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CONCRETE

• Message 1. 

  Posted by highestgardener (U14138687) on Thursday, 17th September 2009

  Is Joe Swift sponsored by a concrete manufacturer? In the Tropical Garden at Berryfields we watched a raised wooden walkway being supported on short low posts concreted into the ground. A few weeks ago in the Beach Garden at Greenacre a series of oak posts (posts than didn't have to take any sideways strain) were similarly concreted in. And then, to cap it all, last week we saw Joe concreting in a garden table!
  When a farmer puts in a wooden gatepost he puts one third of it in the ground and then packs the soil back around the post, a bit at a time, using an old length of 4x2 or similar. He then hangs a 12foot or longer metal gate on one side, often unsupported at the other end, and if done properly the post doesn't move. It doesn't move for years. When the post eventually rots he digs out the rotten wood and plants another post.
  Joe's posts, even if they are made of oak, will rot one day and some poor devil is going to have to dig some large lumps of concrete out of the ground. If that garden table needs to be moved, a crane will be required!
  Viewers should be told that concrete is not environmentally friendly and doesn't like to be moved. Packed earth is just as effective, and in poorly drained soil I would recommend 3 inches of gravel at the bottom of the hole.
  

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Stressed out (U11163734) on Thursday, 17th September 2009

  Packed earth is no substitute for concrete especially on exposed sites.
  Most of the farmers I know use concrete to put in gate posts because if they need to get them out at any stage you just use a tractor or a JCB.
  Posts tend to rot more if packed with earth as they stay wet.
  I don't care if concrete is not environmentally friendly it does the job. Also making cement creates jobs in quarry's, jobs in the factory and jobs in transporting it. At this time this is slightly more important than the insignificant effect it has on environment.
  

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by scottishmarigold (U13943792) on Thursday, 17th September 2009

  Eh?

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by SilverGalanthus (U13903849) on Monday, 21st September 2009

  I don't care if concrete is not environmentally friendly it does the job. Also making cement creates jobs in quarry's, jobs in the factory and jobs in transporting it. At this time this is slightly more important than the insignificant effect it has on environment. 
  
  RC - a sad sentiment indeed. I think it is absolutely vital that the fight for environmentalism and the ecological future of this planet goes hand in hand with the fight to save jobs and people's livelihoods, otherwise the whole green movement is in danger of becoming little more than an exercise in liberal hand-wringing.
  
  So whilst I do understand your assertion that people need jobs and trades etc, this doesn't necessarily mean we can or even should exploit natural resources to the point of saturation and exhaustion. Both jobs and the environment will suffer badly as a result.
  
  And I think we can safely assume that the concrete market is not going to collapse because gardeners choose to firm their posts into the soil rather than concrete them in.
  
  SG

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Monday, 21st September 2009

  I have used the metpost system extensively in our garden as a means of supporting fence and trellis posts. However, the winds here can be so fierce that one fence of 6 trellis panels which divide the beggies form teh rest ended up leaning drunkenly and unattractively. We had to use ropes, tightened each week for several weeks, to haul them back to a vertical position and have now dug out holes on the leeward side of each post and used concrete to hold the posts vertical. All recent posts have been concreted in.

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by David K (U2221642) on Monday, 21st September 2009

  I agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread.
  Concreting wooden posts into the ground creates a weak spot immediately above the concrete. This is because the concrete prevents water draining away and thus the posts soon rot just above the ground.
  

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Monday, 21st September 2009

  Not if you slope the concrete so water runs off away from the wood.

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by David K (U2221642) on Tuesday, 22nd September 2009

  Not if you slope the concrete so water runs off away from the wood. 
  
  Quite so, (in fact I intended to say so in my previous message) and to his credit, Joe Swift pointed this out during the programme.
  Having said that, ask most fencing companies and they will tell you that they have not concreted wooden posts into the ground for the past 25 years.
  

