009
TheHejhog (U7657776),
The poster crouchee you have just accused of taking cheap shots at GW is actually Gardener's World's Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú Gardener of the Decade. She has always been a very strong supporter of Gardener's World on these boards.
Isn't it about time you stopped being aggressive and rude to the other board members just becasue they have differenet opinions to your own? -
Message 15
Posted by TheHejhog (U7657776) on Monday, 27th April 2009
SGW,
I didn't respond to Crouchee's post and I agree with her on being able to plant in walls.
Actually I have always planted things in my drystone retaining wallsÂ
We are trying to recreate the Donegal-style overgrown wall in our back garden, and I will certainly check up on Crouchee's website. Thanks for the link.
Hejhog -
Message 16
Posted by nooj (U13729031) on Monday, 27th April 2009
I agree Save.
may I call you Save?
some of the aggression shown by lots of people has been OTT.
I know it's our flagship programme, but, just think, it's a TV programme after all.
I feel energy being sucked out of me every time i read some of the nastiness.
Energy we could all be using in the garden!
Shall we call a truce and get out in the garden?.
Until the next prog of course! -
Message 17
Posted by Stormy_Pink (U13912310) on Monday, 27th April 2009
That would be nice, all this aggressiveness is getting me down. There really is no need for it. I think the rain makes for grumpy gardeners
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Message 18
Posted by Stormy_Pink (U13912310) on Monday, 27th April 2009
Sorry nooj, yes you can call me Save if you like
Oh ek, 3 min rule, sigh....
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Message 19
Posted by Bluedoyenne (U2341157) on Monday, 27th April 2009
Hejhob, I read on the 'welcome mat' thread that your garden backs on to a National Trust reserve in NI, so your wall will be beautifully in context. It sounds lovely and I wish you luck with it.
Blue -
Message 20
Posted by welshcol (U2301689) on Monday, 27th April 2009
I do not know if Toby's pond was a tried and tested design but would have thought the first time they put the "designer irrigation" on ie hosepipe with some secateur cuts the packed in earth so carefully placed between the stones will be soon washing out the bottom!! or am I missing something?.
Have plants in a mini-dry stone wall 18 inches high and simply spray over occasionally and are more than happy.
Perhaps a case of GW trying a bit too... hard but still pick and choose the bits you want.
Some very valid and pertinent comments above about OTT responses to posts-not needed not called for and as with most gardening things are rarely black and white but various shades of grey.
Have you got some spare time to have a part time job at the UN ? they could do with some common sense being imparted to them. -
Message 21
Posted by David K (U2221642) on Monday, 27th April 2009
The OP, IMO, simply accuses Toby of giving out bad advice, which message 2 merely underlines. It's nit-picking, fault-finding, petty, whatever you want to call it.Â
Hejhog - As the person who posted message 2, let me explain that I merely agreed with contents of the thread...would you have preferred that I wrote a long epistle to explain why?
You know nothing at all about me, but let me assure you that I'm well enough versed in the subject of gardening to recognise Toby's gaffs. -
Message 22
Posted by pinktequila (U2803141) on Monday, 27th April 2009
It is not nitpicking and petty to find fault in a supposedly pros advice when it is wrong.
Whatever people might do to dry stone walls in their garden is is fundamentally wrong to plant into a stone wall because it will lose its strength and may move, however, in a garden much of what we do is faux and the same rules do not always apply. I haven't seen the programme yet but I guess from a dry stone waller's point of view there is little right about it, I understand though that a wall in a garden is not used in the same way as a field boundary and maybe no batter or coping is needed. (although I personally like to do things properly in my garden). There are however many other thongs wrong with the show at the moment for me to worry about a badly built wall. -
Message 23
Posted by TheHejhog (U7657776) on Monday, 27th April 2009
The advice is not dubious or wrong! In other parts of the British Isles soil-filled or back-filled overgrown drystone walls are very common - I mention the walls of West Donegal. They don't fall apart at the first frost and have been standing for centuries! Crouchee, whom I am told is a prize winning gardener, plants up her drystone walls. Perhaps Toby's is showing the viewers another way of doing stuff. Doing something different doesn't make it wrong, now does it?
Hejhog -
Message 24
Posted by TallyHo (U2364821) on Monday, 27th April 2009
The OP, IMO, simply accuses Toby of giving out bad advice, which message 2 merely underlines. It's nit-picking, fault-finding, petty, whatever you want to call it.Â
If it was an occasional lapse (about one per series) it would be understandable, but he managed another boo-boo in the same show sowing his wildflower meadow. Everyone knows you have to take the topsoil off before you sow flower seed or the grass will take over. He didn't mention the soil at all and he should have done.
It's not nit-picking, it's hard won experience. -
Message 25
Posted by pinktequila (U2803141) on Monday, 27th April 2009
Walls in Donegal ere not planted though. Over the years sediment has found its way where the small filling stones were and seeds have germinated. The walls are no longer used for the purpose they were built on the whole so have not been kept renovated. A lot of them are still standing which down to good building and despite all manner of plant growing within them. There is also lots of work going on to conserve the stone walls of Donegal which you can volunteer to help in because many are collapsing.
