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Two women meet for the first time to share their journeys from brokenness and despair to where both say they can find the good as well as the bad in their past.

Both were born into the Children of God cult which began as an idealistic movement to change the world, but became known for its sexual exploitation including child abuse and paedophilia.

Petra Velzeboer is of Dutch extraction but lived in cult missions around the world before leaving the community with alcohol addiction, no formal education and no clear direction of where to go. She lives in London with her two children, while Dawn Watson, who grew up in cults across Brazil, still lives in South America.

Both are now successful businesswomen. Without glossing over the horrors of the past, they examine with each other what drives them and agree that speaking out has helped them to heal. They also challenge the #MeToo campaign for continuing to see victims as victims rather than empowering them.

The conversation gets away from binaries of good and bad, looks forward and not back - examining the strength of self-preservation and how vulnerability can become the birthplace of love, trust, intimacy and courage - the very things that bring meaning and joy to life.

An Overtone production for Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú Radio 4