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Time to Resurrect Percy Thrower?
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Wednesday, 23rd September 2009
I get the gist that most posters bemoan the changes to Gardener's World - celebrities and presenters seemingly chosen for their incompetence and annoying habits - even the sainted Geoff came in for some criticism before he was beattified by an early and sad death.
Of course old Percy also annoyed a lot of folk - on he'd come - talking down to you from on pompously high - but he did know his stuff and if he brought someone on to the programme - he was an expert too. These were the guys who talked of horticultural excellence - don't forget most of them would have started in the era of head gardeners not being worthy of the name unless they could grow a Pineapple for the table up at the big house.
Now who is there to fill their carefully dubbined boots ?
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Message 2
Posted by diggings (U14131230) on Thursday, 22nd October 2009
Hi, 1stclassAlan [are you a postman?]
Yes, agree with your comments, and there is something completely fascinating about listening to real experts [on any subject.]Some presenters seem to only know gardening by numbers [as in, did you know this fact etc?]but there has been a general dumbing down of every programme not just gardening ones in the last few years. I'm not all [that] old, but it seems obvious. -
Message 3
Posted by Trillium (U2170869) on Thursday, 22nd October 2009
Humbly at your service, Sir Alan.
Some kind of cliche seems to be in order here: 'Fortune favours the brave...' 'A coward dies a thousand deaths...' etc.
OK then, get stuck the knives out - there's more where that came from...
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Message 4
Posted by Colin (U2252951) on Thursday, 22nd October 2009
Peter Thoday and Harry Dodson made the most informative gardening programmes ever done by the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú.
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Message 5
Posted by Stressed out (U11163734) on Thursday, 22nd October 2009
JJ
Yes the greatest programmes ever made.
Perhaps the production team could watch them sometimes to see where they are going wrong every week. -
Message 6
Posted by Ken Smart (U1158196) on Friday, 23rd October 2009
OK then, get stuck the knives out - there's more where that came from...
Ìý
I doubt if there'll be many knives out. I looked at the clips, and thoroughly enjoyed them, but I was left wondering for what purpose they were created. I'm sure you've already explained this, but I can't recall. Are these clips currently being shown on a TV channel, or are they to promote your own business, or are you making a pitch to get into the 'mainstream'? For what it's worth, the clips I've seen are far more relevant to me than anything I last saw on GW, and I look forward to seeing a good few more. Ken. -
Message 7
Posted by SparklyTwirler (U14172124) on Friday, 23rd October 2009
Why does a certain element in this country always live in the past and criticise anything and everything from the present?
I understand that things always seem to be perfect in our own personal heyday ( why old people always prefer music from their youth ) but surely we ought to want to distance ourselves from the condescending and class ridden ways of the early tv gardeners, with their suits and ties and talking down to us as if we were minions? As my 90 yr old father says "There were no good old days for us working classes - only the toffs" Get the rose tinted spec off and come into the 21st century.
P.S. I am a pensioner myself. -
Message 8
Posted by PenylanSue (U13901201) on Friday, 23rd October 2009
Hi Trillium, loved the Youtube clips. I'm sure we'll see you GW yet.
But you might like to know that the talk I attended by a tree expert/ surgeon the other evening about correct pruning (which took well over an hour) said as an aside that the modern idea of planting trees is in a square hole. Something to do with the roots not going round in circles no matter how big the hole was in the first place. Apparently the moment they reach a different texture the roots will follow the least line of resistance and by making them follow a straight line into a corner it changes their habit. Think that was it.
Anyway, the point I'm making is that like your stake and tie, developments are made all the time in horticulture.
I also discovered at another talk given by Martin Blow who has the national collection of Day Lilies that it is not necessary to remove the spent flowers to keep the flowers going. And I've spent ages doing just that in the past. The only benefit, he says, is that you may remove the gall midge damaged buds if you'd missed them before. -
Message 9
Posted by happytobyfan (U13663471) on Friday, 23rd October 2009
<QUOTE> even the sainted Geoff came in for some criticism before he was beattified by an early and sad death.</QUOTE> <BR /><BR />I've only seen Geoff Hamilton on Sky repeats of his programmes (which I loved) but have wondered many times, when reading all the flak that presenters now get on these message boards,if computers had been as widely used in his time, as they are now, whether he would have come in for as much critisism. I like Toby, I also like watching Carol - and even Alyce (despite the fact that I hate veg and she seems to concentrate mainly on that) - but I get the feeling that whoever is on the programme, there will always be someone who doesn't like them. <BR /><BR />I also loved watching Alan Titchmarsh. The only one who completely turned me off Gardeners' World was Monty Don with his dogmatic preaching - and obsession with fruit and veg - as opposed to the balanced programme that we had, before he took over. <BR /><BR />Maybe it's a case of 'you can't please all of the people all of the time'. <BR /><BR /><QUOTE>Of course old Percy also annoyed a lot of folk - on he'd come - talking down to you from on pompously high - but he did know his stuff and if he brought someone on to the programme - he was an expert too. These were the guys who talked of horticultural excellence - don't forget most of them would have started in the era of head gardeners not being worthy of the name unless they could grow a Pineapple for the table up at the big house.</Quote><BR /><BR />I don't know what kind of gardening background Geoff had, or how much training, but I think I'm right in saying that Toby has a wealth of training, knowldege and experience behind him.<BR /><BR />
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Message 10
Posted by happytobyfan (U13663471) on Friday, 23rd October 2009
Oops - done it again - should have closed the quotation thingy before I typed this last paragraph !!!