Most of them were built after the 1840s so not really centuries old either.
Anyway, I didn't have a problem with Gardeners not building retaining walls to last for centuries and emulating a wall which had things growing in it. Was Toby building a Donegal style dry stone wall? -
Message 26
Posted by mutebuttondelight (U3517782) on Monday, 27th April 2009
"Everyone knows you have to take the topsoil off before you sow flower seed or the grass will take over."
That's the thing - not everyone knows - I certainly didn't. I'm a newbie at this and as such, place great store on what the presenters say as to how to do things - so when they make what are, to experienced gardeners, *basic* mistakes, then it really doesn't bode well for newbies like me. It's the reason I watch & listen to gardening progammes - I want to do it properly. Yes, there have been some really basic errors made that even I can spot - but it seems there are errors made that I don't pick up on due to my inexperience. GW should be doing it *properly* and giving explanations of why it's done a particular way, not doing a 'skate over' the topic. -
Message 27
Posted by bookhimdano (U10771514) on Monday, 27th April 2009
imo ponds need to be a certain size to 'work' on their own otherwise it will be lots of work to maintain it. Given the size of the plot and the need for summer watering a good size pond would be in order where runoff rain water could collect?
maybe a japanese...like at compton acres -
Message 28
Posted by crouchee (U13371975) on Monday, 27th April 2009
don't worry hejhog, I know you weren't having a pop, it's just folks forget that messages and responses don't always go in order!
Use stones as big as you can carry for your wall and the plants won't shift it. My osteopath agrees with me. Good luck with your Donegal wall and post us a picture. -
Message 29
Posted by Yakram (U2443370) on Monday, 27th April 2009
Smelly water in ponds and water butts can be remedied with a very, very small addition of a few grains of potassium permanganate. The water should become a very pale pink, before resuming clarity after 24 hours; not harmful to plants. Plenty of oxygenating plants are essential to balance pond water.
Downspouts to Water butts should have a stocking tied over the 'drip into the water butt end' to collect debris, thus preventing nasty sludge at the bottom of the butt. The stocking should be cleaned out every quarter. -
Message 30
Posted by TheHejhog (U7657776) on Tuesday, 28th April 2009
Hi Pink
Most damage to walls is done by irresponsible land owners - neglecting them and taking a digger to them, or drink drivers smashing into them. I agree that they were not planted up to start with, but as you say they are solid, and can take a tree or two sprouting through them. Most walls in the area of Donegal I am familiar with seem to predate the famine, because they are in areas no longer habited or farmed.
After the walls were built the fields were fertilised with sea weed and over the years a rich layer of organic matter has built up behind the wall, allowing for a rich variety of plants to grow. Garden escapees do equally well.
The picture shows walls that have been grazed extensively by sheep and are mostly overgrown with grass:
Contrast these to the Mourne walls, which are boulders carefully stacked, but leaving large gaps.
Nothing grows on them, except for lichen and moss.
Neither type of wall is as neat and tidy as those found in England.
Hejhog -
Message 31
Posted by anothergardener (U12312247) on Tuesday, 28th April 2009
sowing his wildflower meadow. Everyone knows you have to take the topsoil off before you sow flower seed or the grass will take over. He didn't mention the soil at all and he should have done.Â
I hate to intervene on TB's behalf, but I don't think he was sowing a wildflower meadow. I think it was this, which has been developed to give a similar effect but using a wide variety of species, not necessarily native.
People are finding fault with the pond for lots of different technical reasons, can't we just hate it because it's hideous? -
Message 32
Posted by David K (U2221642) on Tuesday, 28th April 2009
Personally I don't think it /is/ necessary to remove the top soil...what a task!
It depends on the state of the soil in question, as wildflowers survive better in impoverished soil.
Certainly manure or fertilizers shouldn't be used. -
Message 33
Posted by cotswoldwaller (U13935634) on Tuesday, 28th April 2009
Reply to Hejhog
I'd love to visit Donegal and view your walls. Perhaps you don't get the severe weather we sometimes get in the Cotswolds and other 'walled' areas. Or are the walls in Donegal like Cornwall? Different thing altogether.
cotswoldwaller -
Message 34
Posted by TheHejhog (U7657776) on Wednesday, 29th April 2009
Define "severe".
Donegal is exposed to high winds from the Atlantic (hence the many windfarms) and more rain than practically anywhere else in the British isles. Along the coast, "warmed" by the Gulfstream, it is usually mild with few frosts. The Donegal Highlands, however, get good snow cover in winter:
Do visit! It is quite amazing when the sun comes out. For the gardeners the gardens at Glenveagh Castle are a must-see. And when you look up you can see Golden Eagle between the mountain tops. I prefer the gardens of Glebe House, Churchill; it also has an art gallery and a fine café.
Hejhog -
Message 35
Posted by Ariadne Knickerbocker (U4534559) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
Hello - interesting though the stone wall posts have been could we return to the original topic please.
The host has asked for all responses to be sensible
so please you check before you post that you haven't said something silly otherwise the thread may get closed again.
