麻豆官网首页入口

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

听

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 麻豆官网首页入口 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

听

听

IN TOUCH 鈥� Social Distancing

听

TX:听 19.05.20听 2040-2100

听

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

听

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 LOUISE CLARK-ROWBOTHAM

听

听

听

White

Good evening.听 We always try to do what you ask on this programme and my brief mention last week of the possible effects of social distancing rules on how visually impaired people may live their lives in the future, has drawn a response which makes it very clear that you want this discussed and you want some answers.听 Take Dr Fiona Gameson, who鈥檚 totally blind, she doesn鈥檛 have a guide dog, so, from time to time, she needs an arm.听 Here鈥檚 part of her email:

听

Gameson

My friends are all very happy to meet me, when out and about, but I can鈥檛 take their arm or be guided or helped by them.听 This isn鈥檛 because they鈥檙e afraid of catching something from me or of passing something on, what worries them is the abuse and criticism they fear from others who see two people walking close together, not observing social distancing.听 Is there something we can do to stop social censure?听 I don鈥檛 suggest we blind people should wear the Covid equivalent of the Star of David, but is there some way it can be made public knowledge that there are some people who need to have close contact with others for daily life to continue normally.

听

White

Well, there is Fiona, of course, which is to discuss it rationally and based on facts rather than fear.听 Which is what we鈥檙e proposing to do this evening.听 I鈥檒l introduce our guests, as we come to them, but I鈥檓 going to start with Kirsten 鈥� Kirsten Hearn 鈥� because Kirsten鈥檚 a totally blind listener who raised this issue, even before lockdown and before the two-metre distance rule had been really discussed at all.听 Kirsten, described herself as being edgy 鈥� her words 鈥� at the effect that this could have on our methods of getting help and of the impact that are being viewed as innately vulnerable might have on our freedom.听 We brought her back.听 Kirsten, nine weeks on, are you still feeling edgy?

听

Hearn

I鈥檓 even more edgy now.

听

White

Tell me why.

听

Hearn

Okay, so it鈥檚 become a little bit clearer what life is going to be like in the medium term, at the moment, and I鈥檓 thinking in particular around the use of public transport.听 And obviously in order to socially distance you鈥檝e got to keep your distance from people, which is not easy to do if you鈥檙e blind.听 The first time I often know a person 鈥� say if they鈥檙e not speaking 鈥� is when I鈥檝e walked into them.听 So, I鈥檓 a bit anxious about that.听 How鈥檚 that going to work?听 I am very anxious about how assistance will work on public transport, particularly the tube and on the railway, where those environments are quite hard and in the past I have been greatly assisted by members of staff, in particular, whose job it is to support and assist passengers and they鈥檝e actually made it possible for me to travel independently and I鈥檓 really worrying about what that mean 鈥� will I have to trot behind somebody on the Underground, in a very noisy environment, two metres back, wondering where they鈥檝e gone, hoping I鈥檓 not going to pitch over the edge of the 鈥� of the platform or bump into a nervous passenger.听 I don鈥檛 know.听 So 鈥� and I鈥檓 thinking, well, I do sometimes have to travel specifically for work which cannot be done from my home and that has implications for me.

听

White

How much have you continued to travel independently during lockdown, I mean have you done it at all?

听

Hearn

No.听 I have been out for walks but I have been out for socially distanced walks, which is a bit challenging.听 So, somebody will walk two metres in front of me, generally to one side, they鈥檙e usually in the road and I鈥檓 on the pavement.

听

White

You haven鈥檛 taken someone鈥檚 arm in this situation?

听

Hearn

No.

听

White

Okay, we鈥檒l come back to you.听 And just before we bring in our next guest, here鈥檚 another email from Oriel Britton, with a slightly different perspective.

听

Britton

People who are, by no choice, at home all the time, with only the media coverage for company, might be forgiven for thinking it鈥檚 Armageddon.听 However, on the street, people are still being quite helpful.听 There is as big a range of help from us as ever.听 I think we can usually press the override button when it comes to helping another human being for just a few minutes.听 People should try life out and about before jumping to conclusions.

听

White

Which is why we鈥檝e invited two guests, who are in countries where lockdown has been, albeit cautiously, slightly relaxed, so, who are maybe to talk from experience about some of these things.听 Let鈥檚 just first go to Peter Brass, who鈥檚 a board member of the German Federation of the Blind and Partially Sighted.

听

So, Peter, what鈥檚 your experience been, especially since lockdown has been perhaps relaxed a little?

听

Brass

Well, it鈥檚 been difficult.听 It鈥檚 not impossible.听 But people are certainly trying to keep their distance and so, I鈥檝e had the experience, when travelling, on 鈥� especially on the trains 鈥� and when you ask for assistance that there were occasionally people who said 鈥� Yeah, I鈥檒l help you but you鈥檒l have to walk behind me in the distance of about two metres.听 But some people said 鈥� Oh, no problem, take my arm. 听And so, it works 鈥� it works both ways.

听

White

Have you come across any hostility?

