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If Richard Williamson truly believes that what he says is factually correct then he should fly to Germany or Austria - where there are laws against Holocaust Denial - (as do Belgium, Switzerland or France) and make his beliefs known publically [that only 200,000 to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but none of them by gas chambers] either in a speech or in print; then be prepared to defend them with whatever evidence he can muster in the resulting trial. As David Irving attempted to do in his failed libel case in 2002.

The Pope lifted the excommunication on four bishops, not just Williamson, all members of the ultra conservative, traditionalist Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) that opposes the liberal reforms introduced by the Church in the 1960s under the Second Vatican Council. (Williamson himself has peculiar views on many things; that women shouldn't enter higher education or wear trousers, that the US military staged 9/11 and so on.)
The original excommunication was for participating in the ordination ceremony, which did not have papal approval, as required by Vatican law.
The Pope presumably saw his move, lifting the excommunication, as an attempt to build bridges within the church; it is likely that it will result in the opposite occurring.
This mess may be his legacy.

It worked.

Do you think it was the Ratzinger's fear of an exorcism or was it the prospect of the rack. Well it doesn't matter but he will remain excommunicated. He doesn't get off this easily. What shall I demand of him as penintence?

How many vote I exorcise him anyway?

How many say I use the rack?

How many say I do both?

A point of information. UK is regarded as Holocaust denial free zone by AIPAC and the German Prosecutors. Five extradition warrants have been applied for and rejected by the British Courts on the basis that holocaust denial, while offensive, cannot be considered a criminal act under UK Laws. Should Williamson set foot in Germany, Italy, Austria, Switzerland, and most other countries in Europe, he would be arrested and, if found guilty, face imprisonment....like Mr David Irving did in Austria.

Williamson is clearly badly adrift.

So what is going on?

The Pope is not a fool. He is not some rabid jew-hater prepared to risk his pontificate by some meaningless and thoroughly ridiculous stunt to show contempt for Judaism.

Please all of those with issues and stereotypes. Just a few lines. Won't take long.
Those who can just see beyond the mudslinging and over charged reactions or get a kick out of spotting hypocrisy where none exists or have a view of a 'pantomine villian' of a Pope. Please just think what is going on.

A lazy, cynical, manipulating Pope wouldn't have touched Fellay, Williamson and Co with a bargepole. Too much trouble. Risky bunch. Wierd views. Self-excommunicates. The SSPX spent twenty years telling each other the the Pope had betrayed the faith. He was cozying up to Jews, Muslims, Protestants, the Dalai Lama. They accused the Pope and the Bishops of Vatican 2 of betraying the true message of the church. THEY were the keepers.

Why should the Holy Father bother with them. He has better things to do! Or has he?

The Pope is due in Israel this year. He has been to Auschwitz. He has visited synagogues. Or was it all a con? One billion Catholics (less a few miserable schismatics) followed that development with joy.

So one fine day, out of nowhere, the Pope throws it all up. Says I was kidding and says he hated Jews all along.

I think not!.

The SSPX are schismatics, dissenters, almost Protestant in their rejection of Rome but on ultra wing.

A few thousand well-meaning, mainly older and/or conservative Catholics did not feel at home with the way the Church changed after Vatican 2. That extended to one French Archbishop who started ordaining bishops in 1988. They excommunicated themselves. Rome did not act. It was automatic and they knew it. Rome relieved the priests of their license to officiate. That was that.

They squatted churches and hired halls. Their attacks on Rome were constant and virulent. They had a congregation around Europe of 'refusniks' who by clustering together reinforced their sense of grievance.

They were suffering, strange as it may seem to those of you do not have a religious cast of mind but can understand that religion has a psychology which is not necessarily something most people think about but is real.

In the state of lack of moorings strange notions emerged which are at total variance with the teaching of the Church and led to distress and disorientation. Look at the leadership!

There are some fifty thousand Catholics worldwide who have lost their way, loyal to a past nostagia and wanted to come home. (Please be charitable when you read this).

