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Apple pips

• Message 1. 

  Posted by Paull2 (U14064177) on Monday, 2nd January 2012

  I have 4 standard sized apple trees, probably 80 years old, and I believe an unusual variety for the UK, Newtown Pippin, a US variety. I want to grow some rootstock from these using pips, then after a couple of years, graft cuttings from the trees to obtain, in theory, a true standard size reproduction. First, is this feasible?Obtaining successful cuttings has never worked for me. Second, how best to germinate the pips? I have a number in a fridge from last November (to chill them), also there are still plenty of windfall apples to access still. Do they really need chilling? And can I use a propagator for a 'quick start'?

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• Message 2

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  Posted by Swedboy (U14400604) on Monday, 2nd January 2012

  I was lead to believe by my biology teaches that you can't plant apple pips because they are either sterile or not true to seed due to them having odd sets of chromosomes. The first is probably your main hurdle. If you get germination, won't it be several years before you can start grafting your tree. Doubt any of my speculations will help you much.

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• Message 3

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  Posted by BaraGwenith (U14257539) on Monday, 2nd January 2012

  You are right. They will germinate OK but you won't get a tree of merit. Though of course Bramley Seedling is a chance seedling that made good! All the different varieties came from crossing originally, but I think the breeders grow hundreds of plants to find a good one.
  
  You will probably end up with the sort of rubbishy apple usually found in a hedgerow.
  
  Presumably you did not control the pollination of the seeds. Are you sure you know the parentage of the seeds?
  
  Newton Pippin is not really an unusual variety. It was one of the first exported to this country from America.
  
  Have you looked on the Brogdale site, and trawled the fruit nurseries?
  
  

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• Message 4

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  Posted by BaraGwenith (U14257539) on Monday, 2nd January 2012

  I recommend the Orange Pippin site too. Your apple is there, with biographical details.

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• Message 5

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  Posted by whatalottie (U9072847) on Monday, 2nd January 2012

  Apples don't come true from seed.
  
  You might try a bud graft. They're not too difficult, and if you do several on the same 'tree' at least one of them is likely to take. Bud grafting is one of the ways commerial growers increase a variety.
  
  I've just googles bud graft and tere is an excellant video on T-bud and chip bud grafting techniques.
  
  
  
  I don't know where you'd get a tree to use as rootstock, but I'd be inclind to use an apple tree from Aldi, Lidle or Morrisons; not that they aren't good trees themselves, sometimes they are, but the rootstock will be good, just choose one with a good long stem before the new variety was grafted on, you can see fairly easily. Make sure that it's growing quite well before you try the graft, it'll be several months between buying the 'aldi' tree and the best time for grafting so it should have settled down!
  
  Have fun, do let us know how you get on.
  
  Good luck,
  Lottie
  
  

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• Message 6

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  Posted by Paull2 (U14064177) on Tuesday, 3rd January 2012

  Many thanks for the comments. Yes, I know that fruit trees grown from seeds will not 'come true'. My quest is to produce standard size rootstock to, hopefully, reproduce the big old trees I've got before they die off. Over several years, many cuttings never tookso I am interested in the seed route to rootstock. (Optimistic long term project !)
  I read somewhere (from a professional grower) that the pips needed to go into a fridge for a few months to help germinate them, but then I hear of other people just planting pips, and bingo! Yes, I could try grafting to a supermarket bramley (ie non-grafted itself) but then it starts to get expensive if I want to experiment with a dozen or so.

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• Message 7

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  Posted by BaraGwenith (U14257539) on Tuesday, 3rd January 2012

  I would be surprised if a supermarket Bramley is not grafted. It would be too big for most gardens if it was not.
  
  I am sure if you research or enquire of Brogdale you will track down someone selling suitable rootstock. If you also look at the database which is reached through the Brogdale site you will see that your Newtown Pippin has many, many synonyms.
  
  It is unlikely that your pips would be a suitable rootstock. It just does not work like that! Remember that it is the rootstock that governs the size of tree. Even if your pips came true they might produce a mighty big tree. The large orchards like Brogdale and Wisley, etc grow their apples on a rootstock that limits the size of the trees.

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• Message 8

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  Posted by Paull2 (U14064177) on Tuesday, 3rd January 2012

  Thanks. I did have a quote a year ago from a nursery prepared to graft scions @ £28 per go onto M25 rootstock. The process would take at least two years. Apart from the expense, I really wanted to monitor progress myself rather than just have successful trees delivered in 2016 or something! Anyway, I'll have a go with the pips this year, barmy or not.. It's what it's all about isn't it?

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• Message 9

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  Posted by BaraGwenith (U14257539) on Tuesday, 3rd January 2012

  Absolutely! Go for it!
  
  For your next project choose something that gives results in less than 10 years!

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• Message 10

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  Posted by Swedboy (U14400604) on Tuesday, 3rd January 2012

  Ok. This might be a silly idea but would it be worth trying to graft cuttings on your own trees just to learn the technique? It might save time at the end.

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• Message 11

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  Posted by Berghill (U2333373) on Tuesday, 3rd January 2012

  As said trees from pips is not really going to help you as the results may not produce stock good enough to graft on and in any case you are talking 5 years or so to reach a reasonable size for grafting on.
  There is a solution, possibly. We have a fair few trees on different rootstocks, but mostly on dwarfing ones. After the hurricane of a few years ago when some of them were blown over, we discover that we now have suckers with roots coming from below the graft union. I have taken these off before they overtake the proper tree. For my own amusement I have grown some of them on to try grafting. So, why not see if you can find someone with suckers coming from a rootstock and go from there?

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