Naive England pay the price
The bewildered look on the faces of England's players as they trooped off the Adelaide Oval said it all and there really is a serious doubt over whether they can recover from .
This was as hapless and naive an attempt to secure a Test match as there can ever have been. The game should have been dead and buried by mid-afternoon with England moving on to Perth with the psychological points and a great deal of confidence restored.
Instead, the batsmen were cowed into submission by , a champion, who used all his powers and skills to beat England into submission.
England can point to Andrew Strauss's dismissal and suggest that the umpiring error that dispatched him started the slide.
There is some truth in that but I believe that the batsmen's approach was best summed up by the crazy run out of Ian Bell that followed two overs later.
Rather than respond to Paul Collingwood's well-judged call for a run, Bell twice hesitated before attempting to make his ground at the non striker's end.
It was jittery and negative at a time when England needed to be positive and full of resolve.
What followed truly beggared belief as Kevin Pietersen tried to sweep the first ball he faced from Warne and was bowled behind his legs.
Pietersen had played Warne so well in the first innings - in which he did not sweep at all - that the leg-spinner resorted to bowling from round the wicket to tie him down. This was the moment Australia knew they could win the game.
I am not sure England can bounce back from this. , is in town, and he will be a busy man over the next week before the start of the Perth Test.
He urgently needs to establish why a group of successful cricketers, the first for 20 years to come here holding the Ashes, continues to be intimidated by the Australians.
They were intimidated on the first day at Brisbane, and again today - both times when confidence, assurance and calm were required.
Instead we saw panic and indecision, which are weaknesses Warne and co have made it their business to exploit.
I've said all along we desperately need Michael Vaughan to be fit enough to captain the side. Flintoff is a great raiser of morale and leads by example, but it's Vaughan who has the tactical understanding to beat the Aussies.
Complain about this postHow can england expect to win a test match if gilo is in the team!!! If i were big dunc i would drop him like a hot brick!!!!!!!
Complain about this postThis abject, spineless performance from England's batsmen is nothing short of a disgrace. Why are Giles and G Jones in the side? They are simply not good enough and Fletcher should carry the can for picking his favourites and not trying to engineer a bowling attack to take twenty wickets.
I, along with thousands of others, am travelling out for the final two Tests, shelling out thousands of pounds of hard-earned cash on the trip of a lifetime. England's batsmen have let down every single one of us. Only victory in Perth will make amends and I'm not holding my breath...
Complain about this postHorrific is the only way I can describe this defeat. Fletcher needs to take some blame for not picking Panesar and the inclusion of Anderson after such a poor showing in Brisbane beggars belief.
Flintoff's captaincy was lacklustre - when defending a small total in a Test Match, he should have made runs at a premium. Pack the offside field and get the bowlers to bowl 18 inches outside off stump and make the Aussies chase the ball. Once the run rate was higher, then he could attack.
Giles should never play a match for England again. It was his missed catch which ultimately laid the seeds for this ignominious defeat.
Complain about this postThis defeat is a devastating blow to England's hopes of retaining the ashes and there is a real possibility that England could go on to get hammered 5-0.
In my opinion this defeat comes down to one crucial moment when Giles dropped Ponting on 35 in the first innings. Had this chance been taken the Australian's would of been there for the taking and maybe we would be celebrating an England win.
Also, with the exception of Flintoff who is a remarkable cricketer the bowling in the second innings was at best abject. Ashley Giles showed no control whatsoever and despite his better all round game, Panesar must be considered for Perth.
Complain about this postutterly demoralising and pathetic
poor team selection, poor captaincy and a woeful performance.
we can forget the ashes
Complain about this postSpineless and feeble.
Fletcher's comments about batting to 8 are beginning to test the patience of every England supporter. The evidence is clear, he's not making runs, he's not taking any wickets, and isn't looking like it. Giles is simply a passenger, as is Anderson at the moment.
The selection of Jones over Read is looking similarly flawed.
They need to hold their hands up and admit to playing abjectly. I'm not sure about a bad hour....what about the other 3 in the morning & afternoon sessions?
Complain about this postI shall be cancelling my 12-day-old SkySports subscription; there suddenly seems very little point in the hours I intended to stay up watching such rubbish. The bowling might have been quite good, but if England hadn't bottled it, they could have batted another half dozen overs, taking the game away from Australia with them.
Complain about this postPathetic
Aggers please give your buddy and England coach this bit of paper,
all it reads is as follows
""current series stats
Anderson, Giles, Harmison 6 wickets taken, 853 conceded""
I cannot believe that I just read DF saying that he stands by playing Giles at no 8 and playing him so that they can bat till 8. This is really making me angry.
If Darren Lehman wants to coach England, then give him the job, he definately has more pedigree than Fletch.
I hope the Uk tabloids give Fletch all that he deserves.Ifhe was coaching India , there would be burning effigies of Fletch in Mumbai !
Complain about this postHopefully this carnage will now show Fletcher what is required in picking a team to WIN test matches. Giles should hopefully have played his last test, 20odd and 0, hardly any wickets and that dropped catch sum up at best a county player at the current time. All well when he had no competition but Monty has proved that a quality spinner is worth his wait in gold. Wicketkeeper is still a problem that needs sorting, I have no opinion on either Jones or Read but it must be sorted. How Flintoff cannot blame the batsmen is beyond me, some of the shot selections would not be seen on the local park let alone a Test Match. Carnage total carnage.
Complain about this postNo doubt about it, this series is going to be wrapped up in Perth and it could easily be 5-0. England just look incompetent, and last summer is such a distant memory that I'm starting to wonder if these are the same players...
Complain about this postI expected much more from this visiting England team, I really did. To their credit they did lift themselves from the embarrassment of the Gabba, and with the help of a truly excellent coin toss managed to put themselves into a position that had the potential the wipe the Gabba debacle away.
Instead, they have compounded it. Probably tenfold.
Bad umpiring decisions are irrelevant - good teams take them in their stride and move on. (And a quick note to any England supporters who might feel moved to blame the Bucknor's Strauss decision for the loss: do not forget that the appalling Kasprowicz decision gifted England the game and the momentum at Edgbaston last year. This one doesn't even come close to a square-up for that).
I think this series died today. The England players looked gutted as they walked off the field, and it would take a heraclean effort from [i]every single one[/i] of them to come back.
Well done Aussies. Ponting and his men were rightly delighted with their effort today. It truly was an outstanding performance, and anyone's sour-graped mutterings won't alter the fact.
Complain about this postWell the negative attiitude has come from the senior management. The lack of belief in players was displayed when DF chose not to select offensive bowlers such as Panesar and Saj. The only justification to choose Giles was for his ability to bat and what did he do today...thats right, Nothing!
Complain about this postSurely now we must have Panesar, Read and Plunkett restored to the side. Anderson isn't ready, Harmison is woefully lacking form and Jones has had a couple of chances and hasn't produced. I haven't got a problem with Giles in the side and the batsmen (other than the openers) have all contributed - the bowlers have been the ones misfiring, and we need to take 20 wickets. It is not rocket science and confidence needs to be restored urgently!!!
Complain about this postno doubt it was a diabolical performance...going into day 5 with 100 run lead 1 down and going on the block to the extent that 10 runs were scored in 10 overs was just a complete shambles. There was no intent to score, or even nudge singles, let alone try to dominate.
i am afraid , though, that fletcher has to carry the can for this. He sent out basically a 9 man team again, it is blatantly clear to all but the most stubborn or blind that giles and anderson are not up to it given their lack of cricket in the past year. All we hear is this number 8 obssession with fletcher yet when our top 6 fail, giles never bails us out, and when they perform its irrelevent anyway.
sorry but its time for fletcher to move on, this shambles has been down to him.
at least we wont have a long drawn out ultimately dissaapointing campaign, we now know its all over already.
Complain about this postAshley Giles: a dropped catch that would have seen off Ricky Ponting, 27 runs and 2 wickets in the match.....
.... the fact that Monty wasnt given a chance to do better is a scandal. DFlectcher (and his apologists) have set a negative tone that has permeated the overall performance.
It beggars belief that this test was lost... and the impotent bowling has a lot more to do with it both here and Brisbane than the batting.
Complain about this postI agree with your comments but without wanting to blame 1 or 2 men for the last 2 defeats, I have to say that Fletcher & to a lesser degree Flintoff have given the Aussies the psychological edge by picking Jones & Giles. The selection of Giles in particular has put England on the back foot mentally as its clearly a negative selection. England set out there stall for a draw at Brisbane & blew it & similiarly were always looking for a draw here. Now we are 2 behind & the Ashes are effectively over & if Fletcher does not rethink & understand that cricket is about playing your best specialist players rather than players who can bat a bit & bowl a bit (!!!!!!!) then I expect more of the same.
Complain about this postUtterly pathetic. Sorry, but there can be no excuses for this display, after the hard work had been done in the first two days. Honestly cannot think that Flintoff is a captain of a test side. Am highly embarrassed for the players.
Complain about this postThe decision-making of the England camp has ruined this series for everyone. Here are the bewilderigly bad decisions which have ruined my enjoyment and England's chances of retaining the Ashes:
1) Selection of Flintoff as captain. He is unproven and too many other priorities to focus on.
2) Non-selection of Panesar, Reid and Mahmud. These players are simply better than Giles, Jones and Anderson - and have all been in the team and playing well which makes the selection policy even more daft.
3) Playing decisions: why did Giles continue to
bowl over the wicket, and why did Pieterson sweep, and so on.
We have created our own downfall. How crazy we are. At least lets make the changes for the 3rd test and give ourselves a chance.
Complain about this postThis was a disgraceful display yet the manager and captain refuse to criticise anyone. According to Mr. Fletcher they wanted to be positive at all times. So is he saying that England don't have a plan 'B' when things are going badly? Instead of deciding to fight for their wickets they adopted a cavalier approach which made us think that they couldn't get off the pitch quickly enough. And to think that these guys get well paid for being brainless. Any team can lose, anyone can get out but to throw your wicket away as several of the batsmen did is unforgiveable. Today they were really rubbish.
Complain about this postApart from anything else, this result is an indictment of the whole Fletcher defensive strategy. The purpose of playing Giles and Jones was presumably to deal with just this sort of collapse, and it failed dismally. The body-language and attitude of the players was wrong from the start of the day - a return to the bad old days of rabbit-in-headlights batting for which the coach must take a large part of the blame. With his selection policy having flopped and the one-day side in its worst ever state it is worth asking exactly what Fletcher has actually achieved. The parallels with Sven are disturbing.
Complain about this postJonathan. We all saw this coming. Flintoff is just not leadership material. There was no game-plan, no learning from the mistakes of the previous test, even the field placings were atrocious. We could have gone into this series with a hungry WINNING side under an intelligent WINNING skipper but with his mates in the media behind him a half-fit Freddie took the reigns and proceeded to shoe-horn in his half-fit mates. Cue: humiliation.
Complain about this postIt was not down to "half-an-hour" in the last innings (thanks Freddie) it was down to poor team selection and, as Aggers rightly says, the wrong mentality. I thought Flintoff was supposed to be inspirational? According to him, he didn't even speak to his batsmen this morning! Outrageous.
I think you have hit the nail on the head there Aggers. There is no need to talk about the captaincy or team selection, as for four days this team did its job and did it well.
To collapse in the way that we did was awful and obviously we still have a major inferiority complex when it comes to the Australians.
Question will be asked and I personally think heads should roll. There is just no excuse for this sort of perfomance.
Complain about this postNo wonder the Aussies think this was a great Test match. The First 50 minutes today tested England's Batsmen and they were found wanting.
Sure Warne did his bit to frustrate but Stuart Clarke backed him up solidly.
Even before Strauss was wrongly given out he was chasing balls and was lucky not to have got a real edge earlier.
The throttling of our Batsmen in that first 50 minutes was remarkable. Had Lee or McGrath been at the other end to Warne at the start of play today I don't think Australia would have won.
It was the remorseless nature of dot ball after dot ball that tested nerves, led to run outs. I suspect it even caused hasty run that seemed to tweak Petersen's hamstring and which may have stopped him being able to pad up to Warne as he did in the 1st innings.
Flintoff's niggling ankle was also tested as he manfully toiled to regain some control. I only hope for the sake of more competitive matches in the series that he has not ruled himself out of bowling in Perth as a result.
Complain about this postDear Duncan (RIP the ashes),
I have saved up all year to purchase air tickets for the 3rd ashes test.
I thought after 4 days of english return to form I was in for a great trip 'unforgettable'. All I can describe englands performance in the second innings as is Gutless and devoid of all character. I fear they may not come back from this and could well be starring at a 5-0 whitwash.
What a shame, my next question is will Duncan or Gravenay refund my air fare because I would rather have Turkey and all the trimmings at home with the mother in law.....
Complain about this postThere is only one word to describe today's play
APPALLING
actually there is another
INEPT
Steve
Complain about this postWhat a shambles - i can't believe i'm reading comments from Fletcher about batting to eight, he can't be watching the same game!! We don't bat to eight with Jones, Giles and now Flintoff comes into that catagory - it's time to put faith in the top 5/6 and start picking the bowlers who can take 20 wickets in a match. Maybe Monty would'nt have won this test match for us, but after Giles dropped their captain on 30-odd, bowled like a club cricketer and was completely lost batting in the 2nd innings it's time for a change - while he's at it, give Read and Mahmood an opportunity as this XI simply do not have the firepower to win anything against the Aussies. We can only hope Vaughan is ready to provide some direction in the remaining 3 tests!!
Complain about this postWhat a bunch of grovelling wimps and cowards these England prima donnas turn out to be! Fletcher should send for Brian Close to open the batting. (Closey is only 76)
Peter Mullen
Complain about this postOh dear, I can't really put into words how irritating it is to lose a test match that should have never have been lost.
We have had warnings that this could happen. For example, in the Sri Lanka series this summer we showed that we have the ability to capitulate under pressure.
How will we get over this defeat? Drop Cook (who is perhaps too young for this Ashes tour) and put in Vaughen (must be about fit by now). Drop Giles for Monty for obvious reasons such as, Monty is the better spinner. Drop Jones for Read, because under pressure Jones has not shown that he can cope. Drop Anderson for Mahmood. Anderson has taken very few wickets and Mahmood has shown he can rip through a side on his day.
This is not a knee jerk reaction, this is just accepting that we are 2-0 down and some players have under performed. If we are to stand any chance, we must make some changes and try and force games.
I still love cricket but today was very unpleasant.
Complain about this postDrop Harmison until he relearns the basics and shows he cares (his performance in the last few overs was embarassing), bring in Mahmood (he has pride, Harmison has lost his); Drop Cook and try Bell or Joyce with Strauss (no runs and looks out of his depth); drop Jones for Read (no runs to speak of); and drop Giles unless they're going to play 2 spinners (his batting isn't worth dropping the catch that probably lost us the match and his bowling was mediocre).
Complain about this postAshley Giles 'DROPS' the Ashes.
We all remember that famous incident at Headingley in the '99 WC, when Gibbs, in his over-excitement, dropped Steve Waugh, when the Aussies were almost dead and buried. It is rumoured Steve Waugh told Gibbs that he had just 'dropped' the world cup. Australia went on to win the world cup.
At Adelaide, after England has scored 551, Australia were in some trouble. Ricky Ponting, who tormented England at Brisbane, was dropped by Ashley Giles, before he had got going. Ponting went on to score a big hundred (in the context of the match), and gave Australia the belief to chase the huge total.
Complain about this postIn the end, due to some luck and masses of self-belief, the Aussies went on to win the match by 6 wickets, and take a 2-0 lead in the Ashes.
i am utterly lost as to how England can manage to be so appalling. Why on earth Giles and Jones are in the team is beyond me. Strauss should have kept the captaincy. Fletcher needs to go and there needs to stop being this places for mates system of picking that seems to prevail!!
Complain about this postI am beginning to laugh now, we are playing like a bunch of twits...
Ashley Giles should have rescued us with a solid 50-100 but surprisingly that didnt happen. Maybe next time. But lets definitely not pick Monty, or even Saj cos that might give Australia something new to think about.
DF is allowed to make mistakes, but repeating them has cost us the Ashes. Makes me wonder why Freddie didnt say anything too ... Tis could be a 5-0 drubbing. Ouch, things couldnt be much worse.
Complain about this postThe only thing stopping a 5-0 will be the lifeless pitches and some good calls in the toss. England will be shattered by this.
They are playing a better Australian outfit (Hussey and Clark for Katich and Gillespie), away, on pitches suited to Aussie run accummulators and possibly designed to nullify our 2 most dangerous bowlers, without their inspirational captain and leading runscorer from last tour, and most successful bowler in these conditions (Jones).
Instead of 1-0 and confidence restored we are 2-0 and destroyed.
This is a sad day for English and Australian cricket fans. I didn't expect us to retain the Ashes but I hoped we would be resilient and make a game of it. In some respects we did that in this test but the impact of losing this one has killed off the series as a meaningful contest.
A real shame, the only upshot being that it should see the back of the post 2005 cricket fan who reckons that Flecher should be sacked and every time we lose a match we should axe the four players who underperform.
Complain about this postThe real turning point was on the 4th day when England couldn't press home the advantage after having the Aussies at 260 odd for 5. England punished themselves by not picking Panesar and are now paying for it.
No point harping on about the umpiring for Strauss' dismissal. Pietersen had a reprieve in Brisbane and also got away with one in Adelaide.
Wholesale changes are required but at this point it will only signal to the Aussies that all their best laid plans came to nothing and now it's just a case of hoping for the best.
Giles, Anderson, Jones out. Mahmood, Panesar and Read in. That would be the team most people would have picked at the start of the tour anyway, apart from Fletcher.
Complain about this postHave to agree with your comments entirely JA. What a nightmare!
As badly as England batted the Aussies played damn good, I don't think we should blame any one player but for the next test I think with have to play to win; we've got nothing left to loose!
I think about 99% of people have called for the inclusion of Monty, the problem now is that we'll expect him to win it for us, so no pressure then! If we'd picked him being 1 nil down the pressure on him to succeed would have been there, but at 2 nil he's on a hiding to nothing.
Harmison looked pretty hapless as did Anderson, but should we replace the two? Who knows! Then there's the Jones vs. Read scenario... Well at least Collingwood showed some bottle, hopefully some of the other players can take a leaf out of his book.
Complain about this postPassion, Desire, Belief and Leadership. How many times have these qualities been missing from England performances in three of our top sports Cricket, Rugby and Football recently?!
The most depressing thing about it is that we have some talented individuals who our coming short when it comes to playing for their nation. The supposed highlight of their careers!
ENGLAND I DESPIRE!!
Complain about this postAbsolutely disgusting.....they laid down to be beaten....the team needs a big shake up....there are two people playing on reputation, and one that seems to be there to bolster the case for a 'proactive youth policy'.
Giles and Harmison need to be dropped - Giles looked no threat whatsoever, averages over 40 with the ball and doesnt turn it. Harmison is supposedly 'quick' - he threw it down at about 135km/h in the final all important Australian run chase. Anderson doesn't know where his next delivery is going.
I feel sorry for Freddie - he has no backing from his bowling, apart from the ever reliable Hoggard. They didnt show any fight in the last innings, and rolled over - extremely disappointing for the holders of the Urn.
Positives - Jones keeping - excellent I thought. Cook looked like he has good technique, Collingwood of course, Pieterson when he has his eye in, Bell's temperament (apart from the run out).....
Cheers
Complain about this postAB
It's all too easy to say it's over... we're going into the next test knowing it's make or break- that means throwing everything into a win. Momentum wins cricket matches. Australia may have it now, but a win in the third test and it's advantage England with just one win in two needed. Unlikely, yes, but it's certainly not over...
Complain about this postWHy are we playing Jones, when sitting in Perth is the best batting wicket-keeper in Matt Prior whose average was over 50 last seasoon and can also keep wicket better than Jones. Let's say good bye to the negative duncan fletcher!!!!
Complain about this postFletcher is obsessed with batting down to Number 8 but seems to forget that England also need to get wickets. If you can't get the opposition out then the best you can do is draw and playing for a draw is, oft as not, the way to lose.
England need a better balance in the side, Fletcher needs to trust his batsmen to bat and select another attacking bowler. The best he has at his disposal is Panesar and he needs to play. If you want to play Panesar and you also need to play Read. Given that Jones is hardly causing the scorer to resort to removing his shoes and socks you might as well pick the keeper most likely to attack the opposition batsmen.
If Fletcher can't bring himself to drop his favourite players then we have to wonder if he is the right man to have at the helm. This isn't the summer of 2005 - it is the Winter of 2006 and we have different players and a different problem to solve.
Complain about this postAggers - everyone is talking about the "monty" issue. You have evaded it again. He is, according to DF, the best finger spinner in the world. You support the Giles decision not because of the runs he makes, but he can contain an end and occupy the crease so that someone else can make the runs. He did neither.
DF is unrepentent. Like Robinson for the rugby he is displaying an amazing sense of arrogance in his inability to see the truth - Ashley Giles has never been a test match winner and never will be. DF's selection of him over Monty was a mistake and he should admit it.
This is the most depressing day for English cricket that I can remember. And I am 39.
Complain about this postDuncan Fletcher said that Giles was in for his batting, so England could bat right down to number 8 like the Aussies do with Warne, the problem with that is that Warne is a match winning bowler which Giles is not, so they should give up his 20 or 30 runs that he gets to bring in a possible match winning bowler in Panasar.
Complain about this postThe other problem with playing Giles is that the Aussies are not frightened to come out to face him were as if Panasar is playing, he is an unknow quantity and will put dout in the Aussies batsmens mind.
The knives are out for Ashley Giles, but it wasn't him who was foolish in trying to slog Warne on that pitch so early in his innings, or who got himself run out. OK, Giles may have prevented England from winning, but he didn't cause the defeat. Did Panesar even bowl well in the warm up games? I don't think so.
Complain about this postVery, very poor. What were they thinking? Some of the shots played were awful.
Giles will get a lot of stick but it is not his fault that Fletcher prefers a spinner that can't spin the ball or take wickets. I think Fletcher should just come out and say that he does not rate Monty. It is very worrying that the bowlers are picked based on their batting ability rather than their ability to take wickets
You would hope changes would be made for the Perth test but somehow I doubt it and it will be same again.
Complain about this postCome on we can't blame the captain! It was the second innings batting that lost us the game.
If we blame anyone it's the coaching staff, especially Fletcher as he picks the team.
Complain about this postI have to admit I wasn't completely surprised when I woke up at 5.45 this morning to see Australia 20-1 chasing a target of only 168. The fact that there was only 4 overs left when they won really does make me wonder why we left Panesar out. Surely he would have helped stem the flow of runs in that final session.
I only have the highlights to go by, but I get the impression that Harmison's bowling was much improved, so I'd stick with him. Hoggard was top man - so rarely lets us down. If Perth takes spin I'd play Giles & Panesar, if it doesn't I'd play Anderson or Mahmood & Panesar.
Should Vaughan come back into the side, the player I'd leave out at the moment is Andrew Strauss - he's out of form and getting out stupidly too often, although all the batsmen (Collingwood excepted) have been guilty of getting themselves out it seems in this test. Is there a case for bringing Ed Joyce in for Strauss anyway?
Hopefully Freddie's ankle will be ok with a weeks rest - if not, then we really are in trouble.
Coming back from 2-0 down is going to be a very tough ask, and we really need to not panic like we did today and on the first day at Brisbane.
Complain about this postI cant believe what happened in the cricket today. I am a pom living in Australia now for the last 21 yrs. I hope they can show some fight in the next 3 tests. Selection for Perth- Give rid of the very average Anderson for Mahmood in Perth and also bring in Plunkett for Giles. Lets try and win one test anyway and hopefully draw the series. We have to make it happen quick.
Complain about this postGO ENGLAND - hold your head up Freddie.
Michael Vaughan is a big miss..this is true..even if he cant bat hed be more use than James Anderson...his tactical prowess would ensure 20 wickets. I also cannot believe that Jones is picked for his "temperament"..he was just swiping stupidly at everything and dont get me started on Giles.......Flethcer's got to go...Bring on the MONTSTAR!!!
Complain about this postFlintoff is a great talisman for the england squad, so why give him the added responsibilty of captaincy? Strauss has the better, clamer, cricketing brain.
Complain about this postA typical England collapse i'm afraid, we are a good team, and this was down to nerves. Collingwood again displayed the qualities that need to surface in the rest of the batting order if we are to take advantage of situations we have worked hard, and played well, to get in to.
Now we HAVE to attack Australia, so come on, give us an attacking bowler, send the message!! Put Panaser in and at least have a go at them now!!
Woke up this morning hoping we had got a resonable score and then put them in for 30 overs. Can't believe we only scored 129 after being 59-1. But i put it down to the first innings declaration. Why did we declare on 551. Why didn't we bat them out of the game on a ground where they hardly fail to score 400 on. 600 + should have been the target, Ponting delcared on 602 in the first test why are we so generous. Also we didn't have the bowlers to bowl them out twice so even more reason to bat longer and make them work for runs. Giles has got to go, No real control in bowling and he isn't going to take the wickets like Monty. Why pick Anderson ahead of Mahmood. Mahmood can bat at 8 and he has bowled well. Anderson has only just come back from injury and so has Giles its like England football all over again. I am gutted for Hoggy and Colly.
Complain about this postAfter listening all night on my headphones via 麻豆官网首页入口 Five Live Sports Extra - this morning is as bad as it gets for an English Cricket fanatic!
The way we capitulated to this bunch of arrogant Aussies was disgraceful! To ignore the needs of the team and enter into what has become a personal running battle with Warne - as Pietersen has done - where his ego takes over from the common sense he showed in the first innings - leaves me to consider dropping him from the team! His ego has become a liability to all our hopes and aspirations for this series! We've got no chance now of retaining the Ashes!
Complain about this postdear team
devastated at todays proceeding lost their bottle it was freddie against australia today and he came out with crediblity.
giles in for his batting thats a joke, jones in for his batting joke,
i hope and pray that panesar is not selected again for the series i see no point in bringing him in now that the ashes have well and truly gone.
stick with jones and giles fletcher your gone to its only a matter of time.
selection policy is worst then pakistan at the moment.
sad day
Complain about this postbye
All said and done, I hope England & Duncan Fletcher have learned their lesson. Its really important to persist with Jones and Giles. Jones has a wonderful temprament while batting and scores big. While Giles may not be a great attacking option (which isn't really necessary in test cricket), but he can extend the tail and bat for a long time (8 balls) and save them from a situation like todays. Oh and don't risk a wayward and inconsistent bowler like Saj Mahmood for an ineffective but consistently ineffective bowler like Andersen! Go England!
Complain about this postThe batters display on final day was ill disciplined and reeked of fear. The game was still there to be won. Blame must also be on Fletchers shoulders as the ommision of Panesar for Giles backfired (again!). His excuse that he wanted batting down to number 8 is laughable. WOuld you rather have a 20 run cameo from a bowler who does not take wickets, or the potential for a bowler to take 5 wickets on final day to potentially win us a match. Makes no sense, 20 runs would not win us amatch but a 5 for would.
Complain about this postFLETCHER OUT
"I refuse to blame the batsmen" Duncan Fletcher.
What's he talking about? We were like rabbit's in headlights on a still flat pitch.
Too defensive, too negative, he can't take this side to the next level, part of which is mental.
Sorry, it's time for Bob Woolmer, and I've been saying that for some time.
Complain about this postWhat can I say? An abject performance top to bottom in the second innings which more than undid the work of Collingwood and Pietersen in the first.
Much as I admire Andrew Flintoff, he was the wrong choice to lead this Ashes squad - it is shades of what the captaincy did to Ian Botham during his reign in the 80's. And the selection throughout the series thus far has been a shambles - Jones, Giles and Anderson should not have made the First Test, never mind the Second.
The Ashes are gone, and if England are to salvage anything it must be the knowledge that they cannot attempt to win a series by trying to repeat the selection from a previous successful one. It is almost as if they are trying to reward some of the successful Ashes side of 2005, despite them being well short of form and match practice.
Complain about this postok its time to send in the A team so all you lads in scotland get your bags packed and come on down.when the poms get back on the plane can you please take the two faced tont grieg with you cause he now has no where to hide.
Complain about this postTo recover from this England need the leadership of Vaughan and if fit(??) should be drafted into the side instead of Cook. They should also drop Giles and Jones in favour of Panesar and Read. What have Giles and Jones done in the last two matches, Giles bowling is poor and Jones's batting is also poor. Fletcher needs to stop having his favourites.
Complain about this postThat was just so so depressing! I went to sleep at 1am with the score at 61/1 but the radio was still on. It woke me up at 4am and the score was 105/8. I honestly thought i was dreaming for a minute, i really couldn't believe what was going on.
Its just really sad, after the hard work of the last 4 days, to throw it all away like that must really hit the players hard. But its not as if that sort of thing hasn't happened to England before..
Sorry to sound pessimistic, but after yesterday i thought this series was just starting to bubble up and it'll really get going in Perth. Now i think its all over - today was the day when we lost the Ashes.
Complain about this postplase dont hurt me any more england.
I LOVE U MONTY PLEASE MURDER FLETCHER AND COME BACK AND SAVE ME, I AM UR DAMSEL IN DISTRESS
Complain about this postI can't believe the quotes form Mr Fletcher:
"As we've said on numerous occasions, we want to bat to eight and we think Ashley can do a better job with that," he said.
What on Earth is the point of that if we can't bowl them out?
And more:
"We wanted to play two spinners here but in that warm-up game against South Australia the seamers seemed to do a better job than the spinner."
Is it possible that the wickets for the warm up matches were not representative of those in the test matches? Surely the Aussies would never do anything so diabolical?
And yet more:
"When you consider Warne is a very good wrist-spinner and he took 86 overs to take five wickets - that summed it up."
Yes, but most of those overs were in the first innings when its accepted that spinners won't play a part. But in the last couple of days spin was very much on the menu and Giles was utterly impotent either as an attacking or defensive option while Warne had them quaking in their boots.
Fletcher is determined to go down with the ship, secure in the knowledge that he stood by his men. That would be most noble, except that it was he who holed the ship below the waterline before the series started.
Complain about this postI've been watch England for thirty years, and I can't remember a defeat like this.
A few points:
1) After this series Flintoff must hand over as captain. There was a time half way through the Australian run chase when his captaincy basically collapsed; random bowling changes after one or two overs, static fields; and you could see the impact on the morale of the England team. It was significant that the Ponting 'breakthrough' came whilst Flintoff was off the pitch and Strauss took charge.
2) We have to stop talking about Giles as if he is a front line bowler. He is a fair 'change bowler' in the mold of Bell, Pietersen or Clark for Australia, who can tempt batsman itno the occasional rash shot. But he can neither attack for susatined periods, nor provide sufficient control.
3) This was supposed to be Test where Harmison 'came good. He didn't, he wont, and the England management must accept that fact.
4) Let's not hear any rubbish about "taking positives" or Engalnd "competing". The series is over as a contest. England to do not have the personnel to take 20 Australian wickets in a Test and we must accept that fact. The remainder of this tour should be used to gradually introduce the younger players into the team to give them valuable experience and prepare for future series. There is not point in making wholesale changes in a vain attempt to salvage the Ashes. They've gone.
5) The ECB should start planning now for a thorough examination of the preperation, planning and selection procedures for this tour, in the same way Australia did when the Ashes were relinquished.
Have I missed anything...?
Complain about this postAhh
Its a great thing to be an Australian living in London right now.
Warne for PM!
Complain about this postA completely inept performance on the final day. The leading strike bowler (of recent years anyway) without a wicket in either innings, the so-called best spinner we have unable to exert any pressure and never looking threatening, a wicket-keeper who is supposed be a far better batsmen than another keeper in the squad (although his record is ridiculously poor over the last year). Take one solice in this humiliation, perhaps the coach might actually play the best players rather his favourites and be positive in his selection, afterall we have to WIN matches and TAKE 20 wickets. Monty is an absolute must, Read surely deserves a chance and why not get another unknown in like Stuart Broad to give the Aussies something to think about. Unfortunately, I foresee another negative approach from Duncan and a scared team of players succumbing to humiliation for a further 4 weeks.
Complain about this postI'm Australian. So I'm supposed to be happy. And to some extent, I am.
Complain about this postBut I must say I was very disappointed with England's performance.
What was in England player's heads were what you, Mr. Agnew said - the most boring draw of all time - after day 3!
England players did not compete nor ever tried to throughout this series. Never attacked Australia. Never tried anything innovative, even with Giles and Jones in the team. Unless they came to Australia with ambition of drawing all 5 test matches, I don't know what they are thinking.
What made me watch Cricket again was the last series. Not because Australia lost, but because it was great competition - every ball was.
I hope England can bounce back in WACA, and make something worthwhile watching.
Otherwise, it's back to Rugby and football for me.
Where do you start. Firstly well done to Australia who must be pinching themselves in disbelief. You may think up improbable scenerios in your mind but to watch them unfold so predictably is truely shocking. No other sporting nation puts their fans through mental turmoil as do England. England flatter to deceive but underlying all the reasons for this loss is English sportsman have a real mental weakness to play tough. Whether it be facing Warne or Penalty shootouts England fail. Failure that I am sick of. Embarassment is one way to describe today but I feel today was more that a simple batting collapse it was outright surrender of meak minded, over paid individuals that tarnish the rich history of English cricket. When will we become a nation unforgiving of failure, instill some backbone & send home the useless players than make up the England team starting with...
Harmison - 1 wicket in two tests
Anderson - unsuitable for Australian conditions
Giles - laughing stock
Strauss - on a final warning
Fletcher - negative & found wanting tactically
Complain about this postTHAT WAS A DISASTROUS DISPLAY BY ENGLAND. THEY WERE TOTALLY INTIMIDATED BY THE BULLYING TACTICS OF THE AUSTRALIANS AND SO WAS THE UMPIRE WHO GAVE STRAUSS OUT WHICH CAUSED THE COLLAPSE.
BUT ENGLAND HAVE THEMSELVES TO BLAME. NO GUTS, NO GLORY. ITS A FAR CRY FROM THE TEAM THAT WON THE ASHES.
