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Elizabeth in the Garden
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Wednesday, 30th September 2009
This is about the Elizabethan Garden at Kenilworth castle, the book 'Elizabeth in the Garden', and the Golden Age.
First, may I just say that I know nothing about history, and so, as usual, I will be making all this up, as I go along.
The Elizabethan Garden at Kenilworth Castle has recently had a 2.1M makeover from English Heritage. I visited recently and put a few snaps on the Garden Visits thread. I also got a book from the local library, about Elizabeth and the garden. This one:
The best introduction to the garden at Kenilworth is a 5-minute video, made by English Heritage. It's well worth a peep:
Elizabeth had an interest all things horticultural throughout her life; in the language of flowers, in botany (such as it was), and in herbal medicine. The final paragraph in the book says 'When I picture Elizabeth, I see her not crowned on a throne in a palace, but in a garden'.
The book describes the gardens owned by Robert Dudley (at Kenilworth Castle) and William Cecil (Theobalds, Hertfordshire). Cecil, as foreign minister, wanted Elizabeth to marry the brother of the King of France, as a political alliance. Dudley wanted Elizabeth to marry himself. The book claims that the rivalry between these two men, and their desire to impress Elizabeth, provided the motivation for both men to push the boundaries of garden design. Elizabeth was their muse.
What follows, are some of my own snaps of the garden and it's artifacts, along with my own impressions of the garden.
Two general views (which I posted previously):
The plants in flower at the moment are amaranthus and marygolds:
The garden is believed to have been a 'Gilly Garden'. That is, consisting of sweet smelling perenials. Typically, carnations, pinks, stocks, and wallflowers.
Arbours.
These structures are actually arbours:
In due time roses and honeysuckle will grow up to cover them. This arbour has two views, one over the garden, and another view out over the countryside (to right of camera):
The Fountain.
In the centre of the garden is a fountain, holding up Elizabeth's world:
Scenes from mythology are carved around the base:
This one is Andromeda and Perseus:
The idea of these scenes is that, according to Ovid, during the first era of human history, people lived in harmony with nature. This was the land of Arcadia. The book claims that Elizabeth loved 'wanton Ovid' (p102). Elizabeth was credited with a move towards this Arcadian viewpoint. In his 'The Shepherds Calendar', Spencer celebrated Elizabeth as Goddess of love and Queen of Shepherds.
Some of the mythic scenes depicted at rhe base of the fountain are the same as those described in Shakespeare's 'A Midsummer Night's Dream'. It has been claimed that the word patterns used in the Langham Letter, on which the garden reconstruction is based, are identical to those used by Shakespeare, and that Shakespeare and Langham were the same person ( ).
Holly, Bay, Obelisks.
Holly trees seemed to me to be prominent:
One can imagine how different the garden will appear in 20 years time, when the trees have grown. The chapter in the book, about Elizabeth's visit to Kenilworth, is titled 'Deep Desire'. The castle guidebook explains that 'deep desire' was symbolised, in a pageant enacted for Elizabeth, by a man dressed as a holly tree. So that's what the holly trees are all about, I guess. I think it's a male symbol. The shape of the holly trees is a bit like the obelisk.
Instead of holly, alternate the knots have bay trees:
These are spherical, and so, probably, the female symbol. The bay also occurs in mythology. Nymph Daphne was being pursued by Apollo, and Diana turned her into a bay tree.
The garden is composed of 4 knots. With each knot is an obelisk surmounted by a sphere. This was part of a Renaissance fascination with Egypt. The book says that the obelisks, which were originally entwined with vines, symbolised Dudley and Elizabeth. Motto: 'You standing, I will flourish':
Bear and Ragged Staff - Arthur.
Dudley wanted to give Elizabeth the impression that he was an heir to King Arthur. Elizabeth's visit to Kenilworth included an enactment of the Lady of the Lake on the lake outside the castle (now drained). During the pageant there were allusions, to the castle having being owned by King Arthur.
The Dudley device is a bear and ragged staff. Nice garden ornament:
There are several explanations for these symbols. The name Arthur comes from a word meaning a bear. Artio was a Celtic bear Goddess, related to both Artemis, and Arcturis (brightest star in the Great Bear). The bear is also connected with Knights Templar beliefs. Here's some boring stuff about the names Arthur, bear, and Boewulf:
Arcadia also means 'people of the bear'.
Cherry Trees.
An avenue of cherry trees:
The avenue continues on the other side if the aviary. This variety is 'Black Maiden'. These trees will also change the appearance of the garden as they grow.
The book explains that the core of William Cecil's garden at Theobalds was a cherry tree orchard (p174). It's another symbolic plant. His orchard had 15 varieties of cherry tree.
Oaks.
