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CROWD CHEERS

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Hello, my name's Stephanie Raper,

based up in Yorkshire.

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I'm a British Sign Language

interpreter that

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specialises in music performance.

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My name is William Ogden.

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I'm profoundly deaf

and I am a huge lover of music,

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live music in particular.

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There's nothing greater

than being in the audience,

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watching my favourite band

with an interpreter in place.

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I was born profoundly deaf

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and I had a cochlear implant

since I was three or four years old

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and it's never stopped me

from listening to music.

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# It's not my problem... #

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I was just at Blur

at Wembley Stadium on Saturday.

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And I've got plenty of gigs

coming up as well.

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# Woo-hoo

When I feel heavy metal

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# Woo-hoo

And I'm pins and I'm needles

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# Woo-hoo... #

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SAMIRA AHMED: And crucially,

you ASK for interpreters...

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- I do indeed.

- ...at gigs you want to go to.

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WILLIAM: Absolutely, yes.

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Having been to Latitude Festival,

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Download Festival,

with the lovely Steph here today,

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who was interpreting for us,

and not just that,

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I was at Guns N' Roses as well,

and Steph was interpreting.

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So I do see plenty of gigs,

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and it's not just me, it's obviously

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my group of friends as well

that ask for these interpreters.

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SAMIRA: And Fletch.

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So, my name is Fletch, I'm here

with an interpreter called Kristy,

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who is voicing over

what I'm signing.

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So I'm profoundly deaf myself

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and I LOVE music and I have done

since the age of about nine,

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when I started to sign to songs.

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So well-known within the

deaf community, but more recently

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I've been starting to work

with Performance Interpreting,

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so I translate the songs into sign,

alongside the music.

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SAMIRA: Can you give examples

of some of the acts

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that you've been doing

interpretation with?

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For me myself, with Ed Sheeran,

I went on his tour with him,

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and also for P!nk as well.

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I like Ed Sheeran's music,

I like the flow of it,

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I like the sound of the music.

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# Come on now, follow my lead

Come on now, follow my lead

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# Everybody, sing it now, hey!

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# I'm in love

with the shape of you

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# We push and pull

like a magnet... #

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SAMIRA: And what about you,

Stephanie?

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STEPH: Really diverse. Little Mix,

Korean pop - I've done BTS.

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I do a lot of rock and roll, I like

doing things like Guns N' Roses,

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we did Slipknot at Download -

that was lush.

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I do a lot of rap.

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There's not many interpreters

that will touch rap music,

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but my first performance gig

was Eminem,

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probably the best gig of my life,

to be honest.

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SAMIRA: Well, you say not many

interpreters would touch rap.

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Is that

because of how demanding it is?

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STEPH: It's so fast-paced,

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and the idiosyncrasies within

the language need to be unpacked

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before you can even consider

creating an interpretation in BSL.

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# Let's go, let's go, let's go

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# My brothas don't dab

We just vossi bop

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# I tell your girl to link me

at the coffee shop

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SAMIRA: Fletch, can I ask

how you prepare for interpretation

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for some of these acts,

and how much work goes into it?

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STEPH: So, for me,

it's impossible for me to hear it.

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Obviously, on the radio,

I can't accidentally hear music,

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so I've got hearing aids

so I can hear a little bit of sound,

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but I can't hear the words, although

I can hear the sound of the voice.

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So I have to work

alongside an interpreter,

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who might say to me,

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"Oh, this is a good song, why

don't you try listening to this?"

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I'll google the song,

bring up the lyrics,

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then I'll play the music

on a music video,

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and I match up the video lip pattern

to the lyrics,

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so that I can get access

to the song.

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Then I need to look at

the body language, the lip pattern,

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because

the body language will show me

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how intense that word needs to be.

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Then I'll look at the translation,

so what does the song mean?

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Because I don't sign it word for

word, I'm looking at the inference.

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What is the meaning,

what are they trying to convey?

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I need to gain a clear picture

of that and learn that,

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so now I need to learn

the lip pattern,

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I need to learn

all the lyrics of the song,

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and then learn the signs,

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so the structure is different in BSL

to what it would be in English.

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It means that I am working

bilingually, in two languages,

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at the same time.

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I need to work out how many beats

there are before the music starts,

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so for example, is it one, two,

three, four beats

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and then the lyrics come in?

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Maybe there are some parts where

there aren't any beats in between,

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so the verse and the chorus.

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Maybe the music gets louder

at that point,

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and that will tell me

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that I need to start to come in

at that point with the lyrics,

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so it's a lot for me to take in,

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it takes normally about two weeks

for me to perfect a song,

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with constant listening,

for me to get it ready to perform.

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SAMIRA: Watching you talk to me,

Fletch,

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I'm just struck by how electrifying

a presence you are.

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You've got a huge fandom.

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You yourself weren't at Glastonbury,

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but a lot of interpreters

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who have been at these places

have been drawing a new audience

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who aren't necessarily members

of the deaf community.

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I wanted to ask how you feel

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about the greater admiration,

in a way,

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for the performance of work?

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FLETCH: It's absolutely fantastic

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because it's raising deaf awareness

for people.