THE COACH NEEDS TO MAKE SOME DRASTIC CHANGES. GERAINT JONES MUST BE REPLACED. HE CANT KEEP. MONTE PANESAR MUST BE BROUGHT IN FOR GILES AND THE TEAM PSYCHO MUST WORK ON BATSMEN WHO SIMPLY FAIL TO KEEP THEIR FOCUS ON HOW TO GET THE JOB DONE.
TRUTH TO TELL, WITH THIS BOWLING SIDE ITS HARD TO WIN A TEST AGAINST SUCH A STRONG BATTING SIDE AS THE AUSSIES.
Complain about this postNice of us to fly all the way to Australia to hand them the Ashes Urn and then stick around to play a few exhibition matches. I hope they choose to give Monty some experience of Ashes cricket in the next three matches even though it is too late. I also hope they let Freddie get on with playing and let Strauss lead this team.
Complain about this postI've never written on these things before but just had to say how unbelievably bad England are. When I turned on my car radio this morning I couldnt believe it. England are paying for being negative - Monty and Reed must be shaking their heads. Maybe they wouldnt have made a difference but at least people wouldnt have accused England of being negative. The Aussies must be laughing. The problem now is that even if Monty does come in for the next test he's under pressure straight away, which is totally unfair. It's like turning the clock back 5 years - will we never learn!
I feel sorry for Collingwood - if somene ever didnt deserve to be on the losing side it's him. Probably Englands least talented batsman but knows what it takes to hang in their and not throw away his wicket.
Complain about this postAggers,
Watching from Sydney, I echo your views but have to say (call me one eyed if necessary) that the rub of the green has not gone England's way in either Test. Although there have been two pathetic batting performances the only umpire errors have favoured Australia. Ponting twice in Brisbane, Pietersen not out lbw, Flintoff caught off a no-ball. In this Test Strauss,Harmison and Anderson, not out and then Ponting given another lbw life against Flintoff.
We won the last series by fractions despite domninating many sessions. This will be much harder especially given the outrageous appealing bey Warne, Ponting, and Co. We won also by being aggressive and the selections of Giles, Anderson and Jones plus the pathetic batting today reflect a different approach. Perhaps it is Vaughan rather than Fletcher who is the real brain.
Monty, Sajid and Chris Read must play in Perth otherwise ebay will once again be inundated with offers for tickets at the MCG and SCG
Complain about this posthaving just seen fletchers comments, honestly its laughable...does he honestly think people that know the game will swallow his excuses. he is rapidly becoming crickets sven goran ericson.
aggers, you and your media colleagues need to get your heads out of the 2005 celebrations and stop being media apologists for him...his selection and running of this tour has been nothing short of scandalous.
Complain about this postcome home now! 5-0 to those boasting aussies for sure now!
Complain about this postThe England team psychologist will indeed be busy over the next week. And the following weeks and maybe for years to come.
The effects of the psychological battering that England have taken here can't be underestimated. There'll be much wailing and gnashing of teeth for a few days accompanied by nightmares featuring Sharne Warne as an eight-armed spinning machine bowling flaming arrows across a pitch of fire, the batsmen defending their wicket with a rubber chicken.
Then follows complete nervous collapse, an inability to function on more than a basic level. Simple tasks such as eating and talking will reduce men to a gibbering wreck. And that's only us fans, just imagine what Freddie's going through right now.
Complain about this postHow can Ashley Giles be called a spinner when he can't spin the ball? My mother can turn the ball more than he can. He has hardly played any cricket for over a year was nothing special before then. What does Fletch see in him? England are like 10 men with him in the side; he was selected over Panesar for his superior fielding and batting and what happens? He drops Ponting which cost England another hundred runs and gets a duck in the 2nd innings. I accept that you need a bowler who can bat at no.8 then why not Mahmood? He has pace and potential, then you can drop Giles and pick Panesar.
Complain about this postGiles's 2 wickets cost over 150 runs and never posed much of a threat; he's painful to watch when he bowls in the rough and doesn't turn it. Panesar would have conceded fewer runs and beaten the bat a few times.
The treatment of Chris Read was also a disgrace, Jones was brought in for his superior batting yet can't get many runs and his wicket-keeping is moderate at best.
I also get the feeling that Giles and Jones have been chosen not on cricketing ability but because they are good mates of Fredy. If so then Flintoff has got what he deserved.
Harmison should have been dropped after Brisbane. So far he has taken just one wicket in the series at a cost of over 280 runs, simply shocking. I thought Fredy was the man to get the best out of him. Harmy has been in decline for the last 2 years now.
So sack Fletcher, England don't need a coach anyway, sack Flintoff and bring in Strauss as captain or Vaughan when he's fit, get rid of Harmy, Gilo and GJones and select Mahmood, Panesar and Read instead. The Ashes are probably over but it would give us cause for optimisim.
The comments of Fletcher and Flintoff after the match reflect the way England played on the last day - they were unintelligent and confused. Fletcher's stubborness is sometimes regarded as a strength but it should be remebered that his judgements about players qualities have been wrong as many times as they have been right. He is now making many errors in selection, and our "promising" bowling resources are deteriorating under his leadership. He is a spent force and must go. Flintoff's leadership seems to consist of pretending there's not much wrong and moral is high. Why can't they admit they were dreadful?
Complain about this postWe don't know what would have happened if Panesar had played but he may well have won the game for England. To hear the daft Fletcher continue to defend Giles will annoy all England fans of any intelligence.
That should signal the end of the Geraint Jones/Ashley Giles era. Both are in the team because they can allegedly bat better than more gifted competitors in their specialist skills. They are there as insurance should the stroke players, Pieterson and Flintoff, fail, as they are always likely to do given the way they play, and as insurance both failed utterly. If either had kept Collingwood company for twelve overs, say, England would have saved the match. instead jones was out to the most irresponsible stroke played by a so-called England batsman for years given the state of the innings and the state of the game, and Giles was completely out of his depth against Warne. In addition Jones dropped a catch - Michael Clarke in the final over when it didn't really matter but that made no difference to the miss, and Giles failed to give Flintoff any control with the ball. Panesar and Read in at Perth or we will lose what little credibility we have left.
Complain about this postI thought our choking days were long behind us, but our timorous display with bat today proves otherwise. I'm a fan of Fletcher and the way he has revived England's fortunes over the past seven years, but his gamble did not pay off this time. Monty should have played. He would only have made a difference in the fourth dig - and if we had batted right and not gone into our shells there would not and should not have been a fourth dig - but it may have salvaged something for us. Poor old Gilo had a shocker and my heart goes out to him; the guy will be crucified when others must take their share of the blame. I think we need to review the position of coach as selector and coach on tour, because one role sits in contradiction with the other. This is in danger of tarnishing Fletcher's excellent record, and ending Freddie's captaincy stint before its begun. We played very un-Freddie-like today. Expect the demands for Vaughan to be recalled to start now.
Feel especially sorry for Collingwood and Hoggard who did not deserve to be on the losing side.
Look at it this way Monty lovers: at least he won't carry the scars of this defeat. Unlike me, who will carry them for ever. Anyone got a spare cat to kick?
Complain about this postNigel has agood point o post 4
why was there not more inventive field placements
like he said why could there not have been a one sided field and to try and make the Aussies take some risks
Flintoff cannot captain this side, any longer
changes
Complain about this postVaughan for Giles, if for nothing than his captaincy
Panesar for Anderson
Mahmood for Harmison
Its not the first time we've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory with a horrible batting collapse and it surely won't be the last
Complain about this postEssentially Australia set out to win the game, England set out not to lose the game. There is a big difference in approach. When will we learn?
Team selection has to be questioned. To win a test match you have to take 20 wickets. Fletcher has said that Ashley Giles is in the side because his batting and fielding are better than Monty Panesar's. We might as well pack up and go home if we're picking a bloke that cannot bowl, has a batting average in the twenties and whose fielding is average. He dropped Ponting in the 30's, who then went on and scored another large century.
Anderson hasn't played in a long time and only managed to take the wicket of Glenn McGrath.
What was Jones doing playing at a wide ball from Brett Lee? I'm surprised he reached it, let alone played at it.
Get rid of Giles, Anderson and Jones. Bring in Monty, Mahmood and Reed. At least we might take some wickets...
Complain about this postWhat a travestee!
Much has been made of the team selection, but the selection of the captain has also been a route cause of our downfall.
Freddy may be a great allrounder and a great bloke, but he doesn't have the experience or the nouse to captain against Australia.
Strauss at least does have this experience, and should replace him immediately.
(I'm begging Botham/Brearley deja vue)
Complain about this postEngland beat the Aussies last year by playing postivie cricket, 30 runs in the first session put the pressure back on England. Why have they been so negative - the blames strictly lies on the door of of the management - safety first meant there was only one winner today....
Bring in Monty for Giles - how crucial was that dropped catch now? How can Aggers keep on defending the selction???
Final word on Warne - what a great bowler....best I have ever witnessed
Complain about this postThe aussies have the advantage big time now. We need clear heads and resolve. The panic in the batsmans eyes must not be seen again. Also all this talk about Giles is rubbish it took the worlds greatest ever spin bowler to exploit this track. Panasar is not the answer until he can stop costing us 50 runs an innings with his horrible fielding and score 40 to 80 runs a match. The aussies would love him and pick him out as often as possible. Get fighting lads
Complain about this postit was sad to see duncan fletcher trying to defend his selection when intervueiwd by athers after the game.
Complain about this postadmit it fletch,you got it wrong.
be a man...bring in monty,read,and botham!
Congratulations to Australia. Both teams desperately wanted to get something out of the game but the difference was that they thought the best way was to be aggressive and we took a far more negative route. Being positive doesn't mean playing rash shots, its a matter of picking the right balls to hit and also keeping the scoreboard ticking over, not allowing your opponents to gain the upper-hand. We just tried to block our way out of trouble but only succeeded in putting more pressure on ourselves and handing the advantage to the Aussies.
I agree with most people who are disapointed with the team selection in the series so far. Fletcher defends picking Giles because he thinks we need to be able to bat down to no. 8. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to be able to bat down to no. 7 first. Jones's reselection has been shown up to be weak. He was dropped for his loss of form and without showing any improvement was returned to the team. Absolute nonsense!
I'm down right now but I live in hope that with three test to go England are not dead in the water. It'll take a huge effort to come back but they have the ability to do it.
Complain about this postWhat a waste. England played so well on the first 2 days that it seemed that the lost at the 'Gabba was only a small bleep on the road to retaining the Ashes. And yet, when it mattered most, when they had the game safely in their keeping and with the opportunity to grind Australia's bowlers into the Adelaide dust they froze deeper than the proverbial English winter. All the psychological points they accrued over two of England's tormentors for the last decade (Warne and McGrath) on the first few days was surrendered meekly in the space of two dreary, inept and leaderless sessions of play that proved that the scars of losing so many series to Australia has become a lasting piece of the English make-up. Even if few of the current squad have played against Australia in a losing Ashes battle, they played today as if they were Nasser Hussein and Co personified. Throw in a team of Aussies with vengeance on their minds, a point to prove (ie The Dad's Army tag) and a nation willing them to do nothing but totally savage the combined psyche of the entire English Nation and you have a recipe for a five-nil thumping. Bring on Perth!!
Complain about this post"A Batting Paradise" I believe is the way Adelaide has been described for some time now. Clearly then it would have been an easy decision to play Monty in a game where we needed spin and someone to take some of the workload off the seamers.
Giles dropped the Ashes when he gave Ponting the lifeline in the 1st innings. He didn't get anywhere near making up for it because he isn't up to it.
Fletcher should go for his utter stupidity in picking a team which never had a hope of taking 20 wickets on a lifeless pitch. The batting collapse in our 2nd innings has nothing to do with my opinion. If we had drawn I would still be hopping mad at our lack of ambition from the moment the Coach/captain picked the team.
Complain about this postBefore a ball was bowled in the series, coach Duncan
Complain about this post'negative' Fletcher, gave the Aussies an early Xmas present, by omitting Monty Panesar. The Aussies were already fully pumped up to regain the famous Urn, and the early initiative had been handed to them on a plate.
To quote the obvious, to win test matches you have to take 20 wickets, and certainly Giles and Anderson are not capable of doing that, and the omission of Read in favour of Jones, was another poor call.
Congratulations to the Australians for regaining the Ashes, because that is a certainity now.
After todays depressing performance, with the exception of 3 players, all the derisory comments coming their way, from the Aussie press and media are fully merited. Unless the players show some pride in the next 3 tests, a whitewash is on the cards, and to think less than 16 months ago the same players were lapping up, the over the top adulation bestowed upon them, along with their meaningless MBE's.
This is what you call a public disgrace.
Duncan Fletcher and David Graveney should do the decent thing and resign NOW.
Complain about this postEngland got what they deserved for negative team selection and negative play. Giles and Anderson should have been dropped as you need 20 wickets to win a test- these two won't combine to take 20 wickets in all 5 test matches.
Complain about this postYou have it in a nutshell, the reason Australia won was the Best Spin bowler was taking wickets.
Hello England... This is a wake up call
Select your Best Bowler
Monty!
I blame this loss on the lack of selection, as Monty could have taken wickets on that surface.
Again, England, if you want to win in Perth, even if the conditions don't merit two spinners. You select the best bowler in your team. Even if he can't bat and field. England, the fact you left the best bowler sitting in not one, but two tests is beyond disgraceful.
Complain about this postTwo depressing points:
1. We lost
2. It didn't shut the Barmy Army up
A bad day all round!
Complain about this postStop the old habit of trying to find someone else to blame like in Strauss' questionable dismissal. What about Giles' dropped catch off Ponting to stop Aus getting so many runs in the first place? Cricket is full of mis-read umpire's decisions or missed chances.
Complain about this postWhat is needed is full-on belief and whole hearted trust in the players & the plan.
It all fell apart after 2 overs in the first test in Brisbane. With 18months to prepare & plan for the upcoming test & decide on an opening bowler, Flintoff destroyed any confidence the players had in themselves or the team plan by pulling Harmison after only 2 or 3 overs. Fair enough, 17 off 2 is not a good start, but it's a test match, you can afford 5 or so overs of shabby bowling. Let the bloke find his rhythm & let him know the team has trust in his ability & faith in the plans set in place. And that faith & belief will carry on throughout the series.
No faith in taking a punt on exciting young wicket-takers and going for the same-old, same-old is just another example of this.
Have a bit of faith.
Duncan Fletcher's treatment of Monty Panesar is nothing short of disgraceful!!
Complain about this postBefore the series started , you would have said that Monty was England's second best bowler after Flintoff and how he has been shoved out of the side is ridiculous. It may not have altered the course of the 1st test because England were very poor in that game but he could well have had a big impact on this game. Here is a guy who has got the best players of spin out in the last year and is rated as possibly the best finger spinner in the world so why in your right mind would you leave him out???
England may have to play Flintoff at 7 because he is one position too high in the order currently and make do with 4 bowlers.
The ashes have now gone and pride will be the only thing left to play for now.
Maybe this result exposes the truth better than a bore draw would have done.
... it's Fletcher's egotistical selections that are causing the problem.
Flintoff isn't far from full fitness.. proven by his bowling today.
Panesar should have played instead of Giles and if there was a concern over the length of the tail then Joyce should have come in for the 3rd seamer (Anderson).
Hoggard always bowls plenty of overs, Monty would be able to do the same.. leaving
Complain about this postTo beat Australia you need match winners, people who can change the course of a game. In the current squad, the match winners are Pietersen, Flintoff, Harmison (admittedly not firing but has the ability) and Panesar. That is not to knock the others by any means 鈥 Strauss, Collingwood, Bell are very capable and provide a great base for the team鈥.but when you need that bit of sparkle, these four guys are the ones I would look towards to change the course of a game.
With that in mind, Monty has to play from now on. I don鈥檛 want to criticise Giles as he has been a good servant to England, but he is a jack of no trades and just adds mediocrity to the team.
As for the Jones Read debate I am a Notts man and therefore my heart lies with Read. Jones was brought in for his batting and he has failed when we needed him most. Surely it鈥檚 time for Fletcher to admit to his mistakes and play Monty and Read鈥..and while you鈥檙e at it, give Mahmood a place ahead of Anderson.
Complain about this postForget about the past & lets think about the future, try to get the positives from this match, imagine perth is the 1st test of the series & show lots of charactor. Drop Anderson, Giles & Jones. Bring back Mahmood, Panesar & Read. Attack ponting & hussey, show some aggressive tactics. Well finally all i can say to win matches Follow the basics of cricket.
Complain about this postI cannot believe the comments below. All saying that what we should've done this who we should've picked. The fact is you were beaten by the better side. Not just technically, but most importantly, mentally. We have been in this situation a heap of times losing some and winning some, as we did today but, nevertheless we have the experience to handle those situations. When we get beaten in those situations, we would've of been outplayed but we don't go down without a fight. The English have not got that "mongrel" in them to battle.
Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi
Complain about this postNo surprise really - Duncan Fletcher's negativity threw the advantage to Australia before Brisbane when he removed all 3 positives from the successful series vs Pakistan last summer:
Complain about this post1) Panesar's bowling
2) Read's wicket-keeping and batting
3) Strauss' calm captaincy.
The chickens are coming home to roost - how long before Graveney flies out to influence selection?
Flintoff hobbling out of this test, as lamely as the rest of you uninspired Poms. England need to clutch at straws. Send for the crutches and Michael Vaughan. Bring back Goughie. I'm just glad I had a punt on McGrath's 5-0 prediction.
Complain about this postBit of a shocker.
Incredibly entertaining stuff though, makes cricket such a great game. Got to hand it too the Aussies they have a mentality no other country has these days (the West Indies used to).
Still a bit gutted though.
Complain about this postAbsolutely fantastic!!!
It's a beautiful thing when a team loses an unlosable test!
Just bask in the fact that your best performance of the ashes will go down as one the most deplorable losses in Test Cricket History!
Complain about this postThis test match was lost because we could not take 20 wickets, full stop. With the exception of Freddie and Hoggard over the 10 days we have bowled poorly.
We scored 670 odd runs which if we would have had more of a bowling attack would have been competitive and probably enough. Okay we collapsed this morning, but Shane Warne is a great bowler.
Panesar would have ended the game with better figures than 2-150 from 50 overs.
The most dissapointing thing for me was the fact that Harmison (particularly) was ambling in towards the end with moderate effort, lets at least go down with a fight.
Complain about this postThankyou England!
What was going to be a boring day watching a draw play out on the lifeless Adelaide Oval wicket, turned into an enjoyable afternoon watching the wheels fall off an England team who had some confidence back after the Gabba shellacking. Why oh why did Flintoff not set an attacking field for the last session? Put some pressure on and see what happens.
The WACA is now flatter than Adelaide, and I was expecting another boring 5 day runfest. Now with this result, we should expect another Aussie victory. Thanks!
Complain about this postDefeat snatched from dejaws of victory. But I have no doubt at all that soon we'll hear that Freddy will be able to "take some positives" out of this minor catastrophe, and that'll make it all right.
Complain about this postToo many players in the team played too little cricket before the series began, Flintoff and Giles among them. And too much hope is being invested in one or two batsmen who can't perform consistently from one innings to the next. The same can be said for three out of four bowlers.
I like Jonathan Agnew's Blog It completely sums up the team performance.
Gosh! What an astounding Game.
Cricket is brutal. But This match shows its awesome win or lose.
I still believe England has a good chance of edging back into the test because for 4 days they played so well in Adelaide. And so im looking forward to Perth.
ST
Complain about this post
Complain about this postwell hello there.
i suppose now df will dig his heels in and still refuse to pick his best team. all summer we played with a attacking spinner and a wicket kepper to back him up, so back comes his old chum gilo and all those good performances get thrown away, beggers belief.
upset is,nt the word i am looking for
Winning last year generated massive interest in the side and in the game.
Thankfully the ECB then decided it was better to take huge sums from BSkyB to invest in the playing of the game than less from 麻豆官网首页入口/Channel 4 so more can watch our national team on television.
Australia should now revoke our team's visas on the grounds that their employment is illusory.
Complain about this postTakes England 18 years to win the Ashes and less than 18 months to hand them back.
As in all sports, England have this wonderful habit of confusing good players for world class performers. Its all well and good hitting runs and taking wickets when you are on top but to do it when the chips are down is what makes you a great player. England seem to lack a real bedrock performer with either bat or ball.
2005 is starting to look like the fluke of all flukes.
Complain about this postI think England came under prepared into this series and it has been shown, only play 2 three day matches and 1 one dayer was poor preparation. Also all our bowlers are in poor form except Hoggy through injury or England management not bowling them enough. While the issue of not picking Monty has slapped England in the face as Giles just does not look taking wickets and needs to be dropped. I fear for England for the rest of the series. It was great to win the Ashes, but to give them up like this is just depressing.
Complain about this postJonathan stated that the English psychologist needs to establish why they continue to be intimidated by the Australians.
We (the Aussies) were similarly intimidated by the West Indians for 12 years even though at times we had great teams who beat all (other) comers. Mark Taylor and later Steve Waugh have given our Teams a great sense of self belief which has continued on with Ricky P.
The only way England can compete is through strong and uncompromising leadership. I don't think Flintoff is the solution, great player though he is. Bowlers don't tend to make great captains - Strauss or even Petersen maybe a better solution until Vaughan returns.
Complain about this postSimply not good enough.
Complain about this postI have to concur that this is one of the darkest days I have seen in recent cricketing times. I don't know that it's the sheer abject failure, because there have definitely been worse days. I think the huge damage is that England absolutely bossed this Test Match for 4 days and still somehow conspired to lose.
Much was made before the series of the psychological benefits of a young side coming here "baggage free" and "unscarred". Now all that has been undone, and what could have been a platform for an assault on the Aussies at Perth has been totally ripped away.
On the flip side of the psychology angle 鈥 just imagine the jubilation if we had been able to inflict this result on the Aussies. That's what's coursing through their squad right now.
Three to play and two to win 鈥 a very tall order...
Complain about this postIt is simply a matter of who is good and who is not, that's it!
Complain about this postAs usual Aggers sums it up a treat...panic and indecision! But how can a team in such a commanding position come out on the final day with negativity and hapless stroke play like we did today? Especially when last year we saw the complete opposite from almost the same 11 men!
England had quit by lunch and the aussies 'never say die' attitude unsuprisingly kicked our frightened schoolboy butts!
Another sorry and woeful day in the history of english cricket! There is only one solution...Monty and Ready in and Aggers for coach!!!!
Complain about this postAfter several days of promise in the second test I didn't think that we would win this morning but I certainly didn' think that we would lose!!
The middle order of KP, Freddie and Jones need to be given a right rollicking for their shot selection. They are supposed to be the backbone of the side and they produced virtually no runs. If they had scored 20 runs each along with the time that it would have taken the draw would have been secure.
Giles cost us the game - he dropped Ponting, batted awfully and bowled like a drain. When we needed some negative bowling into the rough and forcing the aussies to bat he was pitching it on middle and off!!
After our poor batting we could still have saved the game by intelligent bowling and intelligent field placing - spread the field - harmy, freddie and hoggy bowl wide of off stump, giles bowls in the rough and at the left handers legs!
Fletcher needs to look at himself - he has been so conservative this series that we have left a matchwinner out, Monty, and undermined Read's confidence by putting JOnes in after he has done nothing!
The next test is crucial - we need to come out all guns blazing. England need to take the positives from this game - there were plenty: batting in the first innings was good, collingwood was excellent, harmison showed signs of improvement. But they also need to think about the negatives - bring Monty in (he offers so much more than Giles) & get rid of Anderson (he is not test class!)
I'm still positive about the series although not as chirpy as I was yesterday!!! Come on boys show us that today was an aberration and win the next test!!
Complain about this postI think this dismal caving-in is in large part due to Andrew Flintoff's lack of experience as a captain.
Complain about this postI thought befre the tour began that he was the wrong choice as captain and the performances so far have reinforced that view.Andrew Strauss would have been my choice-he seems a far more level headed and thoughtful person than Flintoff and is just the sort of calm personality needed when the Aussies put the pressure on.
We need some changes of personnel for the next test if we are going to pull this one out of the fire....beginning with Monty being in the side.This Australia are not as good as some of their predecessors - its just that the naive England leadership is making them look better than they really are.
the turning point of the test match was when ricky ponting was dropped by that idiot giles, he went on to get another 107 runs, if you drop routine catches like that, what do yo expect, you're certainly not going to win. May be giles should take them stupid glasses off and that hat. England did not derseve to win, they palyed for the draw, and ultimately paid the price.
Complain about this postGreat show England. Can't even bat a day. Useful Ashley. dropped catch, no runs& 1 wicket in both the second innings. Useless. monty has to play. otherwise, lets pick 8 batsmen. Giles basically removes a player from the game, so its 10 v 11. anderson's presence makes it 9 v 11. Useless. Come home now, just forefeit the last 3 matches. why increase the embarassement? or alternativly, pick Monty.
Complain about this postBoycott was right!!!!!!! Everyone scoffed when he said Fletchers time was up. Fletcher out thought the Aussies last time he has now lost the plot.
Complain about this postIn not alowing bowlers to play county cricket they have lost form through in activity. Harmison has had no chance of recovering self belief and sticking him up against the best batting attack without convition was fool hardy. He played Anderson as cover for Harmison, rediculous as he himself has not had sufficiant practice. that in turn whcih meant our most attacking and economical weapon Monty was left on the sideline. If Monty now plays the pressure on him is going to be enormous. If cricket is 10% ability 90% mental leaving out Monty simply sent a negative message to the Aussies that we don't think we can win.
Quiet on Giles aren't we Aggers?
Complain about this postYou seem to have lost your bullish edge.
Being hunble is a wonderful trait, yet to see it from you though!!
Duncan Fletcher and Ashley Giles should be sent home on the first available ferry.
Complain about this postThis is now embarrasing. Initially, I refused to believe that Fletcher played favourites, that he genuinely believed he was playing the correct team, but it's very apparent how wrong I was. Giles' inclusion for the first test was dubious but for this game aswell!? You can't blame Giles, he's hardly going to turn down the chance to play for his country, but there is no case for him to play again: chosen for his superior batting and fielding and as a containing bowler, he was ineffective in each of these departments. Anderson was ineffective, anonymous in fact. Jones, I don't think you can argue that Read would have fared any better. The case for Panesar (what a difference he could have made in Australia's second innings) and Mahmood (who can bat eight) must now be irrefutable.
Complain about this postI was saying before this test series that Andrew Strauss should never have been replaced as captain. He had a fine summer and was settling into the role very well until it was wrenched away from him and given to that buffoon Flintoff. Flintoff should step aside to concentrate on his batting and bowling and let Strauss do what he can do best - motivate, manage and marshall the England team to rescue themselves from this sorry shambles they have made for themselves.
Complain about this postAs i have send before, Ashley Giles is the luckiest test cricketer ever. I has no talent whatsoever. He was a medium pace bowler from Guildford and some how got a contract with Warkwickshire ! I would love to know WHO gave him a contract.
Ashley Giles makes Phil Tufnell look like Shane Warne!!
Please Please Please drop this wheelie bin fraud.
Monty Panesar must play from now on.
DF must get sacked.
Geraint Jones, where are these runs you keep promising?
Flintoff you are a very good bowler, and an ok batsman, but you are not a class batsman. You are not as good as people make out.
It is typical English hyping players up. Same as the over paif footballers.
AUS 5-0
Complain about this postWhat, no great job being done by my hero DF from you Aggers, great selection policy, great to see GILES & JONES making a great job of it.
Complain about this postPerhaps he will not speak to you any more if you criticise him?
Like thousands of others, I'm gutted. This was like the bad old days of the 90s. Yes, we played very, very well for four days but that just makes it all the more galling.
Complain about this postFlintof looked distraught at the end and I feel sorry for the big man because he puts so much effort in. Yet, he has to take some of the blame along with Fletcher for team selection.
A fourth innings run chase of 168 should have been damned hard. Instead, it was ludicrously easy. If Fred was convinced at the beginning of the match that picking Giles and Anderson over Monty and Mahmood was the right decision, then he sure as hell knew 15 overs in when you could tell he had no bowler to turn to to help him out, that it was the wrong one.
Giles' performance was abject and has to be his last. Jones too, was dire. He dropped a catchable chance off Anderson towards the end and was partly responsible for the farcical seven over throws off Freddie.
A lot of plaudits went Fletcher's way last year but for me, the man who won us the series was Vaughan. Ponting was intimidated by his captaincy and that showed in the Aussies performances.
England have relied on Flintoff motivating the team to victory - that's never going to be enough.
Today's collapse would never have happened under Vaughan. Period.
Now, the only thing left to do is attack and that means dropping Jones, Anderson and Giles. Bring back Read and play Monty.
Unfortunately, Harmison needs to go too but how can you go into a must-win test with only Hoggard and an injury-doubt Flintoff as your only seamers?
I'm really, really annoyed because, Ponting and Warne apart, this Aussie team are no better than the one England beat last year. Unfortunately, we've helped them with our negative team selection.
Strap your knee up Vaughny, your country needs you.
Australia got a few bad decisions in England as well especially Damion Martyn.So there was two bad decisions so what?there are five other batsmen in the team.
Complain about this postThe majority of the blame has to be placed upon the management team. Strauss should have retained the captaincy - it didn't work for our best ever all-rounder Botham, and it won't work for Flintoff - we never learn from our mistakes. Trescothick should never have made it to the aircraft if he still had personal stress issues. Read should still be keeper - infinitely a better keeper than Jones. Panesar should have played in both tests at the expense of either Giles or Anderson.
Time for Graveney to take some decision-making away from Fletcher/Flintoff, and lets get back to the basics of picking the strongest team, rather than picking guys who are all in the same ISM Management stable.
Complain about this postI am truly embarrassed but some how it doesn't feels like a shock. We had the game by the scruff and blew it. I really don't know how the boys will be able to collect themselves for the rest of the series.
Complain about this postGiles has been picked for runs which is a completely defensive choice. He's never going to be worth more than about 20 odd anyway. Well we have to win 2 tests now so there is no choice but to attack and that means Panesar.
I am surprised more has not been made of some of the other non-performing bowlers. Stuart Broad is at the academy I believe. I am convinced he could get more wickets than Anderson in Perth. He is also capable of getting the 20 runs that Fletcher so covets from Giles.
Complain about this postYou have to stop kicking your team in the head, and looking for excuses. You are in a building mode at the moment. Every team goes through it. Look at the Windies.
Complain about this postThe 'blame' doesn't lie wholly and solely with certain players. You just came up against a juggernaut of a team. If it was Rugby, we're like the All Blacks - virtually unbeatable.
Give yourselves and your team a break. You can't win every game. Look at your England Soccer team. Hahahahahahahaha
What a hammer blow for the team. This just proves its time for change, and i don't just mean in the team put out to play the tests.
Big Dunc needs to realise that he's not going to be able to field last year鈥檚 ashes winning team.
Why not try and get something out of the remaining tests for future players? Get Broad into the squad and give him a go, what鈥檚 to loose that isn't already lost!
Complain about this postPaneser in, Giles out.
Absolutely attrocious. We lost our bottle - shameful for professional sporstmen, even against the best ever bowler in Test cricket. Panessar AND Read MUST come back. If not, Fletcher MUST go, as it otherwise pure ego and stubborness on his behalf.
Complain about this postHey don't so sad England. It was a top contest...but the BEST TEAM WON!
Complain about this postI don't understand the criticism of Flintoff as Captain. Vaughan spent half his time off the pitch in 2005 being told what too do by Fletcher and didn't particularly play well.
Fletcher and not Flintoff's tactics are at fault here. We are not picking a side to win but simply not too lose and when you go out with that mentality you get situations like today.
Complain about this postGiles has still made more runs than Jones in the 2 tests..... Not bad considering Jones was brought in for his batting He's never looked comfortable and his footwork is dire. 2 poor dismissals in the second test. How long before he drops a catch and costs England a hundred or so?
Fletcher should pick the team on merit, not on an "old boy" and "who's mates with Freddy" basis.
Can Fletcher survive?
Complain about this postA disgraceful perfrormance. The England team should hang their heads in shame. Where is their fighting spirit? I feel sorry for the poor fans who havwe shelled out thousands on flights and hotels. Why wont Fletcher pick Monty? Giles couldn't spin a pound coin never mind a cricket ball. Harmison is a lightweight and Freddy is not up to being a captain.
Complain about this postEngland played a good test but even there best is not good enough to bet Australia when they are on there game. They need to play for the full 5 days and it was clear that they mentally had moved on to the next test already.
They were given a lesson today and I doubt they will recover.
Complain about this postTime has come for someone to be gracious enough to resign. It was that bad. And that person has to be Duncan Fletcher.
I cannot believe that he stuck with the same bowling line up after Brisbane.
England have to start playing like a team again. Someone should have gone onto the pitch and told the batsmen to get some runs. Where is the leadership. We have to pick the BEST players for their jobs, not just incase. If they fail, then they fail, but at least England are attacking.
It is not really the time to do it mid series, but the side has to change. Different coach, captain, keeper and bowlers. Let Flintoff do what he does best, i don't think he is a world class captain.
Please Duncan, do the right thing and p off, and come on England, show some of that fight that is there somewhere.
Complain about this postWith the exception of Collingwood, Pietersen, Flintoff and Hoggard (and possibly Bell), what have the other members of the team contributed thus far in the series? Cook, Strauss and Jones with the bat? Giles, Harmison and Anderson with the ball? Oh dear!
Hmmmm
Complain about this postSuffer in your jocks, that's what you get for negative selections and negative play. What a terrible chocking display ... only gutted that I've tickets for Boxing Day and Sydney.
Complain about this postObviously massively disappointing. I just don't understand it. We have possibly the most exciting spinner that we have had for years, certainly that I can remember and now at 2-0 we will never know the impact he could have made in both test matches, especially Adelaide. What was Giles brought in to do? The way I see it, he got no runs, 2 expensive wickets when it was all too late and of course crucially dropped Ponting in their first innings. Thanks for turning up.... Giles is a good pro! No better and no worse. By the way, the fast bowlers should either turn up or go home. Select Stuart Broad.