Robert Dudley's own plant symbol was the oak. There is a word-play here: robert - robur (p56). There are no oaks in the garden itself, but plenty in the castle grounds, and the environs. Oaks in the grounds:
It's possible to determine the age of an oak by measuring its girth. I didn't take a tape measure. This one is big:
Trea Martyn ends with some ideas about a potential modern day revival of interest in gardens based on philosophy (p289). She says it is a misconception to imagine that Elizabethan gardens were rigid and formal (p289). She says that the grounds always included informal areas. Part of the appeal was the juxtapositon of cultivated and the wild. She cites Rosemary Verey's 'Elizabethan Garden' as capturing the Elizabethan spirit. Not exactly sure if this is the one:
Finally, a few snaps of Elizabeth and Dudley in the garden, taken during some 'living history' events:
And also there's an artice about the Kenilworth garden in an archaeology magazine:
My gawd, I have gone on a bit. -
Message 2
Posted by Aspidistra (U11680993) on Wednesday, 30th September 2009
Yes, you have.
. I think the best introduction to the Kenilworth garden was the series about English Heritage last summer which had one programme, which was discussed on these boards, just about the making of the garden. -
Message 3
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Thursday, 1st October 2009
hello gary, you have tried to present your own overview whilst already good ones exist.
Your pictures illustrate your own special interests - the symbolisms the artefacts and a few other things, but they are not presented in a consistent way - more of a colection of 'things'.
Maybe if you could concentrate on just one aspect and use it to illustrate your own thoughts on gardening this would be a more valuable contribution.
You could also first 'collect your thoughts' and put them down in a few well chosen sentences(in your own separate document which you then paste into the message board) accompanied by groupings a pictures in a slide view - where there is also room for an accompanying tekst to explain a small detail.
It's all a bit more work, but if it results in an easy read then well worth the effort don't you think?
you mention one thing 'off hand' - the rivalry of the two gents for the attentioan of Elizabeth resulting in the boundaries of gardening being expanded - now if this is more than mere conjecture but can be backed up by evidence, this would be an interesting thing to read more about! -
Message 4
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Thursday, 1st October 2009
Treechange,
Thank you for your suggestions.
When you say that I have a mass of 'things', are you suggesting that there is an underlying central idea or theme, that I've failed to grasp.
I really don't know anything about the history of garden design to say precisely what innovations Dudley and Cecil introduced. The phrase you use was 'expanding the boundaries'.
I had the impression that they had introduced Italian Rennaisance ideas, like the terrace, arbours, fountains, and references to mythology. I don't know how the English knot garden began. It's a curious thing. I found a reference, via Google, to Tudor beliefs about 'the curious knot', but not with any enlightening explanation.
Some of the artifacts, and plants, in the garden refer to Elizabeth, and some to Dudley. And some to them as a couple, like the sphere and obelisk. The idea that the garden represents something about individual people may well have been novel.
The mythological reliefs are presumably important. I know hardly anything about Ovid. I understand Ovid is a series of metamorphoses, I suppose that means a sort of personal journey, for Elizabeth or Dudley.
There is also the concept of Elizabeth Gloriana; an identification of her well-being with the welfare of the nation, her identification with Venus, and the Golden Age, which she acheived.
Is it worth me trying to figure this out, or am I on completely the wrong track, again. -
Message 5
Posted by michelle78 (U7007319) on Thursday, 1st October 2009
If anyone is planning on visiting Kenilworth, I would not do it this Sunday morning-lunchtime. Kenilworth has a half marathon on then, and roads will be closed to accomodate the runners. Its due to start at 10 and should be all open again by 12:30 or so.
Mich
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Message 6
Posted by Aspidistra (U11680993) on Thursday, 1st October 2009
If I may be so bold, I think what Treechange is partly saying is that you are writing out long, complicated bits of information and that this format doesn't really sit very easily on this message board. If you look at how others write, each message is usually fairly short and only contains one or two points.
I guess it is rather like having a conversation -best not to launch into too long a monologue, but maybe just make one or two points and see how the other people on the board respond to them before adding more points? I'm sure we all value your contributions but it would help communication if you took this on board.Treechange, I hope I'm not misrepresenting you. -
Message 7
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Thursday, 1st October 2009
that's well said Aspidistra, no misrepresentation - it gets hard to hold onto the story about half way because one has to keep going to and fro between text and picture
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Message 8
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Friday, 2nd October 2009
message #4 Gary: It's interesting to read all the things you notice in these gardens. I'm not suggesting at all that there may be a central theme to the garden itself that I can see, although it would be nice to think there was.
It's more that if you see all these ideas emerging in a garden you could make your own decision about the relevance of these things in the overall garden design, in what way they add to or detract from what you see and group your photos together accordingly to demonstrate this in a more concise way so that the 'idea' comes through more clearly.
Your second message as a summary of your first posting has been helpful in this way.
'Garden inspiration' is to me something which involves an active response, i.e. a germ of an idea that results in action, like reinterpreting an idea into one's own garden setting.
