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ā€˜Do you ever forget to update your face?ā€™

Jamie and Robyn are back for Series 2 and theyā€™re starting with emails from you!

Robyn and Jamie are back for series two of 1800 Seconds on Autism.

They kick off Episode 1 by chatting about some of the emails you sent in and catching-up with two listeners who got in touch.

First, 17-year-old Hannah, who says the podcast helps her feel less weird and alone. She wants to know why some think autistic people donā€™t have empathy. Jamie busts that myth by recalling the time he offered his bank card to a needy stranger on the Tube.

Then thereā€™s Rachel, whose love of horses and need to wear the same clothes every day have contributed to her wish to join the police force. The mum of one also shares her hopes and fears for her toddler sonā€™s future.

Weā€™ll be recording some mini extra episodes about being autistic in the time of coronavirus, so please do get in touch and let us know how things are going for you during lockdown - e-mail stim@bbc.co.uk

With Robyn Steward, support bat Henry, Jamie Knight and Lion.

Release date:

Available now

30 minutes

Transcript for 1800 Seconds on Autism: ā€˜Do you ever forget to update your face?ā€™

This is a full transcript ofĢż1800 Seconds on Autism: ā€˜Do you ever forget to update your face?ā€™, as released on 2 April 2020 by Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight.

Ģż

[Jingle: 1800 Seconds on Autism. With Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight.]

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JAMIE - Do you ever get this thing where you sometimes forget to update your face and youā€™re feeling an emotion and then someone saysā€¦

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RACHEL - Absolutely. Constant resting bitch face.

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JAMIE - Well yeah. And people are like, ā€œYou look really grumpy.ā€ And Iā€™m like, ā€œOh no, Iā€™ve just not updated my face for a while.ā€ Ee, thereā€™s a smile.

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RACHEL - Yes, absolutely.

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ROBYN - I have a folder, all the folders are blue, and each person I know has a folder, and then I like put them on to the desktop. So currently Iā€™m interacting with you, and so all the information about you goes into your folder. So itā€™s really easy for me to recall that.

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[music]

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ROBYN - Hello. Weā€™re so excited to be back. Welcome to Series Two of 1800 Seconds on Autism. This is a podcast about autistic life, presented by two autistic people. Iā€™m Robyn Steward.

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JAMIE - And Iā€™m Jamie Knight. We are recording this introduction from our homes due to the coronavirus, so it might sound slightly different to the rest of the podcast. In this first episode we were joined by our producer, Damon, and we read some of your many emails and we phoned up a couple of listeners who got in touch. Amongst other things weā€™ll be discussing that old chestnut of whether autistic people have empathy, and one of our callers talked about how she really wants to become a police officer.

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ROBYN - We love reading your messages and talking to you, so please keep sending your emails to stim@bbc.co.uk. Stim is spelled. S-T-I-M. If you donā€™t yet know what that means you soon will.

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JAMIE - By the way, weā€™ll be recording some extra podcasts about autistic life in lockdown due to the coronavirus. Please do email us and let us know how you and your family are dealing with it.

ROBYN - Jamie did most of the reading on this episode because when we recorded it my eyes were recovering from some tests Iā€™d just had. So, over to Jamie for our first email.

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JAMIE - To start from the top, we had some really nice comments. One of them was from Tracey Rear who described us a breath of fresh air. She said exactly, ā€œWhat a breath of fresh it is.ā€

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ROBYN -I hope we smell nice.

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JAMIE - Yeah, hopefully itā€™s good smelling air. We also had Rachel Kelly say, ā€œI listen together with my son, Tom, 11, who has autism and we love the show. It has led to us having many discussions about his autism and has helped me to better understand things from his perspective,ā€ which is frigging awesome!

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ROBYN - Yeah, thatā€™s really cool.

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JAMIE - Sorry, Iā€™m very bouncy today.

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ROBYN - Youā€™ve lost loads of weight Jamie.

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JAMIE - I have lost loads of weight.

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ROBYN - Good for you.

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JAMIE - Iā€™m doing this like 5:2 diet-y thing. Itā€™s really weird because Iā€™ve been trying to diet for years by changing what I eat which has been almost impossible. But the idea of the 5:2 diet is two days a week I only eat lunch, so rather than change a routine I just skip a routine. Yeah, itā€™s just been really, really easy. I donā€™t feel particularly hungry anyway.

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ROBYN - Thatā€™s good.

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JAMIE - So Iā€™m about eight or nine kilos down, which is a lot. I feel like I might float away.

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ROBYN - Oh well, on our breath of fresh air.

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JAMIE - On our breath of fresh air, indeed. I need a sail so we can sail around the internet on our breath of fresh air.