"I don't know what kind of gardening background Geoff had, or how much training, but I think I'm right in saying that Toby has a wealth of training, knowldege and experience behind him." -
Message 11
Posted by Trillium (U2170869) on Friday, 23rd October 2009
Ken - now I may be something of a shameless opportunist when it comes to PR, but even I would draw the line at hiring a film crew to make videos of me....
The videos are for Channel M, Manchester's TV station. The crew come round once every six weeks or so. I set up six topics for them to film and they are broadcast on Mondays between 4 and 7. They are great fun to do and I'm in complete control of content and script.
Penylan Sue - I'm aware of the square hole debate. I think in light soils, and where you are backfilling with the same soil so there is no marked change when the roots get to the hole edge, I don't think it makes any difference. And I just happen to like digging circular holes! -
Message 12
Posted by PenylanSue (U13901201) on Friday, 23rd October 2009
Hi Trillium, I wasn't getting at you in any way there and I think you did a fantastic job with that tree that would teach any newcomer to gardening exactly what to do. Yes you're right about your lovely soil but most containerised trees wouldn't be going into anything like the soil they'd been grown in. I was trying to make the point that research into horticulture is going on all the time and we have to embrace new ideas sometimes, like the point I made about dead heading Day Lilies.
Sue -
Message 13
Posted by Trillium (U2170869) on Friday, 23rd October 2009
I didn't think you were being in the least bit critical, PS, (and I wouldn't have minded if you were!). I love to read about new ideas and to try them too! For instance, I think these air-pruning systems for containerised trees are a fantastic development to stop root encircling. I wonder whether they'll be introduced more widely, for smaller shrubs say.
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Message 14
Posted by Ariadne Knickerbocker (U4534559) on Friday, 23rd October 2009
I hate to tell everyone this but dear old Percy died some years ago. Don't think we can dig him up now.
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Message 15
Posted by Stressed out (U11163734) on Friday, 23rd October 2009
<quote>Eva Brick
I hate to tell everyone this but dear old Percy died some years ago. Don't think we can dig him up now. <quote>
I am sure you could create a digital 'Percy' or a cross between him and Max Headroom. Now that would be worth seeing, very 21st Century -
Message 16
Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Wednesday, 28th October 2009
posted by Trillium
Humbly at your service, Sir Alan.
www.youtube.com/watc...
Some kind of cliche seems to be in order here: 'Fortune favours the brave...' 'A coward dies a thousand deaths...' etc.
OK then, get stuck the knives out - there's more where that came from...
www.youtube.com/watc...
Ìý
Well...... I think this girl ( yep, I'm that old ) did quite a good job - right up to moment she started to tease out the roots of that tree - my pet hate!
A tree - or for that matter - any plant, wants to grow, there's no such thing as a moody plant or one in need of pyschoanalysis! So as soon as it senses it's been planted out in the big wide world - it puts out new roots. The idea that new roots will continue to go round in circles because it's been in a pot - IS UTTERLY RIDICULOUS! Now, of course, the old round and round roots will stay exactly as they are because they cannot unwind themselves but will be eventually superceded by new roots that migrate outwards as rootlets to expand later.
If a plant stagnates in the hole you plant it in - and may be give rise to the impression that the roots are bound round - there's (a) something wrong with it (b) something's wrong with the soil where you've planted it.
I spent 7 years as a nurseryman - tenderly raising plants and then 30 more as an expert showman in which ever more cunning plans were used to avoid any kind of check to growth - now, I can't think of a better check to growth than scuffing up all the feeding roots that will be on the outside of the root ball in a pot! Mein Gott!!!
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Message 17
Posted by Trillium (U2170869) on Wednesday, 28th October 2009
To tease or not to tease? That is the question.