Complain about this postWhy does Monty not play and we continue with Jones who can supposedly bat? Let's be positive and make bold choices!
Complain about this postTrying to defend for a whole day is ridiculous. We should have learnt from the Oval that that approach does not work against any decent bowling attack, let alone the best in the world. Back then is was only when KP attacked them that the draw was secured.
More worrying is the depth of Aussie batting and our ineffective bowling - there is no way we are going to get them out for anything less than 400 so I can't see where a win is going to come from.
And what an irony - Giles scores a duck and drops a catch. Doubt it will help poor Monty's cause though.
Complain about this postJonathon,
apart from scrutiny of some abysmal English performances in this game when it mattered most, selection policy must come under fire. Giles's impotent all round performance; Jones continued poor batting, Harmless and Anderson 鈥 well enough said. How can it even be uttered under one's breath that Giles should be in the side. A complete and utter nonsense - especially when the argument is that you need an extra batter. His complete lack of penetration doesn鈥檛 count in weighing up selection options. I鈥檓 sure he鈥檚 a jolly good fellow and all of that. On a spinning track- what deluded madness. Why not match Panesar up with the rest of the trundlers in terms of batting and fielding. The failed logic used by commentators and selectors to argue for Giles or Anderson for that matter is absolutely mind-boggling.
Complain about this postI'll probably get bagged for being Australian but I was disgusted in England today. I have looked forward to this Ashes for the main reason that England would try to consistently attack Australia. India have success against us because they attack whenever they can. You produce the crap that was shown today and you deserve to get flogged. Giles is one of the worst spinners, technically and tactically, I have ever seen. The keeper was only a grade cricketer in Qld so how he gets a nod is beyond me. Try Monty and attack. Get Darren Lehmann. He knows one way and one way only and he is very astute as well. It may be beyond your belief to read this from an Aussie but I am quite hollow to think we have a 5-0 whitewash coming up.
Complain about this postLets spare a thought for Collingwood, who performed magnificently throughout this match.
At least one of our"batsmen" can at least read the game and understand what is needed.
To settle the partisan thoughts of many here i can be sure that changes will be made for the 3rd test. Hopefully it will fletcher making way for boycott.
Complain about this postThis reminds me of the pain of following England through the dismal mid 90s.
Complain about this postChanges must be made before Perth,there is nothing to loose anymore.Fletcher's favourites have failed again and he must take the blame. Bring in Panasar & Mahmood at the expense of Gilo & Anderson.
I too am seriously considering cancelling Sky sport subs as I cant suffer too many more sleepless nights watching this dismal,humiliating tripe
The 2nd innings was dreadful but the 1st innings was excellent. They can bat but can they bowl ?
England took 10 wickets in the 1st Test and 14 in the 2nd Test and given 20 are usually required per Test to win a Test, this strongly suggests that the bowling should be the biggest concern.
When you've got to win a Test (or two !) you've got to pick the best bowlers and rely on the main batsman to do their job. Conclusion: No8 should be a better bowler than he is a batsman.
Complain about this postAs much as Fletcher wants to concentrate on strengthening our batting order, we need a threat in our bowling attack! in the first test, Australia declared both their innings, and the only time we've bowled them out was for over 500!! Our batting isn't the problem, we don't need players like Giles. We need wicket takers. We are seriously missing Simon Jones, and Strauss should be captain, not Flintoff. Anderson has bowled relatively well, he's been unlucky, but if he's not getting wickets, then maybe it's time to give Mahmood a go.
Complain about this postEvery big decision England have had to make they have got it right. One is excusable, three is stupid. Flintoff can't do everything and his batting shows that, the pressures of captaincy are too much for him. Strauss flourished with the bat as captain and showed that he could lead the side in a way similar to Vaughan. Giles, what has he done to deserve a place, he has always been overrated by Fletcher. He has not scored that many runs, he hasn't taken many wickets even on a fifth day (3-262, this series) and he dropped a massively important catch (ponting). He has been a massive mistake and by picking him the ascendancy was handed to the Aussiea. Jones has not kept badly, but then again he hasn't scored many runs, he's in the team to do that. He needs to be scoring 60s and 70s, not 30s. Read showed he could bat, but wasn't given a chace. I hate to say it, but England need to make drastic changes and stop living in the past. 2005 Ashes were the height of Jones, Giles (although height is a bit of an oversatement for these two) Flintoff (i'm not suggesting dropping him ,rather this was hie peak and that he will never pay as well again) and Harmison. Engalnd need to move on and if they aren't performing drop them. There are plenty of quality young bowlers in the country (Broad for one) and we need to let these talents flourish at the highest level. On a final point, why is Anderson in the Australia, he's been injured for a very long time and hasn't performed consistently well since he came into the side, whereas Mahmood has shown signs of potential and has played regular cricket. The England team is living in the past and if they lose 5-0 no one is going to remember the Oval last summer.
Complain about this postBrilliant performance by the Australians!
Complain about this postEngland now need to think outside the box to retain the Ashes! Jones should be dropped on the basis he is not performing with the bat and is an average keeper, his replacement should be Collingwood who has kept in limited overs cricket for Durham. This would allow for the selection of Panaser alongside Giles for the next test. Anderson should also be dropped for Mahmood whose batting also strengthens the lower oder!
Complain about this postWell done Mr Agnew! Once again no mention of how wrong England have been to not pick Monty in these games. We can only wonder what we may have restricted Australia to had Monty been bowling in the first innings. It was only a day later that Warne was spinning it at right angles! And the less said about Giles pathetic bowling in the second innings the better!
Fletcher stated "As we've said on numerous occasions, we want to bat to eight and we think Ashley can do a better job with that," Surely if thats the case we will be picking Vaughan at eight when he is fit, and have him bowling just outside leg stump from around the wicket, with a packed leg side field!
I think maybe its time for Fletcher to do what he does best- coach- and for selection to be taken out of his hands.
Complain about this postIs fletcher the right man for the job ? Didnt the last soccer manager ericsson have his favorites wernt we supposed to win the last world cup how can giles,anderson and jones all still be playing when they either cant bat,bowl,keep wicket or play under pressure maybe freddie can be the coach as well as he seems to do everything else!!!!!
Complain about this postFreddie give up the captains job give it to Strauss get back to what you do best battin and bowling remeber what happened to botham hero one minute with the press, crap player the next with them ( never played to his best after he was captain)
Maybe we can salvage some pride over the next 3 tests i do hope on the day i go to perth that we havent given away the ashes .
Play to win england take a leaf out of Ponting and his team never say defeat!!!
Time for Duncan Fletcher to go I'm afraid as he's taken the team as far as he can. How can he defend the selection of Giles over Panesar, when Giles only worthwile contribution was to drop Ponting.
Complain about this postUtterly disgusted by this shambles. Agnew's attitude was epitomized this morning when he said to Boycott that he was tired of talking about this Test match and wanted to talk about the future!!!
But Agnew, you can't figure out what to do about the future unless you acknowledge what's going on in the PRESENT and then correct it!
Mediocrity is the name of the game when it comes to selection policy. These folks are so fond of it but I assure you Mr Agnew that whatever else might happen, you will assuredly not win the Ashes with Well-Intentioned Mediocrity.
Complain about this postWell,what can i say i am a Englishman living in Australia and i feel embarrased to be English.
Complain about this postI am a laughing stock at work, and so is the whole of the English side.
I am deeply upset by this inept and cowardly display by Fletcher he should be hung out to dry.
I just hope people in England realise that This team and disgusting managment has made us a joke here.
I feel sory for for all the people who have spent thousands to come to Australia to watch this.
I feel now that we will be beat 5-0 and we will lay on our backs like this last test match and show our yellow stomach
When Geoff Boycott said before the Ashes that Fletcher should go he was generally criticised and derided for making such a statement. Now it seems that many would agree with him. In truth, he took England as far as he could after the previous Ashes. Since then, his selection policy based around picking players he likes belongs in schoolboy cricket.
Fletcher has the luxury of having someone in the squad he admitted as being the best finger spinner in world cricket, yet for reasons only he himself must understand, he chooses not to play him in favour of someone whose presence in the team has always been difficult to fully justify.
The most eagerly awaited series of all time has been ruined and Fletcher must own up and admit his mistakes, not insult the public by insisting he was right all along.
Complain about this postThe Ashes are now as good as lost. I believe serious errors of judgment have been made by the management. Firstly, Strauss should have remained as Captain: No man can bat, bowl and Captain the side, no matter how good he is. Secondly, Read should have kept his place, and finally, Panesar should have played, either with, or instead of Giles. England have allowed themselves to be out-thought and out-played by an ageing, and highly beatable, Australian side.
Complain about this postIf as is reported, Fletcher said before the start of Day 5 "We'll just wait and see what happens", then you know why we lost.
You can add a second reason if you consider why a double-centurian in the first innings can only score 22 off 119 balls and make no attempt to protect the tailenders.
It's all about attitude - if you think like a Colossus, you are likely to bestride your opponents. If you think like a rabbit, you end up in the pot.
Complain about this postWell of the 5 or 6 tests I've seen at Adelaide Oval this must be by far the best. Big crowds fine weather and the match twisting and turning to what I call the best result!
Thanks for coming England, it is good to have competition at last, see you next time.
Complain about this postI cannot really believe it is true.
Is THIS shambles really the team that conquered the Aussies at the Oval in September last year? Is this the same team that was joined in singing Jerusalem by an uplifted nation next to Nelsons Column?
Utterly dreadful. I cant think of any words to fully describe how badly we played, how badly we miss Troy Cooley, how wrong the selectors were with their choice of squad, how Fletcher can still try and justify the picking of Ashley "Bats and Fields" Giles and how lifeless and spineless England were today.
Didn't Fletcher call Panesar "the nest finger spinner in the world" after he destroyed Pakistan in the summer?
You are an IDIOT Fletcher - a poor mans Bob Woolmer!
P.s Fred should never have been given the captaincy as he has too much to try and think about. Nip it in the bud - make Straussy captain while we can still save the series.
Also, well played Hoggy - LEGEND!
Complain about this postBring them home home NOW!
Complain about this postWoah woah woah there!
I'm no Fletcher apologist but what good does all this biting and blaming do? Reading it just adds to the depressing feelings we've all got.
I agree that Anderson has looked ineffective. However it's equally likely that Mahmood could have been picked and sprayed it around for hundreds of runs and not many wickets too. We saw this happen in the summer. Anderson apparently offers more control and that's why he's been picked.
This "batting to 8" thing is extremely important. The Aussies put on 100 with their No 8 - Warne - and those runs proved pivotal. Just becuase Giles doesn't look like scoring many doesn't mean that we should forget all about it and just go for the better bowler. If, instead of Warne coming in at 8 the Aussies had Hoggard, Harmison and Anderson - all No 10/11s - they'd struggle.
Fletcher managed to inspire the boys for 4 days, and they really took it to the Aussies. The attitude and body language was very good and we were margianlly on top. However, in the same way that it's not Kevin Shine's fault that SH bowled the first ball to 2nd slip in Brisbane, it's not Fletchers fault that the batters bottled it on Day 5 in this test.
Forget about Vaughan- he's not scored a run for months and would get taken apart on a technical level if not mentally.
Fo the record I'd like to see Monty and Mahmood in the team. In my opinion Jones should stay, as Read doesn't really appear to offer any more with the bat or gloves, but seems less of a positive character.
I don't see how laying into Fletcher and Fred helps. Fred's given his all and Fletcher has made HUGE improvement to England's cricket. He can't continue to make mistakes agreed, but remember these Aussies are not rubbish. They're good, good players.
Complain about this postIt was extremely disappointing performance by England, considering the most recent performance I was not expecting much but giving away the game like that was not expected but I am not surprised at all keeping the strength of the team. We can not compare England with Australia in any department (bowling, fielding and batting) on the paper and on the field, England doesn't have batsmen of Ponting and Hussy's caliber , doesn't have wicket keeper and complete batsman of Gilchrist caliber, and no bowler of Shane Warne 's caliber.
Complain about this postLast ashes was won with the help of two very good batsman Vaughan and trescothick, both are badly missed in the current series. I don't expect much from this England batting, if they deliver that is a bonus.
Probably everyone agrees the point that Giles shouldn't have been selected. I don't understand what type of positive cricket is this that you select somebody in such a crucial game on the basis that he can score 20 odd runs at no 7. If top order fail Giles is not going score a hundred and rescue the team, and if the top order is successful we don't need his batting, and we have seen his bowling.
We can go day and night discussing what went wrong but the bottom line is that Duncan Fletcher should move on, England need a fresh start.
It's clear there must be a popwerstruggle in the ECB, as Graveney picks Read and Panesar when he's in charge and Fletcher picks Jones and Gilo.
Complain about this postFletchers decision has cost England this test, not because of the dropped catch, but because panesar could have bowled over the wicket and actually attack the aussies and Fletcher should be sacked now. He's made crucial mistakes in this series and history has proven he's of no use for the One day series and the world cup.
Test cricket is about taking 20 wickets in 5 days so you select your best bowlers (and keeper).
Aggers wrote: "He urgently needs to establish why a group of successful cricketers, the first for 20 years to come here holding the Ashes, continues to be intimidated by the Australians."
Part of the answer could be the methods of the coach. Immediately after the game, he has absolved all the batsmen, and defended the queer selections as well.
Averages don't mean a thing unless a player has the mental make-up to face the Aussies.. the present coach is very soft on non-performers.
Complain about this postDuncan Fletcher has allowed his ego to get the better of his judgement once he lost the controlling influence of the selectors; certainly his after-match comments avoid any acceptance of responsibility. Today was a disaster waiting to happen that actually happened. The old adage not to change a winning team should have been applied for this tour - Straus was a good and developing captain of a team having to learn together, with country's best wicket-keeper and the country's most exciting bowler. Changes should only be made if the replacements are exceptional - Flintoff - truly exceptional player but ordinary captain, Giles - good but not exceptional and with no cricket for a year, similarly Jones improving but not exceptional. Unfortunately changes now mean acceptance by the manager that he was wrong and as we are seeing he is never wrong
Complain about this postExpect an unchanged side for Perth...
Theoretically we know that on a flat pitch England's top 6 can stick up a load of runs for the bowlers to aim at and bat out a draw if that fails. So the only question should be how aggressive can we make our five-man attack, with Mahmood and Monty coming in plus Broad or Tremlett to replace Harmless and maybe even give Freddie a rest.
But it won't happen. Fletcher knows that he'll be crucified if Monty or Mahmood pick up a shedload His only hope is for the Brisbane-Adelaide crew finally come through and vindicate his selection strategy (and in the process shift the blame for the earlier defeats back to themselves).
I really, really wish I was wrong about this..
Complain about this postIt was a shocking collapse by England, brought about by negative cricket and a lack of self belief. Instead of ever believing they could win the game, England attempted to go into a shell first thing this morning. As soon as the Aussies realized England were attempting to see out time, they moved in for the kill and were able to attack from both ends. England fell under preassure once again, but they have no one to blame but themselves. If they cannot bring a positive approach to their game, and if they do not have self belief in their abilities, then they will never challenge the best team in the world. England should learn something from the Australian approach, the Aussies always play to win and never believe they are going to lose a match until they actually lose it, and even then, you can be rest assured they will never crumble like England often does, and did today as well. Even when they came out to bowl, the only England player who even looked like he wanted to compete was the Captain himself, Andrew Flintoff. Freddie bowled his heart out, and he deserves a team that can fight with him, but unfortunately all he got was a group of guys who never believed they could win in the first place.
Complain about this postI have seen worse collapses and bigger surrenders over the past 20 years or so of watching the English cricket team, but none have been quite as painful to behold as this one - and none can have inflicted such pyschological damage. Fletcher's post-match comments were quite extraordinary - "batsmen weren't to blame"; "team selection was correct". By any measurement, he must surely realise that he and the other selectors messed up in spectacular fashion.
Complain about this postHowever, the bigger problem is that our bowling attack is so insipid that if the batsmen perform as dismally as they did today, we have absolutely no chance.
As an Australian, can I say YEAH!
But seriously, I thought Australia were finished regardless... perhaps I was watching a delayed telecast.
Complain about this postThis is the end of the road for Fletcher. We have not just lost the Ashes, we have been comprehensively humiliated.
Complain about this postBasically Giles cant bowl his injury has finished him off!!
Complain about this postOnce again instead of playing fit players we have played unfit or not match fit players and suffered the consequences! Fletcher needs to take a long look at himself and stop being stubborn and drop Giles. He did nothing with the bat or ball and he dropped the crucial catch which could have won us the game!!!! As a Warwickshire fan it pains me to say this I just think Giles has lost something.
Jones is not scoring runs so on that basis we should get the best wicketkeeper in and that is Read who can score runs did it against Pakistan last summer!!!
Fletcher is the equivalent of Sven Goran Eriksson playing the players on previous reputations!!!
Totally spineless and negative performance by the Poms today, and also, despite my heritage, very disappointing. As a cricket tragic I like to see Australia pushed to the wall and was in fact pleased when they lost the Ashes last year. Whilst I never had a doubt that we would win them back in this series, after Brisbane was hoping that the series will still be alive come the 4th and 5th tests - when I will be back in Oz - but save little hope of this after today. The series is dead.
Complain about this postWhat on earth was Fletcher playing at sticking with Giles. If you want to beat the Australians then the only way is to attack them, and Giles bowling over the wicket to right-handers was a complete waste of time. He didn't return great figures, and failed miserably with the bat in the second innings. The selection of Geraint Jones must come into question also - He is averaging just under 15 with the bat so far, and since he is ahead of Read because of his batting, he will come under heavy pressure to get a score.
Complain about this postIt looks like a huge mountain for England to climb now, and we can only hope that Flintoff can pull something special out of the bag for Perth.
As much as I loved it at the time,I'm not sure the excessive sledging of Shane Warne by Jones,Collingwood and Pietersen was a great idea-he was always going to have the opportunity to have the last laugh!
I really blame Pietersen as much as anyone else for the defeat after his 2nd innings dismissal-having got underneath the Aussies skin so effectively by leaving the sweep shot alone,why go and attempt it so early?
Complain about this postFor someone who has the unique ability to make the Australians look ordinary and clueless,it was the turning point.
Stu - I hardly think Graveney is to blame here. He chose a good squad, with the likes of Read and Panesar - both of whom did well this year when given a chance in the Test side. Fletcher is the one who seems obsessed with the likes of Jones and Giles. Honestly, it has become more of a members club than a cricket team.
Complain about this postFrom what i've read this morning there seems to be a trend of asking questions about our bowlers and their selection for this test match (Harmison, Giles, Anderson)
For me this is rather irrelevant and detracts from the real issue. We came into this final day needing only to bat solidly and smartly on a pretty good 'day-5' pitch and proceeded to completely fall to pieces mentally. This (however good Shane Warne bowled) should never have happened.
All of our batsmen are technically gifted, compliment each other well, and have proved in the past that they can post big totals against tough opposition.
The problem then is a psychological one. I think at the start of 'day-5' the players have looked at each other in the dressing room and secretly not had confidence in their teammates. This had led them to develop acute 'fear of failure' which has affected their decision making. The Absence of seasoned winners like Vaughan and Trescothick is a key factor as they are experienced ashes performers who the squad can rely on mentally to give them confidence and belief.
The remedy for this breakdown is for the whole team to face their fears and the stinging criticism that goes with it. No dodging interviews, no hiding places. Leaders like Flintoff need to use the negativity to get this team angry and then focus it on that 3rd test (personally I would pin up newspaper cuttings of Shane Warnes smarmy comments all over the training ground, but whatever works). We need a mentally toughened team.
This moment is the real test for leadership within the squad and funnily enough, sometimes this kind of embarrassing loss can be used to spark off a special reaction.
Complain about this postI watched the entire morning session and then I was forced to retire to bed. I could not believe what I was watching. I've greeted the news with the depression it deserves.
Poor shot selection, no ability to get singles, error after error.
However, I believe that this England side have had cracks in it for a long time when it comes to pressure.
Last Ashes.....losing Lords....collapse second innings
2nd test...nearly throwing it away when we only needed to get 2 wickets and a very shakey second innings until freddy came to party.
3rd test doesn't support my theory at all..but hey.
4th... nearly being beaten when we were chasing a very small total for victory.
5th test again we nearly fell to pressure of second innings, pieterson dropped crucially.
This series could have easily gone the other way.
There were similar stories in Pakistan with second innings errors.
The England selectors have re picked the winning Ashes team from 2005. This has proven to have been a particularly negative and costly error.
How do you lose a game with a first innings score of 550? Ask Fletcher Giles Flintoff Harmison and Jones. Poor
England cricket our last bastion of hope and glory can sink into the void of haplessness along with our football and rugby team.
England cricket team sadly RIP
Complain about this postSaddens me to say that i can only see it ending up as 5-0 to Australia.
Surely a time for a change in Management ! Fresh ideas are needed if this team is to progress to its full potential !
Complain about this postI think everyone is missnig the real point here that Australia were just to good, there is no need blaming all these players for not performing. last year when england won the ashes they were all your national heros. Thats one thing about the english supporters they will kick a team/player when there down but full of praise when they win. When we lost the ashes last year the Australian media/supporters didn't rubbish the team, we were gracious in defeat and accepted that the english were the better team.
Complain about this postIf nothing else, this result should hasten the end of Ashley Giles', Geraint Jones' and James Anderson's test careers. Or at least it would do if someone as inflexible and cautious as Duncan Fletcher wasn't the coach. We simply don't have the Aussies' mental attitude when it comes to getting a result. Our players are more concerned with keeping their place in the team. It's amazing how often a player will score a century when his place is under threat.
Complain about this postSo depressing. But not a complete disaster: there are signs of life here. The batting is in robust shape as the first innings showed and Hoggard and Flintoff are an excellent bowling pair. What is needed are three things: first, for England to be thinking cricketers which they were not during that first hour of today. Second, and more importantly, to play their best players. This means that Fletcher needs to select the best players at his disposal so Read, Mahmood and Panesar come in for Jones, Anderson and Giles and it doesn't hurt the team to do this. After all Mahmood is an ample replacement for Giles at no. 8 and Panesar is, as someone said recently, 'the best finger spinner in the world.' Third, and perhaps most importantly, Harmison has to bowl better under pressure. Sure he bowled better in this match but with a total of 551 behind him he was under no real pressure. In the Australian second innings when the heat was on he bowled poorly in his four overs. Someone needs to get inside that man's head and tell him to extract his digit quickly otherwise we should send him back and find a spearhead with a heart. maybe he should have a quite word with Matthew Hoggard....
Complain about this postI cannot believe my eyes when I woke up this morning to check on the scores. Austrilia 10 runs to win!! how why!!!!!
Fletcher don't be like erickson who prefer to play injured unfit man for fit, best spinner monty!
crazy it might be we have to start thinking like winners and not losers!!
Come on barmy army!!!!
Complain about this postBrilliant England. How did you manageto snatch DEFEAT from the jaws of a good DRAW? Go HOME now so you do not embarass us anymore.
Complain about this postI'm an Aussie who lived in the UK for 10 years until recently, so I am fully aware of the flak that UK, English in particular, sporting teams cop from the papers over there. Serious questions must be asked about DF after this.
Why does DF want to bat to no. 8 if you can't take wickets? If you took wickets, you wouldn't need to bat to 8. The same woth the keeper. You wouldn't need him to score runs if you were taking 20 wickets a match & your batsmen doing the job. First innings in Adelaide, Bell, Collingwood & Pietersen were fantastic. But you still have to take wickets. Bring in Monty for the King of Spain (certainly no spin) & someone, anyone for Anderson. Give Harmy another go in Perth but rethink it after that.
The Ashes are all but gone this time for England but don't give up hope. G McG IS past his best despite what any other Australian will tell you. Lee looks like he is struggling. The balls he took the wickets with today were not good, Jones in particular was a poor, poor shot. Warne... I thought he past it after the 1st innings but may have changed my mind after today. Martyn should go. Hayden & Langer won't be around for too much longer as well.
Youth is probably on Englands side. 2009 & it could well be Englands time again.
To all those supporters in England coming out for the last two tests... Please come! You will be welcome despite the negative comments you read in the papers & online... Not all of it is true. Good buying power with you GBP's out here as well! Please spend them here & do the Aus economy a favour!
Complain about this postI was rendered well nigh speechless for a couple of hours by today's events. I've just about recovered a semblance of normality.
Complain about this postWe all knew that the selection policy was badly flawed, effectively sending out a nine man team against Oz, but it has been shown to be not simply flawed but a catastrophe.
English cricket is now holed below the water line, and no amount of baling and bawling by Fletcher, Flintoff and Graveny can hide that fact.
The selection of Anderson, Giles and Jones was always difficult to justify, many of us feared the worst, and now cannot be pardoned. It is simply not a feasible strategy to take on the Ausises with a set of 2nd rate all rounders whilst leaving your best specialists to soak up the sun.
Shifting the deckchairs around will no longer do.
Fletcher and Graveney MUST go if they have a scrap of dignity left, and Flintoff must have the burden of captaincy taken from his shoulders.
I went to bed last night confident of England going into the next test 1-0 down, having drawn the second test and proving to the Aussies that we are serious contenders to retain the ashes.
I woke this morning to discover another shambolic, lacklustre. display from our batsmen and Australia certain for a victory that was so unlikey just 24 hours before.
The Aussies can now smell victory and need just one more win out of 3 tests to reclaim the treasured Ashes.
I wonder what odds i can get for an Aussie whitewash????!
Complain about this postWhy are the English struggling?
1. Andrew Strauss succesful captain not appointed and obviously sulking.
2. Fred Flintoff forced to captain when needed all effort to recover from injury withoutpressure of captaincy.
3. Coach loves Giles. Why?
4. Should have sent Steve Harmison instead of Stu his untalented brother.
5. Batted too slowly in first innings. Geoff Boycott could occupy the crease, but tests are now set up for results because time can be made up.
6. Marcus Trescothick - why was he selected?
7. Michael Vaughn photographed with his pants down, makes a duck and then opines that he is on track for selection in the English team for Melbourne.
The English tour is and will continue to be a shambolic circus.
Complain about this postAfter seeing the highlights, there were three bad decisions. However, the blame should lie with Cook, Petersen, Flintoff and Jones who were all out playing dreadful shots, and also to Bell. If our Club second team played those shots, we would give them a good rollocking. Fletcher seems incapable of that, or selecting the correct side. Bring in Panesar and Read for a start.
Complain about this postIt was a disppointing experience to watch English batsmen. Especially, in the end when C'wood just thought that defending against Warne will save the game. When Giles was out, at that moment only. C'wood should have stepped up the run rate and should have gathered few runs. It was totally negative batting.
Complain about this postI'm amazed that the Giles-Panesar debate is being offered up every time as the reason for this defeat. I personally believe Panesar should be playing but this defeat was mainly down to the failure of the top 6 batsmen in the 2nd innings. This is inexcusable! A draw in this test would have given england a great confidence boost after the poor display in brisbane. Instead the series is effectively over.
Collingwood and Pieterson are the only two that have delivered with the bat in the two tests to date (with some back-up from Bell) but the top 6 did not stand up to be counted when required. Although Giles & Jones have been poor, so have Strauss, Cook, Harmy, Flintoff and Anderson. You can't win a test match, never mind a series with four players in good form.
Complain about this postNow it's time to put out the strongest XI and change the strategy - nothing to lose now
Let's attack the Aussies with Monty and the quick boys working in short, sharp bursts and have a tenacious niggly character behind the stumps.
New "old" boys Jones and Giles have achieved little - no 50's from the keeper - look back to Pakistan in the summer !!! and few wickets from the spinner.
READ and MONTY have to play !!!!
Complain about this postI have never understood how Giles was ever given the chance to play test match cricket. He's got a decent arm in the outfield but that's about it. Pietersen, never mind Monty, is a better spinner than he is and always will be.
Complain about this postPathetic. Thats the only way to describe it. There's no way England should have lost that test. They should have been looking to sneak the win rather than throwing away a game which for 4 days they were the better side. We really missed Simon Jones. Giles is not a good enough spinner. Even if he is bowling better then Panesar, he is still not good enough at this level. I can only see things getting worse.
Complain about this postFlintoff is still talking bout being happy with the team selection! he's a great bowler, but not a great captain. Strauss really impressed me in the summer, he's Vaughan-like, and I always belived Flintoff was the wrong decision.
Panesar MUST play in Perth. If they don't want to drop Giles, drop Anderson. He's did nothing at Adelaide and he's supposed to be similar to Hoggard. Keep with Jones, he's done nothing wrong behind the stumps and his batting technique is better than Read's.
Complain about this postI fail to understand why jones and Giles were playing when we ahve ried and monty are there.If giles was in the team for batting then why dont you pic another batsman.But if top six batsman can not perform then een you have 11 batsman even than you can not win
Complain about this postFletcher has to go! if you think runs at 8 wins you games instead of wickets you have no idea what your doing. Mahmood would be as useful as giles there and is better than anderson, this also would allow monty to play
Complain about this postDuncan Fletcher has selected an English team not to win a test, but not to lose a test. In doing this he picked exactly the team to lose. England showed some fight after the first innings in Brisbane. But it all came back to the 'no lose' mind set today. 70 overs to score 129? On that pitch?!!! That was just a terrible display. Where was the aggression of 2005? You have to stand toe to toe with the Aussies. They blinked last time. England can't even look them in the face this time.
Complain about this postOn a pitch which was going to help Warney on day 5, why didnt England post a bigger 1st innings score, surely 600 or 650 would have put the game totally out of Australia's reach.
With Simon Jones out, England are struggling to hunt in packs like they did last time round, Plunkett would have been my choice to fill his void, who has proven on the sub continent that he can take wickets on flat tracks. Jimmy Anderson was the wrong option, he hasnt been taking wickets in Test Cricket and when the going got tough, Jimmy went for 6 an over.
Warne & Co like to over appeal and wind the opposition up, and this time round we dont appear to have 11 players who are as tough mentally as the 11 Aussies out there.
Personally I think the team need several leaders, Freddy was always going to be a leader whether with or without the captaincy, and with his injury record, I think Strauss would have been a better, more consistant choice.
As for Monty, I think Fletch made the correct decision in this test, hopefully the pitches will get better and Monty will get his chance, playing him for the Sydney test sadly might prove too late for England.
I get the feeling it will now be all or nothing.
Complain about this postWell summary of test:
1. Aussies always had positive attitude they'll win the test eventhough whole world was expecting draw.
2. England with its negative appraoch for draw or trying save something.
3.Freddie good boy but he lost tactical decision of not playing panesar. Warne should why his leadership is in question.
4.Now it is difficult and england cant win three tests under pressure(although aussie wont allow any match to be drawn)
5.Its too late eventhough panesar plays, he has to wait till next ashes.
6. Anderson was rubbish and remaining matches are only exhibition.
7. Flintoff should have defensive fielding first and then attacking.
8. I was suprised him declaring at 551, should sscored heavily as fast as possible and got 680+.But they didnt had any good spinner for last day though. giles is no warne.
Morale of the story. Always think positive and play your best players.
Complain about this postAmazing! We got what we deserved through Fletcher's negative selection of Giles. Freddy was absolutely gutted, you could see that in the final overs. He has been fantastic, but others haven't stepped up to the plate. The Aussie's look like they have one hand on the 'urn' already. We need to act positively, Panesar, Mahmood and Reid need to come in for Giles, Anderson and Jones. Australia attacked and won, but the way Gilcrist celebrated you would think they had already won the ashes back. Three tests to go, we can fight back, but please Dunc' drop Giles and bring Monty in! We need 20 wickets! We need to take the fight to them, it's not over yet, come on England!!!
Complain about this postFletcher is the problem. Get someone who can select a side. We need to be at the Aussies not defending against them! Where is our offence? Our players are good - selection is the problem.
Out with Fletcher!
Complain about this postI agree with everything apart from the comment about Pietersen. He was trying to be positive at a time when we needed it. This was the worst bowling perfomance i have ever seen in my sixteen years of existence. Hopefully, we'll learn from this and Monty Panesar will have some input in the next test instead of the boring Anderson
Complain about this postI believe a certain Homer J Simpson summed it up best.
DOH!
Complain about this postWhat a win - it seemed like the English sides of the 1990's..........
As an Aussie, I couldn't believe a team that had been so agressive last year could return to the negative cricket of past Ashes clashes!!
Bring on Perth.
Complain about this postWhatever the reasons for this failure (cue intense finger pointing), as the team are now horribly scarred by their recent experiences can I offer my family's services to the England team.
I honestly believe that both of my kids are better attacking spin bowlers than Giles (both are leggies). The 12 year old is particularly good - could he be fast tracked into the squad? I wouldn't mind a go myself (another leggie).
Let's face it, The Ashes are lost anyway so let's open up the squad to anyone who fancies it.
Complain about this postThe indecision that plagued the English team began when the selectors lacked the courage to include Monty Panesar.
The players picked up on the lack of initiative before they even set foot on the Adelaide Oval.
The aggression that the English showed in the 2005
series needs to be re-asserted in Perth for them to play to their true potential.
Let's hope they can keep this series live.
Complain about this posti have enjoyed reading all your cmments immensly. I smile now as i go to bed here in Sydney. You poms are a funny bunch, able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory with remarable consistancy...that was embarrisng tdy...i was actually starting to support england for the good of the contest. Oh well 5 nil it is, back were you belong.
Complain about this postIt was clear long ago that Fletcher is an average coach. England won the Ashes in 2005 despite Fletcher and not because of him (and because the English boys played out of their socks).
Who advised Flintoff to declare at 551, when there were so many wickets still there. Why is Panesar not playing? We should be playing our best 6 batsmen, our best 4 bowlers and our best wicket keeper. And if one of them is a good allrounder, that is a bonus. Then if we lose, we have no excuses. Sack the coach, I say, sack the coach!
Complain about this postIf Fletcher wants to bat to 8 then he needs to pick an extra batsman and have four bowlers one of whom is NOT Gilo!
Complain about this postThe series is ruined and over as a contest. What a wate for all the fans in Melbourne and Sydney
Got up just after 6.00am and went to see the match tail off as a draw. Switched on the TV to see the Aussies were 46-2 and thought what a great (and bold) idea to declare and make a statement of intent to the Aussies. Show them that we would challenge them to the end, even though it was unlikely that the would have a go at the target or us bowl them out. Got my coffee and started watching, then the penny dropped.