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ROBYN - Well maybe Henry could help with hisā€¦ Yeah, Henryā€™s a bat. Heā€™s got wings.

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JAMIE - Hmm-hmm. And Lion says he can do the steering.

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ROBYN - Okay, well heā€™ll be steering us to antelopes.

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JAMIE - He would be steering us to antelopes.

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ROBYN - Well, I expect Damon any second now is going to say, ā€œYouā€™re not actually talking about the emails, youā€™reā€¦ā€

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JAMIE - Oh yeah, emails.

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DAMON - Well I was going to say people wonā€™t know who Henry is.

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JAMIE - Heā€™s the bat.

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ROBYN - Henryā€™s my support bat. Heā€™s been featured in, I think it was the last show that we mentioned Henry. Jamieā€™s got Lion. Do you want to say who Lion is?

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JAMIE - Oh, Lionā€™s my big fluffy four-foot long plushy sidekick. He goes everywhere with me. If you ask him heā€™ll say heā€™s 17 years old, but heā€™s actually been saying that for about five years, so I think heā€™s getting a bit shy about his age. Lots of cuddles. He occasionally eats people I donā€™t like; itā€™s great.

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ROBYN - I canā€™t imagine how a four-foot plushie eats a person. Where would they put them?

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JAMIE - Well, they do have to kind of play along if Iā€™m honest. He does kind of go, ā€œRar-rar-rarā€ and then they go, ā€œOh no, Iā€™ve been eaten,ā€ and then we all kind of blush and pretend and humour the lion.. and yeah.

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ROBYN - Anyway, I think weā€™re really supposed to be talking about these emails.

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JAMIE - Yeah, weā€™re so distracted. One of the pieces of feedback which made me giggle a bit was from Daniel Bird. He writes to tell us that he didnā€™t like the producer constantly interjecting and interfering. ā€œThe producer comes across as sneering, obnoxious and as though heā€™s looking down on the hosts. Itā€™s almost like heā€™s regarding them as children and inferior. As an autistic adult I find it belittling and hard to listen to.ā€ What do you think, Robyn?

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ROBYN - Well, firstly what Iā€™d say is that Damon is a really nice guy.

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JAMIE - Heā€™s great.

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ROBYN - And Damon interjects more often than listeners hear because once weā€™ve recorded it he works really hard to edit it. Damon is the producer and thatā€™s a specific job, and Damon is able to, with his interjections, shape the podcast. So things like, thereā€™s an example in his email about Alan Gardiner, I donā€™t know if you want to talk about that?

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JAMIE - Sure. Daniel goes on to talk about the podcast where we interviewed TVā€™s Alan Gardiner. I love that itā€™s TVā€™s Alan Gardiner, as if like he owns him, he lives inside the box.

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DAMON - I wrote that. I thought it was funny.

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JAMIE - He really didnā€™t like it when Damon asked Jamie to stop saying hmm-hmm when Alan was speaking and I was doing all my social skills stuff. Active listening skills? Hmm-hmm.

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DAMON - Because Alan was talking and in the background you were going, ā€œHmm-hmm, aha,ā€ and you get a bit tired of it when youā€™re a listener, somebody going, ā€œHmm-hmm, aha.ā€

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JAMIE - Aha.

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DAMON - So, yes.

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ROBYN - That is annoying, stop it.

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DAMON - Yeah, exactly, exactly. So itā€™s nothing to do with telling him off for beingā€¦ I donā€™t tend to tell Jamie off for being autistic.

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JAMIE - No.

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DAMON - That wouldnā€™t go down well.

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JAMIE - No. Lion would try and eat you.

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DAMON - There was an interesting point that arose from me mentioning that wasnā€™t there?

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JAMIE - Yeah, about the fact that Iā€™d been taught these social skills, at great expense and effort, and actually I canā€™t turn them off anymore. Itā€™s just burnt into my brain.

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ROBYN - You did say that it was helpful that Damon told you that you donā€™t actually have to do that all the time.

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JAMIE - Yeah, it was nice. Itā€™s just a little nice thing that makes me feel a bit more comfortable that I donā€™t have to worry about it.

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ROBYN - When youā€™re trying to understand why somebody says something, like in this case Damon said something to one of us, there you have to remember the context, and context is something that autistic people find very hard. And obviously both of us have a bit of broadcasting experience so we kind of understand the rules of this context. There is a book by Peter Vermeulen called ā€˜Autism is Context Blindnessā€™, which explains, itā€™s not actually about physically being blind with your eyes, itā€™s a metaphor and itā€™s talking about how autistic people can struggle with understanding different contexts and the rules within contexts. But in this context we trust Damon and heā€™s the producer. Although to listeners it might seem Damonā€™s being rude heā€™s really not, heā€™s being really helpful.