They approached the Pope. They wanted the excommunication lifted. They were SURRENDERING to the discipline of Rome. Assuring the Holy Father of their contrition and desire for reconciliation.

It is the Pope job to respond. He is the Pastor.

He does not condone their views but offers a return. They know they must change and that much healing must take place before they can finally renter.

There is no place for Holocaust denial in the Church. They know that and still want to come home. But the strange errors expressed by Williamson suggests that there is much for the Church to do in rehabilitation and it will be done.

The Church is too big a community to be harmed by the current outburst. But in this soundbite dominated media world, those with their own agendas and issues leap up in righteous indignation because it gives their prejudice a chance of a run around the park.

Particularly those of you who believing or secular Jews. Understand what is going on. The anti-semitism you have detected in Rome is like blaming the fire brigade for a fire merely because everytime you see a house burn the firemen are there.

This has been said elsewhere, but we have to remember that lifting an excommunication is not some endorsement or welcome of people. It can be a way of opening dialogue. Remember Pope Paul VI and Athenagoras lifted excommunications of each other back in 1965. No one would pretend this was Rome welcoming the Greeks back - but it was a way of saying "we are not enemies". Pretending the Pope is a holocaust denier, linking it to his German nationality is simply a misrepresentation.

Having said all that, I continue to think it is ridiculous to criminalise holocaust denial. Free speech is able to deal with it without resorting to the courts. Holocaust deniers just come across as ridiculous to most people.

Meant to include this link to an article in the Washington Post by a rabbi suggesting the official Jewish reaction has been disproportionate.

No, Holocaust denial is racism and while racism is punishable in England that doesn't extend to Holocaust denial unlike elsewhere. That is why Jews are not surprised that an Englishman is at the centre of the current episode, sad as it may seem. England is seen as institutionally anti-semitic by many Jewish groups.

Thanks Smasherlagru. Followed the link. That's it in a nutshell. The current world situation is mega-tense with the on-going meltdown and chaotic events.. terrorism etc. The Gaza war has polarised and set nerves on edge. The sensitivity in the Jewish community is set on full and communication is breaking down amid suspicion and mistrust. Cool heads and good intentions all round.Difficult but there is no choice.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

blefuscu - I am an extremely liberal Protestant with an Anglo-Catholic aesthetic - I consider Vatican teaching on contraception and sexual morality nothing short of evil. That view undoubtedly colours my thinking on this as on many other matters.

My argument is not that the pope and the curia are anti-Semitic but that they are out of touch with what is political reality, social reality, and moral reality for, not just the bulk of humanity, but also the bulk of their own flock.

Their thinking and actions can only serve over time to marginalise the church and leave its teachings and authority in tatters.

Good morning Romejellybean and Portwyne. Thanks for your posts.

I'm in a different time zone to you so please bear with me!

I have to visit a customer this morning but should be able to post this evening. Please look in and comment should you be inclined. What you say deserves a response.

While you are considering your response, blefuscu, I'd also like to add a few more points for unpacking.

- Ratzinger's backing of the Papal Knighthood awarded to Rupert Murdoch. A church which constantly harps on about family life and family values rewards a man who has done more to undermine it than anyone with his gutter Press, trash television and, more worryingly, his control over News and media outlets. (Fox is nothing more than a right wing propaganda machine.)

- and last weekend's news that Fr Gerhard Maria Wagner of Austria, an ultra conservative who claimed that "Hurricane Katrina was divine retribution for the sexual permissiveness of the people of New Orleans", is to be punished. - Only joking, he is to be elevated to the position of Bishop!!!

- Ratzinger's backing of the status of special prelature for Opus Dei and beatification of its founder where the traditional role of Devil's Advocate was conveniently dispensed with - the first time in history that has ever happened.