The 'truth' of what you see is therefore actually a personal matter and very often just the 'truth' at that moment in time and
therefore always open to reinterpretation by each individual. -
Message 9
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Friday, 2nd October 2009
I can see what you're both saying. Thank you.
The place, and the book, led to so many trains of thought, that I wanted to spew them all out.
The things which fasinated me most were - the fountain reliefs, the bear, and the concept of the knot garden. There's also a concept called the 'Garden State', where the garden is a metaphor for the state, and for the person. Maybe I should find out a little more about Ovid first, and perhaps we should leave 'Garden State' aside for a moment.
So what's a 'knot garden' about?
Incidentally, here's a shot of the 'knot garden' before the make-over:
In the pre-makeover garden, English Heritage had box hedging around the plots.
The madeover garden uses rows of strawberries and thrift as the edging, and the beds are raised beds:
I must say, this seems at opposite poles to my own style of wilderness, bananas, and jungle, and I find it quite mind-boggling that anyone should have wanted to do this. (Though I do have an open mind, and anything's possible, I suppose).
Why make the planting so rigid and formal? And what's it got to do with a box and knots? And why the fancy geometry?
I thought I was struggling to get out of a box, not to get inside one. The common edging plant used is actually called 'box'. Help! -
Message 10
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Friday, 2nd October 2009
Treechange, I think our messages crossed. But what I've said, just above, is still probably what I'd have replied to your post, if I'd seen it.
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Message 11
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Saturday, 3rd October 2009
"So what's a 'knot garden' about?"
I thought a knot garden was where the box was clipped into intricate patterns in a kind of 3D way so that when you looked out from above it looked like a piece of green rope knotted in a pattern.
There are websites which show photo's of this
What is actually shown here at Kenilworth is something called a
'parterre' garden, which just means divided up into segments or 'boxes'. I think the mix comes when people decided to plant up the spaces in the 'knot garden' which created a mix between the two styles.
As for why -well pragmatically I guess with those long dresses
it was easier to have plants well contained so you didn't trip over trailing things..........
For the rest, well "The Garden State" would be an important things in those times. There was plenty of 'wild' still around then and with the world suddenly becoming much larger through exploration then also actually the artefacts were probably just not much more than collections - of a rediscovery of old civilisations, things from new civilizations and attempts to define ones own space (The Garden State).
Defining our own space : that's what a lot of people still do with gardens (thank goodness, instead of copying a fad).
That space these days is our 'box'. Even a wild garden is in a box these days. So we may be living now in the 'boxed garden' instead of outside looking in -
Message 12
Posted by Aspidistra (U11680993) on Saturday, 3rd October 2009
I think you have to look at a garden with parterres and stuff in its context - I think it's surprising how in those days they had such a small number of plants - the age of the great plant hunters had yet to come.
This may partly have created an interest in using a small number of known plants in patterned forms as they didn't have the depth of types of plants to choose from to add colour and texture, so they in a sense created their own tapestries with what they had.
I think what kind of gardens were around is also to do with affluence - a garden with parterres or knot gardens would require high maintenance which the very wealthy could afford. Possibly garden styles are affected by whether or not cheap labour is available at any given moment in time. -
Message 13
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Sunday, 4th October 2009
Aspi,
Those gardens certainly seem to be high maintenance. Just the act of creating one - getting all the box plants, etc, would be quite a task too, I'd imagine. -
Message 14
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Sunday, 4th October 2009
Treechange,
Yes, even a wild garden, if it's put together according to some rules, isn't wild.
Your remark about being 'in the box' rather than 'outside the box' is intriguing.
You say that the 'knots' were intended to be viewed from 'above', ie 'outside the box'. The garden at Kenilworth was certainly intended to be viewed from above, from the raised terrace. You weren't actually meant to look at it 'from inside'. You were meant to see it all from above.
The symmetrical geometric patterns, with the pretty colours within them, viewed from above, are really, just like a kaleidoscope, aren't they. Coincidentally, someone else, on another thread, made a remark about a kaleidoscope, just a couple of days ago. The kaleidoscope wasn't invented till the 19c but the basic idea, of the mandala, is ancient and universal.
One might ponder whether a function of the Elizabthan knot garden might be provide revelatory insights, of various forms. Here's a passage from 'Elizabeth and the Garden' (p157) about just that:
"1577 marked a watershed in Elizabethan gardens, with the publication of 'The Gardener's Labyrinth' by Thomas Hill. The book appeared under the mysterious pseudomyn 'Didymus Mountain'... the pseudonym possibly meant 'Twin Peaks', in Greek myth, the home of the muses had two summits... Gardening had become as much a philosophical as a practical activity".
The arrangement of the Elizabethan knot garden is, IMO, suggesting something about our perception of the world. They were saying, I think, that our preception is, like a kaleidoscope, or a mandala, a non-repeating ever-unfolding sequence of moments. Life is a bit like watching a play - actors enter stage left, do some stuff, and then disappear stage right. There's a quotation, that 'life is like arriving late for a movie, and having to figure out what's going on'.