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JAMIE - Well, occasionally he might have to tell us something six times, and at that point he can get a little bit annoyed. Itā€™s like, ā€œJamie, talk slower for the 27th time.ā€ Also Iā€™ve got to now remember to talk slower. Thatā€™ll last all of about 30 seconds.

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[jingle: Email stim@bbc.co.uk]

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ROBYN - What weā€™re going to do now is weā€™re going to do a phone out. Oh, I love phone outs. And weā€™re going to speak to somebody who sent us an email, Hannah, whoā€™s from Wales.

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JAMIE - Hey, Hannah.

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HANNAH - Hi.

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JAMIE - Iā€™m going to do this really weird thing of reading your email to you so that we can talk about it, so the listeners at home can hear it. So Iā€™ll do my best reading voice. Can you hear the paper? [shuffling sound]

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HANNAH - Yes.

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JAMIE - ā€œMy nameā€™s Hannah. Iā€™m 17 and I was diagnosed with Aspergerā€™s when I was 14, following major spine surgery to correct my scoliosis when I was 12.ā€ Gosh. ā€œThe trauma from this surgery left me with PTSD symptoms and highlighted my anxiety which led me into counselling where they diagnosed me with autism.ā€ Gosh. And then the bit that made me blush. ā€œI love the podcast because it makes me feel much less weird and alone. I feel relaxed and like I can be myself when I listen,ā€ which is awesome.

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DAMON - Itā€™s really nice.

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JAMIE - Yay!

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ROBYN - Oh, that email kind of made me cry a little bit, kind of in a good way.

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HANNAH - Ah.

ROBYN - Also, Jamie saying, ā€œHi, my name is Hannah,ā€ really made me laugh because Jamieā€¦

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JAMIE - Do I not look like a Hannah?

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ROBYN - No, you havenā€™t got breasts for a start.

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JAMIE - But Iā€™ve got long hair and everything.

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ROBYN - Youā€™ve lost loads of weight as well so you havenā€™t even got man boobs anymore. Not that you ever had man boobs.

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JAMIE - Howā€™s that? Is that better?

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ROBYN - You never had man boobs, and I genuinely meant that as a joke. Iā€™m sorry, that might not have been funny.

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JAMIE - Itā€™s okay.

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ROBYN - Thank you so much for sending that email, and just to let you know that youā€™re not weird and youā€™re not alone.

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JAMIE - No, thereā€™s lots of us out there. Itā€™s one of the reasons we made the podcast is that autistic people make up like one per cent to two per cent of the population, but thereā€™s very little times where you hear autistic people simply being autistic and loving it, that sense of no longer feeling alone or weird or an alien. Gosh, I know exactly what you mean, and Iā€™m so glad to hear that we were able to help.

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ROBYN - Yeah.

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HANNAH - Thank you.

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JAMIE - Iā€™m going to move on a bit and read the other bit of your email, because you have put your finger right on a really good topic. ā€œIt would be really cool to have an episode looking at the stereotypes around autism. For example, the stereotype that autistic people have no empathy, whereas many of us, myself included,ā€ and thatā€™s in your email rather than me, ā€œhave loads of empathy, too much even.ā€

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HANNAH - Yeah, so really I just found that as soon as I was diagnosed with autism if someone was upset about something they thought that I would be useless. Theyā€™d be like, oh thatā€™s Hannah, sheā€™s autistic, she doesnā€™t understand. And really actually sometimes I do understand and I can feel empathy for them, so much so that itā€™s kind of overwhelming and I get like a sensory overload and then I donā€™t know what to do. So I understand and I feel the empathy, I just donā€™t know how to use that to help them.

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JAMIE - I think one of the things that Iā€™ve said to a lot of NTā€™s, itā€™s not that we donā€™t feel empathy, it just might be that we express it differently. Ohā€¦

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HANNAH - Yeah, exactly.

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JAMIE - NT stands for neurotypical non autistic people. Because we donā€™t look like weā€™re experiencing empathy people assume we donā€™t experience empathy.

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ROBYN - Lots of autistic people, definitely me included, obviously I canā€™t speak for everyone because everyone is different, but thereā€™s this thing called alexithymia. Basically what it means is that you find it difficult to say how youā€™re feeling, like to know which emotionā€¦ Like you know youā€™re experiencing an emotion, and it might also relate to other people, you might see someone else is experiencing an emotion, but not be able to say exactly what that emotion is. But that doesnā€™t mean you donā€™t feel empathy for the person, especially if you see somebody that looks upset you want to help, you want to do the right thing, because you know what itā€™s like to be upset and you donā€™t want someone to feel upset.