On GW on Friday the RHS shrubs expert put my minimal root teasing efforts to shame - he teased out all of the roots till there was no obvious pot-shaped root ball left. My instints are with him, I must say, having lifted rather too many plants out of gardens with a virtually intact original rootball and a few feeble outgrowths.
Wonder if there have been any randomised trials on the subject? -
Message 18
Posted by Goldilocks (U2169760) on Friday, 30th October 2009
I'm with you on this, Trillium. I have found the same where I have planted shrubs that had lots of roots running round the side of the pot, without teasing them out. When I lifted poorly performing shrubs a couple of years later I would often find thick roots contorted round one another, sometimes like a pigtail. I reckon they have just continued to grow in the habit they developed in the pot.
It's even more important where you are planting into heavy clay soil. I now dig a hole at least twice as wide as the pot, loosen my clay soil and mix it with some planting compost, and tease out the roots where the rootball looks a bit congested. I have replanted some of the poor doers that I had lifted up, having done my best to cut away or untangle roots and reduce the shrub, and they usually perform much better. I have just done this with a poorly performing young sorbus, and look forward to seeing it revitalised next year. -
Message 19
Posted by Paul N (U6451125) on Saturday, 31st October 2009
So Percy 'annoyed a lot of folk' and Monty is accused of 'dogmatic preaching'. Funny that, I never ever thought that for a moment. I simply took great enjoyment in listening and learning from two exceptional gardeners and broadcasters.
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Message 20
Posted by Goldilocks (U2169760) on Saturday, 31st October 2009
I didn't find Percy annoying, just a very dull presenter. I have attended lectures by experts who sent me to sleep, even though what they had to say was very worthwhile. A modern day Percy on GW might go down well with established gardeners who are willing to bear with his TV manner, but I couldn't imagine newbies watching for more than two minutes before reaching for the 'Off' button.
Monty was a good presenter and was well worth listening to, but I was incensed by his dogmatic approach to 100% organic gardening, no alternatives even mentioned (eg glyphosate). There are many gardeners who for one reason or another (health, time,location of the problem) can't dig out bindweed, for example.
GW is THE national gardening TV programme. It was his personal policy, not the Beeb's. By all means do so in a magazine article or in one of his books. He had no right to impose his dogma on all licence payers. -
Message 21
Posted by ArtemisHP (U12217956) on Saturday, 31st October 2009
..now I may be something of a shameless opportunist when it comes to PR..Ìý
Is this the latest euphemism? I had always thought that was called self-promotion... -
Message 22
Posted by SparklyTwirler (U14172124) on Saturday, 31st October 2009
Percy Thrower was D.U.L.L and Monty Don was an opportunist who used the programme to dogmatically champion one approach to gardening, whilst ignoring alternatives.Toby Buckland is an improvement on both - but he is not as charasmatic as either Geoff Hamilton nor Alan Titchmarsh. Take your pick - they're are dvds of them all ( possibly not PT )
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Message 23
Posted by ArtemisHP (U14198065) on Monday, 2nd November 2009
..Monty Don was an opportunist who used the programme to dogmatically champion..Ìý
I believe that taking the opportunity to CHAMPION a cause, involves ethics.
When you engage in self-promotion, does not. -
Message 24
Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Thursday, 5th November 2009
posted by Trillium
To tease or not to tease? That is the question.
On GW on Friday the RHS shrubs expert put my minimal root teasing efforts to shame - he teased out all of the roots till there was no obvious pot-shaped root ball left. My instints are with him, I must say, having lifted rather too many plants out of gardens with a virtually intact original rootball and a few feeble outgrowths.
Wonder if there have been any randomised trials on the subject? Ìý
Now, go back and read my previous post again.
If you dig up a plant some years after removing it pot bound from a container and its roots are still in that shape - it was either a very poor plant or the soil you planted in it was bad.
Of course, there are some plants that quite enjoy being cramped and will not stray far from the planting hole - these will still thrive even you concrete them in to a small excavation - but I'm not talking about that type in general.
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Message 25
Posted by Trillium (U2170869) on Friday, 6th November 2009
I read your post perfectly clearly Alan.
Your experience tells you that a healthy plant, planted into good soil will root properly even if it starts life somewhat pot bound.
My experience, (less than yours, I accept) is that these pot bound roots stay in place and get thicker as the plant grows, producing a tangle of gnarled roots immediately under the plant and hindering the flow of water and nutrients to the plant above ground. Yes, they send out some new roots too but I think the root pattern and plant stability is much better if they are untangled before planting.
Anyway - I accept that it's a matter of personal experience and opinion - not right and wrong - there are lots of areas in horticulture where practices differ with perfectly good results.
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