Complain about this postSo the Chinese proverb goes, if you want to know if a fish is bad, look at the head. In this case, both the head and tail are bad. Blinkered selection, poor captaincy and negative tactics have produced a cricketing disaster. Fletcher has nothing left to offer England after this series and neither, frankly, do his proteges Giles and Jones.
Complain about this postWhat a shambles, the brilliant monty must start in Perth!
Does anyone else feel that this match shows how important Troy Cooley was to the England bowling, especially with Brett Lee getting as much reverse swing as he did!
Complain about this postWhen will you POMS learn not to underestimate the greatest cricket team in history? Did you seriously come to Australia thinking you had even the most remote chance of defending the Ashes? In the history of test cricket, no side has ever lost after making so many runs and declaring in the first innings of a match. The only contest you'll win this summer is the singing in the stands. Another Aussie rout - I love it!
Complain about this postSurely this will be DF's last test series in charge of England. He has shown both poor team selection in Giles not Monty and leaving Anderson in, I am a fan of Jimmy, but he hasn't played all year. Also, although a fan of Jones, and not that of Read really, but then why not pick a fresh new keeper, there a couple of good ones about, can't be any worse. Plus, why did he not notice how poor Harmisons form was, but he appeared to have done about it until last week, now he has no way of getting to his pomp.
This stubborness, incompetence and blatant favouritism have ruined our chances of defending the Ashes. Obvioulsy he wasn't on the field playing, but HE, not Freddie, nor the selectors picked the team. Therefore it is his head that must fall.
If there aren't team changes for Perth, the fans in Aus may as well head for the beach. Get rid of DF and bring MV into the set-up, not the team he is not ready, but he has the mind set to guide the players better then DF and Freddie!
I listened all night to TMS and listening to Agnew describe the boys leave the field was heart breaking!!
James
Complain about this postAshley Giles' Test statistics tell the whole story. A good and honest man I have no doubt, but surely the poorest ever player to achieve 50 caps. Geraint Jones is barely a County class batsman, and Jimmy Anderson not even close to Test Class as a bowler. And as for Steven Harmison, I am sorry to say that he is a sheep in sheep's clothing.
Complain about this postMr Agnew..I doff the cap to you and fingers up to your detractors (I bask in the glory of my own prognosis tambien). For those who are back from the pub and still reeling, read this again and start thinking about the game rather than the colour of your shirt....BB
At 12:01 AM on 05 Dec 2006, The Bellingen Bushman wrote:
Of course England can win. In fact they can win every game they play. However the main determining factor is the quality of the opposition. Work with the pitch as presented and apply tactics and attitude. Aussie Chick got it right. This was the chance to press with a win in mind. Fact is England wouldn't or couldn't score quick runs to allow them the time - no even number of overs in this one.
Adaptability is the key and the declaration is a great weapon when in the right hands. JA is right. Only A/a can win this one. A gutsy decision to pile on the runs and declare at lunch is required. This will not happen. England will engineer the draw and go on to the next one hoping for better. Australia are thinking about a win this morning and are thinking about winning the next three. That is the difference.
And selection issues JA? Correct. With young talented blokes and established Test performers lining up all over the country to get into this team, Boony and Co do have issues. The average Aussie fan might have an opinion about Jaques or MacGill but we collectively dont bang on incessantly about individuals weaknesses or conspiracy theories (including racism for Pete's sake!) about selection policy. Give us a break and your team a break. Logical positivism Bruce!!
Complain about this postComplain about this post
Bring em home before they are humiliated
Complain about this postThis was as abject a performance as I have seen from England in recent years, and possibly the most damaging. The attitude bewildered me; we seemed content to block, rather than pushing for singles to rotate strike and 'buy' time.
The tactics were abysmal. Bell, Pietersen, Flintoff and Jones were all culpable for their dismissals. Collingwood batted poorly with the tail, taking the single off the first ball, not looking for one at the end of the over, and seemed happy to let Harmison and Anderson take the strike.
Selection and strategy come from the top, and those have been awry all along. Anderson is a shadow of the player he was, and the selection of Giles 'to bat at 8' is negative. It is time for risk; for Mahmood and Panesar to play. How confidence can be rebuilt is a different issue.
Complain about this postAn analysis of defeat:
1. Bad team selection from day 1.
2. Harmison was useless.
3. Anderson's selection was a mystery.
4. Monty Pansar's non-selection was an even bigger mystery.
5. Ashley Giles lost the test with misssed Ponting catch.
6. Ashley Giles's bowling in the second Australian innings was woeful.
7. England's 2nd innings batting smelled of defeat, and was proven with 70 runs off 54 overs.
8. Kevin Pietersen's dismissal was atrocious and irresponsible.
Need I say more?
Complain about this postEnglands problem lies with the bowling. Can someone explain why 4 of the 5 bowlers picked ( giles, anderson, freddie & harminson) have either been
a - injured for over a year and only played a 1st class cricket on this,
b - missed all of the county season
c - played part of the county season
d - not mentally right and obviously struggling
This is the biggest series for a long time and to take such a gamble of your bowling department is just stupid. Surely, saji who it has been said and i do agree does spray the ball around would of been a better bet (he has got the miles in the legs and something to fall back on if things go wrong)
As for the batting, i havent seen the dismissals but it sounds to me as if some of our players have got themselves out i.e played a poor shot ..KP!!! rather than been undone by a decent delivery.
such a shame that this series does not look like being close. You are never gone win cricket matches if you only turn up for 4 days out of 5
Complain about this postAnd the reason for not playing Monty is ..............?
Complain about this postI can't believe Aggers hasn't gone after Fletcher and Flintoff for not picking Panesar. Fair enough the batsmen need slating for the 2nd innings collapse but Giles did little except gift Ponting a life and Anderson is a poor man's Matthew Hoggard. Drop Anderson for Panesar and play 2 spinners. We now have to win 2 Tests and the only way to do that is to take 20 wickets. The current line up couldn't do that if we played for a fortnight.
Harmison might come good but the contributions of Giles and Anderson are both not good enough but also about all they've got. Is Anderson only in the team because he's a clubmate of Flintoff's at Lancashire?
I thought Sir Geoff Boycott was wrong when he called for Fletcher to go but the coach's defensive team selection has shown that Sir Geoff is right as usual.
Complain about this postTwo questions with hindsight I know but which need to be answered.
Why declare with only 6 wickets down when it would surely be more sensible to bat the oppositon out the game completely. Steve Waugh would have gone on well into the third day if possible. Chasing 650+ and 450+ to avoid the follow on is much more psychologically testing than knowing that 350+ runs on a benign track will save the follow on.
Why oh why can't Fletcher pick Panesaar ? To win the game we needed to take 20 wickets. The bowling attack that performed so ineptly in the first test were never going to do that in a month of sundays. The Aussies knew the wicket was going to turn so why did'nt we.
And why can't Giles catch????????
Complain about this postAwful, simply awful! Poor shot selection again from England's batsmen! We may as well come home now!
Complain about this postLooking at Flintoff's face in those last few overs you could see that he had nowhere to turn. You could see he needed to be able to throw the ball to someone and say "here, you have a go at them", but there was no-one to turn to. What Giles is doing in the side beggers belief, but then again who else could Freddie use?
I honestly think if Flintoff could have bowled himself at both ends he would have done - as it seems like he is the only one he can rely on with the ball when the pressure is really on.
Complain about this postits so obvious to all but the fools that are flintoff and fletcher. England have no chance bowling teams out with the bowlers they keep picking. Giles was poor even when he was fit. England have not only a man in form in Monty but also a match winner. Giles has never been either. 'We want to bat down to number 8' is the most pathetic reasoning ever. Giles isn't a good bat. His average is 27 and even when he was in form was hardly a reliable player at 8. However the point is not whether he can bat - its whethe he can bowl - and he can't. Ridiculous favouritism from flintoff and fletcher has robbed us of any chance we had in this ashes series
Complain about this postWhat can i say? DF wants Giles at 8 so he can contribute with the bat, and back up the top order, but if he was a wicket taker, like MP, those runs wouldnt be so vital to the team... this does make sense!
As for the wicket keeper situation, it makes no difference who is picked, as the ball doesn't get pass the edge enough for there to be a debate im afraid.
Englands tactics this morning were typical, so fearful of defeat they forgot to save or try and win the match.
Last year the england team evolved each game, played harder, faster cricket, and got their rewards. This year Dr. Who must have taken them back in time or erased their memories!!
I hope MP doesnt play in a way, im a fan of his, like a million others, but if he does, the level of pressure on him will be too high. If he failed to get 10 wickets for 3 runs, DF would resort back to Gilo and say, i told you so!
DFs last time in charge? i think it should be. he should have gracefully stepped down after the ashes last year, left on a high.
Could be another 20 odd years till England get that tiny urn back.
Ammo,
Complain about this postBirmingham
My nightmares normally end when I awaken. This morning the alarm signalled the start of a very long and scary reality.
I'm devastated.
Complain about this postNo team in the world can beat the Aussies, thats why we are the best team on the planet at tests and ond day's. it's like comparing a first world country to a thrid world country, we're are so far ahead with skill. lol!
Complain about this postAussie Aussie Aussie
You guys can fill in the rest.
I must say you have dissapointed us in the 2 test matches so far. Thank you for picking Giles as a spinner I dont think my 5 year old would be troubled by him, make sure you keep panasar in the dressing room so we can win 5-0.
Barmy Selectors not Barmy Army should be your catch cry.
Oi Oi Oi
Complain about this postAs a member of HM Forces I can only observe that it is a good job that the British Army does not capitulate so cravenly in the face of determined and hostile opposition when sent abroad to represent the nation.
Complain about this postBefore returning to the UK the entire team should spends a lengthy stay in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, where they can learn from professionals how to achieve success in difficult circumstances.
Is anybody surprised that Flintoff is clueless as a Captain?............decent player but all too much for the lager swilling Preston boy!
Complain about this posti think it is brilliant. Australia demonstrated that the 2005 series loss was a case of them playing badly, whilst England played well. Today demonstrated that if Australia play well it doesnt matter how well England play, they just aren't good enough!!
Complain about this postI can only fully agree with you, Aggers; this was not defeat, it was lame capitulation.
David Gower, on Sky, asked why Collingwood, Pietersen and Hoggard had produced such masterful performances earlier in the match, only to suffer a trouncing.
The answer is simple; it needs ELEVEN good performances THROUGHOUT the match to beat the Aussies at home. They're a team, England are just a rabble at the moment and I'm fast running out of patience with Fletcher's platitudes.
Replace Harmison with Mahmood. His bowling can't be much worse at the moment, and he's a far superior batsman to Giles. Panesar's inclusion is a no-brainer for everyone except Fletcher and Flintoff. There seems no reason apart from personal favouritism to prefer Reid over Jones as keeper, and I furthermore have grave doubts over Anderson's stamina in the big games; he's been a great white hope for too long without ever really giving a defining performance. However, that might be one change too many as Plunkett is similarly unproven.
I'd also be seriously tempted to hand the captaincy back to Strauss; whilst I don't think he's tactically much better (and no-one ever will be whilst Fletcher keeps poking his oar in) he LOOKS like a team captain. For all that Freddie's a true hero he has the air of a working foreman rather than a manager, and this puts him at a serious disadvantage to Ponting.
Complain about this postShocking stuff(or not as we are creeping back into old style England). How the hell have we lost that match and most probably the Ashes?
That has to be the final test we ever see Ashley Giles or Geraint Jones play because they are simply not good enough.
In the next test we must bring in Read, Monty and Mahmood if anything just to look forward to the future as this series is already over before it's really begun!
Complain about this postThe best cricket team I have seen was the 80s West Indies. They had 5 batsmen, an all rounder, a wicket keeper and four bowlers.
Complain about this postIf Giles and Jones are picked in the next test I'll just watch the darts or indoor bowls instead! If Fletcher was in charge of Sri Lanka Muttiah wouldnt be selected because he cannot bat!!
I went to sleep last night, thinking the test was over as a draw, with England going to miss out on the chance of victory when ponting was dropped in the first innings. Many will say others would have scored the runs for the aussies but the physcological blow would have being huge as would have been the pressure at 75 for 4. Who dropped it, Giles. I woke up at 6 to see the Aussies batting, a little glimmer for England to get a draw. But giles was leaking runs like theres no tomorrow no pressure on the batsmen whatso ever. How anderson and Giles are in the side when they have palyed no cricket in the whole year ahead of mamood and panesar is beyond me. Fletcher has a serious problem now , his picks have not performed.
Complain about this postI feel today was more that a simple batting collapse it was outright surrender of meak minded, over paid individuals that tarnish the rich history of English cricket. When will we become a nation unforgiving of failure, instill some backbone & send home the useless players now.
Complain about this postI have been watching Test cricket since the days of Trueman, Sobers, Hall & Griffith. I cannot remember the name of Fred Trueman's sport psychologist. Can you remember who it was? Perhaps he was the same as Geoff Boycott's?
Complain about this postRegards, Tim Marshall.
love reading all your comments. full credit for what you did last year, it was a great achievement, but I have always maintained that it was done on the back of a fluke. now i am being proven correct.
strauss - failing
cook - failing
bell - pass (just)
collingwood - pass
pietersen - pass
flintoff - failing
jones - failing
giles - expelled
hoggard - failing
harmison - absent
anderson - failing
5-0 would be too good to be true, but after today anthing is possible.
Complain about this postHow can England hope to win a test with a bowling attack that obviously can't take 20 wickets unless it's a seamer's wicket? It's equally obvious that Australia have NOT prepared any fast, hard tracks for this series. Wonder why, eh?
After all the talk on here about the solid wisdom of keeping Giles over Panesar, you seem silent on the subject now Aggers. Giles' first over of today was woeful. It's also arguable that Panesar would have had a much greater chance of picking up a crucial extra wicket on day 3 or 4, which Giles never once looked like doing. That would have made a world of difference.
Other than that, I agree that the batting, particularly KP, Flintoff and Jones, was poor. But the mindset of playing to draw encourages that. No amount of psychologists can help that. Get out there, play your best players and best game. Play hard, and play to win.
But that will now be the only option.
Complain about this postThe fact that both the captain and manager are saying the batsmen are not to blame shows exactly what is wrong with English cricket. If Australia had been beaten in such a manner the recriminations would have been long and hard. Whilst Warne is a world class bowler the attittude that 'he was just too good for us' is unacceptable. It's also pointless saying Vaughan should be in the side, he has not palyed a seriois game of cricket for many months.
Complain about this postIt was a pathetic batting performance but it doesn't fail to cover the fact that our bowlers are short of confidence and couldn't take 20 Australian wickets if their lives depended on it. Hoggard and Flintoff apart the rest of them look awful and need to look at themselves. Panesar and Plunkett need to play not necessarily because their better but because they will provide something different which may trouble the Aussie's. Our batsmen were awful and Jones? Please, Give Read THE BEST KEEPER IN THE COUNTRY a go. Please!
Complain about this postWhat's more satisfying than watching today's victory from a yawn, is to read all your comments here cutting your wrists and then demanding more blood from your players. It sort of reminds of of watching Austin Powers when he lost his mojo. Who stole Englands? Anyway any true fighter will know that there are three more opportunites ahead and the true believers will be backing their team. Good luck lads
Complain about this postTwiggy
To all of the English people reading this :
There are time when you play great and there are some of the best players in the world in the team - Pietersen, Flintoff (as player not captain)... but to wine the ashes you are going to have to bowl Australia out twice in a match.
On current form its not going to happen.
I love to watch Australia win and love to give my English friends grief, but England are always only capable of a day or two's good cricket... it needs to be more than that.
Complain about this post"We came here underdone", "Players selected on reputation not ability", "Some of our players have not played for a long period of time", "The Captain is incompetent", "Smith should have been picked instead of Bloggs", "The Coach is playing his favourites", "Sack the coach", "The selectors should be sacked". Quotes from the current England supporters ? Currently yes, but also the quotes of English Rugby League supporters after being knocked out of the Tri Nations a few weeks ago. Same same the quotes of the England Football supporters after their removal from the last WC. Strewth, who would be a coach, captain or selector in the UK.
As a Pom resident in Oz for many years, I was here when the Aussies under Kim Highes and Allan Border were copping massive floggings and were viewed as the easy beats of world cricket, yet I watched as the Aussie fans stuck by them (Can't say the same for the journo's and the daily newspapers). The Aussies lost the Ashes in 2005 but I didn't witness the acid laced vitriol from their fans that the England team are copping from it's own 'Fans' and supporters. It must be extremely difficult to grow in confidence when your whole country is on your back slagging you off.
As for some of the immature comments about the 'arrogant Aussies' and the 'bullying tactics of the Aussies' are concerned on this site, get a life.
Complain about this postI am completely devestated by what unfolded before my very ears today in Adelaide.
Complain about this postI felt my stomach tighten with nerves when I switched on Radio 4 at 2am this morning, a feeling I know well from times gone by, but one I didnt expect to return on this morning.
As my England heroes of last year departed the crease one by one in quick succession, despair set in, just me and my old radio sitting in the dark.
Nothing to lift my spirits, you boys at TMS doing your best to be positive, but I could hear in your voices the resignation.
Resignation - Are we to be beaten by the Aussies for the next 20 years.
I dont care how Andrew and the boys feel, they were in a position to do something about it, us - me and thousnds of other devoted cricket lovers listening to our radios at unearthly hours could only listen in torment....
The saddest thing of all is that the Ausies are no longer a great team technically, the greatest test of all time I think not, avereage cricket at best.. brilliance is an ingrdient required for greatness, not even Warnie was brilliant... we were just awfull.
Yours, Grumpy young man !
Well enough is enough. Without seeming to jump on the bandwagon of discontent. I settled down last night and waited for England to either push on and bat the day out,then off to Perth with a morale victory.Instead what i watched was as an enept performance of the highest degree.
What should we do.? Well start at the top and change the captain,just like we did with Botham,when Brierley was brought in.We should draft say Adams in from Sussex who has leadership qualities and leave Flintoff to concentrate on his own form.
Then we can start by changing the bowling attack.
We won't win matches unless we can take 20 wickets in a match so out with the out of form Harmison and bring in Mahmood,someone with genuine pace.Then bring in Monty for Giles, a much better strike bowler and Giles is hardly in form with the bat.
Yours Disgruntingley
Complain about this postGary.
Well, it goes to show how "Dad's Army" can still do it. Perhaps England needs to remember Churchill's words to his alma mater "Never giver up. Never, never give up!" Then again, I don't think that Winston was that fond of Aussies but those words have a resonance when it comes to this Australain team. Just wait till we win the Football World Cup and then you'll see how the "colonials" have a thing or two to teach the Old Dart!
Complain about this postI've spent the entire morning wondering how a team who scored more than 550 in the first innings can somehow lose.
Complain about this postOK, poor shot selection, poor umpiring decisions and poor bowling are all contributory factors, but the fact remains that from being an upbeat, confident team 鈥 even after Ponting led a first innings revival 鈥 England wound up a woeful, demoralised shambles.
Even with such hopeless batting they should not have lost.
Why we had such negative field placings from the first ball beggars belief, although the bowling was such that it probably wouldn't have made any difference.
I actually feel sorry for Panesar.
If he is selected for the third Test, as expected because England now have to win twice, he will be under enormous pressure to succeed.
Mahmood has to play in Anderson's place and there might even be a case to play Vaughan if only for his ability to captain and get the best out of his players.
(Think Brearley back in the 80s. Not worth his place as a player, but worth his wait in gold as a clever captain and motivator).
As a sporting nation we are never prepared to move on, as soon as we win something or someone does well in couple of games they become untouchable! If Michael Clarke played for England he would be considered a regular....but for them he struggles to get in the team
We do the same at every sport....people still worship Tim Henman even though he is basically a bottler when it comes to world stage or when the going gets tough. The rugby teams (both league and union) continue to pick people who have done it the past, but can't do it any more.....the same seems to have moved onto the cricket team now!
Anderson was great when he first started his teat career....but he hasn't done anything for 2 or 3 years now, even in county cricket...so how does that merrit a place? What do the likes of Jon Lewis or Stuart Broad have to do? When did Jones last make a meaningful contribution with the bat apart from when we are on 400 plus?
What must Monty think....cast aside in favour of Giles and now if he is reinstated he is supposed to turn it around all on his own....his confidence must be in bits
Complain about this postIt is about time that Duncan Fletcher stopped picking players purely on the basis of a misguided loyalty, and picked them on their current form and performance levels. Harmison and Anderson are not playing well enough to justify their places, and although Giles has produced with the bat, his contribution is completely pointless when he is unable to take wickets (as a bowler is surely supposed to do). Its all well and good when he scores 20 or 30 runs, but when we allow a side like Australia to score 600 and 500 then the odd twenty-something becomes utterly irrelevant. Pick Panesar who might have at least given the Aussie batsmen more of a scare than The King of Spain!
Complain about this postMan!
You are pathetic
Blaming the umpire for our defeat; not at all worthy of a professional commentator. [Compare with the Aussies saying they would have got 700 in the first innings if not for Warne's dismissal from a similar doubtfuil decision.]
Why can not we stand up and say
- we lost the psychological advantage of the Ashes win through the negative in approach in team selection for the first Test. i.e. no faith in our batting line up; we are planning only for the situ of being 260 fo 6.
As a result we have the self fulfilling prophesy of 'will collapse at least once in every match'
Complain about this postAs with the best football teams, it is great managers (and for that read captains in cricket) who win games.
The importance of Michael Vaughan's leadership in regaining the Ashes was not fully appreciated, and Duncan Fletcher's influence over estimated.
Bring back Michael Vaughan as captain into the squad (even if not playing) and let's have Geoff Boycott as England manager - he speaks more sense than anyone else. Unfortunately his uncompromising comments don't find favour with the faceless men at the ECB (what does that remind you of Martin O'Neill?).
Complain about this postIs Duncan Fletcher racist?
To drop Monty was a mistake, to drop Monty AND Saj smacks of something else, i think.
Either that or he hasn't heard the sporting adage of the man in possesion of the jersey, or the ideal of picking form.
Monty and Saj Mahmood had really good summers, were on the up and up. Giles and Anderson have barely played cricket for a year, and what cricket they have played in their career has never warranted an automatic starting place in ANY team, let alone the test team. What has Anderson ever done?
The ashes were lost the moment the first XI was announced in Brisbane. My heart sunk, knew it was over. Read or Jones, again not much between them, but again, Read was the man in possesion, in form.
The above selections can only be down to three things - stupidity, racism, or a deliberate attempt to lose the ashes. Does Fletcher / Flintoff have a betfair account?
Complain about this postThe Panesar vs Giles debate is a sideshow for this test, as in any debate re the captaincy. It has been the batsmen that have let us down in this match.
Warne still only took 4 wickets in this second innings - the batsmenship at the other end was highly irresponsible. Message to Pieterson, Flintoff and Jones - England were NOT going to win the match today, so LEAVE THE BALL ALONE.
Hang around. Only 19 balls were left to bowl in this match, we could have easily seen it out.
We could have gone to Perth very chipper. As it is, Australia now only have to win 1 out of 3 games - they can afford to lose 2, we can't afford to lose any.
Very, very poor effort.
Complain about this postLACK OF GUTS!!!
I think the problem lies with a few in English cricket who are trying to save their faces than to retain the Ashes. There is one thing that England must learn today, they will acheive nothing against the Australians by thinking of a draw all the time.
Complain about this postCant blame the English batsmen, how many batting lineups in the world can survive a bowling feat like that. The problem is with this line up England will struggle to take 20 wickets, no they will find it impossible to take 20 wickets.
What must be blamed is not Ashley Giles, he does his best, but the fault is with team selection that isnt thinking of 20 wickets but is stubborn in the thought process of avoiding defeat.
Now they have no excuse, players like Panesar, Mahmood, Plunkett may get thrashed around by the Aussie team cos of their lack of Experience, but at least we went out fighting and what do we stand to loose now. Its negative signals that are aired when a team prefers a player who takes a wicket every 40 odd overs and on his day is capable of scoring 30 odd runs. Cant blame Giles, cos hes come back from injury and thats all hes capable of doing, the team must think of a more aggressive attack at least now or their batsmen will have nothing to fear.
I hope everyone doesnt blame the English team, they put up a fight with what they had, which wasnt much in the first place. Fingers crossed they will come back.
what is it about England teams? They have the talent at their disposal to challenge for big honours but they seem more afraid of losing than focused on winning, There are undoubtedly parallels between the cricket and football sides.
Complain about this postIn my view Engalnd players don't have the belief... worrying given all the good stuff that came out the summer of 2005.
The next test will be a test of character and just how good this team really is.
The key to this game was Ponting, catch him on 35 and you take away over a 100 off the Aussie total. In addition to this why the hell was Anderson preferred to Monty? We all knew this wicket was going to offer very little to the seamers, and its not as if Anderson has been bowling that well. In addition, what the hell is Jones in there for? Jones was dropped for not scoring runs...........where are you James Foster!
One of the most depressing things I have seen, I thought the days of England just rolling over had gone.
Complain about this postAGGERS' ARTICLE IS VERY APPOSITE. HE BLAMES THE BATSMEN, BUT THE CAPTAIN AND MANAGEMENT PRAISE THE BRILLIANCE OF THE OPPOSITION AND DON'T BLAME THEMSELVES. ALL ELEVEN OF THEM WERE EQUALLY TO BLAME. UNTIL TEAMS AND THEIR MANAGERS LEARN TO ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR OWN ABJECT FAILURES PUBLICLY THEY WILL LOSE THE RESPECT AND SUPPORT OF THEIR FANS.
Complain about this postwell im an aussie and i have to laugh at fletcher saying we want giles so we can bat down to 8 well if u pick good bowlers u wont need to bat to 8 u should bowl the team out cheap well one day eng mite win a game in aus its been many years since eng has won in aus good luck
Complain about this postJeez, The whinging Poms come out in force. Reading thru this trail of responses is almost as negative as the England batting attempt today. It's quite simple - Man for Man the Aussies are better than the Poms. You can go on about Giles and Jones, but their exclusion would have made little difference (so I guess I'm agreeing with the TMS boys).
The game was lost due to an inept 2nd innings batting display. England won the last Ashes thru a VERY mental attitude and self beleif. What has happened since?
Complain about this postThe key to this game was Ponting, catch him on 35 and you take away over a 100 off the Aussie total. In addition to this why the hell was Anderson preferred to Monty? We all knew this wicket was going to offer very little to the seamers, and its not as if Anderson has been bowling that well. In addition, what the hell is Jones in there for? Jones was dropped for not scoring runs...........where are you James Foster!
One of the most depressing things I have seen, I thought the days of England just rolling over had gone.
Complain about this postOh dear. To be fair to Australia, they were like a boa constrictor; it was awesome stuff.
Complain about this postHowever ....
Ashley Giles is no longer a Test match bowler. He was never great, but now his new action means he spins it even less and he doesn't put any body into it ... Fair play to Atherton for asking Fletcher about this after the match, but the tactic of needing Giles at No8 simply isn't working; the stats show that ... I've been reading Selvey every day and I can't believe he keeps defending the selection; he's got 3-276 or something now ... it's making us a laughing stock. it's criminal to keep overlooking a bowler (Panesar) who gave Inzy, Yousuf and Younis such problems last summer.
And although I agree Geraint Jones is technically/potentially a better batsman than Chris Read, where is this great character that we hear so much about? I've always thought Jones is a bit impassive, flakey; ok, so what if he can laugh when Warne sledges him? at least you get the impression Read would be battling. The shots Jones played were truly pathetic, irresponsible ... And Atherton let Fletcher off the hook here, not asking him about it. I guess next summer they might go back to Foster or skip a generation to Steven Davies, anyhow ...
Saj can bat at No8 and come in for Giles, and Panesar for the totally ineffectual Anderson, who has been a massive disappointment. How can Hoggard get eight wickets and yet a relatively similar bowler like Anderson do nothing? He looks like a boy out there; he doesn't have the strength of character.
Of course, the silver lining to all this is that Fletcher will be out of a job soon ... we need somebody more expansive now ... can take a fresh look at things. it's got too cosy; like he thinks there's only 11 cricketers he can trust in England.
My God. What a weak, pathetic performance with both bat and ball - we deserved to loose this game and I'm thoroughly disgusted with our players.
First, what was that with the bat!! Did our top order not watch any of the pre-Fletcher era when we went into survival mode with the bat when under pressure and invariably lost. (Atherton in Jo`berg in 1996 being the only exception, albiet one that is constantly trotted out).
What the hell were we doing? Another 30 runs from anywhere would have made the game safe!
Much was made of Trescothick's abscence from the team and the general consensus before the first test (but not from me) seemed to be that he would not be missed.
Well there's no way that Trescothick would have played like Strauss et al did today. A horrible, childish display from them - a disgraceful bow of the head to pressure.
When it comes to the bowling it is finaly clear to me now that Harmison is just not up to it, mentally or physically. Since that first ball in Brisbane I have lost all respect for him and that hangdog, wimpish expression he carried in the field summed him up for me.
This nonsense that he bowls at 90 miles per hour is exactly that, nonsense. Watch Brett Lee and Aktar - those guys bowl at 90+ - not once every few overs, but consistently. Freddies the same, although perhaps a notch or two behind in pace.
Right now I would take devon Malcom over Steve Harmison for the next test - in fact I would bite your hand off. Our guy is just not a trier - he's a fair weather bowler and a weak, winging individual. A poor role model who must disgust his own team mates.
I am fed up of hearing that the pitchs don't suit Harmison -they never do! Once a year he seems to have a good spell and then that's it - no more is expected of him.
Bowlers that end up playing 50 test plus generally learn to play on every kind of surface and justify their place that way. Harmison just hasn't done this. His record away from home is appaling.
Personally I think Harmison should be shot or hung for cowardice.
I feel sorry for Flintoff and Hoggard, particularly Flintoff. Only these two look capable of actually taking a wicket and both tried their hardest. No fault can be found there and we badly miss Simon Jones' energy, speed and agression to follow their spells. There is now just no back up for these two, made worse by the fact that our best attacking bowler over the last year has been left out of the side (Panesar).
So poor is the back up bowling in fact that I can't see Flintoff lasting the series without an injury caused by excessive bowling.
Further, the guy is clearly not a number 6 batsman (comparable to Michael Clarke anyone?) and to expect him to captain the side as well is just madness. With Flintoff we have half way killed the goose that layed the golden egg, and the sad thing is that so many saw this happening, although their cries went unheeded.
This now is the start of the unravelling of the Flethcer regime. He's made a number of mistakes so far that have cost England any chance in this series.
1) Strauss showed his leadership credentials against Pakistan and should have been made captain. To burden Flintoff with it instead was a costly folly.
2) Panesar should have started the series as one of four bowlers. The six batsmen/4 bowlers tactic worked against the number 3 ranked test side (Pakistan) in the last series and it should have been employed here. To have failed to play one of our best attacking bowlers in the most anticipated series of all time is a ghastly error.
3) Flintoff is not a number 6 batsman.
4) Irrespective of the Panesar issue, to have played Giles after a year out of cricket (yes not even the first class game on tour) smacked of cronyism and negativity. The same goes for Anderson - 6 months out of the game and he's straight back in the side in place of Mahmood who helped us win against Pakistan and surely would have done better that Anderson in both tests.
Hindsight is a dangerous tool, but anyone with a cricket brain made these points pre series.
Having said that you have to weigh up Flethcer's mistakes with some of the incredible educated guesses he has made over the years - consider the first class averages of Vaughn, Terescothick and Collingwood for a moment.
But for my money now this current team is wavering well off the mark. Team selection is wrong and the positive attitude is starting to slide away.
Complain about this postThe English have lost a lot of ground since last year, that is obvious. The Aussies have gained a bit of ground (Hussey and Stuart Clark are both good additions); they are a good team and they play like a team. They also have Shane Warne who can turn the ball square on a fifth-day track AND who can create pressure by his chirpiness, chat and skill. That pressure results in run-outs and foolish slogs at Lee's bowling, etc. etc.
Two danger signs for the rest of the series (beyond the obvious mountain of runs for most of the upper order) were the prospect of Gilchrist returning to his old form and the fact that Brett Lee has learnt reverse swing (I suppose from Troy Cooley).
It will be interesting to compare the approaches to selection for the next test. Will Australia be ruthless and leave out the under-performing Martyn? What will England do with their under-performers [I don't include Giles in this category, I see him as performing to his capabilities in both Tests.]?
Complain about this postThat was the most pathetic display of batting I have ever seen from an England side. They seemed to attach no importance to scoring runs and decided they were just going to block out the day - when has an England team EVER managed to do that? Did they not understand that runs were just as important since it effectively doubles the time needed by Australia to force a result in this game. It was truly naive and I wonder where the instruction to bat this way came from - whoever it was should not be in his job for very much longer.
Complain about this postIt's only sport. Besides, what goes around, comes around. Enjoy the highlights, ruminate on the lowlights, and simply enjoy the spectacle of one of the greatest sporting clashes between two great sporting nations. Or am I not taking the whole thing seriously enough?
Complain about this postWhat a shock it was to wake up to this result, a great first innings display after the shambles that was Brisbane should have given the batsmen the confidence to insure a draw.
But its not the batsmen that worry me and probably most england fans its that i cant see england taking 20 wickets to win a test!
Panesar has proven his class as a wicket taker and should have played both tests, Giles at No 8 Y?! He's not going to smash 100's to bail england out of problems and hes not played enough cricket year to take wickets against a world class batting line-up!
Finally how england miss Simon Jones! the unsung hero of the last ashes, his aggression and passion is so badly missed.
Complain about this postWell its unfortunate. I think this team has tooo many question marks to be successful. Even the attitude after scoring over 550 was to draw the game. It would have helped to be a bit more agressive. Not choosing Monty spoke volumes about the negative attitude.
Complain about this postWhen England batted well in the first innings, every one was giving pieces of advice as to how to win the 2nd Test. When Australia also posted a good first innings total, the pundits were already predicting a drawn match.That is what they were playing for and caused their downfall!