Those of us who have kept an eye on Ratzinger over the years have witnessed a certain "pattern" emerging. He will continue to promote and elevate men who are fascist in nature and will crush, as best he can, those who seek a more open and questioning church. Can you imagine what hard working clergy in Austria are feeling at this latest slap in the face? And it is the same story in dioceses across the world. I know a priest who resigned from his secondary school chaplaincy when an opus dei priest was appointed as chaplain to the local university. What was the point of working with these teenagers when they were going to be delivered into the hands of this 'ogre' as young adults? This is the real point I'm trying to get across. What is happening in the Vatican is working its way down the line to the grass roots. Morale is at an all time low amongst ordinary catholics.

Oh well back again. Another day, another dollar.

Evening Portwyne and Romejellybean,

A stack of issues. Clearly I can't address them all but my take on some of them to add to the discussion.

First and foremost the Catholic Church is a moral authority. The Church has no power per se and is a voice not a prosecuting authority. As Stalin once observed- 'how many divisions does the pope have?'

The Church has teachings which are quite clear but cannot please all at all times. That is what moral authority is. If all were well then you would not need a moral authority. But patently the world just isn't like that. Never has been and never will be. Human condition.

Clearly you both have issues but are prepared to enter a dialogue. Thanks.

Lets take Rupert Murdoch then the case of Cardinal Romero..

Rupert Murdoch is undoubtedly the purveyor of trash. He owns adult entertainment channels. Newspapers which pander to ignorance and downright distortion. Headline in one of his disreputable sheets relating to the unwillingness of the German government to commit frontline troops to Afghanistan.

'the Germans have got to learn to kill again'.

Do you have any idea how upset Germans felt. Germans have spent 60 years coming to terms with the crimes committed by their state which left them with millions of bereaved families and a reputation of moral lepers. The Basic Law (introduced with the approval of the Allies) forbids the German Army from conducting operations. The law seeks to prevent any war launched from German soil ever again. And they mean it.

Murdoch is clearly condoning through his obsession with money and power sin. He is a very bad Catholic. But he is a Catholic. You can't be excommunicated for sin. Only God can forgive not the Church. Look at Bernard Madoff. Anti-semites say that his criminal propensity derives from his Jewishness. Rubbish. He is a self-confessed fraudster who happens to be Jewish. Full stop. Al Capone was not a murdering, pimping gangster because he was of Italian origin but a criminal who happened to be of Italian background.
What they have in common is that they are people and in this very imperfect world all people can and do sin.

I'm sure Rupert got an earfull. If he chooses to ignore and compound his error be it upon his own head. One day, quite soon in his case, the trap will snap shut (as it will for all of us) and unless something has changed, it will be too late.

Say Rupert sees the error of his life choices and retires to a hermitage. There will be another 'Rupert' waiting in the wings to take his place.. Its up to you Rupert, you have been warned. But say he is making it up. You can lie to yourself, you can lie to a priest, a bishop or even the Pope. But there is a higher instance from which there is no escape.

Cardinal Romero was a very brave man. Do you think that the then Pope could have stopped the soul-mates of Himmlers SS from murdering him at his own alter merely by issuing a statement. The right wing death squads and their sponsors (CIA) were up to their necks in mortal sin. Each is responsible for his own actions. Obeying orders is no defence. State rationales are meaningless. Gods imperative overides all human authority. But we do not and never must have a theocracy in which the Pope runs a moral police with a mandate to arrest and punish. That was the problem with liberation theology. The brave but misguided priests were overstepping their priestly function. 'Vengeance is mine' says the Lord. The Pope is not a government with a military and is not God.. He is human and can sin. He would lose moral authority if he were 'temporal'. Think of the Red Cross. They treat both sides impartially in humanitarian terms. Become partial and everything breaks down. Moral authority is gone. And the war rages on in all its evil madness.

In conclusion (I have not addressed a tenth of your issues) Williamson is clearly in a state of sin. His views are abhorrent. He is still writing cringing letters comparing himself to the biblical jonah asking the pope to through him overboard. (see his webpage) The man needs a minister. The pope is dealing with the situation. I wish him God's strength.

My view is that if he shows true contrition as he said he would, it might be useful for him at a suitable point in the not too distant future to take a flight to Vienna and turn himself in to the Austrian authorities and do his porage. Let him prove his words.

Good night to you guys.