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HANNAH - Well I guess my scoliosis is a really good example of that, because like Iā€™m in a lot of Facebook groups and support groups online for that. And itā€™s just not knowing really what to say. Like Iā€™m not really much use in those because someone will say something that really resonates with me thatā€™s really similar to my own experience, and a lot of the time I donā€™t know what to say because I have such overwhelming empathy for them because Iā€™ve been there and I know what thatā€™s like. And I want to help but itā€™s just feeling powerless and helpless because Iā€™m just confused with what Iā€™m feeling and what I can do and how to help them.

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ROBYN - Oh yeah, I feel like that. Somebody that I knew, their partner died, and they were somebody that I donā€™t know that well but I felt really sad because I understood that, you know, obviously they loved their partner and so thatā€™s really hard. And I just sent them an email to say like, ā€œI just want to reach out to you,ā€ because thatā€™s something neurotypical people say, but ā€œI donā€™t actually know what the right thing to say is but I just want you to know that Iā€™m really sorry that this has happened in your life and if thereā€™s anything I can do or if you just want to talk please just ring me and Iā€™m happy to listen.ā€

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JAMIE - Itā€™s like a couple of days ago a friend of mine was really stressed with work and getting quite upset, and I could tell that he was upset. And I go to a cafĆ© where Iā€™d normally work but I donā€™t speak coffee. So I asked another friend what sort of coffee he likes and I brought him a coffee and took it back and was like, ā€œI donā€™t know what to do to help because I donā€™t understand, but hereā€™s coffee.ā€ And apparently coffee was the solution.

HANNAH - Oh. Thatā€™s my kind of default. If I think Iā€™m feeling empathy or I know Iā€™m feeling empathy but I donā€™t really know how to interpret it or what to do with it itā€™s like right, instead of trying to think what can I do help itā€™s trying to think what can I do to make that person smile or something like that.

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JAMIE - Have you ever got into bad situations? So for example one of the ways that Iā€™m quite vulnerable is when Iā€™m really tired I have a lot of empathy for people and then that can lead to them doing things. So for example, if somebody is homeless on the tube if Iā€™m really spaced out Iā€™ll start talking to them, and if they say, ā€œOh, come off the tube with me and take me to a cash machine and you can give me some money,ā€ Iā€™d totally go with them unless someone was with me to go, ā€œActually Jamie, thatā€™s not safe.ā€

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HANNAH - I donā€™t think Iā€™ve got any examples like that personally, my only ones would be like itā€™s made friendships quite difficult for me in the past when Iā€™ve had friends going through something difficult and I havenā€™t known what to do with all the empathy Iā€™m feeling, and then Iā€™ve kind of just done nothing or pushed them away almost. And thatā€™s not been great sometimes.

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JAMIE - Iā€™m an engineer, so Iā€™ll say, ā€œOkay, so youā€™re upset about this, this and this, well with my engineer brain what are the inputs, what are the outputs, what are the steps we can take to change things? I try and at least say, you know, hereā€™s six or seven different ideas for ways you could do something, because I canā€™t necessarily help them with the emotional stuff.

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HANNAH - Thatā€™s really interesting.

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ROBYN - Thanks so much, Hannah, for being part of our phone out, because itā€™s not a phone in because we phone you, so thanks very much. Itā€™s been really lovely to talk to you.

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JAMIE - Yeah, itā€™s been great.

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HANNAH - Thanks for having me.

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ROBYN - And have a lovely day.

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HANNAH - You too.

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ROBYN - Bye-bye.

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JAMIE - Bye.

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HANNAH - Bye.

Ģż

DAMON - Jamie, you said something quiteā€¦ a bit worrying in that conversation about being taken away by a homeless person.

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JAMIE - Yeah. Ollie, whoā€™s my support person, whoā€™s in the room but not paying the blindest bit of attention right nowā€¦ Heā€™s not noticed, heā€™s still staring at his phone.

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ROBYN - [shouts] Ollie!

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JAMIE - [laughs]

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OLLIE - Yeah.

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ROBYN - Youā€™re being talked about. Listen.

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OLLIE - I can be talked about without talking too.

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ROBYN - Well yeah, but you might want to interject?

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OLLIE - Donā€™t say anything nasty.

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JAMIE - I havenā€™t said anything nasty.

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ROBYN - No, weā€™re talking about the time you rescued Jamie from being taken advantage of.

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JAMIE - Carted off by a homeless person.

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DAMON - So what do you remember, Ollie?