听

Brass

Yes, a little bit but mostly when it鈥檚 a question of standing in line, because, as I say, for example, if you went to enter a shop, you don鈥檛 see the markings on the floor and you don鈥檛 see the people 鈥� how far they are away from you 鈥� so sometimes you get some aggressive undertones, people telling you 鈥� step back, move away.听 But not too often.

听

White

So, we aren鈥檛 jumping to conclusions in that case, to quote from Oriel鈥檚 email, this is happening?

听

Brass

Yes, it is happening occasionally.

听

White

One more question, before we move on.听 Are blind and partially sighted people being given any advice, specifically aimed at them, about how to deal with this?

听

Brass

I mean we do 鈥� the organisations of the blind and partially sighted here in Germany, we do try and pass on advice to our members, telling them to, if possible, certainly to try and keep their distance and also to wear face masks, because that鈥檚 what is expected of you, even though it is, especially for low vision people, face masks can really cause a problem.

听

White

Okay, we鈥檒l come on to face masks.听 We鈥檙e also joined by Lars Bosselmann, who is also German, but actually we鈥檙e talking to him because he鈥檚 now living in Paris where he鈥檚 just taken up the job of Director of the European Blind Union.

听

What have your experiences been Lars?

听

Bosselmann

Yes, so at a personal level of course I came to Paris in a very challenging time, so I basically moved house from听 Brussels, where I was based before coming to Paris, literally one week ahead of the lockdown, so you can 鈥� and I took up the new job basically on the day when, here in France, the lockdown measures were announced in the evening, so there you can probably guess what that means in terms of settling, finding my ways and discovering my own area, which has been all put on hold but that鈥檚 more at a personal level.听

听

So, France, relaxed very, very lightly, let鈥檚 say, its lockdown measures a week ago, so this is very early days, so no kind of longer term or even medium-term conclusions to be drawn from experience thus far, I guess.

听

White

Can I ask you one specific thing 鈥� I think you鈥檙e particularly concerned, aren鈥檛 you, about this whole business of what you can touch, say, in a supermarket, what the rules are about that?

听

Bosselmann

Well, that is indeed a point, apart from social distancing of course, which has been discussed and will continue to be discussed which here I have similar experiences than Peter just described from Germany, so very diverse.听 Generally, overwhelmingly very understanding people but also some comments indeed.听 About touching, yes, I think that鈥檚 a real challenge for blind people.听 I, myself, also fully blind.听 Touching, of course, is in many ways very important as it allows us, as a sense, to recognise shapes of our favourite products or whatever, other objects.听 So, if that now becomes socially also unliked or somehow unpopular or even is forbidden in some ways, that, of course, creates real issues.听 Now I have to say people do apply generally common sense, I think, on a positive note, that鈥檚 at least my experience so far.听 People do understand why I鈥檓 touching, though I鈥檓 normally not allowed or supposed to do that.

听

White

Well, a lot of questions already raised, so, where could we get some answers?听 Well, some of them from Professor Robert Dingwall.听 He鈥檚 a sociologist with a public health speciality.听 He鈥檚 a member of NERVTAG, which is the New and Emerging Respiratory Viral Threats Advisory Group, which reviews data on the spread of infection and associated risks, which is why we鈥檝e got him here.听 He鈥檚 based at Nottingham Trent University.

听

Robert, very specific question first, this business of touching, linking arms, which people like Fiona, who we heard at the beginning, Kirsten and me, we all do it, possibly so do Peter and Lars, so it鈥檚 a big element of coping when you鈥檙e out.听 How risky is it in terms of passing infection?

听

Dingwall

Well, it鈥檚 really not very risky at all.听 I mean listen to your emails, one of the things that comes through very much is how 鈥� how anxious and fearful a lot of people are about this infection and about the messages that they鈥檝e received from the government and about the kind of drumbeat of death in all the kind of media coverage.听 We鈥檝e slightly lost sight of the fact that 80-85% of the people who get this infection will never need to go near a hospital and of those who do have to go into hospital almost all of them will come out alive.听 Our perception is very skewed and that, I think, is reflected in the reactions of other people towards the linking of arms and so on.

听

White

Well, another emailer, Richard Foster, says 鈥� what needs to be adopted is the traditional and provenly safe guiding method, lightly holding someone鈥檚 arm and walking perhaps a little behind them, to the side.听 You think that鈥檚 right, and you think that鈥檚 safe, do you?

听

Dingwall

That鈥檚 鈥� it鈥檚 minimal risk.听 I mean the two-metre rule is really exaggerated.听 I mean 鈥� and the World Health Organisation recommends a distance of a metre.听 That still has a bit of a safety margin built in.听 So, somebody who is lightly holding an arm, walking to the side, especially in a side by side position and with the movement through the air, we鈥檙e really not talking about a situation in which transmission of the infection is very likely at all.

听

White

But given that none of us wants to spread infection or have it spread to us, you really feel you can say that with confidence, do you, given that people, clearly, as we鈥檝e heard, people are nervous and people are nervous of approaching us?