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Sign language, you know,

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it's been there for years and years

and years and years

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but it seems

almost as if it's like,

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"Oh, this is a new thing,"

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and actually it's been there

a very long time,

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so hearing people look up

to the interpreters,

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they see them signing, and I quite

often get comments saying that,

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"I don't sign myself,

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"but by watching the interpreter

alongside the song,

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"it's actually given me

a new meaning to the song,

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"it feels more impactful,

more emotional."

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SAMIRA: William, as a music lover,

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what's been your experience

of going to gigs

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and how far have you noticed

a change

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in the provision and the prominence

of interpretation?

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WILLIAM: A lot has changed

over the years.

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Sometimes an interpreter would be

away from the stage, for example,

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so they would have their own area.

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Nowadays, the artists are now asking

interpreters

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to be on the stage with them.

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It adds that kind of expression

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as well as the emotion

behind the songs,

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so it really does capture

a new audience,

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and people are loving it,

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and willing to want to learn

sign language as well.

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I went to see Sleaford Mods

back in November,

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and it was something else.

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People were saying

it's a new meaning,

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and obviously Sleaford Mods is not

for everyone

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because they can be

quite controversial.

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They like to swear a lot

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and they are quite political

as well, and rightly so,

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but they do tend to express it

in quite an aggressive way,

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but I do love them

because of the way they are.

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# But you can't hide

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# I've seen your face now

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# And you can't lie

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# Ah! On the ground... #

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They are quite admirable to watch,

to be honest,

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because they don't have any filters.

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But to have an interpreter

to also not have any filters

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and to actually almost pick up

on their persona as well,

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with the whole Jack-the-lad kind

of act, is quite something else,

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so it's not just someone

that's interpreting the lyrics,

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it's someone impersonating

what the band kind of represents.

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And it's phenomenal. Me and

my deaf friends were approached

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by a lot of members of the audience,

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just saying,

"That was just incredible."

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And I always say, "Well,

it's all down to the interpreter,"

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and obviously all the interpreters

say, "No, it's all about you,"

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but here's me saying, no, I'm

very grateful to the interpreters,

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and for all the work they've done.

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That gig was just a prime example

of how important it is

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and how there should be more gigs

like that.

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SAMIRA: Stephanie,

could you remind us

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about the legal framework

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for interpretation and signing

at music gigs?

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STEPH: You're taking us back now

to the Equality Act 2010,

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so the Equality Act says

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that anyone who has a disability has

the right to access,

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by way of reasonable adjustments,

their disability

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so they can access

the same level of service

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as their hearing counterparts.

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For deaf people who predominantly

use British Sign Language,

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that is a British Sign Language

interpreter -

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I want to be able to access this

in my language,

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in a language that I understand

and I can communicate in.

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Last year, 2022, we had the BSL Act.

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This essentially means

that British Sign Language is

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a legally recognised language

in the UK.

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However, there's no real government

budget behind it, so they're saying

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that we should provide sign language

interpreters for deaf people,

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which of course we should, because

it's their indigenous language

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and they have the right to access

the same as everybody else

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in society, so that,

on top of the Equality Act,

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makes a piece of strong legislation,

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but the BSL Act on its own

is quite weak.

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SAMIRA: And I gather there was

a key legal case involving

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a Little Mix gig

that's helped improve the situation.

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What happened?

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STEPH: Yes, that court case finally

came to fruition in 2021,

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we waited four years

for it to go to court.

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This is an incident that happened

in 2017.

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Three deaf mums who wanted to go

see a Little Mix concert

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because their children were

massive fans,

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they made a request to the promoter.

June, they made the request.

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The gig wasn't until September.

In June, they were told no.

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They asked again, they were told no.

They asked again, they were told no.

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There was no way the promoter were

willing to pay

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for a British Sign Language

interpreter

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for these three deaf mums to access

the concert.

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Ironically, there was a whole group

of deaf people,

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it wasn't just those three mums.

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There were loads of deaf people

there

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but they weren't willing to provide

a sign language interpreter.

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Their interpretation

of the Equality Act was -

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we'll print off the lyrics for you

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and you can read them

while you watch the show.

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That's not equity,

that's not equality at all.

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SAMIRA: So, what happened

in the end?

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STEPH: In the end I was pulled in

with 24 hours' notice

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to go and interpret Little Mix.

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Usually I'd need a month to prepare

for these sort of gigs.

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Because of the last-minute nature

of the request,

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I was unable to provide

interpretation for the support acts,

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so they only had access

to Little Mix, as the headliner.

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There were two support acts

prior to that.

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Therefore they still took

the promoter to court

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because it wasn't seen as equal

access as the hearing concertgoers,

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and in court the judge agreed

that it shouldn't be

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the promoter that decide

reasonable access.

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If a British Sign Language

interpreter is requested,

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that is what the promoter

should provide, end of.

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SAMIRA: Has that changed things?

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STEPH: It certainly...

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I've been inundated with work

for sure, since that case in 2021.

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That was through

the period of lockdown,

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but I have noticed

since we've all been released,

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more gigs have been coming up,

more people have become more aware,

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and more deaf people are becoming

more vocal about what they want

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when they're going to these events.