I seem to have missed most of the plot.
I wonder whether the impossible 3D knots in the original knot gardens may have a philosophical/revelatory meaning too. -
Message 15
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Monday, 5th October 2009
Defining our own space : that's what a lot of people still do with gardens, thank goodness, instead of copying a fadÌý
I understand that we can, all of us, if so inclined, 'do our own thing' in our own gardens, without much reference to current trends or fads or anyone else.
"The Garden State" would be an important thing in those times. There was plenty of 'wild' still around then.Ìý
Maybe that's still true. We can build our own little island, or even a castle, and try to escape from the world outside, and it's cares and troubles and it's demands; or even from the world deep inside ourselves.
But is building a little green oasis really the answer to our lives? I have, I suppose, a big green oasis-cum-jungle-cum-forest. But it still doesn't make me content.
There is still the feeling that 'there is something wrong with the world'. [It's a quote from a Natalie Portman film.] -
Message 16
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Monday, 5th October 2009
The history of gardens and gardening is a very interesting thing - I wish I had more time to dig (excuse the pun) into it.
Just a cursory glance through many garden styles from Egypt on shows that both the concepts of 'garden as secluded place' and 'garden for show' were of primary importance - different cultures emphasized the one or the other.
Also the concept of looking at from 'outside inwards' or from 'inside' are two clear ideas - the Japanese Zen garden is also
something to be contemplated from outside of it.
So again there is no one truth - it is just interesting as a reflection of the culture of the time. The world today is a fractured place, so in a way that all these styles, influences
and possible meanings can exist together is also indicative, but
alas is just that - a 'reflection' not a way forward.
I think plants in mediaeval times were used more symbolically than later in the Renaissance. The knot designs we see in the gardens had long been a feature of stone masonry in churches
and also in woven patterns of materials and tapestries.
But clearly the 'labyrinth' became a fashionable notion then.
But of course in Elizabethan times it's also the literature of
the period which imbues a symbolism to the garden (John Donne, Shakespeare et al) that may in reality have been much less in the mind of the garden designer than we think - certainly to the user as well - the labyrinth as a place to get conveniently lost in rather than a symbol for life's journey
I think that is all I have to say on this at the moment. -
Message 17
Posted by buttonupboots (U14070338) on Monday, 5th October 2009
Messsage 14. Hi Gary ! After a deliberate absence, I just had to re-enter this Board and offer you my thanks for aubmitting the inter- esting contribution 'Elizabeth at Kenilworth. I enjoyed reading your views and your pics. as usual, were superb viewing. In support of the foregoing (everyone is entitled to an opinion) may I opine that unless you seek International literary acclaim such as being awarded the Pulitzer, or Nobel Prize in Literature or even journalistic perfection please keep doing it 'your way' and let your inner love and concern for beauty in nature shine through.
Isn't what this Board is about - or is it ? I have nothing more to say/write -
Message 18
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
It's nice to hear from you again, Buttons. We were wondering what had happened to you.
You're someone who might appreciate some of the municipal planting in Kenilworth town centre.
I'm not wholly convinced that bananas are the best companion plants for petunias, but the Kenilworth-in-Bloom committee seems to have thought so....
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Message 19
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
Treechange,
to the user - the labyrinth was place to get conveniently lost inÌý
Yes, and I think the arbours at Kenilworth were intended for the very same purpose. Covered with honeysuckle and climbing roses, it must have been a very pleasant experience, for all concerned, all things considered.
The castle was built as a fortress to symbolise power and hatred; and then, under the influence of Elizabeth, the whole place became transformed, in effect, into a garden of love. That transformation of attitude accompanied the Golden Age.
The flowers grown at Kenilworth were believed to be perfumed. It was a 'Perfumed Garden'. I believe one of the Assyrian Reliefs at the British Museum depicts a garden, with a girl bending over to smell the flowers. Perhaps some of us may be able to experience such pleasures next Summer.
There must be some scope, today, for a garden designed to faciliate romance, and to enhance love-making.
I wonder whether you might have any thoughts on that.
Parterres were a feature of the garden at Versailles, which was dedicated to Apollo, so I fancy an apple tree in my garden of love too.
The apple tree was, of course, the inspiration for Sir Isaac Newton. The conclusion Newton came to was: 'The closer two bodies come together, the stronger the mutual attraction becomes'. I could never work out whether he was talking about the Sun and the Moon; or Mars and Venus; or a pair of fallen apples. -
Message 20
Posted by blackeyedsusan (U2456655) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
Well Gary, I found your initial entry QI, and it has provoked some further interesting observations, so thank you!
A book I enjoyed is the one by Gregory about the elder Tradescant, who was Cecil's gardener at Theobalds initially. (She also wrote about the younger Tradescant, equally interesting.) -
Message 21
Posted by Rainjustlearning (U12861332) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
So glad to have you back buttons
, have missed you, I havnt joined in this thread as it's going straight over my head
, to many big words and to complicated for my little old brain.