听

Dingwall

Well indeed and I don鈥檛 think one should downplay the impact of that anxiety.听 But everyday life is not free of risk and this is a very small one and largely a theoretical one.听 I mean most of the research that suggests that there is a lot of oral transmission 鈥� that鈥檚 transmission through the air, either of virus particles or of droplets 鈥� is done in very artificial environments.听 As soon as you get into the outdoors, the air currents are dispersing particles, droplets tend to fall on the clothing or the face of the person who鈥檚 emitting them.听 So, if you鈥檙e holding another person鈥檚 arm, if you鈥檙e standing at arm鈥檚 length to navigate through space, this is not actually spraying particles in your direction, in either direction, either from your companion to you or from you to your companion.

听

White

Can I ask you, just quickly, about face masks because a lot of people would say even if there is a risk would face masks help, both in terms of protection and in making people feel safer?

听

Dingwall

Face masks do nothing to protect you from infection, they may have a small value if you are infected in protecting those around you.听 But the likelihood of your being infected on any given day is very small indeed.听 If you have obvious symptoms 鈥� if you鈥檙e coughing a lot, if you鈥檝e got a fever 鈥� then you probably shouldn鈥檛 be out at all, although you may be infectious for a couple of days before the symptoms emerge and that鈥檚 been one of the problems with controlling the spread of this particular virus.听 Again, the most important means of transmission is almost certainly touch, it鈥檚 picking up dried particles of virus from surfaces and if you focus on washing your hands regularly and thoroughly, as you鈥檙e advised to, then I don鈥檛 think that you should be over concerned about the possible role of masks.

听

White

Right, let me bring in the people who have to live with this, maybe to talk to you.听 Kirsten, any comments or questions about that you鈥檇 like to put to Professor Dingwall?

听

Hearn

Yes, it鈥檚 about touch and it鈥檚 about 鈥� sometimes when people are guiding us, they have nice bare arms and we may have bare hands and the 鈥� kind of like the touch thing it is a bit of an issue.听 It鈥檚 also kind of like people touching me and I never walk around in summer with bare arms because people always grab my arms 鈥� I don鈥檛 know where their hands have been.听 So, it's already kind of like the possibility of transmission of infection from hands to arm, arm to hands, that kind of physical 鈥� that touch.

听

Dingwall

The virus is not transmitted through the skin.听 If you get it on to your hands and you touch your face you may get it into your mouth or nose and that鈥檚 a route of infection.听 But skin to skin contact is not a means by which it鈥檚 transmitted, the virus does not penetrate the skin.听 Now, clearly, as we鈥檝e heard, if blind and visually impaired people are touching things more 鈥� like handrails 鈥� or using touch to navigate through space then it may be more important for them to wash their own hands regularly.听 If they鈥檙e being touched on the arm you may want to have a slightly higher degree of cleanliness than other people might go for.

听

White

There鈥檚 just one social point I wanted to put to you, these is the issue of cuts to public transport because people are worried to use it.听 Maxine Johnson says that this could leave blind people, who depend on it so heavily, trapped in their own areas.听 Robert, what鈥檚 your comment on that?

听

Dingwall

Well, I think that鈥檚 a very reasonable fear and it鈥檚 why so many of us are increasingly critical of the two-metre rule.听 If you accept that one metre spacing is quite adequate and that side by side seating is not a high transmission risk then you can imagine a much greater density of people being able to use public transport.

听

White

I just want to go back to Kirsten, just quickly.听 Are you fearful that there may be restrictions on us, some of them deliberate, some of them accidental, or conditional on things like transport being lessened?

听

Hearn

Yes, in London, certainly, we鈥檙e taking less than a quarter of people on public transport 鈥� about 13-15% on the Underground 鈥� which is astonishing for the two-metre rule.听 And that means that there鈥檚 less people allowed on it.听 And I have a great sense of fear that we won鈥檛 be deemed appropriate to be on because some assumptions are being made about us, one, is that we should be locked up anyway, secondly, that we don鈥檛 work, thirdly, that if we do it鈥檚 not as important what we do as what other people do and fourthly, the financial package which had been negotiated for Transport for London has demanded that peak time travel by people using Freedom Passes, including disabled people, is prevented.听 You know I want to hear from the transport authorities that we are welcome and I haven鈥檛 heard it yet.

听

White

Well, the truth of the matter is that we don鈥檛 know what鈥檚 going to happen but that鈥檚 why we鈥檝e been discussing it, so, that we can perhaps get to the heart of it.听 And, well, perhaps we鈥檒l invite the transport authorities on next week or in the weeks to come to get an answer to that question from Kirsten.

听

That is all we鈥檝e time for.听 I鈥檓 sure we鈥檝e missed things.听 Do tell us what they are.听 We welcome your comments, you can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or you can go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch from where you can also download tonight鈥檚 and previous editions of the programme.

听

Coming soon, as the debate about reopening schools goes on, lockdown at home with your children, either visually impaired parents with sighted children or any parents with visually impaired children, how are you coping and are you getting enough help.

听

For today, many thanks to Kirsten Hearn, to Peter Brass in Berlin, Lars Bosselmann in Paris and Professor Robert Dingwall in Nottingham.听 And from me, Peter White, producer Louise Clark-Rowbotham, goodbye.