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OLLIE - Jamie was on the train and then got approached by a wonderful chap who was looking to get some money for a hotel for the night, and Jamie, very helpfully, immediately exited the train with him and then offered to go to a cash machine, and had his card in hand in the train, as if that was going to perhaps help.

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JAMIE - I tried to give him my card and go, ā€œWill this work?ā€

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OLLIE - Yeah. So in the end I think we had a nice chat with him and I think I gave him a fiver and then caught the next train.

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JAMIE - Yeah, and then you got me back on the train and then you were explaining like, ā€œWhere was he going?ā€ and I was like, ā€œI donā€™t know.ā€ ā€œWhat could have happened when you got there?ā€ ā€œOh, I didnā€™t think of that.ā€

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OLLIE - Yeah. It wasnā€™t what could have happened, itā€™s just that there was no thought to perhaps the next stages.

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JAMIE - Yeah, or the safety.

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OLLIE - And he seemed nice but there could have been other people, so who knows?

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JAMIE - And this is about the empathy thing sometimes being like a vulnerability.

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OLLIE - Too much empathy.

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[jingle: Youā€™re listening to 1800 Seconds on Autism]

Ģż

ROBYN - Weā€™ve got somebody else on the line. That means that weā€™ve phoned them and that weā€™re going to speak to them on the phone, and itā€™s Rachel. Hello, Rachel.

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RACHEL - Hello.

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ROBYN - Where are you talking to us from?

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RACHEL - Somerset.

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ROBYN - Oh!

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JAMIE - Oh, Somerset. Where in Somerset?

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RACHEL - Taunton.

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JAMIE - Oh my god. I grew up in Taunton.

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RACHEL - Oh, no way?

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JAMIE - Thatā€™s amazing. Cool. Thank you for your email, your email was really cool.

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RACHEL- Oh, thank you.

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JAMIE - The thing that jumped out at us the most is that youā€™re training to be a police officer, but thereā€™s so much other stuff to cover too. So what do you do at the moment?

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RACHEL - I work in an office that deals with anything to do with childrenā€™s services for the Somerset County Council. So thatā€™s social work and that kind of thing.

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JAMIE - Gosh. God, the memories. I know that building incredibly well.

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ROBYN - And what are you training to be at the moment?

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RACHEL - Iā€™ve passed everything that I need to pass to become a police officer. Iā€™m literally just waiting on the force medical adviser to okay me based on my medical history.

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JAMIE - Whatā€™s drawing you to be a police officer?

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RACHEL - From being very, very young and watching it on TV, like ā€˜The Billā€™ for example. Iā€™ve always wanted to have that role. Itā€™s always felt like something Iā€™d fit really well into. Yeah, it just makes a lot of sense to me being a police officer.

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JAMIE - When I was at primary school I appointed myself the playground police, obviously, because I liked all of the rules, and I used to run around with my hands above my head doing police lights and then like telling people off for running around. Which did not make me many friends at all. But I kind of understand the urge toā€¦

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RACHEL - No, but I understand, yeah, rules and routine and structure. It makes a lot of sense to me.

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JAMIE - A friend of mine is a police officer and he says that the main thing that he learnt from being a police officer for three years was not to judge situations by the initial appearance. He had to teach himself not to make assumptions. And he said that when heā€™s worked with autistic police officers that was almost their best skill, that they didnā€™t make assumptions and they reacted to the information in front of them, not what they assumed had happened.

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RACHEL- Iā€™ve dealt with situations in my life, what I would call emergency situations where Iā€™ve had to deliver first aid and Iā€™m very good at detaching myself from that. I saw very clearly what I needed to do to fix the problem and to deal with the situation, whereas the person that was with me didnā€™t, she was very much like, woah.Ģż

Ģż

JAMIE - The emotions took over.

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RACHEL - Yeah.

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ROBYN - This kind of relates to earlier on today. We were talking to Hannah about empathy. The situation youā€™re just describing, like a non-autistic person, they might presume, oh, well Rachel doesnā€™t care about how that personā€™s feeling because sheā€™s doing the first aid, when actually thatā€™s the opposite because you do care, thatā€™s why youā€™re giving the first aid because thatā€™s the way to solve the problem.

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RACHEL - Absolutely. And I do have empathy, I feel for other people and the situations, itā€™s perhaps how my delivery of that empathy is different.

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JAMIE - Yeah. Do you ever get this thing where you sometimes forget to update your face?

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RACHEL - Yeah, absolutely.

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JAMIE - And youā€™re feeling an emotion and then someone says you lookā€¦

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RACHEL- I call it constant resting bitch face.

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JAMIE - Well yeah. Thatā€™s basically what happens to me.

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ROBYN - Yes, itā€™s true. Yeah.