Rain -
Message 22
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
Thank you for your interest.
I've already got a huge reading list.
There's quite a lot in 'Elizabeth and the Garden' about Theobalds, which I didn't talk about. Theobalds seems to have been even more impressive than Kenilworth. Cecil had the best gardeners too.
There's a lot in the book the about Cecil's gardener John Gerard, the herbalist. And 'The Gardener's Labyrinth' by Didymus Mountain, was dedicated to Cecil.
Theobalds may have been even more symbolic than Kenilworth. A big difference between the two gardens was that Theobalds was all about Elizabeth, whereas Kenilworth was about Elizabeth and Dudley as a couple. -
Message 23
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
Rain,
Not exclusive by any means.
I'm sure you must appreciate honeysuckle and roses as much as anyone else, which seems to be the way it's going.
I thought you had a little oak tree and bay tree. -
Message 24
Posted by Rainjustlearning (U12861332) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
Gary, I have 4 oak trees, 1 I grew from an acorn and 3 I rescued from scrub land, the bay tree I had given, and I now have it seems a sweet chestnut that I again rescued on Saturday out with the dog, I love trees, also have a Siberian spruce and a mini salix willow, and yes I adore roses, in fact just about anything really, I also have some little box in the front garden, not quite sure what to do with them they are just growing at the moment, they're only about 6 inches high and very messy, so need ideas on that score.
Rain -
Message 25
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
I've just got hold of a book that claims to be the definitive book about Knot gardens, 'Knot Gardens and Parterres' by Robin Whalley.
Near the beginning is a full page colour print of a painting by Veronese. It's from mythology. It shows Mars and Venus, with Cupid tying a knot around their legs.
It's this one:
Details and discussion:
I suppose that idea is part of the reason why the knot garden had such an appeal to Dudley. -
Message 26
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
Rain,
Ideally you need a bit of space to grow oak trees. But they only grow very slowly so are not likely to be a problem in the immediate future, in a 10-year period.
They also seem to send roots straight down, and so are less of a problem than many other trees. From the little trees you have, you can probably see that the length of the tap root may be twice the height of the little tree.
When transplanting smallish oak trees, I find a good way is to drive a pole down into the ground, to make a very deep narrow hole, and feed the tap root in.
I don't know what to do about boxes myself. I've got a couple, both straggly and unkempt.
Maybe a bit of topiary is the simplest thing for you, to go with your bay tree. -
Message 27
Posted by Rainjustlearning (U12861332) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
The oak trees are only in the garden for a a couple of years, they are only about 8 inches tall, when they are bigger I am going to give them to our local council who will plant them in a safe place so the can grow to be nice BIG oaks, and I doubt I will be around to see that happen.
Rain -
Message 28
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
a little too much Mars and Venus and not enough knot voor my liking Gary!
Sorry, couldn't resist the joke.
Read with interest over Theobolds.
Am mulling over the rest............ -
Message 29
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
It seems that the knot may actually be a complicated idea. The knot seems to be very closely related to the idea of a labyrinth. So some puzzle may need to be resolved, or some deed performed, connected with the knot.
Would you like me to explore knottiness in some more detail
. I will if you wish.
There's a lot in the book about Theobalds (though nothing interesting about knots). Here are just a few points that stood out:
The garden was planted so that the flowering peaked in May, which was the time when Elizabeth traditionally visited.
Flowers included both natives and exotics. Elizabeth preferred the natives. Her own flower symbols were - violets, roses, lilies and honeysuckle.
The walkways were lined with pots of carnations, pinks, and gilly flowers, of all colours, and all strongly scented.
The garden also had many rare exotics. The Marvel of Peru is mentioned. 'Exotics' from the New World included - potatoes, tomatoes, and tobacco.
There was a collection of bee hives. There was a magnificent avenue of sycamore trees, with a summer house in the branches.
Bowers were made of jasmine and willow poles. There was a large orchard with a wide variety of trees. The core of the orchard was a garden of cherry trees.
There was a fountain at the centre of the garden, like Kenilworth. But whereas the Kenilworth fountain was topped by two figures representing Dudley and his brother, Cecil's had a figure of Christ, which was identifed with Elizabeth. In 'compartments' beside the fountain were carvings of a wild man and woman, possibly analogous to the Ovid reliefs at Kenilworth, I imagine.
There was a separate maze with a statue of Venus at the centre, called the Labyrinth of Love. The book recounts a story of finding one's way through the maze by following a thread that had caught on the foot of a knight.
Virtually nothing of this garden exists today. Though there are plans to make some of the area into a country park, Cedars Park, and possibly restore some of the maze. A lottery grant was awarded this May:
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Message 30
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
Would you like me to explore knottiness in some more detail
. I will if you wish.