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by Stressed out (U11163734) on Tuesday, 22nd September 2009

  David K
  
  If the posts are correctly treated rather than just shown preserver in a tin then they will outlast you. We get all our posts from our local wood yard who dip them for me for at least a month in the tanks. Not had any problems with rot.
  As for the 'fencing' firms most of them are cowboys and will pack with earth to save time and money. A couple of years ago we had to separate a piece of land we had bought quite quickly and I got a fencing firm in. A year later we had to remove all the poor quality posts and replace them and put them back in again properly with concrete. I was not happy because it was a 500' run and I would have been better doing it myself in the first place.
  We quite regularly have to replace cheap 'fencing' put in by cowboys. Minimum post size we use is 4" x 4" with at least 1/3 in the ground.

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by pinktequila (U2803141) on Tuesday, 22nd September 2009

  I use concrete or postcrete for gate posts and my washing line post. Other tha that I use the tension of wire and other braces to hold things up.

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Wednesday, 23rd September 2009

  I regularly construct fences for a living - I've been out doing it today - all my posts are concreted in - it is the only good and proper job, everything else is a bodge. Concrete at the correct consistency fills the hole perfectly in a manner nothing else can and sets like rock.
  
  I have never had a fence blow over or fall down through age even though some of the first ones I did must be over thirty years old by now. Many of my fences keep animals in too and stand horses rubbing their itches. Farmers had a habit of using rammed hardcore around posts because basically they are skinflints and too mean to go buy the proper material even if they have £100,000 combine in the shed. Most of my local farmers use a tractor mounted post hammer in erecting their fences and in consequence they look like unravelling knitting stretched across the fields!
  
  It's a mistake to think the concrete around the post bottom is fully waterproof - it rarely is and besides most posts I dig out were sat on the earth at the bottom of the hole rather than concrete. I've only ever used Tanalised or similar pressure treated timber.
  
  And don't start me on those metal spikey things!!! The worst kind of do-it-yourself rubbish - they bend, they skid off stones and twist - you should be ashamed to even think about using them - dig the damn hole!
  
  When I see the pathetic attempts at handiwork on Gardener's World I have to make sure there's a good sized glass of relaxing liquid in my hand - all the presenters are complete incompetants. Luckily though - by the look of the wall in Green Acres - Birmingham is still blessed by many a decent tradesman.

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by David K (U2221642) on Wednesday, 23rd September 2009

  Not '1stClassAlan' for nothing then.

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• Message 13

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Wednesday, 23rd September 2009

  1CA - I've been reluctant to dig holes here because we once found an unexploded land mine, plus I have a dodgy back so the metposts seemed a good solution but,as you say, they twist and move? Now OH, who is well insured, gets to dig holes and pour concrete in while I hold a tanalised post vertical using a spirit level which he somehow can't seem to master.
  
  Just can't get the staff these days.

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• Message 14

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by the cycling gardener (U2350416) on Thursday, 24th September 2009

  Having said that, ask most fencing companies and they will tell you that they have not concreted wooden posts into the ground for the past 25 years. 
  
  I go into so many gardens where the wobbly fences are falling down as a result. Its in their interests to ensure repeat business! We always concrete posts into the ground otherwise fences forever need replacing because of wind damage, or some inconsiderate neighbour's monstrous climbing thug of a plant pushes them over.

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• Message 15

  , in reply to message 13.

  Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Wednesday, 28th October 2009

  posted by Obelixx
  
  1CA - I've been reluctant to dig holes here because we once found an unexploded land mine,  
  
  No problem - in a previous life I used to be a Royal Engineer ! I had a beer with some modern bomb disposal guys recently and they gave me one of their printed tee shirts which says :- Explosive Expert - If you see me running try and keep up.
  
  .

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• Message 16

  , in reply to message 15.

  Posted by Paul N (U6451125) on Wednesday, 28th October 2009

  Alan
  
  Royal Engineer? Me too. 24147160.

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• Message 17

  , in reply to message 16.

  Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Thursday, 29th October 2009

  Very drole 1CA. Given my bad back I don't do running. My dad was an RE in the war - joined up at 17 in 1939 and ended up building bridges in Palestine after the war. He loved gardening too.

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