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JAMIE - Iā€™m sat there and people are like, ā€œYou look really grumpy,ā€ and Iā€™m like, ā€œOh no, Iā€™ve just not updated my face for a while.ā€ Ee, thereā€™s a smile.

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RACHEL - Yes, absolutely.

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JAMIE - But it goes the other way too. I can get really upset and be sat there smiling. Itā€™s like, ā€œAre you okay?ā€ ā€œYeah, Iā€™m fine.ā€ Actually, no Iā€™m not fine.

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ROBYN - When I was a teenager people would often say, ā€œCheer up love, it might never happen.ā€

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RACHEL - Oh, I hate that.

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ROBYN - Yeah.

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JAMIE - What might?

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ROBYN - Well, exactly. But I think what theyā€™re referring to is that my face looked like I was upset or grumpy or something, and actually it was just my Iā€™m concentrating on walking to wherever Iā€™m going face.

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JAMIE - Yeah. Yeah, I get that a lot. Sorry, weā€™re kind of a bit distracted soā€¦

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ROBYN - Rachel, whatā€™s one of the things youā€™re looking forward to about being a police officer?

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RACHEL - Definitely one of the things would be the use of the uniform. I like the idea of being provided with my work uniform for every day, rather than having to think about that.

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JAMIE - I do the same thing with food and clothing. I basically pre pick all of my clothing, it goes in little boxes on my shelf so I donā€™t have to think about it every morning. I never thought of setting up a uniform.

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RACHEL - A uniform for me is something that makes sense. A lot of things just have to make sense for me, thatā€™s all I need for my life.

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JAMIE - Also, it takes me a long time to get used to clothing, but once Iā€™m used to it Iā€™m fine, and if itā€™s the same clothing every day then Iā€™ll get used to it really quickly and then it stops being an issue.

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RACHEL - Thatā€™s something I donā€™t have to think about. If I go to my wardrobe I havenā€™t got to think about what to wear I essentially have a uniform for where I work now really because I wear the same trousers and top, just different colours of the same top.

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ROBYN - Do you think that being autistic would have any down sides when it comes to being a police officer?

Ģż

RACHEL- I do, yes. I think naturally Iā€™m a very self-critical person and I always do negatives which is a really strange thing. I often look at things and self-assess it and I do think that I will come across as very unsociable and unwilling to be sociable, and thatā€™s not the case, I just really do struggle socially. And I know that being a police officer you have to become part ofĢż team very quickly; youā€™re like a little family at work. So that definitely scares me and that does worry me, how Iā€™m going to create those relationships and maintain them, so thatā€™s something Iā€™mā€¦

Ģż

JAMIE - Do you plan to disclose to your colleagues that youā€™re autistic?

Ģż

RACHEL - Iā€™ve already disclosed through the recruitment process and it has been helpful in that Iā€™ve had discussions with the Representative Workforce Team within Avon and Somerset Police. Theyā€™ve been very informative where maybe they wouldnā€™t have been before with certain things and processes, and I know that I can call them and ask if Iā€™m worried about anything. I like to be well informed so that I donā€™t walk into a situation blind. So recruitment has completely panicked me the entire thing, but actually is done really well so theyā€™ve been really supportive in that. Iā€™m not sure if on a personal level when I meet someone Iā€™dā€¦ I donā€™t really know how to say it. Is that weird? I donā€™t want to say, ā€œOh hi, Iā€™m Rachel, Iā€™m autistic.ā€ I donā€™t want it to be an excuse for anything that they find negative about me.

Ģż

ROBYN - You could do, I think itā€™s called a partial disclosure, but basically, so for me for example I donā€™t really make eye contact with people, and if Iā€™m meeting somebody and I also sometimes, I might come across as a bit rude. So if it was someone I was working with like a colleague, obviously not somebody that youā€™re arresting, obviously you wouldnā€™t tell them, but if it was a colleague I would just say, ā€œLook, if I ever do anything that is rude or comes across disrespectful please just tell me because sometimes I can be a bit blunt.ā€ Or if I thought eye contact was going to be a problem I might just say, ā€œI find that making eye contact means I canā€™t concentrate properly, so please donā€™t think Iā€™m trying to be rude or that Iā€™m not listening.ā€

Ģż

JAMIE - Sometimes you can describe all the things about being autistic, so I might say, ā€œOh, I need to use my energy very carefully, I can get very distracted. I tend to be very literal with things and I might not react the way that most people do.ā€ I can describe it that way or I can describe it to people as, ā€œOh, I have a really good focus on things, give me tasks that require lots of focus. Iā€™m really good at structuring things.ā€ So I try and talk about the positives and then try and shape things towards giving me more tasks that go with my strengths rather than necessarily advertising my challenges.