No not necessary, I really was only making a joke. -
Message 31
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
On trees:
thank goodness the council will take them for you Rain, I was wondering if you were going to end up with a garden like mine........a mini forest of trees in containers.
Not by choice, but a result of not wanting to discourage 2 young nieces 12 years ago from planting tree seeds and 'rescuing' seedlings.
Did all seeds germinate: yes
Did all seedlings survive? yes
who ended up looking after them? Me of course
I ended up with: 3 oaks, 2 horse chestnuts, 2 Scots pine, 1 copper beech, 2 red maples, 1 birch, 1 rowan, 1 yew, 1 hornbeam and 1 weeping willow taken from a small branch of a tree that had blown down.
Now we come to it - I have a small city garden 4.5 metres by 12 metres!!!! I have an allotment but no trees over 3 metres are allowed there and have to travel to it so watering difficult ............likewise guerilla gardening is not an option
here as there is too much control of open spaces. So they are all at home
So I have a quite bizarre garden - not the next big thing in gardening I'm quite sure.
So be warned, curb your desire to save orphan trees.
Very slowly - 12 years on I am finding homes for some of them
(1 oak, the birch, the beech, 1 pine, the rowan, 1 maple) and soon the willow will depart. But of course the other trees do keep on growing tho' very slowly in their pots.........
And I hjave two little trees I bought: a laurel and an acer palmatum purpureum. Oh yes and a last seedling: a cabbage tree palm from Australia (very tricky, just the one from about 30 seeds) It's very slow growing - just 1 metre now.
So Gary if you're reading: no design,no metaphors and no symbolism in my forest garden, it mostly all came by chance!
One big plus has been the enormous explosion in bird numbers in the garden. Nothing rare but lots of joyful twittering:
[IMG]/IMG]
and some passers-by that I was chuffed to see :
[IMG]/IMG]
[IMG]/IMG] -
Message 32
Posted by Rainjustlearning (U12861332) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
the last 2 birds, are they a Great Spotted Woodpecker and a Sparrowhawk, there is a Kestrel that hovers around the field near me, and I oft hear a woodpecker but don't know what it is, I forgot about my 2 little Acer Palmatums and the 2 conifers that I intend to clip into a cylinder shape as they're to big to do a ball, apart from that everyone has balls I want something different, I might change my mind and keep the little oaks and put them in pots but it would be nice for them to grow into proper trees as nature intended them to be, I did have a bonsai tree my late mother in law bought me many years ago, but the strange thing was when she died 3 years ago so did the tree, creepy eh ! !
Rain -
Message 33
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Tuesday, 6th October 2009
that's right Rain, on the birds - the Sparrowhawk didn't get a meal that time..........
I would love all my trees to get good homes and am being careful that they are going to places where they are wanted and will be looked after and most likely reach adulthood.
I would never deliberately root prune a tree to bonzai them, but have seen enough trees of all types in their native environment growing in the most improbable places, 'naturally' bonzaid by too little soil depth to be really worried too much about growing them in containers. -
Message 34
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Wednesday, 7th October 2009
So Gary if you're reading: no design, no metaphors and no symbolism in my forest garden, it mostly all came by chance!
Ìý
Yes, I'm reading, with interest.
Growing trees in pots is quite a sensible option, I suppose. If some of those trees had been in the ground for that long, moving them would have been very difficult.
I think that can also apply to some other plants, which can be hard to move, once planted in the ground.
So you cared for them, all that while, only to let them go. -
Message 35
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Wednesday, 7th October 2009
That was poor expression on my part - over the past 12 years I have gradually been finding homes for them is what I meant to say.
The trees in brackets are those that have previously exited and the willow is to go this November.
They are all within a radius of 20 km with people I know. I visit them (both people and trees) on occasion.
You could say I've been letting them go.
You could also say I've been extending my rather confined garden to a radius only a few could aspire to! -
Message 36
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Wednesday, 7th October 2009
Saying that 'you let the trees go' is suggestive of each tree having a 'spirit' of its own. As I expect you know, this is an ancient idea. It was particularly true of the oak, but could also be said to hold true for any other tree.
I believe that the 'natural' landscape of much of this country, and Scotland, is oak wood.
In the part of the world where I live (Warwickshire), any untended area of arable land will, under suitable conditions, revert to oak wood, within a couple of decades.
Here is a baby oak in some pasture:
Around many fields, there will be large oaks, which drop a multitude of acorns, right now. Many acorns will be eaten, or dispersed in some way. But many will germinate. Beneath any large oak, in Spring, will be a patchwork of baby oaks.
Many of the babies will be eaten by browsing animals. But, providing the grazing is not intensive (which it usually is), some will survive. If a tree can get to 3 or 4 years old, then every year it's chances of long term survival increase.
Here is a group of 3 oaks, about 4' tall. Their chances of long term survival are good. Although they are a bit close together:
Below is an area that has been deliberately left uncultivated for at least 30 years. It was originally part of an orchard. It now contains several large oaks, which have all grown up there quite naturally:
There is also an underlayer mainly of holly, and bluebells in Spring, which is also entirely natural.