To sum up the main fears about Toby's pond
a) The slates used around the outside would have been costly and the loose ones around the top posed a danger of unspecified people and animals falling in
b) There was no exit for wildlife should it fall in
c) My personal experience is that ponds/water features are quite difficult to keep clear even with the use of various clearing agents which I have tried over the years. Oxygenation appears to be key but my pump system has never achieved this effect and keeping it running all day and night is not eco-friendly in terms of electricity use. (Also the pumps don't seem to last more than a year). Is planting oxygenating pond plants the only answer to this and how are these cared for because the three I put in last year all died.
Could the GW team give sensible answers to these questions in a future episode. -
Message 36
Posted by nooj (U13729031) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
I've been thinking for ages, and I don't feel that sensible.
What about a bit of wire netting or a piece of wood, for fallen in things to get a grip on?
The wood bits are what i have done to let things climb out of my dustbin water holders.
Not very pretty, but what price a life? -
Message 37
Posted by Stormy_Pink (U13912310) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
It's funny how on Gardener's World they can be all silly and banter away at each other, giggle on the sofa, wave inflatable parrots around, drive ice cream vans and introduce gnome cams, but when we are talking about the show we are told we must be sensible otherwise our threads will be closed down
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Message 38
Posted by nooj (U13729031) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
Now Save, be sensible or a big nasty host will come and hit you on the head with an inflatable parrot!
If the cameras aren't rolling there will be gossip and wondering and another conspiracy theory.
Be sensible -
Message 39
Posted by Stormy_Pink (U13912310) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
Sorry nooj, I don't know what came over me.
I must be sensible. I must be sensible. Anyone would think Auntie beeb was in a bad mood or something
On topic is what they want, well OK.
I think the pond is dreadful. No 'ordinary' soul could afford that much slate, I wanted to edge my pond with slate until I saw the prices
The pond is deep and there was no discussion about the dangers of children, pets and wildlife being able to drown in it. I would't want it anywhere near my garden.
All in all I thought it was a throughly dissapointing effort that I suspect no one will ever recreate, what a waste of resouces and time filming it.
Totally pointless and extermely dangerous.
I would have much prefered a slot on how to put in a pond from scratch that showed perhaps small and medium sized ponds (or the pro's and cons of a flexible pond liner Vs a rigid moulded one), one on a low budget and perhaps one for people that may have more money to spend on a water feature.
A little bit about the benefit of attracting wildlife to your garden with a pond wouldn't have gone amiss either.
Why on earth after announcing the previous week that naff water features were deffinately not HOT did they build this costly monstrosity?
Is that sensible enough for you? -
Message 40
Posted by dwarfbean (U13754109) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
SGW
That is eminently sensible. Well done!
Auntie Beeb will be very proud.
dwarfbean -
Message 41
Posted by nooj (U13729031) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
Auntie Nooj is very proud of you as well.
It's so nice to see a sensible post.
It's what we all deam of, of course -
Message 42
Posted by Stormy_Pink (U13912310) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
Thank you Dwarfbean and Auntie Nooj
I do hope that in the future GW will give more consideration to such features. There seems to have been an element of gross negligence with this pond and the health and safety issues concerning it. -
Message 43
Posted by pootles magnet (U11709665) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
You know I enjoyed the pond feature - it wasn't a project I'm planning to slavishly recreate, but it was one of those things that I found inspirational because it set my mind whirring. It's made me think about using recycled objects and how even if something isn't intrinsically water-tight, one could use a liner to transform it. For inspiration and food for thought it hit the spot for me!
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Message 44
Posted by Ariadne Knickerbocker (U4534559) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
I'm glad everyone is making non-silly contributions to this it is rather important in terms of H&S.
I think you are right pootles - there are all sorts of things I had never previously thought of that could be turned into ponds. I was wondering about one of those giant jelly molds in the shape of a bunny rabbit. Do you think that would work? -
Message 45
Posted by pootles magnet (U11709665) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
Well, thanks for your sarcastic and unpleasant response. I don't believe I said anything rude or argumentative, I merely offered some alternative thoughts. I don't see any reason why I should get a nasty response to it.
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Message 46
Posted by Ariadne Knickerbocker (U4534559) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
OOps sorry Pootles. I really didn't mean to be sarcastic to you. You certainly didn't say anything rude or argumentative and I certainly didn't mean to be rude to you! I thought your post was quite valid and interesting but my reply was aimed at some of the earlier posts.
Very contrite...... -
Message 47
Posted by kath74 (U8999103) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
Don't be offended pootles, Carmen is just being silly. Being told to be sensible has that effect on some people.
SGW, all very well said but I think I agree with this
can't we just hate it because it's hideous? -
Message 48
Posted by ArtemisHP (U12217956) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
can't we just hate it because it's hideous?Â
Yes, WE CAN!
And
Yes, We Do. -
Message 49
Posted by Stormy_Pink (U13912310) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
Indeed
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Message 50
Posted by ArtemisHP (U12217956) on Thursday, 30th April 2009
..frogs would be unable to get in and out.Â
Perhaps Jo, in order to help his brilliant colleague, will come up with the idea of installing a lift????????
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