Ģż

DAMON - Robyn, sorry, can we ask Hannahā€¦ Oh, sorry, Hannah. Iā€™m just jumping in again.

Ģż

ROBYN - Rachel.

Ģż

DAMON - Oh no, Hannah was the last one. Sorry, thatā€™s really disrespectful.

Ģż

ROBYN - This is Rachel and sheā€™s got a one-year-old son and she lives in Taunton and she works for Somerset Childrenā€™s Services [laughter] and sheā€™s going to become a police officer and sheā€™s just waiting for her medical to come back and she likes uniforms.

Ģż

DAMON - I know. Sheā€™s the person as well like Hannah wasā€¦

Ģż

ROBYN - Yes, but sheā€™s called Rachel. You see, in my head Iā€™ve got this folder, like if it was a computer it would be a folder, but itā€™s probably a bunch of brain cells, but essentially, to use a metaphor, Iā€™ve got a folder in my head and when I learn about somebody I put all the information about that person in the folder. So as long as I can say like Iā€™ve met other Rachels and other Hannahs, and I can spell the two ways of spelling Hannah and I can spell Rachel, which means I can label the folders in my head and then it doesnā€™t matter that I donā€™t know what you look like because I donā€™t recognise faces, I donā€™t even know what I look like. So that doesnā€™t matter. I have a folder, all the folders are blue, and each person I know has a folder, and then I like, put them on to the desktop so currently Iā€™m interacting with you, and Jamie and Louisa and Ollie and Damon and Rod, so I have those folders in my head in front of me, and so all the information about you goes into your folder. So itā€™s really easy for me to recall that and distinguish you between Hannah, because Hannahā€™s got a separate folder and her information is currently closed because weā€™re not talking to Hannah because we already talked to her. But your folder is open because Iā€™m talking to you.

Ģż

JAMIE - Robyn, youā€™re frigging amazing.

Ģż

DAMON - Itā€™s the most incredible thing Iā€™ve ever heard.

Ģż

JAMIE - Versus me, Iā€™m like, am I going to talk to her again tomorrow? No. Okay, I donā€™t care, Iā€™ll just forget it and I donā€™t care.

Ģż

DAMON - Can I just add that if thatā€™s how autistic people thinkā€¦?

Ģż

ROBYN - Well, itā€™s not everyone obviously.

Ģż

DAMON - Everybody. If thatā€™s how all autistic did think then that would sound like a darn amazing police force out there.

Ģż

JAMIE - Oh, youā€™re taking it back to the topic.

Ģż

DAMON - Yeah, I am taking it back to the topic.

Ģż

ROBYN - Yeah, and thatā€™s clever. Rachel, does your brain work a bit like that?

Ģż

RACHEL - If Iā€™m interested in something, so horses or like space or I have a subject I want to learn about I know so much information about that, but if youā€™re talking to me about cars I havenā€™t got a clue. I donā€™t take it in, I donā€™t retain it. If thereā€™s no space in my brain for it Iā€™m not interested. So Iā€™m very orderly and controlled with the information that I want, or that Iā€™m interested in or that I can handle, and then the routine and structure is very interesting as well for some people because you would probably come and look at my life and think, she said sheā€™s autistic but like her house is a mess. But because if order isnā€™t already implemented in my life, if I have to implement order I find it really hard. But if someone came in and said, ā€œThereā€™s your timetable, thereā€™s your structure, thereā€™s your order, crack on,ā€ Iā€™d be like right, okay this is what Iā€™ve got to do with my day. Like do this, this and this, blah, blah, blah.

Ģż

JAMIE - Thatā€™s exactly the way I set up my support, which is I work with the support to build a routine and then I ask the support people to impose the routine on me.

Ģż

ROBYN - Do you have a horse?

Ģż

RACHEL - I used to, but I donā€™t now.

Ģż

ROBYN - What was your horse called?

RACHEL - She was called Savannah.

Ģż

ROBYN - What kind of horse was Savannah?

Ģż

RACHEL - She was an Arab cross Hanoverian.

Ģż

ROBYN - Well I donā€™t know that that means. What does that mean?

Ģż

RACHEL - She was cross. Her mother was full Arab and her father was a Hanoverian. So theyā€™re two different types of horse.

Ģż

ROBYN - Oh.

Ģż

JAMIE - When you said that your horse was cross I just imagined a really grumpy horse.

Ģż

RACHEL - She wasnā€™t grumpy but she was interesting.

Ģż

JAMIE - Do you want to be a police horse person?

Ģż

RACHEL - Yes, that would be my dream.