I can only put England's defeat to this: Warne bowled well in the second innings putting the batsmen on the backfoot most of the time. The Aussies in the seciond innings were not afraid to bat. Though they lost a few wickets cheaply, they achieved the result.
It seems to me England's strategy from the beginning of the 5th day as the pundits had predicted, was to draw the match. That is what caused their downfall not particularly team selection! They were just negative!!
Complain about this postWe have seen it with Football in the World Cup, we have seen it with Rugby on the Lions Tour, and now we see it in Cricket! Selecting a touring party with players carrying injuries, players coming back from injuries and not yet having put "miles on the clock", players who are close to being over an injury and it is assumed because of past glories will be instantly match fit and match winners on their return, and players who are out of form but it is "hoped" will find their form on tour, has regularly back fired. Probably 50% of the present party fall under one or more of the above and we are regularly hearing comment that Michael Vaughan will be drafted in although he remains largely unproven since his injury.
We still seem fairly good at Darts and Snooker!
Complain about this postI'm in Adelaide. All the England players are going to the Robbie Williams concert in Adelaide tonight. They should be made to sit in the hotel room - watch the replay on Foxtel and then sent packing to bed. Robbie Williams concert after that miserable unprofessional performance!! No way!!
Complain about this postWe need to stop talking negatively, if we continue to slate the team, how on earth will they pull them selves out of this hole to win the remaining tests, yes it was a huge disapointment, yes we should have won but there are more important things. It is essential that Flintoff and Fletcher say that no-one is to blame, can you imagine how low morale is in the camp at the moment, if the two leaders of the squad come out naming and shaming there will be mutiny.
Complain about this postEngland need a few days off away from cricket, go up to Uluru, or down to Kangaroo Island, somewhere to get away from it all so they can re-group as a team. We played excellent cricket for the first four days of this test do forget that, We can come back and we will! I for one am looking forward to celebrating a 3-2 win in Sydney!
315 I woke up this morning, now at work and very bleary eyed, at least the tears are stopping my eyes from drying out.
Complain about this postIt was just like the dark old days only this was worse, England were in no position to lose this match but they contrived to.
Flintoff looked clueless even when Australia needed 80 to win and he looked pretty depressed.
A lot more energy required, a lot less trepidation
I've always felt that if you want to understand an organisation, look to the head - the ethos and mood trickle down from there. So if you want to understand a classroom, look to the teacher. A monastery, look to the abbot.
If you want to understand a team, look to the coach.
I think Peter English at cricinfo made an excellent point when he said that Duncan Fletcher's mood seemed to have infected the team on the morning of the 5th day after the optimistic end of the 4th. He sat there, arms crossed, immobile - you can see that mood reflected in Ian Bell - until now a confident, intuitive batsman in this series - doubting his teammate's call for a tight single. Colly KNOWS what he's doing - from both the batting and fielding perspectives - Bell just needed to *trust* him and go. You HAVE to trust your partner and TAKE THE RISK. That's the only way a team works. This incident where one teammate didn't trust another's calculation of risk is symptomatic of what ails the team and I suspect it's very telling re: Fletcher's leadership.
Fletcher strikes me as the type of coach who is really good for one thing: building teams from nothing and instilling stability and security (e.g., central contracts)...brilliant for us in 1999. However, he doesn't seem to know what to do once he has built the team - he's like a parent with an adolescent, unable to let go and allow for growth, increased risk-taking and independence whilst granting unconditional support. He's done well by us, but he now has a bunch of talented cricketers who need to be allowed to fly, not be kept on jesses. They need someone who would have been smiling this morning and said, "Go for it, boys, you can play your game. Watch Shane on this pitch - it ain't over, but get out there, you can do this." They needed encouragement and pride in what they'd done so far...and to be told to keep taking it to the Aussies - it looks like they were just told to survive.
The way the team is playing, they remind me of pupils I used to teach who had over-anxious, over-controlling parents. They freeze b/c they're afraid to fail...but the freezing guarantees that failing is exactly what they'll do.
Thanks for everything, Duncan, but you're impeding the growth and success of this team now. We need someone who can take a group brimming with talent and turn them into a team where partners trust eachother's decisions, have faith in their ability to take the necessary risks, and never say die. And someone who will make proactive, not defensive, decisions himself. That is the difference between potential and champions.
Bring on Darren Lehmann.
Complain about this postEngland have again shown the cricketing world how rubbish they can be. Flintoff wanted us to believe that 'the boys have something to prove' after their humiliating defeat in the first test. Meanwhile Duncan wants us to believe the reason for omitting Panesar is for batting strength. The facts are these:
1. England cannot win without world class bowlers: If you can't bowl Australia out- you can never win. As history shows us getting wickets puts the Aussies under pressure- e.g. Harbhajan Singh in the India-Australia series of 2001.
2. Team selection is based on friendships in this side: As long as Freddie and Duncan (and Graveney) continue to pick their mates- their old buddies- England CANNOT win.
We must drop JONES, ANDERSON and GILES- replace them with READ, SAJ and MONTY- then we have a chance. My only concern is it may already be too late. The Aussies just need to win 1 match from 3 at home. Game over.
Complain about this postNegative selection certainly contributed to this result. But let's go back several steps. Why did we agree to so few warm-up matches and matches between tests? The Aussies have not allowed us to get acclimatised . Certainly Monty should be in the side - but a couple of extra games would have helped before the first test.Maybe we need to organise such a programme for 2009 when Australia come here to defend the Ashes, as they surely will. But we must get rid of Fletcher before the World Cup if possible.
Complain about this postNot only am I now very tired, I also feel pretty damn terrible!
I still have no idea how we contrived to lose so spectacularly. I knew we'd lose this series from the moment Monty and Read were dropped for Jones and Giles, it sent out all the wrong messages, and put us on the back foot psychologically. You dont pick bowlers on how good a batsman they are! The batsmen should stop playing stupid shots and look after scoring enough runs.
The selectors should get out to Aus and do their job, not let Fletcher have total control, we need Vaughan back!
Complain about this postEngland's negative tactics on Day 5 cost them this game, as much as the bowling of Warne. They allowed Warne to dominate them, just as they used to in the 'bad old days'. Had they managed to score at even 3 an over for the 45 plus overs they batted today, they would have set a total of around 220 in 36 overs, a much more difficult task. As it was they batted at under 2 an over and thus allowed Warne and co to dominate. While Collingwood's 22 was a gallant effort, surely in a 119 ball innings he could have picked up more than 22 runs.
It was a positive attitude that won the Ashes last year, it is the Fletcher driven negativity that has probably lost them this time. Anderson and Giles did nothing in test one and should have been dropped for Panesar at 11 and Mahmood at 8 for this test. Mahmood can bat, he gets the odd 20, which is all Giles has done and he could not have taken many less wickets, could he?
Fletch has been a very good coach, but all coaches have a life span and his coaching is becoming incredibly stubborn, negative and adopting siege mentality when anyone suggests he is wrong!
Complain about this postAs inept as this was it is in some ways a cheap win.
You've got to take 20 wickets to win a Test does not apply if one team declares. The Aussies only took 16 and can count themselves lucky the great batsmen/fielder Ashley Giles MBE dropped a sitter from Ponting on day 3.
Also I hate seeing lamentable halfwits like Glenn "Buspass" McGrath, Ricky "Gary Pratt" Ponting and Michael "Fat Shane Warne" Clarke being given any opportunity to gloat without helping them out!
PS Bring back Mark Butcher.
Complain about this postYe Gods, beyond belief. Such a far cry from the triumph of last summer. Another reminder of the little England mentality at work. Time for the hero in gleaming helmet to come charging over the desert sands - Monty, where are you?
Complain about this postWhat is it with English sportsmen and self-confidence? The only players to stand up and be counted amongst the carnage were Paul Collingwood and Matthew Hoggard - some might say the least talented of the England team but certainly the players with the most application and guts.
In my lifetime, England's sporting successes have been few and far between (I'm 35). It appears that only when we can unearth exceptional leaders - Martin Johnson, Michael Vaughan can our sports teams overcome that sense of inevitable failure. I'm not sure what it is about the fibre of English society or English sport that encourages mental fragility but don't you just wish we had some of that Aussie self-asuredness in the high pressure situations
Complain about this postWell England obviously bottled it, the question is why.
It was very odd that all the commentators seemed to agree before play that if it wasn't a draw then it would not be the team 100 ahead with 9 wickets standing who would win, but the team who had to bat last on a wicket starting to misbehave. The only reason for that is that Australia have Warne and England have Giles. One suspects the English team felt the same.
If England had Panesar in the side everyone would have been looking for an England win, and the attitude of the batsmen would have been totally different.
We lost because of fear of Warne, far more than because of anything he actually did. Australia are a creaky old side whose best players (Ponting aside) are on the verge of retirement. If England could mentally get their act together they would thrash them.
Complain about this posti'm afraid this is the always the problem with our sportsmen in general abeit football or cricket we just do not have the staying power of concentration and application of adaptability to the demands of the situation,
Complain about this postI'm English! but now I understand what the Aussies see and say about us.
All I can read is complaining about how rubbish England are, and not a single Congratulation to the Aussies.
To snatch victory from a certain draw requires superb play, England didn't throw it away, Australia took it and hats off to them!
They came on knowing they could win - we hadn't even considered it
But the sky isn't falling, its not the end of the world or the series. We still have options, hopefully we will use them this time, and if nothing else we've proved we can hurt them
So roll on Perth, and hopefully Panesar, if we can snatch a win we are right back in it...
Complain about this postWhat's required is the immediate introduction of Robert Key. He may be slightly rotund and have a very sanguine completion, but he'd knock the aussies for 6 allday long.
Complain about this postI can't believe some of the rubbish contained in some of these comments. For the vast majority of this test, England were the better side. Ok, we lost but that doesn't mean wholesale changes are needed for Perth.
Criticism of Giles has been particularly harsh - he didn't bowl that badly and contributed more than Anderson and Harmison. Fletcher has indicated all along that Monty would only get a game if two spinners are required. Besides, Monty's performances in the warm-up games were ordinary at best and I didn't hear anyone criticising Giles when he was knocking back Martyn's off stump last year (he managed to turn it ok then).
England aren't a bad team, they just came second in a close two horse race - unlike last year. If they make any changes for the next test it will be Panesar for Anderson. No-one else deserves a look-in, unless a fully fit Michael Vaughan becomes available.
Complain about this postIf you were australian you would be laughing. And 5-0, maybe, but england will win one after they get thumped in perth.
Complain about this postAll us England fans need a psychologist after this result!
Complain about this postGiles was supposed to be in the side as he is a better fielder and batsman then Monty, however he dropped Ponting when he was on 35 which would have made Aust around 65-4, the definite turning point in this match.
Complain about this postMonty for Giles, Mahmood for Anderson and I would bring in Reid for Jones, although the change of wicketkeeper is not that important on this occasion.
The events of yesterday simply begger belief.
I recall watching Flintoff batting with complete authority in the final session fo day two with England passing the 550 runs mark with style and pomp. At that point he had Giles partnering him and I felt just as had occured on 2005 that England a side equipped witha steel and resolve when playing their arch enemy would now begin the fightback they had continually talked of.
You could still sense the fear in the Aussies when they took to clawing back the runs in their first innings. Langer and hayden again looked indecisive at best alomost expecting that momentum of 2005 to take shape.
With England now holding the record for the team holding the highest first innings total having declared to then go no and lose the game. I simply have two questions:
1) If Mr Fletcher and his captain felt that the batting ability of Flintoff would be negated if he had to bat with 4 no. 11's after him, (incidentally I remember Aggers being the only one to cite this before the first test where everyone else expected to see Monty), then I can see the rationale behind this . What I am failing to understand is having managed to find themselves in a position where Giles' batting ability could now be useful on a day two batting track with Flintoff on 38* why then did they not continue to make runs try to make at least 650 with some free reigned batting all the way down to Harmison. Then use the pressure of the runs to drag down Australia. When Ponting left the crease in the Australia Innings they were still 250 runs behind and had this been 350 runs, England would be looking at a possible winning chance or a draw at worst.
If as they did declare on a competitive but daring 550, with 6 wickets down they may as well have played Monty.
My point is if you feel you can defend 550 then you need wicket takers and therefore to play in this manner you need to include your best spinner.
For me Flintoff has shown a huge dose of inexperience and Duncan Fletcher worse than getting it wrong has actually managed to out manoeuvre himself through a paradoxical tactical approach.
Complain about this postThe turning point of this game was the dismissal of Pietersen. As great a player as he could become it was his arrogance towards Warne that lost England this match. It's not his fault of course that others around him couldn't survive but the shot that he played showed the immaturity that he will doubtless overcome in future years. It's a terrible blow for England but I suspect that they will come back strong for the next 3 tests. Flintoff wears his heart on his sleeve and never stops trying which is largely why England won the ashes and why he still makes sense as captain. Pietersen will learn from his rash shot and should make some big scores and Collingwood has been inspiring. Bowl a little better and there's still a contest to be had.
Complain about this postDuncan Fletcher and his negative tactics cum team selection have to take majority of the blame. Warne showed us all what was on offer to a decent spinner but alas England only had Giles in their ranks.
Can someone please explain what is Monty's fault? Is it that he's a spinner and can't hit 100'a and that he can't field a la Jonty Rhodes? I am sure Monty could, and would, have done better than what Giles managed - dropping Ponting, throwing up pies and scoring a duck.
And as for G. Jones, he's a better batsman than Read only on paper - I haven't witnessed anything of the sort that would induce me to change my opinion thus far.
It is England's policy of picking players that is causing them grief. I mean a bowler's job is to pick wickets and keeper's is to keep - the momen you pick bowlers for batting skills, you are in trouble. If McGrath had been an Englishman, Fletcher would never have picked him citing the lack of batting skills. If 6-7 batsmen can't win a match for you, what good would a batting tailender do?
I strongly feel that Fletcher's shelf life is over and England needs new outlook for the future, and unless they do so Enf will continue to flounder.
Complain about this postWhy will Duncan Fletcher not admit that picking Ashley Giles is a mistake. We need to bowl Australia out twice so him scoring 20 odd runs at number 8 will make no difference to the match result. In any case he scored 0 in the 2nd inns. Our top six should be scoring the runs. Strauss should be captain to let Freddy concentrate on his batting & bowling.
Complain about this postDK
Pity us poor pommies who live in Australia. Shameful performance all round. Fletcher, read the papers and do the decent thing. My Mum could pick a better team.
Complain about this postCongratulations Australia, you were positive and never gave up thinking you could get a result - 'class' I'm afraid to admit.
Complain about this postYou won because you picked your best bowlers (regardless of their batting skills). McGrath & Clark can bowl accurately, Lee has pace and can swing and Warne can spin.
What did we have on display apart from a good Hoggard display? A swing bowler who didn't (when Lee did), a pace bowler who needs some sat nav to find the wicket and a spinner who can't spin (when Warne did it by the bucket load).
You also had a captain! Freddie is a great (although out of form) cricketer and everyone's darling hero BUT he's absolute pants as a captain and he was a big part in the terrible defensive, jobs for the 2005 boys selection.
Does anyone else agree that this bears striking similarities to the last Lions tour under Sir Clive Greenwood.
In that instance the coach stuck with the same players who had brought him glory the prevous year, irrespective of the fact that a number of them were short of top level match practice or form, or simply no longer had the burning desire to succeed having already achieved their ultimate aim.
I personally doubt if Panesar could have made much of a difference. But frankly any one of Giles, Anderson or Harmison could have been dropped without weakening the side.
Complain about this postCan someone please finish this sentance for me?
"Andrew Strauss is not England Captain and we will continue to ignore Monty Panesar because..."
England played devastatingly poorly on the final day, the only player to emerge from this shambles with his head held high is Paul Collingwood. Fletcher's comments post-test tell us all Giles will play in Perth, despite dropping Ponting, despite looking as threatening a bowler as an 80yr old women, and despite batting extremly poorly!
Complain about this postAfter the disaster at Brisbane I was expecting the worse - Aussie recent record at Adelaide P15 W14 L1 D0. But 4 days into the test England have rebuilt their confidence and a draw would be a good basis for the rest of the tests.
Today though was really pathetic. What was going on in the minds of these players? A silly run out, some silly shots, just incredible. Forget the bad decision with Strauss, forget THE dropped catch. These things happen to all teams. But why the collapse? Why can't the management/captain stop the rot in such cases?
One essential change - relieve Flintoff of the captaincy. Batting, bowling and captaining is just too much (c.f. Stewart as keeper, batsman and captain). The other changes can be debated, but this one MUST happen.
Complain about this postIt is ridiculous to ask your best spin bowler stay out of the the playing 11 for the sake of a nonspecialist and defensive bowler who is claimed to be a better batsman .
Complain about this postI am speaking about sad favouritism in English crciket which is not offering right opportunities to deserving palyers like Monty Panesar ,It is well known fact that Monty is one of the best left arm spinners in the world today
England has proven me wrong when it mattered most.They have made me eat my words.How can a team lose from such a position.They are begining to remind me of my own team,the West Indies.This is really a devastated and dramatic defeat.I am really devastated and disappointed
Complain about this postI feel today was more that a simple batting collapse it was outright surrender of meak minded, over paid individuals that tarnish the rich history of English cricket. When will we become a nation unforgiving of failure, instill some backbone & send home the useless players now.
Complain about this postHere's the deal, I live in Perth and am in for a torrid time. Everyone one of those players should be made to come to work with me for the week. Maybe that will give them the motivation they need to stick to the task for five days.
Complain about this postI can only assume that the batsmen were following instructions in the first session - to bat out a draw (There was talk of them batting for the full 90 overs in some quarters!).
With a scorring rate hovering around 1 run an over it was innevitable than ANY collapse would lead to defeat as there were not enough runs in the bank!
Flintoff - is his captaincy up to it? Has he relied too much on advice from Fletcher?
Fletcher - was it his idea to bat in such a negative way?
Any positivs taken from the first 4 days were thrown away and my prediction that the ashes will be lost by Christmas looks spot on!
We went into the series with a negative attitude and have reaped the rewards for this!
Strauss for the Captaincy when the team gets home - and if Darren Lehmann for the coaches job!
Fletcher has become too complacent and hands on - we need a strong captain and a coach that has a new spark of life!
Complain about this postI won't be the only person to say this but why does DF consistently ignore quality players that specialise in their roles, ie Monty & Read but continues with supposed all-rounders who cant cut the mustard! Before long we'll be going back to the bad old days of Ealham, Dermot Reeve, etc. You would never get the Aussies dropping Warne, Mcgrath or Lee even if they couldnt hold a bat! That a batsman's job I thought!!
Complain about this postFor all the teasing beforehand about the Dad's Army we must now remove the tinted glasses and accept the fact that our Ashes success of 2005 was a freak result and like our International Football and Rugby Union teams we simply arn't good enough on the World Stage.
I'm all for bringing Monty into the side because not only can he turn the ball but he has an infectious manner in the field which in this day and age is refreshing.
However, Monty on his own will not bowl out Australia but he may provide that spark that prompts the other bowlers to deliver.
We now move to Perth with the threat of a whitewash at least even money with the bookies. England now have only pride to play for - I'd settle for a 1-3 defeat at this stage, with Sydney being affected by thunderstorms providing the only draw of the series.
Complain about this postAfter today's diabolical display from all concerned, i think we need some drastic changes all of which have been pointed out - Giles, Anderson, Jones, Harmison out etc etc. But I think the one man that is being sorely missed from 'team england' is Troy Cooley, who seemed to get the best out of our bowlers!
Shame on the ECB for letting him go and plot the Aussies game plans.
Time to go fletch and take some of the dead wood with you!
Complain about this postI posted a comment yesterday about building on confidence, England did exactly the opposite. Like many comments posted (and Aggers), I very much doubt England can recover from this.
I also remember a blogger mentioned that will be impossible for England to be all out with a small total considering Shane Warne only got 1 wicket, I guess nothing is impossible (unfortunately I actually feared this would happen!)
As for team selection, I strongly believe that now it is the time to listen to the people and logic, pick Monty, Saj and Read; at least even if they lost the series, no one can say that they have not been given a chance, what can be worse? (I guess if Fletcher still keeps the same team, blindly saying Gilo is in because of his ability as No8 and lose the rest of the series....) I think the team selection for next match will be the factor if Fletch keeps his job or not now.
Complain about this postThe match was lost on day two when Freddy stupidly declared on 551-6 when he had the opportunity to carry on batting, keeping the Australians in the field and beating their 602-9 in the first test.
With what was at the time a placid pitch, there was no chance of bowling them out for less than 350, so we always had to bat again. We should instead have tried to score 700 in the first innings and then bowl the demoralised Aussies out twice. If we hadn't, at least we wouldn't have lost.
Complain about this postSurely Duncan Fletcher needs to reassess his statement that he wants Englant to bat to no8? Will we ever go into a test match with 4 attacking bowlers without worrying if they can contribute with the bat? It seems to me that if the higher order batsmen were doing their job, the bowlers could be left to do theirs! We need an Alan Knott or Alec Stewart.
Complain about this postSURPRISE? Not really. England played better than Australia in England last summer - but even that could have gone the other way but for one dropped catch.
Overall, player for player Australia is the stronger team, though I hate to say it.
1. Ponting and Warne are at the very top.
2. How many of our top 7 batsmen would get in the Aussie side? Pietersen, possibly.
3. How many our bowlers would make it? ........?
4. How many of the Aussie 2nd XI would get into the England side? Jaques, Symonds, McGill....etc.
5. Compare the 2 teams player for player on career test averages. Statistically Australia's XI will a) make more runs b) take wickets for less runs and at a higher strike rate.
SO, let's not be too hard on a team that is missing 3 stars from the Ashes side, were under-prepared, led by an inexperienced captain on "foreign" pitches. (Aussies get plenty of pre-test practice by warming up playing for our counties!!)
SOLUTIONS (short term)
1. Pick players who are in form from the party of 16.
2. Don't pick specialist bowlers on their potential to bail out specialist batsmen.
3. Pick the best wicket-keeper who will give the bowlers the best support.
4. Separate Flintoff and Pietersen in a batting order that ideally combines left and right handed
players. Bell can open.
5. Bring Broad over from the academy for the next "warm-up" game and see how he fares compared with Mahmood and Anderson.
SOLUTIONS (long-term)
Complain about this post1. Resrict overseas players to one per county.
2. Plan the overseas tour schedules much better.
3. Pick a proper captain and groom the next one as designated vice-captain.
4. Recognize talent and temperament and plan to give younger players the right experiences with which to develop it.
I think we lost this test at the end of day two. Why did we declare ? Flintoff and Jones could have added another hundred into the first session before lunch. We had packed the team with lower order batsmen (instead of a decent wicket-taking spinner) so why not use them to full effect - Warne was out on his feet, McGrath could hardly walk. Posting a score of 650 would have made it physically impossible to lose the test and might have meant not having to bat again. On that pitch it was always likely that 550 would not be enought to not bat again and so it proved, Warne bowling at us on day 5 always tricky !!
Complain about this postI'm gutted as the rest of you and I'm welsh !! Where's simon jones when you need him ?
There is no point in having a knee jerk reaction to what can only be described as inept batting display. Remember it was only last year that we we're cheering on the Eng team as heroes - even the king of spain. IF we had only managed to survive the day then we would've had some momemtum going into the thrid test. As it stands now all the pressure is back on us.
We're not as bad side that everyone is suggesting but Freddy, Colly, bell, Hoggard and Pieterson need some suport and I'm talking to you Mr Strauss, Mr Harminson...
At least most of us will be able to get some good night's sleep now.
the only thing I've got to left to say is ....................................................................................................bugger
Complain about this postMy English friends. Truly this is not a surprise is it? Your team has barely won a game in 16 months so really you didnt expect to beat us did you? If I may I will summarise your problems:
1. players out of form - strauss, cook, giles, jones, harmison, anderson. This is half your team.
2. missing players - jones & vaughan.
3. no reverse swing for your boys.
4. insipid selections.
simple really.
And your opponents haven't lost a game since the last ashes....so maybe you aren't playing bad just playing a better team.
Complain about this postWe already have a captain who may get injured before the series is over. There are 2 players in the 11 who have not played much cricket at all in the last 12 months. DO NOT anyone, now start talking about Michael Vaughan coming into the side. You may as well pick Gower and Botham and Nasser!
Complain about this postThe whole strategy of picking the team has been flawed from the very beginning. Lets not make that any worse.
Aggers, you on the other hand need to make some positive comments for the sake of the England side. You said Monty should not play and he hasn't. You said England would collapse and they did. Its all coming from you!!
Get Vaughan back as captain for Perth. I know this smacks of desperation, but, my god, what we saw today was desperate.
I know he's at best half-fit and may not score runs/get wickets (remember, he's no slouch with the ball), but Mike Brearley was picked more or less for his captaincy alone. Vaughan can play that role now.
So,
Complain about this postCook out, Vaughan in
Giles out, Monty in
Anderson out, Mahmood in
As one or two others have pointed out whether or not Strauss should have been given out is irrelevant.
England lost because of the defensive mindset they went into day 5 with. And it probably reflects the defensive mindset in the management/team selection.
I'd wager Monty might have knocked a few more Aussies over on day 5 - it could have been even closer even after England's disastrous batting.
Complain about this postWhat about the lad Hoggard. 7 wickets in the first innings on a pitch like that and then he has to sit and watch the batting fiasco that followed this morning. No one will ever remember his heroics now - poor sod.
Complain about this postBleat, Bleat, Bleat,
All of you poms are slating the coach, easy to have a go at him , so hope he tells u lot to get stuffed and goes back to Africa with his retirement package courtesy of English cricket.
In defence of fletcher, he doesnt go into bat or bowl he has to depend on the players, and unfortunatly the PLAYERS havnt got the balls to stand and fight.
look at the players performance first before calling for the coached head.
finally harmison what a mouse of a man
Complain about this postThe press don't help - all the talk yesterday was about how Australia was now the only team that could win, if England collapsed. And guess what...?
Get behind them guys! And not with a sharp knife.
Complain about this postThe best thing that we can do is hand The Ashes back to the Aussies now and stop the humiliation before we get whitewashed. In the last innings our batsmen played with the yips again; I've never seen such panicky men in all my life, at the end of the day it's a game, they need to pull themselves together and get some perspective before they bottle another test.
Complain about this postFletcher doesn't trust his bowlers, which is why he is obsessed with batting to eight. As for Giles and Jones please, please can we now discard them? A defensive spin bowler, who isn't spinning much, is not helping at all.
Chunky Duc when was the last time you paid your subs your decision to play the king of spain over monty was one of the worst decisions since I decided to have sushi for lunch yesterday. Congratulations on losing England the test match and the ashes.
Complain about this postIf Duncan Fletcher managed the England Football Team.....
David James would be preferred to Paul Robinson because he's got better technique, is better in the dressing room, gets his defenders going etc and that makes up for the mistakes he makes.
Gary Neville would be dropped because he doesn't score enough goals and needs to work on that aspect of his game.
Wayne Rooney would be dropped in favour of Teddy Sheringham because we need someone with his experience to hold things up.
Alongside Teddy he'd play Ledley King to provide extra defensive backup at corners.
Michael Owen would be put straight back into the team as soon as his knee healed, even though he hadn't played a single game for his club.
Complain about this postHindsight is wonderful, knee jerk reactions are easy. Too many comments missing the big point, which is.....
Why do we need to bat to 8? i.e why does DF pike Giles?
Answer:
1. Our test number 6, Flintoff is not a test number 6. He is a number 7 who can take games away in the Gilchrist mode at 7. Look at his average vs other test match number 6's
Last summer Bell's runs at 6 was a big plus, allowed us to pick our best keeper (Read one 50 and 2 30's in 3 inns) and our best spinner (Panesar).
2. Our test number 7 is not a good enough bat (look at his average) and as for his keeping which has improved, it is also not test class.
We need 20 wickets but playing 5 average bowlers is worse than playing 4 very good ones(note very good, lets not get too carried away with Monty just yet).
Bring a new batsman, Vaughan (ideally to skipper) or Joyce or most inform member of academy already in Perth. Play 6 batsman, Flintoff at 7, Read at 8, Hoggard at 9, Panesar at 11 and then choice Harmy or whoever at 10.
Bell, Collingwood and Pieterson can bowl the 12 overs we get now from the 5 bowler. You only need a 5th bowler when your 4 best aren't good enough - only 2 can bowl at once!
Complain about this postI believe this victory has proved that Australia are still number 1 in the world. They have the best overall team.
How many of the England side playing in that test would make the Australian XI? Flintoff and Pietersen, though in current form Flintoff may struggle.
The depth of the England squad is not as great as people make out. Simon Jones is missing and the best they come up with is Anderson. Cook's lack of experience is starting to show, especially in getting out to Clark twice in exactly the same way. Pietersen, while amazing when in the kind of mood he showed in the first innings, needs to learn to adapt to the situation - a bit like the England team as a whole. Great batsman like Tendulkar, Ponting e.t.c can do that. Great teams can do the same.
Complain about this postGutless, spineless, lacking in ambition or a game plan....ummm
Let's get this right, these guys can PLAY, they are (with the exception of some ludicrous selections) 16 of the best 19 players in England. They are talented, professional sportsmen...the problem here is a lack of management, motivation and direction, Flintoff said in his post match interview that he didn't speak with the batsmen this morning...why on earth not?? Why did we sit back 'and see how things developed' rather than grab the game by the scruff of it's neck?
We lost the game on two fronts - not imposing our advantage when the Ausies were 5 down on day 3/4 (we didn't select the right bowlers) and a shocking lack of man-management and cajones on day 5.
I'm shocked by how poor England were today. And very disappointed.
Complain about this postFrom where I lay on my couch here today in Melbourne, it looked right from the start that England appeared to just be playing for a draw.
Complain about this postOur team went in with the attitude that they were going to bat for their lives for a win, and it was that attitude in the end (and Warne's appetite to get the job done) that got them home. When Warne was interviewed by Channel 9 here at the start of our 2nd innings, he was upbeat and absolutely expecting that the guys would bring it home, no negative stuff coming from anywhere.
As someone who lived in England for several years, I feel for you guys today! Come on England, you can do better than that.
There is a fundamental flaw at the heart of British sport.
Complain about this postIt may seem trivial to some, but Flintoff greeting his players wearing a sponsors vest and with a large tattoo on his arm would have made his illustrious predicesors spinning in their graves. I cannot imagine Vaughan making such a bad impression.
It is the same with the rugby players, wearing shirts designed to make them look like they have torso's like superman. A design feature copied from womens fashion.
The players are just not up to it, and it's about time we started learning some lessons from the southern hemisphere
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I woke up in the Cayman Islands this morning expecting England to have amassed a decent second innings total and then put in Australia for the last twenty overs, just to remind the Aussies that England were an ongoing and dangerous threat.
What I got instead was something close to a total reversal. A disgraceful England batting performance, and to add insult to injury, many of the wickets being got by the two `has beens`.
Can England recover? This seems doubtful but at least give Panesar and Mahmoud a chance. I was there this summer for the last day at Headingley. Where has it all gone?
Complain about this posti'm startled. at the result yes but more so at the pirhana-like attack from the the so-called english cricket fans on their own team. it is disgusting. you accuse us aussie fans of being uneducated and uncultured yobbo's but the speed you have turned on your own team is breath taking. For example, lets look at Freddie... he will go on to to be the all-rounder of his generation possibly surpassing the deeds of Sobers and Botham...yet the crap I have read from you about his performance in 2 matches is appalling. Support the man in a time of need. What is wrong with you? Similarly, Pieterson, Harmison, Hoggard and Strauss will end up being great cricketers when compared to those that have played previously. So don't be stupid its just 2 test matches, don't let it sway your faith. Be strong your team needs you to believe in them...
Complain about this postDifficult to have any faith in the England management, especially Fletcher, after this catastrophic defeat. Their responses so far suggest they are seriously in denial. Fletcher must be the only man in the world who thinks Giles should be in the team ahead of Panesar. But he is just as likely to persist with the same team in Perth because he seems incapable of admitting he is wrong.
Complain about this postIt's all his fault...
He should've picked....
That catch was....
Oh, what the point of wondering who to blame. This is the most depressing day in English cricket in our lifetime (and by g-d there have been a few to choose from).
Just gutted!
Complain about this postThis is a direct result of the negative attitude shown by the English managment and coaching staff throughout the entire series so far. Leaving out recognised wicket taking bowlers and not attacking the Australian batting on the last day are two of the obvious errors. It's all good and well to say England should have drawn the game if they had done this and that, but a very important problem is being overlooked....how are England going to take 20 wickets?
Complain about this postHi Aggers. i really enjoy your call on the ABC and your different perspective you bring to the game - but do you actually sit down and read some of the tripe that has been written here?
Yes, England were (very) bad today but Punter said two days ago that we could win. And that is what we believed. 2005 is history and it appears that this series is too.
Yes, you English supporters probably deserve to have a dummy spit and a bit of a whinge but get back on board and support your team. Don't go hitching your trailer to some other bandwagon.
Complain about this postOn a pitch that was still benign, and against a batting line up that had dominated them only a few days earlier, Australia created a situation in which every England batsman either became paralysed with fear or unwisely tried bravado to escape. The scoring rate on Tuesday was a paltry 70 runs in 54 overs and it was the failure to score runs, as much as the failure not to lose wickets, that cooked England鈥檚 goose. Along the way there was a dim run out and some unwise stroke play 鈥 all, of course, brought about by Australia tightening the already very tight screw.
Australia believed, England feared. And in such circumstances it is always the team that believes that wins. The Aussies fully deserved their win 鈥 but for England the Ashes are all but gone, scattered on the ruins of their indecision and dread.
Complain about this postI don't think it is as bad as all that. Pieterson is still a champion, Flintoff too. Collingwood and Hoggard have done brilliantly.
Complain about this postWe (the Aussies) have won in what is essentially a near miracle. The English team will have learnt a lesson they will never forget, too. Giles should go, and Anderson too - bring in the sub-continental contingent, and possibly Read too.