This is one of a pair of oaks, outside the current main entrance to Kenilworth Castle:
It's tempting to imagine this tree might have been there in Elizabeth's time. However, I've actually measured the girth of this tree. It's 16½ feet, so it's a mere youngster, 'only' about 275 years old. -
Message 37
Posted by Rainjustlearning (U12861332) on Wednesday, 7th October 2009
That last photo is wonderful, I think each tree has a spirit, and I think that trees talk to you, I know I hug them if I get a chance, I feel as one with them, am I silly or what, the world will revert back to trees and grass when we have killed each other off that's why in my next life I'm coming back as a giant Redwood.
Rain -
Message 38
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Wednesday, 7th October 2009
Yes the power of trees and other vegetation to come back on land if it is left for even a little while is truly amazing.
My world is a strange diaspora though Gary.
I live in Holland of which a large amount is truly 'man made'
and the rest so totally and for so long 'managed' by man that there is little sense to be found of a continuity existing before man's intervention. You have to look hard and imagine a lot.
I think the oldest tree here is under 300 years, apart from old coppiced oak-tree forests where they have traced the original root systems back to more than a thousand years.
That's why I have to find particular homes for my trees - there is very little here that is not managed. I hope they do have a bit of their own spirit - given that they have survived in my pots I guess they do
It is interesting in its own way, because they do have National Parks etc here - it's just that a decision is made as to what era of 'landscape' is to be preserved - nothing is 'natural', if that were the case then 2/3 of Holland would be under water!
And all the heathland here which the Dutch go to great lengths to preserve really originally was mixed forest and would become that again very soon if it were left alone.
I come from Australia where I have walked in many a wilderness which has been inhabited by humans for a long time but only in the last 230 years been subject to ecological vandalism. There you can see a real 'before and after' and experience a notion of age outside of civilization.
The oldest house in Australia still standing dates from just 1793!
And my allotment here is on a piece of land that has been part of an estate since 1275, with the same family owning it since 1675. So in terms of history a long time, but very few old trees on it. I think wood is just too scarce in Holland. There is a very old mulberry tree here though.
So my concept of age and history is very warped...... -
Message 39
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Wednesday, 7th October 2009
P.S. all of above is of course very off-topic.
But perhaps an interesting new topic - the notion of what is 'natural' in a landscape and how that affects gardeners and gardening.
I mean aside from or perhaps even despite Capability Brown! -
Message 40
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Wednesday, 7th October 2009
Rain,
Nothing wrong with hugging a tree.
They must get pretty lonely, just standing there, through an eternity. -
Message 41
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Wednesday, 7th October 2009
Tree,
I come from AustraliaÌý Well, it's very nice to make the acquaintance of someone from down under.
perhaps an interesting new topic - the notion of what is 'natural' in a landscape and how that affects gardeners and gardeningÌý OK. I'll have a little think first.
One further word about Elizabethan knot gardens...
'Elizabeth in the Garden' praises Roemary Verey's Elizabethan Garden. In the course of finding out a little more, I put 'Rosemary Verey knot garden' into Google. The second item on the search results was this page:
It's a book, written by her. In the right hand column, on that page, she describes her favouite garden statuary:
'I am very attached to the hunting lady and dwarf gardeners.'
What does she mean by 'the hunting lady'? Does she mean Diana/Artemis? And what does she mean by 'dwarf gardeners' - 'Gnomes'?
The original post on the 'Next Big Idea' thread says:
Please don't say gnomes
Ìý
OK, I'll say it: statues of Diana, and Gnomes. -
Message 42
Posted by Rainjustlearning (U12861332) on Wednesday, 7th October 2009
will have to call you tc, cant call you tree or change, anyway, when I was out with the dog tonight guess what I spotted, yes another 3 little oaks, tried to tease them out of the ground but they wouldn't budge, I think what hap pend is, at the start of the year the council in their madness decided to shred half of the little wood and these little ones are part of the roots, is there any way I can get to them to save them, I guess if they are part of a root system then all hope is lost, I may go out tomorrow night with my trusty trowel and see if I can encourage them out to come and live with me.
Rain -
Message 43
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Wednesday, 7th October 2009
'I am very attached to the hunting lady and dwarf gardeners.'
Well I guess she just couldn't bear to say that Simon Verity, a well-known sculptor had sculpted a Gnome!
And then 'Diana and dwarf gardeners' sounds just as naf.
No I think she thought very carefully about her choice of words
Thanks for the link to the book - will read it further!
P.S. how do you do the 'quoted from this message' layout - can't find that anywhere. -
Message 44
Posted by garyhobson (U11055016) on Thursday, 8th October 2009
Rain,
The little oaks would definitely be independent little trees. Oaks never sucker.
But little oak trees have quite long tough tap roots, possibly going down to double the height of the little tree, or maybe more. Oaks are a bit like carrots, in more ways than one.