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SAMIRA: William, you and your

friends proactively have been asking

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for interpretation at gigs.

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Can you tell me a bit

about how that's developed

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and how far it's something

you still have to do?

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WILLIAM: Interpretations at gigs,

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it's not always there,

and it's a complicated thing to do.

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Sometimes it's almost

as if I have to justify myself

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to explain

why I need an interpreter.

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It's happened across

a lot of venues and festivals,

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and the interpreters have come out

at the last minute to say,

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"Oh, we can provide an interpreter."

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When I go and book a gig ticket,

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I would email

the accessibility email address

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that SOME venues provide,

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and what cracks me up is

a lot of venues always say,

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"Call us, give us a call

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"and then we can be able

to provide an interpreter."

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And I emailed back and said,

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"It's saying in writing I am deaf,

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"obviously I can't hear

on the phone."

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And they tend to get back to me

in a month's time, you know,

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and then they do tend

to get in touch

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with the interpreting provider,

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so, really, it's a lengthy email

exchange,

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is how I book interpreters,

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and some it's easy,

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some venues just offer

the interpreter

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without even asking for it,

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which is very impressive, but

not all organisations provide that.

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- SAMIRA: Fletch.

- When we're performing,

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we always try to ask the production

team, can we have the setlist?

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The singer, obviously,

they have time

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to have rehearsals and practice.

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Weeks before their shows,

they're ready for their tour.

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For me, it takes me a very long time

to learn the songs.

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I don't know what songs

they're going to be singing,

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so it means I have to learn

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as much of their back catalogue

of songs as possible,

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plus the other two support acts,

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just in case they're used

during the performance.

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So it tends to be that, through

their rehearsal,

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I then get given, at sound check,

I get given their setlist.

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I think, "Oh, brilliant, great,

we know we've got going on."

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But quite often they don't always

know what songs it might be.

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We don't know in advance,

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so we're having to learn

a load of songs

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that, potentially, when we get there

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and we get given the setlist

half an hour before the show starts,

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or sometimes 15 minutes

before the start,

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then it's a mad panic for us

to try and work out

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who's interpreting which song,

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get them in our folders,

ready, in the right order.

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"Oh, gosh,

we haven't done that song."

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Who's going to cover the song

we've not prepped for?

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And we've also now got

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a load of songs that actually are

not being used and we can take out,

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we've learned them for nothing.

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It means I then have to rely on

a hearing interpreter to take over

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the songs that we've not prepped for

because, on the spot,

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I've never heard this song before,

I can't hear the lyrics,

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I don't know

the intonation of the voice,

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I don't know the rhythm, I don't

know anything about this song.

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- So it can be very tricky.

- SAMIRA: Stephanie.

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I agree with Fletch

about obtaining setlists.

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Obviously that's paramount,

especially if you're wanting

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deaf performers to come and do

the work, and certainly

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that sort of spotlighting needs

to be more encouraged.

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I don't think it's necessarily a job

for hearing interpreters

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if we can get deaf interpreters

in this industry,

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but then the industry itself

is so complex

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and so difficult to work with.

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My musings probably go towards -

if this is problematic,

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is it problematic because we are

being treated as another box to tick

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on the accessibility checklist

for all promoters and venues?

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When, really,

the amount of time we spend,

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like, listening to this music,

unpacking the lyrics,

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creating BEAUTIFUL translations,

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creating a performance -

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you're not interpreting

a performance,

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you're performing an interpretation,

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and it takes a lot of cognitive

processing, a lot of time,

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a lot of study, and I think,

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until we're respected on the same

level as any artist,

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we're not going to get anywhere.

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If we're just being brought in

last minute

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because they're worried

about getting sued,

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you've missed the point.

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SAMIRA: Can I ask, Stephanie,

how you feel the relationship is

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between interpreters like yourself

and an audience?

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STEPH: The only reason that

I get to do all these cool jobs is

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because deaf people exist.

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With the deaf people who come,

it's electrifying,

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it's wonderful to be able to perform

for the community,

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especially

when it's bands that they love.

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Like, you'll have people come who

have never even considered booking

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an interpreter for a gig before,

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and then to see it all relayed

visually

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and have full access

to the concert,

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it's a wonderful thing

to be able to do.

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With regard to hearing audience,

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sign language is

a naturally beautiful language,

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it is stunning

and it should be taken seriously,

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as other foreign languages

learned in education,

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so, for example, French, Spanish.

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British Sign Language needs to be

considered on the same level.

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There needs to be much more

attention given

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to British Sign Language

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as the beautiful indigenous language

of Britain that it is.

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People seeing it in performance,

of course they're going to go,

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"Wow, this is beautiful!

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"Oh, my gosh, is THAT what

that means? Goodness me."

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It's eye-opening.

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# I'm in love with your body

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# Come on, be my baby

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# Come on

I'm in love with your body

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# Oh-I-oh-I-oh-I-oh-I

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# Nah-nah-nah now

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# I'm in love with your body

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# Come on, be my baby

Come on... #

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