As this article here makes clear - - the Aussies still have a lot of ageing players. A win in Perth, on a flat fast wicket is feasible, and then one in Sydney or Melbourne, which were always going to suit England, is feasible.
Fletcher should be sent home, i wonder what excuse he's got for that debacle, something pathetic i bet just like his team management. hey duncan i heard boycotts looking for you!
Complain about this postThe problem with the Oz team is that they just haven't got the knack of a good collapse.
Due in Oz on Boxing Day and practising an Irish accent!
Complain about this postHaving listened to the cricket on the radio last night I was screaming at the England batsmen to step out the crease and play some positive shots (not completely ludicrous ones like Pietersons sweep). Runs on the board would have better saved the test (which we should have won) than trying to pathetically bat time.
How many times do we see it, especially from the Aussies, that when you play positively you loose less wickets and at a slower rate, as well as at the same time scoring more runs. Vise-versa occurs when playing negatively.
The England mind-set in the second innings was shocking!!
The message they sent out during the second innings gave complete ascendancy to the Australians, which they duly capitalised on.
After regaining some respect at the beginning of the second innings the message this has now sent out for the rest of the series is that the Aussies have absolutely nothing to fear!!
From gutted England fan.
Complain about this postI blame Flethcer for this debacle. From the very start, he adopted a defensive attitude: exhibited by the selection of Giles and Jones. The former not having played for a year and the latter clearly shown up as being deficient in the wicket-keeping area.
You must pick the best players and in this respect, Panesar and Read come into this category. When did Jones last deliver with the bat? Can you really expect Giles to bowl out teams? Particularly having not played for so long?
Complain about this postPoor performance in 2nd innings from England. As ever, there seems to be a lack of footwork from the batsmen, coupled with poor shot selection at times.
Any side must pick their strongest team possible, and England must surely pick Reade as 'keeper & Monty as spinner from now on.
Complain about this postThe damage was done before the test series even started with Fletcher's negative team selection setting the tone for the team. By picking Giles ahead of Monty he is trying to protect his batters rather than trying to bowl the opposition out. By picking Jones ahead of Read he is again trying to protect through the misconception that Jones is the better batter (a fact that I don't believe and the recent stats don't backup). As it is Jones has failed to score runs in crucial situations and Giles has failed to trouble the Aussie batsman. England won the Ashes by being positive in everything they did and they will lose these Ashes by reverting to a safety first policy.
Complain about this postHaving gone to bed feeling fairly secure in the knowledge that I would awake to the last couple of overs of a draw, I was astonished by the result. I am also pretty horrified by the level of negativity in these comments. When will we all wake up and realise that we won the ashes in England because we had a fully fit team of in-form professionals, a very good captain and conditions we were used to.
Australia are (and have been for some time) the best team in the world by a street. The problems they had last time were a failing middle order (Enter Mike Hussey) and poor back up bowlers (Enter Stuart Clark). They now have a better side than they did in 2005 and are at home.
England have picked a captain that should not have been picked (remember what happened to Botham when he was captain) and, for reasons that are open to debate, an undercooked fast bowling attack combined with a spinner who was never going to be effective in Australian conditions; that is not to diminish his achievements last time round.
If England were ever going to compete in this series it was going to take every single player being at the top of his game and probably a bit of luck too. Why can't we stop lambasting our own team and get behind them? and maybe salute some brilliant play from the Australians.
I am an eternal optimist, so I think we can still get back into the series, but unfortunately to do this we have to take some risks. It is now time for Wheelie bin to step aside and give Monty a go, it is time for Freddie to decide that enough is enough and hand over the captaincy and it is time to risk spraygun Mahmood. We have proven that we can score runs so a little tinkering with the bowling attack cannot hurt, it might even work....
Complain about this postwell eng supporters not to worry ur playin the best team on earth plus aust hasnt lost a test this year and havnt lost a series at home for a long long time u need to get rid of s jones he even droped clarke but the game was pretty much lost anyway but still he droped him his not to good a player i reckon im better then him im a keeper im out of contract too im sure i can do a better job call me fletcher
Complain about this postThis boils down to England thinking the game was already a draw after day two when we declared. Who could lose 9 wickets for 60 runs after posting 551 in the first innings? Only England.
After staying up and watching the highs of the Pietersen and Collingwood innings I thought we'd be back on track - draw this one, have 10 days off and recouperate, then go full steam ahead in Perth. That now sadly isn't the case as we're now playing for pride, not the urn.
If I were Duncan Flethcer, which thankfully I'm not as I'd be expecting to lose my job pretty soon, I would do as follows:
OBVIOUSLY drop Giles. Even if it's to silence the masses, give Monty a game. We need 20 wickets, so let's have a wicket-taking offensive bowler.
Okay, he's no batsmen, but do you see Murali being dropped from the Sri Lanka side because he can't bat either? I don't think so. You play your best bowlers, because they bowl. End of story. If the other SEVEN people in front of him in the batting line-up can't get the runs, then that's down to them. And as for fielding, Giles' drop cost us the game. THAT IS A COLD FACT. Maybe Monty would have held it??
I think give Mahmood a go at Anderson's expense. He's erratic at times and can cost you, but he's hostile and is more a attacking option. I think Anderson's a good player but is short of matches and confidence.
I don't think we should get rid of Jones for Read. With the gloves he hasn't dropped any, and with the bat there isn't a huge amount between them. I wouldn't have dropped Read after the Pakistan series, but now he has I think 2 changes is enough, 3 is as if we're totally panicking.
Finally, Freddie has too much to do. I think the load should be shared with Strauss somehow. Bringing back Vaughan isn't the answer. Tactically he's great but you wouldn't throw a football player into the FA Cup final after not playing for a year would you?
Hopefully now the pressure is off as we all expect a defeat in Perth there may be a turnaround in our form, but I doubt it. I'd be happy as long as it's not 5-0 at this stage.
Complain about this postGiven our excellent position going into the final day, I think our tactical awareness and level of professional application was quite appalling. Listening to Duncan Fletcher's comments after the match merely confirmed my suspicions that he is no longer up to the task, and should be removed forthwith. I also think that the demands of the captaincy placed on Flintoff does nothing to alleviate the pressure on his personal performance, and although yet to contribute with his batting, I think Strauss would be better suited in this role. On the evidence witnessed so far in this series, messrs Harmison,Giles,Jones,and Anderson have demonstrated precious little to justify inclusion in the starting XI, and one can only presume that their selection has been perhaps based more on loyalty and past achievements, rather than current form. Expecting players coming back from long term injuries to suddenly perform at this level without sufficient evidence of fitness at county standard, defies all logic in the first place. Difficult situations demand tough decisions. Lets just hope that we now learn from this bitter experience and have the courage to act accordingly.
Complain about this postI'm not surprised for a slight bit at the trouncing currently suffered by the England cricket team.
Complain about this postAs I've always thought all along England were very lucky to beat the Aussies in the last Ashes. The Aussies are a tough bunch & of course they would love to regain the Ashes & seize the chance to batter England into submission. It's a worrying trend that England tend to collapse totally after winning a major tournament, as seen clearly in rugby & now the cricket. It seems obvious that English sportsmen are generally not tough enough mentally, apart from a very few, such as Flintoff.
Yes, we have several injuries to important players but we just can't keep using this excuse. We should, as a major sporting nation, have players more than capable of just making up the numbers.
My prediction is that the Aussies will beat them 5-0, easily.
I really think consideration needs to be given to dropping James Anderson, i mean really has he done anything apart from give away a lot of runs to the australian batsman!!! He is one of the worst touring bowlers I have ever seen!!
Complain about this postApart from his bowling display being shocking he has no ability with the bat either. Either pick Monty or anyone else for that matter to replace him.
I think it's a real pity that England couldn't see this test match through to the end.
Complain about this postI do think that making flintoff captain was the wrong thing to do - his batting has been less than average since last summer (ave 17). Also, for the second time in a row, England have picked two players (Jones and Giles) for their batting as opposed to their specialism. Better to have a proper wicket keeper and a spinner in fine form.
It's not over til it's over, but the future looks bleak.
still fletcher insists he's right to pick gilo. why can't he admit he's wrong , it will cost england the ashes. also harmison and anderson are not looking like taking any wickets (or making any runs) surely monty and maybe even mahmood or plunkett must at least be given a chance. they cant do any worse than the current lot. unfortunately its probably already too late to save this series. shambles.
Complain about this postWith a heavy heart i have to admit defeat. Monty has not been given a chance, and i will lose my 拢10 bet.
Monty would/should have been "Sports Personality of the Year."
Fletcher, you owe me 10 quid.
Complain about this postAfter day 4 of this test I, like many other people, must have been pleased with the England performance on what is not a fantastic pitch.
I was absolutely astounded this morning when the breaking news on breakfast tv was that England had managed to lose!
There seems to be a lack of responsibility from the batsmen and some of the bowlers do not deserve to be in the squad, let alone the team.
Why have Panesaar and Reid not been selected?
This whole tour is tirning into a debacle and I feel sorry for the travelling fans who have spent a small fortune to end up watching this poor, lack-lustre performance.
Complain about this postThe fundamental difference between 1986/87 is mindset and strategy. I don't believe the current team arrived in Australia knowing they could retain the Ashes. And you know what, I'm not surprised when Giles ends up playing before Monty.
This is a grim day for English cricket, defensive strategy, pathetic batting and an inept captain. I have no sympathy for any of them. 5-0 thank you very much.
Complain about this postNot only has trescothic gone home depressed i think all the england team will be goin back to england depressed hehe go the green and gold go the aussies
Complain about this postIts becoming evident that Michael Vaughan's captaincy is what was the real difference last summer. That is not to say that Flintoff is a bad captain but Fletcher has too much influence rather than letting Flintoff get on with the job. Also, to continue playing Asley Giles is ludicrous. No self-respecting test team should rely on their number 8 to score runs; we need 20 wickets to win a test match!
Complain about this postEngland need to be positive & bold for the next test. I would drop Giles, Anderson & Jones, and replace with Joyce, Panesar & Read.
This would:
a) boost our batting (Joyce to open with Strauss, followed by Cook, Bell, Pietersen & Collinwood);
b) take some pressure off Freddy (who would bat at 7);
c) boost our bowling (Monty is a strike bowler, and we still have 7 players who can bowl); &
d) improve our keeping.
Can England be so bold????????
Trouble is, I doubt it!!!.
Complain about this postWhat a surrender . We are using 2 bowlers to try and bowl out 20 players
Complain about this postGiles and Anderson havent played for a Year. giles was terrible poor bowling on a worn pitch exerted no pressure no contribution with the bat and that dropped catch
Flintoff is a terrific player but he seemed almost asleep when he batted i dont rate is captaincy and i think the manager/coach needs to go do something else quick
hapless run out poor shot selection inability to score runs before lunch what a pathetic perfomance
hapless and in need of some mental toughening
I'm afraid it really comes down to an inability to bat, bat, bat to save a game. Too often we are in a position where if we just bat out we can draw. We don't need to score runs in this position, we just need to stay in.
In the first Test we were in this position and Cpt. Flintoff was caught on the boundary. Unnecessary. We didn't need runs.
Similar position today and Cpt. Flintoff was again out for a rash shot. Pietersen, well... the sweep shot is highly risky for little return and should only really be used when a game is safe.
You can't blame Flintoff for declaring, it was the right decision at the time, pressure on the Aussie batsmen in the last few overs and we got three early wickets. The drop of Ponting was a turning point but they happen. We found ourselves in a position where we just had to stay in and couldn't. Not only couldn't, which would be acceptable if we were playing the right shots, but rash and silly strokes meant we lost it rather than were beaten.
Complain about this postThe biggest casualty here is Flintoff's standing. By supporting the make-up of the side they picked, he is tarred with the same brush. His batting has looked poor and he was out-captained by a guy whose leadership attributes begin and end with calling the toss and deciding when to declare. Shades of Botham's ill-starred captaincy?
Complain about this postWhat a debacle, humiliating embarrasing debacle..do I need to name who has to go???just check their records since the Ashes win in UK, against a team minus Hussey. I feel the use by date of HJarmison, Anderson, Giles(how the hell can he be valued above a wicket taker, the best spin bowler in England, Monty... )which says to me, unfortuantely, Fletcher's use by date is also up. There is no way this particular rabble can come back from such an embarrasment..I know it's in retrospect, but Freddies answer to Shayne Warnes bowling in the first innisngs should have been...ok..that's what you want...bowl us out...and not declared. I don't know how I can face my aussie mates..Luckily, I have already had one say "I feel for you"...and he wae being sincere..
Complain about this postIt's OK for Duncan Fletcher to insist on batting to number 8 if you field a bowling attack capable of taking 20 wickets. We didn't and we paid the price. He had already bolstered the batting by selecting Geraint Jones ahead of Chris Read. Perhaps he doesn't wish to blame the batsmen but he could at least accept some criticism for a very negative team selection.
Complain about this postI'm not sure there'll be many who will be surprised by England's failure. Frankly, some of the England side looked beaten after Giles put down Ponting but credit to Australia for chasing an unlikely victory when it was difficult to see what England were aiming for themselves. Even 200 would have been a better focal point as opposed, perhaps, to the 90 over survival target that Pieterson had, on the m orning of day 5, suggested was the teams main aim.
Complain about this postI see a lot of people blaming Giles and Anderson for England's defeat but if you look at what the whole team then:
Strauss - poor shot in the first innings but unlucky it seems in the second not many runs
Cook - two poor shots not many runs
Bell - good score in the first ruined by poor shot selection, pointless run out in the second
Collingwood - utterly blameless
Piteresen - great first innings dreadful shot in the second when team needed him stupid overthrows just when runs were precious and the pressure was mounting on Clarke
Jones - ok behind the stumps but no runs
Flintoff - bowled with fire and passion batted OK in the first innings with pressure off dreadful in the second
Giles - a few runs in the first innings with pressure off none in the second very average bowling dropped one catch
Hoggard - great bowling in the first innings little used in the second
Harmison - no wickets for England's premier strike bowler
Anderson - one expensive wicket and McGrath at that
I think that Collingwood and Hoggard are pretty blameless the rest need to have a good hard look at their performance
Yes Giles dropped the catch and it ended up that Ponting made a big score that won the game but had he been dismissed next ball nobody would be talking about it
Complain about this postSurely Duncan Fletcher needs to stand up and say "I was wrong".
The man that was picked for his better fielding and batting dropped the most important catch in the match, and went on to score 0. Where is the case for playing Giles over Monty now?
Flintoff hasn't got the tactical nous to take on Ponting - Vaughan out-captained Ponting last time round. There's no danger of Flintoff doing that here - hapless and naive, I believe the phrase was, and I couldn't agree more.
There is no way back - only Bradmans team has come back from 2-0 down, and we're a long way short of that. 3-1 Australia.
Complain about this postFletcher keeps insisting that they must bat to number 8. Why? There's no point batting at all if you can't bowl out the opposition twice! And in the second innings they didn't bat beyond 3!
Anderson and Giles (neither of whom will ever bowl the Aussies out) must go. Harmison should be retained because if he regains his form then he can win a match on his own.
I always said the MBEs should have been given only when we brough the Ashes back from down under. Those awards are looking increasingly like a bit of a bad joke...
Complain about this postAfter looking at the itinerary for the Ashes tour I didn't bother trying to organise a trip. Whoever agreed to playing back-to-back test matches just 10 days or so after arriving in Australia with no proper preparatory time needs their head examined.
The defensive, cautious England teams selected by DF have sent out the clear message that we are scared of the Aussies and in the end it has achieved nothing, we are still 2-0 down. Now, we have to break for some pointless ODI matches. The itinerary is barmy, unless you are an Aussie beer manufacturer.
Complain about this postAfter another shambolic defeat, its come time for Fletcher to hold his hand up and say its time to go. Mistakes have been made, get monty in. Straus should be the skipper. When it was time to build pressure this morning Freddie set a one day field to cut off the boundries giving them 6 singles an over! I cant see anyway back, summer 2005 seem a long way off now!!
Complain about this postI am not clear why the collapse came as such a surprise to professional commentators. England are known to be liable to collapse in such circumstances and whilst they appeared to be playing Warne competantly at the end of the fourth day, the TV highlights showed how much the balls moved when being pitched in the rough. So when I awoke at 5am I was not surprised. Whilst being paid as professional cricketers, some players appear to lack maturity
Does this result and the at Brisbane call into question the whole question of permanent contracts, which seem to result in players simply not having enough match practice.
Add to that the injuries / illnesses to members of the ashes winning team which have either resulted in several players being absent or not fully match fit, it is surprising England did as well as the did in Adlaide!!
Collingwood and Bell have at last returned the faith that the selectors put in them, - Panesar does not need to prove anything except to the selectors apparently.
The Perth test needs Panesar, another reliable seamer and probably a change of keeper.
Complain about this postI am one of the rare breed of Australian-based England supporters, who from 1987 to 2005 endured 18 years of disappointment and ineptitiude.
The pathetic performance in this series was the careful culmination of 18 months of failure to plan adequately and a negative conservative self-defeating attitude which emenated from the Board,the coach and eventually poisoned the minds and bodies of the players.
1) Bad luck with injuries is no excuse !!
Why Jones and Vaughan could not be treated to recovery with this series as a priority makes no sense.
Trescothick had a clear mental fragility that was left to worsen under the glare of pressure and high expectations....why was he dragged out here when clearly not strong enough to cope.
That Flintoff and Harmison were underdone and not match fit is fully evident now but for 12 months the propaganda has been trust us, wait and see.
2) Letting the only successful bowling coach in 20 years walk away over money shows that the England management need to be sacked themselves.
3) Cowardice in selection sees Gile in the team instead of Monty, and Harmison kept in here when he is in clear danger of becoming an irrelevancy.
Be brave and select players who are young, mentally and physically resilient.
Lord knows they might not go to a nice University or they may even be of non anglo-celtic backgrounds.
4) Send teams out here earlier than 3 weeks before a test and play real four day matches.
5) How can players like Harmison complain about pressure after years of playing as professional cricketers ?
This is the real world and if you can not handle pressure then do not play against Australia because they will find your weakness and break you mentally. (Ask Gooch about Terry Alderman !!)
Apologies for the rant but this series just became another self-induced catastrophe by the senior management of the cricket team.
That the players themselves self destructed today was just the last rites of a campaign that is over before the third test. I so wish that I am wrong !!
I want to see an England team that has an ongoing, modern and well resourced plan to be the best in the world.
At the moment they are in danger of playing in the second division.
There may still be three lions on the shirt but their toothless management has long lost its courage.
Complain about this postTHAT was a paddling!!!!
Complain about this postIt鈥檚 all about mentality now. Its simple, we either play defensive or we attack and win the next match which I still think we are more than capable of doing, but with all due respect to Flintoff and Fletcher that wont happen with the side they have picked for the past two tests. We need to bring Panesar in the line-up. All the talk of pitches and conditions goes out the window. Play Panesar and let him get at the Aussies and menace them. You have to put the fear of god into the opposition, and we simply didn鈥檛 do that in the first test, but did show signs of it in this second test. What will probably happen is that Panesar will be over looked again, because they want to bat all the way down to number eight! Unfortunately even that isn鈥檛 happening. So it's time to change the tactics! We need 20 wickets, who can provide them? Monty can. One win is all we need to make the Aussies think twice, and one win is all we need to make our team believe again. Look at how we won the Ashes. We didn鈥檛 win because we were afraid. We played on the offensive and didn鈥檛 give the Aussies any ground or respect and got right at them.
Complain about this postThe selections of a spinner and wicket-keeper on the basis of their batting has been shown to be flawed but can easily be corrected. The selection of Flintoff to captain the side is much more worrying.
Complain about this postFlintoff is one of the best all-rounders in the world. However, all-rounders need freedom to be the wild men they are. They do not make good captains.
Ponting is special in the way that Vaughan is special. Mike Brierly had it to such an extent that he got picked for it.
Strauss is the natural choice but we are not in a position to make it.
Selection is costing us dearly!
We currently have the "Sven of cricket", can't he see the team he is picking just isn't working and his tactics are flawed.
Drop Giles for Panasar, Jones for Read, one of the openers for Vaughan if he is fit and let Mahmood have a go instead of Anderson or Harmison
C'mon Fletch at least give it a go.
Complain about this postI always enjoy hearing the ear bashing that goes on when a team performs poorly - as if the guy drinking beer in the pub or the bloke sitting in his armchair could do it better. Fact is they were well beaten twice, unfortunately the best collective players in England arn't as good as the Aussies collectively. - case closed.
Complain about this postCan we take back their MBEs...
Complain about this postengland really needs the full monty, if you are incapable of bowling out the opposition it matters little how far down the order your better batsmen go. perhaps the bowlers could follow australias lead and spend more time learning how to bat.
Complain about this postas a pom living in oz may i add that the crap i'm receiving at work has been hard to argue against and todays disgrace has me considering a sickie tomorrow. in retrospect my optimistic comments about the empire striking back at lunch on day two may have been a mistake.
Hey Michael - Don't cancel your trip out. Australia is still a great place to visit and the weather is awesome so far.
I still can't believe what happened today but hopefully this won't make the rest of the series any less exciting.
Also to the guy that wondered why we don't have fast green pitches in Australia, it's probably because we don't have any rain around here at the moment and Australian pitches have never been green. Perth used to be fast but the centre wicket was dug up a few years ago and it is now a spinners paradise (especially going on the shield results so far this year). The whole point of winning away series is to play in the oppositions conditions. These are the same types of pitches we always have here. Although Adelaide was a batsman paradise because of the weather and the outfield was slow because of the temperature forecast during the test - so the grass was kept longer than usual - but in the end, both teams play on the same pitch.
Hopefully you guys drop Giles for Monty (I want to see him play). Looks like McGrath could be playing his last series as Clarke is easy doing better than him this series.
Keep up the good work on the ABC Jonathan. You call almost makes it worthwhile rocking up to work. Hopefully Kerry won't be too much of a handful at perth!
Complain about this postThis is a devastating defeat for England and one that can be blamed on the negative selection policy of Fletcher and the lot.
Common on Aggers , admit it. It was a mistake to pick Giles who did not perform with the bat nor looked like a wicket taker or even someone who can contain the batsmen. Giles looked hopeless in the second innings as well as the first and let down the team badly when they looked for a spinner to tie things down at the other end.
Austalia played superb agressive cricket and despite the terrible umpiring decisions against England, Australia deserved to win simply because they refused to accept a draw and were always on the lookout for a win.
England must learn from the past 2 matches and Fletcher should give up his stubborness and acknowledge his selection blunder, a humiliating 5-0 whitewash for England looks very likely against a aggressive Aussie lineup.
Complain about this postYet again Fletcher is defending his inclusion of Giles. It is now a point of principle with him and he will never admit that he was wrong.
If he had said after the first match "It wasnt really Ashleys game so I have decided to give Monty a go next match" then people would think "At least he is capable of observing the run of play and making changes". Unfortunately we are dealing with a man who will not say to fans, journalists and the rest of the team "I was wrong"
I think Monty would have taken wickets and restricted Australia to lower totali n their 1st innings.
If you are reyling on Giles's runs to win a match that shows no faith in your top order and is a stupid strategy anyway.
Warne/Muralitharan/Harbajan/Bishan Bedi/Underwood / Emburey/ Edmonds all great bowlers and poor batsmen. See a pattern anywhere Fletch?
My strategy
Giles OUT Panesar IN
Anderson OUT Mahmood IN
Jones OUT Read IN
Next match is last chance saloon for Harmison and Cook with Plunkett and Joyce as their potential replacements
Lets have some positivity and aggression - learn from the Aussies.
The bowlers should take every boundary personally and be determined to dismiss the batsman next ball.
The batsmen must have a look at Collingwoods defiant and scrapping attitude and apply some of that to their own game.
where the batsmen are picked for their batting, the bowlers for their bowling and the wicketkeeper for his wicketkeeping.
There were some great positives from the last game despite the shocking result. Collingwood and Pietersen both showed they are world class players and Hoggard produced exactly when it mattered most.
COME ON ENGLAND!!
Complain about this postHaving just returned from Brisbane and almost overcome the jet lag I am now having to go for therapy after this morning - at least if I'd been able to stay on I could have drowned my sorrows in some sun shine!
Complain about this postAndrew Flintoff's career as captain is showing alarming parallels with the career of Ian Botham. Botham was , and still is arguably the finest all rounder this country has ever produced....but he didn't do very well as captain.
Andrew Flintoff should be relieved of the captaincy so he can concentrate on taking 5 wickets and scoring a 50 in every innings like we know he can!!.
Lets stay behind the lads!!. A win in the next Test would mean life in this series yet!!.
It's not over until the last ball of the last test is bowled.
Complain about this postFletcher and Flintoff must take 100% of the blame for this!
Picking their friends Anderson and Giles who haven't played test cricket for a year, over Read and Panesar really came back to haunt them. The bowling line up was never going to do the job and how many runs did Giles fielding, batting and bowling give England?
Bring in Read, Panesar and Mahmood and let them have their rightful go at the Aussies!
Complain about this postWhat can I say. Living here in Sydney listening to the Aussies telling themselves how good they are at sport. This was a poor result for England, and they should have done better. I suppose I will have to suffer the onslaught of cheering Aussies. I should be looking forward to the next 3 tests. Instead I will just enjoy the sun, as the poms are in the jaws of defeat. Its great to watch good cricket but I fear that this day next week that the series may be over.
Complain about this postWe need radical solutions as we have got to win the next match.
Flintoff to stand down and let Strauss take over as he was far better at the captaincy in the summer. Monty to come in instead of Giles.
Complain about this postThis was a dreadful result but we all need to remember how feisty we were in the first innings, Collingwoods's double century and KP's fantastic 158. Plus the brilliant bowling of Hoggard.
Complain about this postLet's will the England team to put this fifth day in the past and show what they're made of in the next test.
Who the heck said cricket is boring?
I'm afraid England have reaped the consequence of picking a team of nearly fit players (Trescothick, Flintoff) out of form players (Harmison, Anderson) and Giles, who could fit into both and any other category you care to name. He has no match sharpness, no overs under the belt. You cannot play your way into form against Australia, they don't give you the space. At least Freddie gave it a go, but has he injured himself again through playing (albeit heroically) too early?
Complain about this postForm bowlers : Panesar and Lewis - why risk returning Giles from injury. Why ignore the lessons of the ICC trophy and consistent wicket taking of Panesar and Lewis?
Why discard Jones, play Read (who did not do much wrong at the ICC), then repick Jones when he has not fixed the problems that led to his dropping in the first place?
Well done Paul Collingwood - we need more players like you. Bat, bowl + field (beats Giles hands down don't you think?).
Perhaps if the whole team took a supplement without knowing that there was a huge amount of a confidence producing drug, it would help and they would get away with it!!!
Complain about this postawful, just awful, dont know what more to say.
I would be playing:
Strauss
Butcher/Cook
Bell
Collingwood (admittedly wouldnt have chosen him prior to this series)
Pieterson
Flintoff
Read
Mahmood
Hoggard
Broad/Harmison
Panesar
Ok so theres a lack of experience, especially in this most pressured of situations, but can you seriously tell me they could do any worse than the current crop. i have cook as a maybe, but regardless think this will stand him in good stead like bell who failed last year but has learnt from it. and i have broad as a maybe just simply because he has no real experience, but frankly who cares, again could be a great learning curve.
Complain about this postWe won the Ashes by being bold and decisive - we've surrended them by being negative and frightened.
Complain about this postPick Giles for his batting hey? isn't his test best score 50 odd - well done Ashley, even McGrath has a best of 61.
How can the team have belief to beat Australia when they are going into tests carrying players, they must know at the back of their minds that Giles, Anderson and Jones aren't up to it. The problem is even if they were replaced the confidence of Reed, Monty etc.. has been shot by Fletcher and Flintoff picking their mates instead of maintaining the continuity of selection that brought success in the first place.
Sack Fletcher immediately after the Ashes, he was never going to produce a good World Cup - any mug of a coach could produce a decent test team now we have central contracts
The problem is cultural. We don't grow up in a sporting environment where winning is everything, our ethos of "Its not the winning its the taking part" is ingrained in our psyche.
We don't take the vitriolic pleasure from beating anyone and everyone. We get worked up over Argentina and a few others selected teams in various sports but the Aussies want to destroy and demoralise every team they play at every sport. We get embarrassed at thrashing teams and something deep inside us wants to apologise if we beat opponents heavily. We'd much prefer a hard fought narrow victory - or loss, than a thumping win.
Its just not in our nature to be that competitive, it makes the UK one of, if not, the most tolerant places in the World to live but doesn't help us win much. Would you really rather be Australian?
Complain about this postwhilst watching the highlights on bbc2 yesterday, i was rather disturbed to hear of shane warne believing that the aussies could win the test on the final day and that he was "up for it". i knew then that we would go on to lose the match as i have a semi sixth sense and could feel a batting capitulation coming, alas i was proved right again as england simply must have heard this talk and like gutless, headless chickens went out and batted in such a general manner.
what really annoys me is this alleged "spinner" ashley giles. why does he continue to be selected? pietersen, a part time spinner has managed to get more turn on the ball in both tests so far. its embarrasing, and frankly the alleged runs he is supposed to get with the bat, he gives away far more when he bowls so picking him is non-sensical.
the only pluses from bowling are hoggard, and glimpses from flintoff, but glimpses in oz will not stand you in good stead. panesar should definitely have played from the first test, and also give another fast bowler a try instead of harmy/anderson. harmison has been avearge since the first test of last ashes.
i also think the batting has been somewhat negative as well. collingwood has been a trooper but i just think his first innings score was obvoiusly good, but coming off nearly 400 balls, just makes me think that we are not attacking enough to actually go out and win a match. with strike rates like we have been seeing, a draw or final day batting capitulation are the most likely results.
my semi sixth sense still tells me though that england will draw the series 2-2, but ony if giles and one of anderson/harmy is dropped to give us a chance, remember you heard it here first or i am an eternal optimist!
Complain about this postNote to Jeff Keogh (post 12):
Kasprowicz said that he would have been gutted had he been bowling and the appeal had been turned down. This wasn't a bad umpiring decision. It may not have been correct, but even in slow motion, it was difficult to pick up.
However, other than, fair points, well made! Trust me, any sour graped are really just bitter disappointment at the performance of those that were picked and the exclusion of those that weren't.
Complain about this postI KNOW HOW WE CAN WIN THE NEXT 3 TESTS!!
Complain about this postWe need to add life to our impotent bowling 鈥o let's give our bowlers (if that's still a fair description) big doses of steroids and just make sure we don't 'advise them about the supplements' so they don't get banned when found out. ...oh hold on is there a steroid for bowling accurately or knowing how to spin? Regardless, it will at least get them screaming appeals every other delivery and the umpires will cave in.
I am very, very cross.
I was just thinking on Saturday about the Sri Lanka test at Lords when Flintoff arrogantly ran of the park after declaring at 550 half way through day 2.... only to fail miserably to bowl the Sri Lankans out twice, injure himself in the process and actually if they hadn't run out of time Murali would probably have done to England exactly what the Australians have done here. Oh, and the fact that Australia lost to India at Adeleide in 2003 after making 550 in the first innings. MAKE A PROPER TOTAL FLINTOFF. Did he think Ponting left England 650 or whatever to win in Brisbane as a joke? No - it was to supress all shred of hope.
I hate Giles for even putting himself up for selection when he knew Panesar was the younger, fitter and better bowler - and why does no one remember that he stuck with Collingwood in Nagpur so the latter could score a maiden century and put England in a winning position. He's hardly had a chance since. HE CAN BAT!
I hate Flintoff for crying in a corner until he was made captain ahead of Strauss, when he clearly has no clue how to tactically manage a game: Stick to bowling fast and nodding your head you fool - you can't even bat while captain anyway.
I hate Fletcher for being an old, fat, stubborn, arrogant, phoney. I hate Warne, McGrath - all the Australians except maybe Hussey - he seems alright. I hate England as a whole - the team, the country, everything - we can't even find an Englishman to be prime minister, let alone coach the cricket team. And most of all I hate cricket in general - rubbish idea, rubbish sport - I can't even play it - how did I get sucked into such nonsense? Rubbish.
Complain about this postThank you.
The fact that Giles was playing in front of Monty is a disgrace - playing a 'spinner' who doesnt turn the ball infront of a guy who can dismiss top batsmen and win you a game defies belief. Fletcher should do the graceful thing an stand down immediately.
Complain about this postPicking Chris Read in the build up to the Ashes instilled me with confidence that we'd have a more successful batting line up to face the Aussies. However, being left out instead of Geraint Jones, who has consistently failed to do anything with the bat makes me wonder what on earth is going through Duncan Fletchers head - plus the use of Ashley Giles instead of the far more talented Monty Panesar.
I think we can now forget the Ashes this time round. We miss the captaincy of Vaughan and the strong opening partnership of Tresco and Strauss. Alistair Cook has failed to live up to my expectations of him, and the blow suffered after this defeat could ultimately lead to a 5-0 whitewash...
Complain about this postAn absolute disgrace.Harmison and Giles must be dropped
Complain about this postI would support England though they didnt played well today. Warne is always a threat on a last day test wicket and he proved it again.Next matches onwards I think they need to be more positive. I am so happy with their perfomence Australia was under presseure for 2 days this is big achievment.
Complain about this postI think this result really shows just how much professional sport these days is played as much between the ears as anywhere else. As in parts of the Brisbane test, the English players have shown many of them do have the skills to match it with Australia. However their mental resolve is certainly lacking, cracking under the niggling and relentless Aussies.
Hopefully Aggers doesnt crack under the same sort of pressure applied to him by Skull. At least he got a break in Adelaide.
Bring it On
Complain about this postfunny how a 5 day test match can come down to 1.38 seconds - the time from Ponting鈥檚 bat to Giles鈥 hands.
As Boycott said why was he standing 10 yards in on the shortest boundary - a schoolboy error.
Complain about this postFletcher is taking a lot of criticism - and rightly so, but Flintoff must take his share of the blame for this appauling capitulation. Packing the team with his mates i.e. Giles and Jones, at the expense of players who have the ability to get a result.
Having said that the real blame lies with the naive and cowardly performance of our 'batsmen'. How can supposedly world class players turn into rabbits in the headlights whenever the slightest pressure is applied?