So you need damp weather, to make the soil penetratable, and to trowel down deeply around the sides, to pull out a long thin cone of soil.
The amount of an oak that's underground is often not appreciated. When we look at an oak tree, we're not conscious of the underground part; but the health of that part is essential to the vitality of the tree.
A mature oak may have as much as 100 miles of underground root system. More about oak roots here:
-
Message 45
Posted by Rainjustlearning (U12861332) on Thursday, 8th October 2009
TC how to quote, right 1st you need < then type word quote then > highlight what you want copy and paste thing, then < then/ then type word quote then > if you do a preview it should look like
P.S. how do you do the 'quoted from this message' layout - can't find that anywhere.Ìý
took me a while but then it's dead easy, happy quoting !
Rain
Gary
I will go out with a trowel tonight and give them a go, the poor little things have got powdery mildew, I didn't realise that the roots went that deep, they must be one of the deepest rooting trees surely, no wonder they live for such a long time and rarely blow over.
Rain -
Message 46
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Thursday, 8th October 2009
O.K., I’ll allow myself to lead myself down the garden path with sculptures and artefacts - just this once mind you…..
I guess making a ‘feature’ of the water supply was always going to be the first
decorative action in a garden and of course fountains in gardens in hot climates
(Persia, Turkey, Greece) had a very cooling effect and together with trees make a garden a pleasant place to be in when it’s heading towards 40º C.
So the fountain was there very early on, monastery gardens putting one in the centre of a quadrangle and that’s where we see it for many centuries.
Then all those Greek and Roman gods/spirits/ half god-half human entities which occupied woods had to be depicted in their rightful abode, that’s what people do in general with religions and why smashing up statues and pictures is the quickest way to assert a new order on a culture.
When gardening becomes a religion…….
So it’s fairly clear given the influence of Italian Renaissance style gardens on the rest of the world in the centuries thereafter that mythology would be a favourite subject for garden ornaments.
Which actually makes Kennilworth gardens quite interesting actually aside from the panels from Ovid on the Fountain, because Dudley was putting his own symbols into it – as you have shown in your photo’s Gary, which are of course exemplary.
Especially the bear and staff. I gather that originally these two were not always shown together but also separately – like the staff on the top of the world on the fountain.
Strange that an earl would use a chained up bear and not one ‘rampant’ as an emblem – but thinking of those knots again, I guess it fits in rather neatly with what Dudley might have been trying to say to Elizabeth
I prefer the original Greek myths to the Roman copies and very much Greek sculpture to the Roman copies (proportions, how muscles were depicted etc).
The Greek gods were really rather human –
corrupt, deceitful, always getting up to something no good and then trying to do a rapid ‘fix-up’ like turning something into stone, or a tree or a star, very far away -things that can’t move very fast, gives you a fighting chance.
I appreciate art and sculpture, go to exhibitions, museums and the like, but actually don’t miss it in a garden if it’s not there.
A well-placed tree, flower or more natural type of small pond is just as satisfying to me. But this is a very personal
thing. I just don’t collect things much, never have (apart from the trees of course, but that was only partially my own doing). But that goes together with being able to ‘uproot’ myself and live in other countries. If one collects, then that becomes difficult - I am capable of giving away or 'letting go' so I guess I could collect a bit more really....
Not even photo’s – rarely take them, though I can do a reasonable job if I want to. But that’s partly due to having a photo enthousiast for a father – all those long evenings of slide shows………. but I still do appreciate looking at them very much!
I guess it’s because I have a good memory (still) and am used to storing and recalling a lot of info in my head. -
Message 47
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Thursday, 8th October 2009
Hi Rain,
Your explanation doesn't quite work for me - I did what you said but even when closing it off with the 'quote' expression, the rest of the message which I types after it also appeared in the same box as if it were the quote!
Very strange, but don't worry I'll experiment and should get there by myself......
TC is O.K., but 'Tree' too - why not? You call yourself Rain - that's hogging a very big object isn't it
'Treechange' is like 'Seachange' when people retire to a seaside resort, or in the case of treechange to a rural place.
Seachange actually was used by Shakespeare, 'treechange' is a more modern, popular Australian coinage - I'm not retired nor in a rural place, tho' my allotment is.
But one day, one day............ -
Message 48
Posted by Rainjustlearning (U12861332) on Thursday, 8th October 2009
make sure you put the / in after the < when closing the quote or it wont work, the type quote then put >, have a play tree.
Rain -
Message 49
Posted by treechange (U14126469) on Thursday, 8th October 2009
have a play treeÌý
Ah missed the / in your first explanation - thanks!
a 'play tree' now that's an idea! and a tree-house is a 'play house'
too! -
Message 50
Posted by Rainjustlearning (U12861332) on Thursday, 8th October 2009
well were all big daft kids on these threads aren't we, lunch time, catch up with you all later.
Rain x x
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