#4 SmasherLagru:

"This has been said elsewhere, but we have to remember that lifting an excommunication is not some endorsement or welcome of people. It can be a way of opening dialogue. Remember Pope Paul VI and Athenagoras lifted excommunications of each other back in 1965."

But initiating a dialog without requiring a prior act of repentance/recantation implies that the original points of disagreement are now considered negotiable.

I have absolutely no problem with Rupert Murdoch living the way he wants to live. I do not expect my church to make an example of him - out of the many - by excommunicating him.

However, I certainly do not expect my church to make him a Papal Knight, which is what they did (he gifted $6 million to the diocese of San Francisco.)

Henry viii was one of many who said, "The church is a whore who will open her legs to the highest bidder!"
As a catholic, how do I argue that, that statement is not true? Evidently it is true.

And as for the lack of support for Romero (while supporting morally and politically the Solidarity movement in Poland), the church could have done so much to stop the killings and repression. One fight was against Russia, the other against the USA. That was the difference.

The Bishop's Conference of Puebla and Medellin (who were the men at the coal face in Latin America), gave brilliant comment on structuralised evil, how to combat it, and their work was ignored in Rome. So much profound thinking developed from the suffering in Latin America and Ratzinger did his utmost to discredit it all with reference to European based theology and Christology.

He has a lot to answer for.

My apologies blefuscu, I think we both got into trouble there for comments we made about Cardinal Law and the alleged protection of this man by a certain individual in Rome. I'll try and be more careful in the way I word things in future.

isn't it funny how the same people who attack the Pope would all be out cheering B. Hussein Obama for initiating dialogue with Hamas or Iran. They think they're all experts on the Catholic church when in reality they know nothing about it. Who gives a damn about a priest who resigns from a secondary school because a university has a new Opus Dei chaplain? I have absolutely no doubt the school was much better off without him. As for Latin America - a load of Marxist clergy were stopped in their tracks by Rome - I call that a victory for sense.

As for Latin America - a load of Marxist clergy were stopped in their tracks by Rome - SmasherLagru.

As for North America - a load of injuns wouldnt share the land with the white folks, so we just killed em and took it. - John Wayne.

Brilliant!!

"Pope tells Holocaust-denier to shut up or ship out."

What does that mean? It means that Bishop Williamson should keep his anti-semitism out of the media because the Pope has had enough bad publicity already. Clearly the Pope is possessed by demons. My two Rottweilers are not. Not a mean bone in their bodies. They don't need an exorcism.

Blefuscu - I am afraid your comment was removed before I had a chance to view it - otherwise I am sure I would have been delighted to reply.

If god talks to the pope as I think the Catholic Church claims, I don't think the Pope is listening. He doesn't seem to have gotten the message. When this happens, usually god sends a stronger message....or...if he has given up hope, he'll throw up his hands and arrange for a new pope. I just hope I'm in time to save him. I have a very busy employment work schedule and don't know when I can squeeze my "missionary work" in. I've also got to find my rack, I haven't used it in years. Maybe they can find one left over from the inquisition in the basement of the Vatican somewhere. I know they had a building dedicated to salvation. I've never been to the Vatican. Do they have tours of the torture chambers they used? Perhaps I may have to resort to improvising waterboarding. BTW, waterboarding is not all that different from "the dunking stool" they used in the 16th and maybe 17th century to control shrews. There's one prominently on display in Saint Georges Bermuda right next to the ship that brought the settlers over, I think the Discovery.

I'm using this topic to highlight an issue that is of interest to me.

I doubt if many Irish people could name a Catholic who has been excommunicated from the Catholic Church. I know one who was a priest. A Belfast priest . (It occurs to me that Pat Buckley, too, may well have been excommunicated.) What I would like to know is, how common is the "excommunicated" status in Northern Ireland? Has anything been done to effect a "Williamson"-style return to the Church by those excommunicated (The one I know of is deceased?)

It would make an ideal investigative feature for a Sunday religious program.
Hark! Do I hear the tiny footfalls of Malachi O'Doherty already?