Ģż

JAMIE - Mounted police. That would be amazing.

Ģż

RACHEL - Mounted police has always been my dream.

Ģż

ROBYN - Do they have mounted police in Avon and Somerset?

Ģż

RACHEL - They do. Yeah, quite a big force.

Ģż

JAMIE - They do, I think the third or fourth largest, because itā€™s so rural.

Ģż

ROBYN - So how would you go about becoming a mounted police woman?

Ģż

RACHEL - Police officer training has changed, so within Avon and Somerset we have to do a degree which is a three-year degree apprenticeship. So once Iā€™ve completed that I will be a fully-fledged officer if you like and Iā€™ll be eligible to apply. So if a position becomes available as a mounted officer then absolutely I would be putting myself forward.

Ģż

JAMIE - And of course youā€™ve already got skills and knowledge there, so thereā€™s this thing that a lot of autistic people do which is we have a strong interest and then we build a path towards exploiting it for our work.

Ģż

RACHEL - Absolutely. I didnā€™t do very well at school, I struggled massively with school, and when I left school I tailored my education, I wanted to just learn about horses, so I did. I went to college to learn about horses and got a degree in equine science and I did what I wanted.

Ģż

JAMIE - Oh, wow. Before we hang up, because weā€™re going to run out of time, Iā€™ve got a couple more questions for you.

Ģż

DAMON - A couple!

Ģż

JAMIE - Okay, one more, one more. And it is that youā€™re an autistic parent, and that sounds really interesting. How has being autistic do you think impacted your parenting?

Ģż

RACHEL - I think itā€™s challenging for anyone, Iā€™m not trying to take that away from any mum, but someone who has the challenges that you have as an autistic person definitely. Heā€™s very noisy, heā€™s very loud and I love him to bits but I do think that, especially as heā€™s growing, I worry that there may be issues with communication and I donā€™t want to hold him back in any way. So I guess I struggle with that.

Ģż

JAMIE - I have what might be a rude question, so you do not have to answer this.

Ģż

RACHEL - Okay.

Ģż

JAMIE - Would you prefer if your baby was autistic or neurotypical?

Ģż

RACHEL - Itā€™s not a rude question at all actually, and Iā€™ve thought about it an awful lot. I donā€™t mind, I really donā€™t mind, but I think Iā€™d worry for him if he were. I donā€™t want him to go through what Iā€™ve had to go through I think, is all I feel there.

Ģż

ROBYN - Both my mum and dad identify as autistic and neither of them have chosen to seek a diagnosis. I asked my mum about whether she would rather that I was neurotypical or not and she said to me, she said, ā€œIā€™m not sure if Iā€™d know what to do if you were neurotypical.ā€ I think there are parents who are autistic who also have neurotypical kids and they do fine. Thereā€™s something about obviously your child is your child and youā€™re connected to them, and I think that every parent is learning as they go along.

Ģż

RACHEL - Massively, yeah.

Ģż

ROBYN - Thank you, Rachel.

Ģż

JAMIE - Itā€™s been really great to talk to you.

Ģż

RACHEL - Thank you for having me. Bye.

ROBYN - Bye. Thatā€™s almost it for this episode, but before we go, hereā€™s some good news. Since we recorded our chat with Rachel we found out that sheā€™s been accepted into the police force. Hurray!

Ģż

JAMIE - And, inspired by Rachelā€™s thoughts on uniform Iā€™ve returned to wearing the exact same clothes every day. My own uniform if you like. It gives me one less thing to think about.

Ģż

ROBYN - We love speaking with you, so if thereā€™s something youā€™d like to talk about or a topic you think we should cover email us please on our clever bespoke address: stim@bbc.co.uk. Weā€™ll soon be recording short programmes about how youā€™re faring during the coronavirus pandemic. Personally, I think we should be saying Covid-19 because common colds can be coronavirus. Itā€™s more of a type of virus than it is specific, and specifically we have a pandemic of Covid-19. But anyway, weā€™ll be smuggling episodesā€¦ I donā€™t know that we will actually be smuggling them, but weā€™ll be putting them onto the podcast feed so that theyā€™re easy to find. But theyā€™ll be shorter than these ones.

Ģż

JAMIE - That was Robyn Robyn-ing at 10 times Robyn-ing factor. That was brilliant. If you enjoy 18000 Seconds on Autism please subscribe on Ā鶹¹ŁĶųŹ×Ņ³ČėæŚ Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts from. The studio manager today was Rod Farquhar. The producer was Damon Rose, but apparently weā€™ve got a new producer for the rest of the series. How mysterious.

Ģż

ROBYN - Goodbye.

Ģż

JAMIE - Goodbye.

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