Complain about this postThe best we can hope now is to avoid the whitewash - and even that will be a battle now. We've let them off the hook.
I think the quoted figures below are sufficeint for any comment required on England's bowling.
Anderson, Giles, Harmison - 6 wickets taken, 853 conceded"
Anderson has never been Test class. Giles has been a worthy selection with little competition for his place...but times have changed.
As for the second innings batting today....well, aside from Strauss the others all need to look at how simple the task was if they had continued with the positive technique and application they had shown in the first innings. A record breaking loss from a dominant position. It's happened before but not on this scale.
Complain about this postOh the sheer irony. It was because of his superior batting an fielding ability that won Gilo his place in the test team - so what does he go and do: drop ricky ponting and make 0 in the 2nd innings. Now that what a great decision to pick him
Flecth if you want to compete in the ashes the you better listen and listen real quick. drop jones, gilo and anderson and bring in monty, read and mahmood and then you will have a team. If not, I think your time may be up............
Complain about this post"[DF] urgently needs to establish why a group of successful cricketers, the first for 20 years to come here holding the Ashes, continues to be intimidated by the Australians."-JA.
Complain about this postYeah right Aggars, since when have anderson, G Jones or gileo ever been successful? I've always said, and will say again, my mother can bowl better than ashley giles. now Monty, he is successful. Why no word aggers? scared DF won't like you? or are you as deluded as him?
The English sporting disease; ignore the players in form and pick the "good old boys who've done it for us in the past". It doesn't work in football or rugby and has never worked for us in Cricket.
Give Monty the ball and get rid of that plank behind the stumps. If our top order batsman are so poor that we need batting down to number 8, then we should give up now and come home. At least that way we will avoid unnecessary pain over the Christmas period.
Complain about this postFletcher is too stubborn and arrogant to drop Jones and Giles now.
If he does, he will just be admitting that he has made an all mighty balls-up of this Ashes series. Yes the batsman royally screwed up in the second innings of this test but it was HIS ridiculous defensive decision on the first day at Brisbane that lost us any chance of defending the Ashes.
I honestly thought that by including Jones instead of Read in the first test it would mean that we would get Monty instead of Giles, but how wrong (naive) could I have been. Fletcher handed the Australians total psychological advantage in the match and series by picking a man that hadn鈥檛 bowled a ball for virtually a year, just because he wanted to re-enforce the batting (doesn鈥檛 say a great deal about our batsman does it?).
Has anyone asked him how he envisages getting 20 Australian wickets in a test? I would love to know his answer.
Freddie and Hoggard have tried their best but Anderson is toothless and Harmison has trouble hitting the slips, let alone the wicket, at the moment. Maybe Fletcher should consider re-enforcing the bowlers for the next test.
I won鈥檛 hold my breath.
Complain about this postAs an englishman living downunder this hurts ,, Two chasms were highlighted today , 1- the mindset , one team came out trying to force something to happen while England just seemed to want to wait and see what happened ,,, by the time something had happened then they didn't know which way to turn , run or block ,,, how many tests will we give away due to last day lack of planning - remember the 1st test in Pakistan last year too .. Buchanen and Ponting talked of far fetched plans for victory from stumps on day 2 while England didn't seem to have positive plans for last day survival , We definately miss Vaughans mindset here and that isn't meant as a sleight on Fred . 2 - Whilst Warne bowled spitting , ripping turners all day Giles managed to get one ball to kick out of the rough and trouble Hussey and Jones who then fumbled it for byes ,,,, Who knows if the outcome would have been any better with Monty in the team but I just can't imagine the Aussies leaving say Warney out for say Cameron White (another Victorian leggy) just because he does a bit more with the bat ,,, Must be very slim odds on retaining the urn now but at least lets have our best team on the park - what was so wrong with the pace attack that devoured Pakistan and lets go out with an aggressive and positive game plan ...
Complain about this postThe two players I sorry for are Collingwood and Hoggard. Both could have won the Man of the Match award and neither did because everybody else failed in their roles.
There are some negative comments on here (and elsewhere) that Collingwood should have scored more runs and protected the tail enders more. It didn't matter a jot, I would not have bet against the Aussies chasing 250 after tea, or even 200 in 20 overs, it's only 20/20 cricket!
The team selection is wrong for a start. Giles should be out to grade cricket to practice along with Anderson, and maybe they will be match fit for the ODIs. In my opinion KP, Colly and Bell can bowl Giles overs, in comes Mahmood and Monty. Harmison needs a rocket up the proverbial and some serious practice and confidence boosting, take a leaf out of Brett Lee's book.
Flintoff needs a rest mentally and physically. Make Strauss Captain and his batting will improve with added responsiblity as will Flintoff's with less on his plate. The wicket keeping position is irrelevant and won't make the difference between winning and losing the Ashes, although if Read is deemed the better keeper then he should play. KP as usual from the sublime to the ridiculous, he will always be able make 1 as easily as 100, and will probably overtake Gooch as top run scorer in Tests. We will just have to live with his occasional self destruction.
The declaration was not really to blame as Langer was out before the close, and Ponting should have gone on 35. This would have made a massive difference, and they might have followed on. Though this could be countered by saying Flintoff should have had some batting practice, and the old adage of getting the runs on the board while the going is good, and bat them out of it.
The players who everyone claimed would struggle, Colly "not technically good enough for 4" or Hoggy "doesn't do anything without swing" were proved wrong because those guys have some grit and fight in them. They aren't always the most gifted or orthodox but fight to the end with what they've got and acheive a lot more for it. I predict they will be the best batsmen and best bowler on the tour.
The coach needs to be replaced and some fresh ideas brought in, the sooner the better, though it probably won't happen until we are out the World Cup after the first round. Get Fletcher out when the Ashes are decided (lost) and have someone new brought in for ODIs to get them blooded for the World Cup, and we may have a chance in the West Indies.
Complain about this postI am sick of the excuses handed out to Harmison, I will continue to question his involvement in the team. His bowling has been lacking for some time now and we need people who are committed. He bowls as if he has to as opposed to wanting to and meanders around the field looking lost. Get rid of deadwood, we need fighters.
Complain about this postabsolutley pathetic not worth watching. bring bak monty coz giles isnt worth a village team. i only bat but i could spin it more than giles. he also dropped the ashes wen he dropped ponting. collingwood is englands best batsman cos he wont give his wicket away unlike piterson and flintoff. bring mamhood in for anderson drop harmison and bring bak john lewis dont no y he wasnt in the squad anyways. starting 11 for perth:
Complain about this poststrauss
cook
bell
colly
piterson
flintoff (if fit, if not put bell back 2 6 cook 3 nd joyce open the batting)
read
mahmood
hoggard
lewis
monty
I was at the test and commeted to an Aussie friend at tea on sat, that Eng needed to bat as close to 2.5 days leaving a similar time to bowl the Aussies out twice.
Now I am no master tactitian but to me it was very clear.
My point is of course, that one can single out individuals but this was the key mistake in my book.
The parallel is Ponting's decision to not enforce the follow-on in Brisbane, it nearly backfired but he got away with it, unfortunately we didn't. I think the lesson for both tests is if you have the opportunity to go for the kill take-it.
Having said all of that, there is good reason why "catches win matches" and "the best form of defence is attack" have survived for so long...
so now you are confused! but seriously, irrespective of individual selections and performances, we had the opportunity to post another 150 runs when the pitch was at it's best, with full knowledge that batting on day 5 would be a no-no and we didn't take it, this is why we lost IMHO.
Complain about this postThe positive to be taken from this match is that England were well in the game for 4 days. The dramatic turn around on the fifth day shouldn't be allowed to detract from that. The team performed better than at the Gabba, and the Australian icons - Warne and McGrath looked fallible in the first innings.
The problem was that the intensity dropped on the last day. It would have been better if England had gone into day 5 with some plan to win the match, rather than draw it.
As it is, England should credit Australia with a superb display of killer instinct on day 5, learn some lessons, perhaps make some selection changes, and move on to Perth with the intention of staying in the game for all 5 days.
Complain about this postWe simply can't lose players like Vaughan, Trescothick and S. Jones from our line up and expect to play as well as we did 18 months ago. Add to that the eratic form of Harmison and G Jones and the unexplainable dropping of Panesar and you have a squad that only contains 4 or 5 of our best players who are actually in form. I bet the Australians can't belive their luck, we should have just posted the ashes in a jiffy bag if this was all the resistance we were planing to offer!
Complain about this postI feel really sorry for Hoggard, Collingwood and Pietersen, but I have to say I think it was the right result for cricket. England have been punished for Fletcher's pig-headed, defensive selection of Giles ahead of Panesar. If you go out to draw games you deserve to lose them.
I'm not saying Monty would have run through them like Warne, though he'd have been a handful in the last innings. But he would clearly have made enough difference for England not to have lost this game. Commonwealth Bank XI wouldn't have got so close on 1st innings and the game would have been safe earlier today.
Giles's job in the last innings was to bowl a good length into the rough, and he couldn't manage it. This is the crucial point - Monty is a better defensive as well as attacking bowler than Giles.
Fletcher called him the 'best finger spinner in the world' in the summer. But he'd rather have, say, the 12th best finger spinner in the world in his team. This is dumb. Giles has done good service for England in the lack of a better spinner. Well, the lack is no longer there and it's time-up for him, I'm afraid.
On the bright side, England cannot be defensive now. They have to do what they should have done from the start and pick a team to win matches. Let's try and play with a bit of enjoyment, verve and nerve. That's what KP and Colly did and look what happened.
My team for the next test, as it would have been for this one, would be:
Strauss
Complain about this postCook
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood
Flintoff*
Read
Mahmood
Hoggard
Panesar
Harmison
Ok it's bad, but don't forget "we" (ie Ian) called them Dad's Army and the Aussies like nothing better than to prove insults wrong .. in fact, they grind them into Adelaide dust. Pride please now!
Complain about this postI think it would be a good idea for the England Managements to print out this blog and get every England Player and Management to read it before the next test.
Complain about this postFletcher's conservatism has certainly been a factor. You cannot pick defensive players against Australia.
Giles, Jones, Anderson and Harmison must go. For Giles, Jones and Harmison it is the end of their test careers (Anderson will come again). Mahmood and Panesar arn't perfect solutions but they have shown a spark that the motley quartet above haven't shown for a long time.
One plus. Paul Collingwood. Even his demeanour during the Aussie "run chase" his body language was better than anybody else. Australia are excellent but they are vunerable when pressure is applied. Collingwood showed what acan be done with application, skill and character.
Complain about this postAny idea now that we can retain the ashes would be a triumph of hope over reason. The only thing to do now is prepare the team for the future. So:
Complain about this postchange the wicket keeper,
Play Monty for Giles,
Bring in Mamhood for Flintoff. At the moment, Freddy can't bat and his ankle injury prevents him from being a desicive bowler.
Make Strauss Captain.
Commentators have tried to make light of the defeat in the first Test, citing the fact that we came from 1-0 down in 2005. For me, the first Test was decisive, because it inflicted serious psychological damage on England. There is no excuse for being under-cooked. Yes, we batted very well in the first innnings of the second Test and Collingwood has stepped forward and played like a Test batsmen. We all like to be entertained but there are times when England need to knuckle down and not give their wickets away. Pieterson, magnificent in the first innings, sweeps Warne and gets out when we needed desperately to consolidate.
For me two big problems:
1. Play Panesar, he could have bowled Australia out in their second innings and emulated Warne.
2. Harmison - right now he is a passenger and that has cost England dearly. He is a great bloke but this is a tough game and a tough series. Either bowl him or drop him!
3. We need to start playing with our brains!
England must come out all guns blazing in the next Test - we do have the talent to put them under pressure. We must believe we can take it to 2-2. If we don't believe, we will be crushed 5-0, simple as that.
Complain about this postA lot of complaints here.
Yes you were pathetic, but Australia deserves a lot of credit. After England's first innings total we had our boys putting up a fight just to get close to your score .. but 500 against Oz in the first innings hardly wraps it up when you have a Ponting playing against you .
Warney can hold a bat too, can't he?
Why anyone would ever try to sledge him I'll never know, but I bet his mate Pietersen will think twice - he has but a shadow of Warnes' accomplishments.
Coming into the Ashes I feel you have so highly over-rated yourselves, why? On the back of one Ashes victory? Did it mean you were suddenly the world's top team? No, and the Aussies never believed it for a minute.
Complain about this postA bit more realism and respect for some of the greatest ever to grace the game might have averted the disgraceful shambles of this morning's nervous breakdown.
Give credit where it is due, Monty is not a Warne and Freddie, Pietersen et al. are not Macgraths or Pontings.
Horrific! Just when you think England can't get any worse.
Well at least England haven't got anything to lose in the remaining tests as the Ashes are already lost. Time to shake things up. in with Panesar and Mahmood and out with Giles and Anderson.
I am looking forward to the highlights though...I'm sure Boycott will come out with some classics in describing this abysmal performance!
Complain about this postFlintoff is a great all-round cricketer, probably one of the best of all time, but he isn't a great all-round captain. He has the ability to lead from the front as regards his bowling, but his batting just isn't consistent enough when it really matters. But most worryingly I don't think he has the tactical nous to think on his feet as circumstances and situations change (and you have to question the overall judgement of the man - have you seen that tattoo??).
This morning required the cool-headedness of a Vaughan to lead, and he needs to be back in the side for his captaincy ability if nothing else. Vaughan out-captained Ponting at every stage in 2005, but England out thought themselves here. Was the declaration correct? How to handle Harmison? What to do about the failure of the openers? Who to bowl: Giles, Panesar, Anderson or Mahmood?
I don't think Fletcher is the man to answer these questions, and because of that it could be a long winter (dreading the one-dayers already) and 4-0 or 5-0 could be on the cards.
Complain about this postSHEER PANIC AND FEAR....
The defeat was all the more shattering given the complete lack of mental resolve and down right fear shown by the English batsmen right from the openers to the tail - they folded like a pack of cards. Sheer fear of defeat and fear of Warney... seen it all before and will again!
Such a shame after competing for 4 days so well. It will be amazing if we can win any of the remaining 3 tests now.
The only consolation is that I did not take up the Sky Sports package as I had originally intended since the 麻豆官网首页入口 have the highlights and the dreaded red button for viewing highlights on 麻豆官网首页入口i. The big downside is that I am migrating to Australia next year and will be reminded of Adelaide Day 5 for a few years to come...!!!
Complain about this postit seems the england cricket team have joined
Complain about this postboth the football and rugby sides - where there seems to be no collective responsibility - the prevailing attitude amongst all 3 set-ups is -
" ah someone else will step-up to the plate and perform "
So much negativity in these comments! You Poms are complaining about the team being negative... listen to yourselves.
I thought England did well overall. I don't think they are that far away from a win and Perth is by no means a foregone conclusion.
P.S. Jonathan Agnew rocks my world.
Complain about this postThere is always one isn't there!
Complain about this postGood old Len at 87 so Giles should play instead of Panesar as he will cost us 40 odd runs in the field will he, what utter rubbish I'm afraid sir you have proved yourself to be a fool. Panesar is the best finger spinner in the world just look what he did against Pakistan on flat pitches. He also bowled very well against India/Pakistan on there flat pitches. The bloke averages 32.40 with the ball and Giles averages 40.60! Get real please!
Panesar has 8 not outs in his 13 Test innings maybe England could take a leaf out of his book.
I agree with the itinerary comment. The lack of preparation has cost England dear. In a series like this you need to hit the ground running and England did not do that.
Complain about this postCan't help but agree with the overwhelming majority re Giles/Panesar & Jones/Read (and not only with hindsight); but surely Plunkett not Mahmood for Anderson?
As the high & mighty Lord-of-all he-surveys Fletcher assures us the batsmen were not to blame, has he told anyone who is culpable when a side is bowled out for 129 with nothing to chase, after 1064 runs had been scored for the loss of 16 wickets (that's an average of 64.5 per wicket - exactly half England's 2nd innings total)?
The selector/s or coach perhaps?
Anyone know what Owais Shah is doing for Christmas?
Complain about this postWe need to be honest, like the Austarlians were last year and accept that we just aren't good enough at the moment. However we are essentially a good team and by reversing a few poor selection decisions we can again move forward if not save the Ashes.
Panesar should be in and Giles dropped. Flintoff is on the way to being a legend but Strauss is a better captain until Vaughan is fit. Finally Mahmood should be playing instead of Anderson espcially as Harmison is improving in consistency if not yet potency. This is no slight on any of the above mentioned players. However we need the best guys on the pitch doing the right jobs.
Complain about this postYes England collapsed and were beaten.
This is not the end of the world!
England has discovered some great talent which are now the backbone of the team with Bell, Cook, Collingwood aand Petersen.
Hoggard and Flintoff were great and Harmison improved but had no luck on a tough pitch.
Australia is the best team in the world and has won every Test this year, so being beaten is not a reason to throw our half the team.
yes bring in Panesar but Jones has kept very well and batted well in the first innings.
If Englands panics it really will be all over
Complain about this postOne thing worth asking. Why didn't England smash the Aussies around in the last 5-10 overs of the first innings? We should have used the 4 remaining wickets to get the total up to around 600 which would still have left the same amount of time to bowl at the Aussie openers as we did. Poncing around for 30 minutes was stupid.
Everyone I spoke to after it was known that Giles was in the team and not Panesar thought it was negative and wrong. Good bye Fletch. It all smacks of the England Rugby debacle post World Cup. Indecision, poor selection, poor management, poor captaincy etc. Get it sorted for the sake of the coutry's morale.
Having said all that, no one died so let's look forward to a fight back in Perth!
Complain about this postThis could be devestating for the young English side. Australia will take this win and use it to hammer home the advantage that they are a) still by far and away the best and most accomplished side in the world today b) highly unlikely to yield into making the same foolish mistake as in 2005*
Complain about this postEngland were well and truely beaten today by the world's greatest cricket team. The timid nature of the England batting under pressure today should not be ignored. The Aussie side does NOT give an inch anymore, England please take note!!!
*Refer back to Egbaston and captain's winning of the toss decision!
Andrew Flintoff is a world class cricketer, but not a world class captain. If Vaughn is anywhere near fit enough to last 5 days, he needs to come in as captain - even if he has no runs behind him. Anyone remember the Brearley effect in 81?
Complain about this postTo say I am shocked and saddened by what England did today would an understatement. I sent in a comment on the third day of the Brisbane Test in which I avoided the obvious selection failures but focussed on the need for some guts and attitude from England. I was rewarded by Collingwood and Kp who did the business there and again here with Hoggard helping out as well. However come the second innings KP has a rush of blood to the head and all his good work from the first innings is undone.
What a disaster and what a sad state of affairs that we can lose against the aussies in such a disasterous fashion. Unfortunately the rest of the series does not look good either, as Fletcher will succumb to the quite correct demands for Monty and Chris Read to be brought in. Which will place huge demands on their shoulders to perform. If Monty or Read fail they will be hung out to dry and the mgt will look smug. The neccesary change of selection will also completely destroy Jones and Giles who have not performed but who should never have been picked in the first place and were merely built up to take a fall and so they have. If Giles, a thoroughly good man but a limited test bowler, plays test cricket after this I would be surprised.
In two tests we have systematically torn apart England's chance of beating the aussies. We are good but man to man we are not as good as the Aussies so we relied very much on the mental battle and we lost that on day one at Brisbane. We had a slim chance to get it back here but instead we slipped further behind and that is a shameful reflection on English Cricket.
We should have played Read and Monty from Day one ..but we did not. With Freddie just coming back from an injury he was not the best person to captain the team so we should have gone with Strauss, no great captain himself but he could handle the captaincy better than Freddie in these circumstances...but we did not. Harmison should have been prepared to within an inch of his life at Brisbane as so much relied on his first over which even the assies accepted from last year. ....but he was not!
Where do we go from here ???? Well I think we have to accept we have managed this series terribly and that the future careers of a number of key players ...Jones, Giles, Flintoff, Harmison, Panesar and Read may be in jeppary because of some appalling decisions by mgt and the captain alike.
As for me I will be supporting England 100% again in Perth as I always do but my hopes and dreams are somewhat less than they were two days ago.
Complain about this postWhat is all this tosh about terrible play? I think that the home team played absolutely marvellously. You are watching masters at work people! Don't blame the England team - just watch and enjoy one of the greatest teams of all time at work.
And to the Barmy Army - errr, You're not singing anymore...
Complain about this posthow many times and how many people have got to say it: pick the best side to thier strengths !
ie: Monty Panasar.
Brian Clough won two European Championships with Forest by picking people who knew thier tasks, and concentrating on what they were good at.
Complain about this postchoosing Giles ahead of Monty as spinner because of his batting is akin the great manager putting Birtles between the sticks instead of Shilton!
I will make a prediction:
Strauss, Cook, Bell, Collingwood, Pietersen, Jones, Flintoff, Giles, Harmison, Hoggard, Anderson will start at Perth. its not what we want, but what do we know ?
All too predictable I'm afraid. Under pressure England just do not have what it takes. It was a terrific performance by Australia but nothing can disguise a lamentable display. Surely, surely, the time has come for Fletcher to cease showing his unwarranted faith in a number of these players who continually fail when the chips are down. Flintoff is a terrific player but just not captain material. His man management seems poor. Compare the body language running through the entire team now to that when Vaughan is captain.
Complain about this postPanesar = Cant bat, Cant field
Complain about this postGiles = Cant bowl, Cant bat, Cant field
Oops! well spoken - forgot to congratulate the Aussies. well done.
Complain about this postJeoff Keogh - you prove my point perfectly about a nation graceless in victory with a chip on its shoulder. There are few, if any, sour grapes on here - merely a lot of very disappointed England fans pouring over the very obvious failings of their own team, rather than looking for excuses elsewhere. The sour grapes are in your head, and unbelievably you are still rattling on about umpiring decisions from last summer - you just can't let it go, can you? In your hour of victory you are still bitter, and in your moment of triumph I pity you
Complain about this postI realise that key players are missing due to injury, etc. but what else does England expect when the wrong team is picked from among those that are available? An innocuous spinner who can't take wickets and a bumbling wicketkeeper who frequently misses key catches and stumpings are selected, bizarrely, not primarily to bowl or to wicketkeep but because they are allegedly able to bat -- but neither scores any runs or even holds up one end! It's obvious to everybody else in the world that Fletcher has his favourites and that Panesar and Read should be in the team. A captain who is already the mainstay of the bowling and hugely important to the batting but not particularly good as a tactician or doing much beyond inspiring morale is asked to shoulder this extra respionsibility. Why do selectors all over the world persist in going for the best player as captain? Strauss would have been a much better choice in the absence of Vaughan. Warne has a point -- England have a defeatist attitude and have picked a team not in order to win but to merely avoid defeat. The Australians are going to win the series 5-0 if Fletcher (and Flintoff) continue to pick their favourites. The English selectors back home should intervene before two defeats turn into an absolute rout!
Complain about this postThe personnel is not the issue. Who would play instead of Anderson and Giles? Monty, yes, but Mahmood? The bowlers did not lose this game for England.
What lost them the game was their mentality. Having dominated a test for over 3 days, and at 97 ahead with 9 wickets in hand on a featherbed, having played Warne reasonably comfotably last night, England should have woken up this morning thinking of getting to lunch 190 ahead, batting for another hour and leaving Australia about 35 overs to chase 250. The chances of winning would have been very slim, but they would have had a chance to get to Hayden and Martyn, and go to Perth with a 'winning draw' and Australia on the backfoot. That would have only needed scoring at about 3 an over, something England managed throughout the test. For some reason they were more concerned about avoiding an unlikely defeat than making the most of their colossal advantage. This England side never knew it was beaten in 2003-2005. Now all of a sudden it started to give too much respect to an adversary that was exhausted and demoralised at the start of play today. The negative attitude is exactly what Australia pounced on.
England should have told themselves that they were Australia's equals (if not betters) this morning. That attitude won them the Ashes. For some reason they lost their self-belief and fell back into cowardly habits that cost them in the late 90's and in other big collapses (Pakistan at Old Trafford 2001). Unfortunately, the chances of that self belief being regained in the next 3 weeks look slim.
Complain about this postEngland must drop Giles and Anderson. Harmison can consider himself lucky that Perth is historically a fast track. Two tests now and these three players have failed to make a contribution. Although Ashley Giles did well to drop Ponting!
Duncan Fletcher must show he is prepared to drop underperforming players. The whole nation wants Panesar to play. Please England get angry and seek revenge at Perth.
Complain about this postIts the old boys network at work again. Duncan obviously has his favorite players and Monty is definatly not one of them !!
I think Giles might be though. Shocking performance by all concerned !
Complain about this postI am not going to offer any excuses for the performance today, to lose the test from that position is totaly unforgivable.
But lets not forget that Australia are still a great side, if anybody could have pulled that victiry off it could only have been Australia in Oz. Similarly it would probably only have been England that would have capitualted in that way from that position!
I wish people would stop balming Giles and Jones, it is not their fault they are selected, it is Fletcher - if he selected me I would be on the plane in a flash, freshly pressed white in hand.... Maybe that is not a bad idea.... where did I leave my box......?
Complain about this postThe last time we played out here we got stuffed carrying to many out of form, injured or not good enoughs! So here we are
Issue 1 Flintoff is not a captain - should be Strauss!
Complain about this postIssue 2 Flintoff has not played enough cricket!
issue 3 Giles can't spin a cricket ball!
issue 4 Giles has not played for ages!
Issue 5 Harmison has not played enough!
Issue 6 if the top order fails then giles will not get you a century - play Panesar!
issue 7 Anderson is average!
Issue 8 TOO MANY ISSUES!!
Australia didn't win this match, England lost it. We need (dare I say it?) a Boycott or Tavare to anchor the innings at the top and avoid the House of Cards collapse when the pressure is on. Warne's performance highlights the mistake in leaving Panesar out. Depending on the wicket at Perth, Monty could come in for Harmison whose form and hang dog body language must impact negatively on team confidence and morale. A strike bowler who doesn't strike is as helpful as a chocolate hammer.
Complain about this posthi all,have to say if Hussey had played in England when these sides last met I think Australia would be the ones who would be playing to retain the ashes.He is the difference this time.cheers poms
Complain about this postOk it's bad, but don't forget "we" (ie Ian) called them Dad's Army and the Aussies like nothing better than to prove insults wrong .. in fact, they grind them into Adelaide dust. Pride please now!
Complain about this postAs an Australian - I think England played into our hands.
Firstly England should have a lead of much more than 38.
Even so Englands batting on the final morning was woeful 4/30 from 27 overs. If they had scored 30 or 40 more the chase would have been too large for Australia.
England didnt know what to do and Australia just threw everything into getting an unlikely win
England celebrate Edgbaston 2005 - Australia celebrates Adelaide 2006!!!
One thing this test has shown us all - never give up no matter how bad the situation is.
Complain about this postGood old England - great to see they're still completely at sea when Warne is spinning his magic! The biggest ego of them all, Kevin Pietersen, helping us to victory with a woeful attempted sweep off his first delivery to Warne and then a comical overthrow late in the piece that went for four runs just at the time England needed someone to show a steady hand.
Leave the urn on the mantlepiece on your way home - we'll look after it from now on
Complain about this postwhat a laughing stock! As much as i would like to have faith and believe this england side may pull it off in the next test after the last performance i can't see it happening unless there is an act of god or aggers opens the bowling!!
Complain about this postRt
Aussies have England scared now.
Although England have the team (although not ideal re certain selections & injuries) to win, that's not relevant now.
You can be sure that when the Aussies snif victory, they will go for the kill. The sledging & arrogant displays will now go up a gear, not down. That's how they think.
Complain about this postLets just give the Aussies the ashes now and save embarassment and expense by bringing the 'team' home now. I don't mind getting beat by a better team,but at least put up a fight and play with a bit of pride.
Complain about this postWhy, oh why did we declare in the first innings, just to have a few overs at them at the end of the day? Flintoff and Giles were going well, we should have put 600+ on the board and then really put the pressure on them to follow on.
Complain about this postTo be fair did anyone honestly think we were gonna bring the ashes home?
The aussies feel they owe us one big time and are determined to win them back. I just hope we can somehow rally and not get destroyed 5.0.
That was the most gutless display I have ever seen from an England side and to be fair there have been some horror shows over the years.
Are Jones, Anderson and Giles really good enough to wear the 3 Lions. Fletcher has done an outstanding job but his team selection now is a joke
Complain about this postVote Ramps off Strictly Come Dancing and send him out.He is very fit, coordinated and wants to win!!!
Complain about this postThis may seem odd but this shocking defeat could be a good thing!
If it prompts the team to clear the table and reconsider every tactic and every selection and every attitude it would have been worth it.
This way there can be no half-hearted defence of a draw. The team now have to attack Australia with everything they have and disregard any notion that a draw is acceptable.
If it means that Flintoff drops the captaincy, that there will be 3 or 4 changes, that the team plays with real fire in the next test for a win, then it will have been worth it.
What have they got to lose?
Complain about this postI can't decide whether I am angry or upset. I think both, Fletcher as coach has to take responsibility for this and realise that Giles shoudl never have been allowed to play let alone be on the plan. Anderson is a good bowler but has just come back from injury and needs time to finsh remodelling his swing so why play any of them??
My problem with the tail is that surely if our top order have failed then it is going to make very little differnce if Jones and Giles get their usual 10 runs. Instead have a bowler who can get wickets- Monty!!
One more slightly controvesial point- has anyone thought about including Stuart Broad in the squad, he may be young but he reminds me of a younger version of Clarke or that old boy Glen. Line and length will always work in any conditions.
I think it will be 4-1 to Australia!!
Complain about this postSo Fletcher defends his team selection! How can he possibly 'defend' that rubbish??!! He must surely acknowledge that vital wrong decisions in team selection and on-pitch stategy have gone a very long way to putting England in the position they are currently in.
A shadow of the team that played and won so well in 2005.
Complain about this postThe Dads Army comment was about the best incentive you could give the Aussies. Experience will beat incompetence, any time. Better put the champagne back in the cellar and send the open top bus back. It will be a long time before you need it again.
Complain about this postAn absolute disgrace, an embarassment and all players should hide their eyes in shame. Team selections etc etc - this is broadly the same set of players who won the ashes!! Total lack of belief!!
It was just the spineless nature of the play that was so gut wrenchingly terrible.
They have to sort that out, tweaking with Panasaar here, Giles there will not help.
They need to sort their heads out.
PS Phil Tailor for Sports Personality!!
Complain about this postMy God. I live with an Australian, who I've not yet seen and don't want to now. I might move out.
Duncan Fletcher needs to be Fired for this, WHY wasn't Monty Playing?? I'm ashamed to be English today.
Alex, Balham.
Complain about this postWhat Went Wrong?
Complain about this postSome days before during the first test I commented about the preparations and quality of players for english side. Well sadly enough the same were vindicated during the today's debacle. Some questions needs answering
1. Why a lack of motivation and sense of inevitibility persisting in the team.
2. Why instead of being positive and proud holders of ASHES we were defensive and alomost apologetic in responding to Australlians both on and off the ground
3. What was the role of coach and management for formulating the strategy for the final day
4. Didn't they knew that on the last day there were only two possible results; draw or defeat for England
I don't see the team going anywhere from here. Its time for introspection and changing the approach once for all to an all out aggressive style which was epitomized by West Indians in 70s and 80s and Australlians in 90s and the current dacade
I'm neither Aussie or English or even British. So, I believe I'm truly impartial. Here goes:
In reality, the 2005 Ashes win was a fluke. In fact, it was the Mother of All Flukes. To think of it as anything else was just plain folly.
On the back of this folly, everybody went balistic: Open-top bus ride, all the singing, the MBEs to EVERY member of the team & the greatest sporting accolade of all, Freddie winning the Beeb's Sports personality of the year.
Now the chickens have come home to roost & everyone's paying for the folly. And it hurts quite a lot, doesn't it?
Here's my advice for the future:
Keep your feet on the ground & be humble. There'll always be a time/chance to look back & enjoy your triumphs. Having an open top bus ride AFTER you've won it in Ausstralia as well would have felt so much better than the FLUKE of 2005.
Will you people (team,supporters, media etc) never ever learn? Then you will keep getting disappointed.
Complain about this post"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of dropping men and starting fresh
Send Harmison, Giles et al away
Give Panesar, Saj Mahmood and Reid the chance to play"
"But wait a bit," the Ozzies cried,
"Before you all try that;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!"
"No hurry!" said the Fletcherman.
They thanked him much for that!!!
"A breath of life," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Passion and attitude besides
Are very good indeed--
Now if you're ready, Ozzies dear,
We can begin to feed."
Complain about this postLet's hope that Fletcher at Flintoff bite the bullet - 2 nil down there's no point NOT taking risks now!
That defeat absolutely shattered me. having listened to commentry all night on 5 live sports extra i was shocked at how the days play unfolded. I'm still shocked by it. Inept. Tactically naive. And extreamly perplexing why they would go out without the intention to put on some runs. the whole point is they could easily been bowled out by tea having 250 on the board and no way would the aussies have caught us. instead they were absolute muppets. Even collingwood who played so well in theory cannot be removed from blame as at no time did he try and add some runs. the aussie bowling was not strong it was a case of nerves, poor shot choices and simply poor tactics on the last day. It's just unbelievable they lost!
Complain about this postThere seems to be a problem with English sport at the moment in that we seem to have forgotten that to win we need to perform to our best until the final whistle. Neither four days of excellent performance against Australia in Adelaide nor 30 minutes of good rugby against South Africa at Twickenham will win matches against strong competitive and disciplined sides.
Complain about this postServes them right for being totally unprepared and for a negative test selection from the outset. This only served to signal our defensive strategy from the day the first test selection was made.
Complain about this postI have to agree with Michael and Nigel (most recent posts) - Fletcher has to take full blame for this shocking defeat and his selection policy has been all wrong from the start. Why leave out Panesar after a fabulous summer taking all those wickets against Pakistan than play Giles "Over the Hill King of Spin" (yeah right?!) who hasn't played a single game for the past year? Panesar, Read and possibly Plunkett/Mahmood to come in for Giles, G Jones and Anderson.
Complain about this postVaughan's leadership skills are seriously missed also.
Freddie and Fletcher's refusal to publicly criticise their batsmen beggars belief. If they really believe what they're saying in public then it's denial on a truly staggering scale. I can well understand the desire to support and stay loyal to teammates and colleagues -- but this attempt to deny the blindingly obvious is ludicrous in the extreme.
Starting to agree with the view that Vaughan is needed back ASAP.
You could argue, I think, that Fletcher's success has always come in tandem with strong captains i.e. Hussein and Vaughan. It's difficult to avoid the conclusion that team selection has been flawed to some extent and that choice of tactics at certain key moments has been lacking -- maybe needs a strong character in place as captain to stand up to and add balance to Fletcher's somewhat entrenched and dubious views.
Complain about this postIt's very easy to blame the batsmen for failing for the second time in four innings. On the pitches at Bribane and Adelaide, there's no way England should have been blown away as they were. But, for me, the real root of the problem stems in a tired, stale bowling attack which has never looked like driving England to victory.
Duncan Fletcher brought a great deal to English cricket when he first joined in 1999, and has built up a good team. But just as Alex Ferguson at Manchester United knew when to dismantle a great side, so should Fletcher have realised that the last England team peaked last Summer. Trescothick, Giles and Geraint Jones should have been wiped from the team sheet and the young guns given a chance. Panesar, Read and even Mahmood should have been given a chance. It would have been a much more aggressive selection - after all, if you can't bowl Austrailia out for under 500 how do you ever expect to win?
I suppose Fletcher will throw them in the proverbial deep end at Perth, into a depressed and dispondent team facing a whitewash. That will be great for their confidence, I'm sure. Fletcher has transformed England into one of the best teams in the world, but if he persists in selecting his favourites all his work will come undone. Either he wakes up to this, or he should go.
Complain about this postI blame the selectors. I said when the squad was announced months ago that our bowling attack was really risky, as it contained 2 bowlers who had barely bowled for a year, one who was on his way back from injury, and another who was short of confidence. What's the point in batting at number 8 if you cannot take Aussie wickets, Mr Fletcher? Play your match winners, so that means Monty, and play people who are consistent, full of confidence, in form, and can rarely be dominated on test match wickets, so that means Mr J Lewis.
Complain about this postThere is always one isn't there!
Complain about this postGood old Len at 87 so Giles should play instead of Panesar as he will cost us 40 odd runs in the field will he, what utter rubbish . Panesar is the best finger spinner in the world just look what he did against Pakistan on flat pitches. He also bowled very well against India/Pakistan on there flat pitches. The bloke averages 32.40 with the ball and Giles averages 40.60! Get real please!
Panesar has 8 not outs in his 13 Test innings maybe England could take a leaf out of his book!
As a fellow Prestonian, I feel sorry for Freddie, but Giles should not have been in the team. He could not turn a corner never mind a cricket ball, and has probably lost us the Ashes when he dropped Ponting, never mind this tepid display of spin bowling.
The stage is (surely) set for Monty!
Complain about this postI think we should stick with the current side for the following 10 reasons:
1. They are dynamic- they make things happen.
2. Dunc our leader thinks they are great.
3. Why pick the side that were excellent through the summer, when you can have a team that has three players who haven't played for over a year.
4. Jones is a great batsman, as he has proved through the year. Form is temporary and class is permnant. And Jones is class.
5. If we pick a defensive side and go into the last three test 0-0 we have a chance.......sorry we are 2-0 nil down already...oh should have had more warm-up games.......never mind eh?
6. Imagine bringing in Monty now.......the Australians on a high would destroy him, although he still probably would be more effective than Giles.
7. Also I just want to know why when England's seamers through the series incapable of bowling anywhere but wide outside off stump, suddenly decided to bowl wicket to wicket in the last innings.
8. Flintoff is such a nice guy and he works so hard, we can't upset him, he must remain captain. Bless he always does as dunc says, such a good boy.
9. JA are you really best friends with dunc?
10. If we all write to JA maybe could tell Dunco that we don't think this bowling side can take 20 aussie wickets, really after that the number 8 batting slot becomes academic.
11. Why change this team when they obviously seem to have the bottle to fight, except for the "one terrible hour".
Anyone disagree?
c'mon the lads!!
Complain about this postWhat happened to the England from last year's Ashes? While they won narrowly in the end, they were the dominant team and it would have been a travesty had Australia managed to square the series and keep the trophy.
These are some of the things that are wrong this series.
1. Negative selections - if you need bits and pieces players to cover for your batsmen, you need to get new batsmen.
2. You have operated so far on basically 3 batsmen (Bell, Pieterson and Collingwood) and 2 bowlers (Flintoff and Hoggard). Thats never going to beat Australia.
3. Obviously something wrong with the preparation. What excuse is there for a team in the biggest contest in years basically not being ready to play from day 1 of test 1?
I think Australia's a good thing to win 4-0 or maybe 5-0 (I suspect England could jag a draw somewhere). Can't see Panesar ripping through Australia's batting, and remember that Anderson was picked over Saj Mahmood for showing better form in the early tour games, and we can see how dangerously Anderson has bowled. Jones/Read - don't know anything about Read so couldn't say if he'd make a difference. Anyway, its not like he's going to stump England to victory!
Complain about this postWhat a great game - and everyone was saying Australia were too old and finished. It would appear that the series is all but over....for England.
Still laughing all the way to the bank re Giles and Jones selections. Bled runs, dropped catches, the works! I hope they keep their place for the Perth Test.
Ponting, Hussey and Warne were the difference. Great to see Clarke and Gilly back in form too. Ominous signs for England.
Complain about this postSo I presume Giles was picked ahead of Panesaar to score 28 runs, take two wickets and drop the best batsmen in the world - genius!
Complain about this postIts time for super Monty. Ths stage is set for Monty to get 30 wickets in the remaining 3 matches. I predict he will hit the winning runs in the last match, smashing a six off Warne to get the ashes. Just you wait and see, you saw it here first.
Flaetcher should be asked to leave if he refuses to bring in Monty and Mahmood for next 3 matches.
Complain about this postI England were worried about the batting line up, why did they play Anderson? For me they would have been better playing Mahmood instead of Anderson (therefore strengthening the batting) and then as everyone else has already said, Panesar instead of Giles! Then you get the best of both worlds, a longer batting line-up and a more attacking bowling attack.
Complain about this postFrom the selection of the team on day one of this test series, leaving Monty and Chris Read out, Flectcher has shown us that he and all the others involved in selection have failed to look forward to the future, and instead are languishing in our past glory.
Complain about this postIt seems to be a British trait, that we always try to fall back on the old guard, has-beens, and some that never were to start with, rather than follow what everyone who knows something about cricket can see for themselves, and pick a youthfull and promising group for the future.
Come on guys, get with the forcast !!
Aggers and Vic.
Complain about this postGuys, the coverage is fantastic, you all do the best job. Although a Scot, my chums and I warmed to Engerland ever since Nasser began to put a bit of bite into the side a few moons back.
However, Vic Marks continues to tell us that "Monty is only mechanical" What does that make The King of Spain then???
Aggers is saying this game should've been dead and buried as a DRAW by mid afternoon. You all scoffed at the Australians saying throughout that they could win the game and you guys, with a healthy lead going into a day 5 pitch are saying "we can only lose it from here" Why didn't you try and get a lead of 260 and try and bowl them out they way they do to you?
Shocker and a shame. That game was there to be taken by the scruff of the neck.
So long Jones, Ashley and Anderson. Freddie probably injured, who'se going to bowl now, Aggers and Vic??
Fontwell 12:40 - 1st No 8 Warne's Way @ 9/2
Fontwell 1:40 - Wouldn't recommend backing No.3 Flintoff
Complain about this postDad's Army
Who do you think you are kiddng Mr Flintoff
If you think you'll keep the urn
These Aussie boys are winning all the games
These Aussie boys the Ashes will regain
So who do you think you are kidding Mr Flintoff
If you think you'll keep the urn
Mr Warne goes out to bowl in the midday sun
Complain about this postAnd by the fifth evening another test match he has won
So who do you think you are kidding Mr Flintoff
If you think you'll keep the urn
Unbelievable!
Can Lazarus rise from these Ashes? Only if a SERIOUS look is taken at the captain, and the bowling unit. The batters CAN bat.
But all this nonsense of playing unfit generalists versus real specialists ( = Panesar, Read and probably Mahmood for Harmisson; Anderson did OK) MUST END. Let Flintoff play cricket, he's good at that, if he's fit! But he is not fit to be captain. Let Strauss do the worrying and strategizing - he's good at that. (And before anyone says I'm being a negative POM, I've been saying these positive things from before the tour.) And forget Vaughan dreams this series. His mind can still guide Strauss (if need be, but probably not needed.)
Those are my thoughts from USA.
Complain about this postThe cold fact is that we were lucky to win the Ashes last summer, and are now being found out by a vastly superior team - after being found out by "so called" weaker teams in the summer.
Complain about this postIf every remembers, there was no "Why are Giles & Jones in the team" last summer was there ?
The simple truth is that we are not good enough - either in talent or mental toughness.
Pietersen is a chancer, who will either make 100 or be out for a duck. Cook & Bell are sadly lacking & the bowling is terrible.
Can anyone actually see us bowling out Australia for less than 500 in any test match ?
Sorry, but it's going to be either 4 or 5-0 this time around.
Nail in the coffin for Test cricket
It鈥檚 an absolute disgrace that England couldn鈥檛 secure the draw at Adelaide. I am livid, having looked forward to this series for over a year 鈥 I am visiting Australia for the first time to watch the last two matches which will now almost certainly be meaningless. I DESERVE AN APPOLOGY for poor team selection (no Panesar for goodness sake) poor preparation and poor performance.
On top of this our failure to compete in this series spells disaster for Test cricket (the only form of international cricket worth watching). This series should have been a spectacle of sport, instead it鈥檚 turning into a one sided hiding. The grounds will be empty next summer!
Complain about this postUnproffessional and pathetic, but we all knew that collapse was a possibilty. thats what makes a declaration od 551-6 at the least foolish and definitely risky. 1400 runs is the average total number of runs scored in a test match, half of that is 700, why declare 150 short of that total. It doesn't matter when you score those runs, and surely its better to bat when the pitch is at its best. Make the Aussies bat when the pitch is falling apart on last few days, not our players who can never seem to apply themselves for a full five days.
Complain about this postBy declaring all we did was give the Aussies a glimmrer of a chance, if we had batted on and scored another 50 or so, there could have only been two possibly results, probably a draw, but also a good chance of an England win. We would have needed Monty to put lots of overs in, but would at least have removed an aussie win from the equation. Basically bad captaincy and management.
The Aussies certainly wouldn't have declared on a total giving us the faintest chance, well they didn't in the first test (602-9), so in less than a fortnight our team had forgoten the demolarising effect that declaration had on them. We missed a great opportunity to knock them down and keep them down for whole five days. Again bad captaincy, bad tactics, bad team selection, (need a proper spinner on dead pitch). Anyway my grans available for the next test if you need her Mr Fletcher.
Surely Fletcher will make major changes for the next test.
At least Giles out (and plane home), then Panesar in.
Even consider Vaughan in, perhaps to replace a bowler (Anderson?) - in bid to try and help with the mindgame, which indeed seemed key here: what a world of difference in attitude of England team between summer 2005 and this series so far.
Just read of Vaughan to play 3 one-day matches in 4 days; if he holds up, surely consider - and let Freddie get on with being an all-rounder who's one of few players who can scare the Aussies.
Blaming players is fine and fair - as some comments note. But also, Fletcher's decision to pick Giles over Panesar was widely seen as mistake before ball bowled. And after THAT dropped catch, plus being a spinner who barely span (and barely pitched into rought exploited by Warne) and a batsman who didn't bat too much, and not when it most counted - well, I won't be buying a King of Spain mug just now.
Complain about this postEven Flintoff over Strauss as captain seemed questionable to me.
Where do you start !! The only comfort I can draw is that this might turn attention to where it is needed - Fletcher!! How can we leave out a genuine cricketer in Monty for Giles? This concept that you have to be able to bat and field is an obsession that is damaging our performance now and the psychology of Monty and any other young player who struggles with one aspect of the game. Oh, and why is Harmison playing - could somebody please explain.
Complain about this postThere is no need to panic, simply because it is pointless to do so. But this result does call for drastic action. I'm not sure that Fletcher should be sacked right now, unless, that is, he stands in the way of immediate change.
He should, however, pay for his absurd inconsistency - one minute Monty is the 鈥渂est finger spinner in the world鈥 (an over-statement, but nevertheless, that鈥檚 what Fletcher said) and Chris Read is rightly keeping wicket. The next moment both are watching from the sidelines. This makes England look not only negative, without faith in their specialist to do what they specialise in, but also plain stupid. And yes Aggers, it would have made a difference even at Brisbane. Panesar can tie batsman down at 2.5 runs per over and nick wickets on flat pitches 鈥 Anderson was utterly useless with the ball and can鈥檛 bat either.
Flintoff clearly cannot handle the captaincy and Strauss ought to relieve him of that burden now. Stuart Broad should be brought in from the Academy (he is already in Perth). Tall, fast, accurate - and he can bat - he was always a better option than Mahmood. But - in light of Harmison and Anderson鈥檚 wayward and ineffective bowling - Giles shouldn鈥檛 be punished for dropping a tough chance and being what he is 鈥 an average bowler and a decent number 8.
The Perth team should be as follows: Srauss (capt), Cook, Bell, Collingwood, Pieterson, Flintoff, Read, Giles, Broad, Hoggard, Panesar.
Here鈥檚 hoping.
Complain about this postThere is no doubt in my mind that we are badly missing Michael Vaughan's captaincy. Whilst Flintoff is an excellent cricketer and potentially a great one, I believe that Vaughan's experience guile and man-management skills would have secured us victory here.
Clearly there will need to be changes and I agree with Aggers that the apparent paralysis that we witnessed on the first day of the last Test and again today, was alarming.
Complain about this postThe winning of the toss has been the key event in both of these games. As has the deployment of bowlers. The Aussies have been sure to back up their bowlers with excellent fielding strategy to apply pressure.
We have to bowl them out twice and work out how apply pressure. Harmison is close to being a busted flush. Anderson is not a Test level bowler and we need our new, hungry crop of bowlers to be given a chance - just look at how good Clark has been for them.
England needs everyone to have the consistency and commitment of Hoggard and Collingwood.
And how dear was the Giles missed catch....it was worth the test.
Complain about this postHi all
Thanks for providing the greatest game of cricket I have ever seen. What a comeback!
Where have you been old England? We've missed you!
HAR!
Complain about this postHmmmm... Yes England are back to thier Best. Lose a game after dominating are being in comfort zone almost 80 % of the Test match. I am amazed MONTY is not playing. He would have done a far better job than Giles. Atleast he would have not let all those runs go by. All i can Say is MONTY MONTY MONTY. Atleast this would have given them a chance to draw the match. Now its uphill and England are just going to go downhill.
Complain about this postThis was absolutely disgraceful.
Complain about this postFor a team with the whole country behind them, to put up a pathetic performance like this may just make people lose interest now!!
you thoroughly deserved it England.now you can go to the streets to celebrate like you did last year.hahahahahahaha.
Complain about this postcomplete and utter rubbish. pathetic effort by england on the last day. the display of cricket is mirrored by the selection policy - spineless.
monty in for giles. its about time some serious questions are asked about fletcher. we need to bowl them out twice and you'd think that fletch would know this by now.
Complain about this postEveryone has an opinion on who should be replaced in the team but it appears Boycott was right a month ago... get rid of Fletcher! How he can stand by his decision selecting Giles is beyond me. Be brave Duncan and just admit you got your team selection wrong. Your stubbornness has cost England the Ashes...
Complain about this postYou better put that open top bus away for another couple of years yet chaps!
Once again England have been found wanting when there was a call for assuredness, calmness and the need to be assertive in key moments of test matches in recent times.
Yes, one may argue that the team showed these charachteristics for the most part in 2004/2005 but a great cricketing team is not judged on 2 seasons of cricket and 1 Ashes victory, unfortunately.
Heads up though, the old bones that make up Dad's Army will surely not be able to keep this up for another 3 tests, hereby ensuring, that delirium and faint hopes are extended until the first bowl is bowled to second slip in Perth!
Complain about this postHey Jonathan, The need of the Hour for England is Jose Mourinho. Check if he is Available.
Complain about this postAs an Australian, I can only think the Adelaide result is a belated cosmic payback for our loss at Headingly in 1981.
I know how you feel - losing a Test when it seemed impossible. But Headingly was worse, because it should have been won by Australia, whereas Adelaide should have been drawn.
It'll be bloody hard for England to retain the Ashes now, but there's always hope for you.
Complain about this postWasn't this the same team that was feted as potential world champions, the 'best side in the world' and given MBE's?
If that's the case, can I put forward Warnie for a knighthood? It seems you love giving out gongs at the drop of a hat, I don't see why this should be any different. He is a commonwealth citizen after all.
Oh, well...looks like poeple are departing the 'ashes bandwagon' on droves, and who would blame them.
If you need a parking space, there's room right next to the one you vacated after the Rugby world cup win.
Complain about this postI am due to fly out with 5 others for Melbourne and Sydney tests, at this rate it looks like it could be all over.
Complain about this postDuncan Fletchers decision to bring in Giles and Anderson is absolutely appalling, Mahmood and Panesar have played all summer and have been two of Englands best bowlers. Fletcher is sending out the message to them, that he doesn't have faith in their ability, so why take them.
Would the Australians pick players that have missed 12 months of cricket and then let them use test matches to get back into form?
Its time to get rid of all these sports psychcologists, dieticians, pr guru's and all the other chinless wonders riding on the back of Englands test team, tell the players to roll their sleeves up and stand up and be counted.
Frederick Seward Trueman how we need you know
An absolutely disgraceful performance. At an international level English cricket has terminal decay that must be arrested now.
Without leadership from the very top at Board level everything below will suffer. The current members of the Test and County cricket board must accept resposibility and there needs to be some resignations at that level.
The present selection arrangements are clearly not working and have to be changed so that the most productive players are chosen and only those that are fit and in form.The lack of match fitness and skill shortages displayed in this match demand that a different approach is adopted.
Complain about this postEngland lost the Ashes at the very moment that Giles dropped Ponting on 35.
Fletcher is both spineless and idiotic for choosing Giles over Pannesar when he has hardly played all year.
Complain about this postWill they be rushing out a DVD of this Ashes series like they did last year?
As an England fan, I can't wait to savour, once again, Harmison's first ball in Brisbane, Gile's dropped catch in Adelaide, and of course, the seven runs off one balls in today's display.
Will they title it 'The Greatest Anti-climactic Test Series Ever'? Or maybe 'Fletcher and his mates Entertain'?
I just hope that right before Fletcher resigns, he is preceded by whichever ECB pen-pusher decided not to bother renewing Troy Cooley's contract for three years. I think England's self-belief evaporated that day and Fletcher lost any faith in even drawing the series.
One man can make a difference. but sometimes it's not the one you see out front....
Complain about this postThe selection of Geraint Jones as a wicket keeper batsmen over Chris Read continues to be an absolute disgrace. His batting is totally devoid of application and his wicket keeping is no more than park cricket class. One of Fletchers favourites he may be, but one of the England cricket fans favourites he certainly is not. Ashley Giles mastery of the none-turning ball continues to delight thousands of Pom bashing Australians. Could he not delight the English and ask Fletcher to leave him out of the next Test Match in favour of Monty Panesar, on the grounds that he accidentally hit a stone in the wicket and moved one of his deliveries off straight? Get a grip Fletcher and start picking our cricketers on merit. Mr Read and Mr Panesar deserve to be shown some respect.
Complain about this postFletcher seems to have peaked in his capacity as English coach. Not to say that he hasn't done a good job so far but the now the team needs fresh ideas and a new direction. He continues to pick his "favourite" eleven for such an important series rather than the "best" eleven available
Complain about this postOuch that hurts!!!! i just popped downstairs at 2.30am to see how the stalemate was going and ended up sitting through 8 hours of tense, ultimately upsetting cricket. i love Freddie to bits but theleadership and body language of the team was not good in the field today. it looks like somehow we have gone back to being scared of australia.We leaked runs and could not get any control in sharp contrast to the scoring rate of the english batsmen. i am ever the pessimist and i cant see away back from here. Mentally that is a knockout blow!
There are a few sharp differences between 2005 and now and they are the answer as to why we are being outplayed.
1 michael Hussey (last year Kattich would have been coming in instead)
2 Lack of fittness, form and aggression with our bowlers(whatever happened to knocking pontings block off!!!) only right at the death today did we see some agression from harmison/flintoff. its not rocket science a leg slip,short leg and let them have it!
3. trescothick/vaughan/jones
not making excuses but lets see australia without langer ponting and mcgrath
i did 20 years of ashes pain so i can take it, lets face it its back to the normal mode! avoid all newspapers and tv coverage for the next week. watch the first days play of the next test, (they tricked me this match) resign yourself to defeat and shrug meekly at each loss then get over excited when we win the final test for a 4-1 defeat.
Complain about this postFor all of this, its best to close your eyes, think back to 2005 and reflect on the miracle that we beat the best cricket team in the universe. it really did happen i might pop on the dvd tonight. they cant take that away from me.
Im not even going to state would australia have dropped their best bowler of the previous test who had taken 17 wickets, its pointless and futile. Next we will be bringing back ray illingworth to sort out harmys action!
ps
Please Shane youve proved your point retire!!! it seems like forever he has been ruining my life!
nice to see everyone getting out of there pram about the defeat. Let's be realistic, england played well for 4 days and made a complete hash of the fifth. Call is incompetence or what you will but it has happened now and England must learn from this harsh lesson.
You can debate endlessly about Panesar/Giles or Anderson/Mahmood but the reasons for playing them are as valid as the reasons for not playing them. Giles drop wasn't regulation and we've seen similar dropped before, it wasn't a shocker and collingwood missed a better chance of a run out just after. Still england let australia score another 420 irrespective of who was at the crease.
Anyway, england need to win 2 or the last 3, the rest is in the past.
Complain about this postSir Geoffrey said a few weeks ago Fletcher should go; he has been proved right. Timid selection, Jones and Giles instead of Ried and Panasar; Harmison who sprays it everywhere - has been for 18 months, in case you hadn't noticed; weak captaincy, defending an undefenable total, instead of applying pressure and attacking the batsmen; Strauss out cheaply going for the same shot again and again. Flintoff says no inquest required, just a bad hour or so - AGAIN ? An inquest is exactly what is required. Each England player does well in one innings and - rightly - assumes he doesn't have to try again for three matches, as his place is then safe; that's all they seem to worry about. It is the attitude that is wrong; Fletcher's, Strauss's and Flintoff's for three. Rule 1 of cricket - you have to take 20 wickets to win a match. Fletcher, wake up:- that bowling attack was never going to do that. If your first six batsmen can't score the runs, 7 to 11 aren't going to either.
Complain about this postThe following players are out of form (and would have to be at their very best to play for England)
Anderson
Giles
Cook
Jones
The fact that the have failed in this test match should not be held against them, they have all work very hard for their places.
The following players need a kick up the ar**:
Harmison
Flintoff
KP
Why? because they have buckets of talent and the ability to influence the course of this ashes series. Harmisson has been lazy unprepared and unprofessional in his attitude to touring, Flintoff hasn鈥檛 put enough thought or preparation into his batting and KP's arrogance at the crease has cost England dear.
Ok so the less talented must be replaced for the next test, there is broad agreement about who needs to come in....but someone needs to put the boot into the others as well. Who does this in the England camp? Is it right coming from a captain who has so much to work on himself?
Complain about this postDon't despair. The second test shows that the Aussies are a side in decline but have a sting in the tail - they are experienced and smart and know how to win but father time cannot be halted and a great team is in terminal decline. England has the ability but has not yet learned that it is never over till its over. The experience of losing this test will be indelibly marked on their minds and they will learn from it. Don't rule out England winning 2 from the last 3 to retain the ashes.
Complain about this postthe teams are pretty well matched - the difference is Shane Warne - if we had him we'd be 2 up instead of 2 down
Complain about this postFollowing Warne's Way sucess in the 12:40 @ Fontwell, I'm backing No 7 Bally Bolshoi to beat the fav Flintoff in the 1:40
Complain about this postJonathan,
I am a little bemused at the flak the england players are getting from the media, remember these are the players that have already won the ashes. Something that alot of the so called 'best' players were unable to do for 20 years. Australia are the best team in the world and playing at home will win not only this series but 85 to 90 % of all their home series. This isn't talk the facts speak for themselves, this england team is the best i have witnessed and gave me great pleasure last year, especially seeing it first hand at Edgbaston for the last two days. England didn't simply throw it away today and they do care! the aussies must be given credit. So jonathan don't be so quick to call them hapless and naive coming from a man who played a huge 3 test matches for england and returned match figures of something like 0 for 99 and scored 2 not out in his one test match against australia. With these stats in mind i find it hard to believe that you are a great position to critisise the current crop of players who deserve respect and admiration. For me they will always be legends, all the best boys.
Daniel
Complain about this postOK, rather than spend all our time attacking messers Fletcher and Flintoff, Giles and Anderson, lets look to the future.
There are still three tests to go in this series. England have proven they have the ability to win two tests in a series against the Aussies, and a repeat performance will see them return with the urn intact.
So the big question is not whether they can do it, but how they can do it.
Lets look at the batting line up. Despite the evidence on show, these guys can actually bat. They proved this in the second innings at Brisbane, and certainly in the first innings at Adelaide. Given the loss of Vaughan and Tresco I don't believe there are any changes to be made here.
The bowling attack is a very different story, and this is where Englands problems really lie. The only bowlers to perform so far have been Flintoff and Hoggard, and so their selection is assured. Harmison is clearly not in form, but who else in the squad can match him when he fires. He has shown improvement in Adelaide, and should unquestionably be given more time. The fate of the Ashes may rest on his shoulders. Now we get to the Anderson, Giles, Monty debate. Forget the drop of Ponting, these things happen even to the best fielders. The important thing is the bowling. Shane Warne has shown the value of a great spinner, and Giles has shown that he cannot spin the ball. The question is whether Monty can do any better. The answer is clear - nobody knows. But he must now be given the chance, and for a great deal longer than a couple of tests. His position should be guaranteed for the remainder of this series, and for the next two as well, to allow him time to bed in. If all goes well, England will have a spinner. If not, then he has had a good chance to prove himself. So the question as regards the bowling should actually be between Giles and Anderson. Here you can make your selection based on the merits of the individual pitch.
The final controversy is over the holder of the gloves. Jones has performed well so far, especially in standing up to Hoggard, and has certainly earned his place in the side.
So the upshot is that despite the loss, England can not make wholesale changes. Monty must play now, and Giles, Anderson and Mahmoud are in the fight for the remaining place.
If we don't dramatically change the team, what do we change? The answer is the mental side, and that starts with the captain. Don't forget that Flintoff is not the England captain, but a temporary stand in. He can take us through the Ashes, but after this series is complete, Vaughan must either be back or be replaced. If he is not fit, then the honour should go to Strauss, who started to show real steel against Pakistan. And then there is the killer edge. England do (against all current evidence) posess this - it was shown in their aggressive declaration. They just lacked the tools to execute. But they are woefully short of Australia in this department. On day five, Australia never gave up chasing the win, and all credit to them. When do we learn that in every sport the most dangerous place to be is holding out for a draw. By attacking and always seeking the win you will sometimes get turned over, but will always place your opponents under pressure. When you are under pressure is when you make mistakes - a lesson England should have learnt all to well from the Adelaide debacle
Complain about this postI am just glad I live in Bordeaux and do not have to suffer quite so much the pain and humiliation of this totally inept and childish team. It begers belief that the England "boys" could not stick to a careful match plan and patiently bat with maturity and determination. This must be the most disappointing defeat in modern times and one which thoroughly destroys any support I would so love to give my country's team. Give up now and spare us all the anguish... a white rose comes to mind.
Complain about this postThe point may be correct about Strauss but surely the way he was batting it was a question of time? He was like a startled rabbit in the headlights
Complain about this postThere's too much panic here, it's not all about team selection. it's just that once a couple of wickets fall, things go awry.
1)Seeing as we are now 2 down, Panesar should be included as we need to take the game to Australia. A change in mindset is needed and we need to go for broke, attacking from the onset.
2)Dropping Jones is going to make no difference whatsoever. Read is even worse. The Aussies know he is not the best batsman and is particularly inept at dealing with yorkers and slower ball. Jones is mentally tougher, but will really need to prove his critics wrong. He has only had 2 goes so far. By dropping him, you have 2 disillusioned keepers. people whp think that by dropping GJ are incredibly naive beyond belief. Think about it.
3)Michael Vaughan - has not played properly for over 7 months. 'Nuff said!
We just need to take the game to the Aussies like we did last year. Fight fire with fire. It's the only chance we have, because, let's face it, we have been incredibly defensive during these 2 tests.
Complain about this postin post 53 woofy wrote "Persist with Giles and Jones" and "Jones scores big"....when was that !!!!??????
You must be Fletcher under a diff name... he is the only other person with an interest in england cricket who believes the same!!
Changes needed :-
Strauss captain
Giles out (home please)
Jones out
Anderson out
Harmison out
Read in
Monty in
Mahmood in
Broad in
This series is dead and buried...look to the future now and we may just challenge austrailia again sooner rather than later.
Complain about this postIt seems to me that Duncan Fletcher (& his role) has always been overestimated. The job is a sinecure and at the end of the tour he should be prised out of it, even in the unlikely event that England retain the ashes.
Complain about this postMichael Allen
Whilst I am ridiculously biased - this is the worst possible result for the overall series. 2-0 looks dangerously like a landslide and we have only just started. If we are to lose the ashes and Glen Mcrath's prediction comes true can you imagine the stick we will get from all the bar staff in the london bars.
There are obvious selection problems - namely the continued faith in James Anderson who is living off the back of a world cup match in which he took 3 or 4 wickets way back when. Whilst I could understand (to an extent) picking Giles in the first test - the decision looks all the more ridiculous now with the continued selection of 4- ball Anderson. On the Giles front - If we have to have a spinner who can bat why not play darlymple who is already in australia and can catch and bat? and give Anderson's spot to panesar when it turns and to mahmood when we require the heat. Suggest we also get Simon Jones and vaughan bandaged up ready to play as soon as possible. If we don't win in Perth it is all over and 5-0.
Complain about this postIf we go into the next test without changing tactics then we may just as well go in with an extra batsman. anybody could perform Giles's current 'role' in the attack of firing down darts down the leg side. Give me a video camera and you can watch me bowling left arm over, pitching it two feet outside leg stump, and I'm right handed!
Englands mentality(Hoggy excepted) after the drop of Ponting on 35 almost immediately became, ' oh well, we scored 500+ in the first innings, that means we can't lose, right?' where is it written in the laws of the game that teams who concede a slender first innings deficit are not allowed to try and win? we've done it ourselves under Vaughan, a couple of times in 2004 (Trent Bridge v New Zealand and Old Trafford vs West Indies) Personally I think we should stick with the team we've got but change gameplan to attack attack attack, For example in the firts innings we could easily have had another 70 or 80 runs by the time we declared, that could have made the difference. What do we have to lose, even pride has gone now! Giles can bowl, he just has to put it where they have to play him. I believe in this team and I want them to do well, Hayden, Langer, McGrath, Lee and Martyn all look like they can be exposed, go for their weak points and don't take another backward step!
Complain about this postHow England have contrived to lose this test is beyond me. Whenever the Aussies begin to exert any pressure on us we fold like a pack of cards. Losing 9 wickets for 60 in 43 overs is quite simply inexusable, which makes Flintoff's comments re refusing to blame his batters all the more galling.
It also highlights what a poor declaration he made in the first innings. On a flat lifeless pitch we were always going to have to bat again at some stage, so why not get all the runs in the first innings, when the Aussies were dead and buried. We could have batted on for another 30 overs, taken our score to 700 and still had almost 3 days to bowl them out twice. I can't believe that this decision hasn't been the focus of more debate.
Duncan Fletcher is now becoming a real worry with his obessive stance re batting to 8. If Giles were providing real value here you could sympathise with his viewpoint, but when England really needed a number 8 this morning he lasted just 8 balls. Add to that the fact that in 2 tests England have taken just 24 wickets, and its clear to the rest of the sane, cricket watching world that we desparately need some attacking options with the ball. Monty brings that threat and with 2 wins from 3 games required it's time to stop taking the defensive option.
The other worries are Anderson and Harmison who again have been inoccuos. The problem here is that we have little cover. Mahmood is as likely to go at 6 an over as he is to be threatening, and Plunkett has been out injured for months.
Who'd be an England selector at the minute?
Complain about this postengland were a disgrace. they threw away the match. Giles and Jones did nothing to augment Fletcher's argument of deeper batting. Furthermore, this was further proof that in no way shape or form do they deserve their places in the engalnd team.
Complain about this postIf we are picking our bowlers for their (supposedly) batting ability, why don't we pick our batters for their bowling? Come on Fletch, drop our top six batsmen for all those 'all rounders' muppets you pick for the one day side!
It was Vaugn that won us the Ashes, not Fletcher and he must go
Complain about this postI cannot understand why the English seem not have a tough mindset when they are facing pressure. Only Collingwood and Flintoff seem to be able to cope. If Flintoff is injured for the next test then God help us! Too much is expected of this one man. We need Vaughan back and needd the rest to toughen up. These are professionals who should easily have saved this game - even with Warne bowling well.
I would also like to know why Rob Key has not been given another chance as he has the mental toughness required to play against these Aussies
Complain about this postDuring the despair of the 1st test, via the good offices of Jonathans Blogpages I quoted Kipling and said if you can keep you head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you......
I said Harmison et al should keep faith and believe. For 3 and half days ( not 4 days erronously referred to by the commentators and England Captain) England did just that. Then as Jonathan rightly points out there was a collective loss of nerve.
Now can England pull off the greatest sporting comeback of all time ? Can England make 1981 seem like a tea party ?
We will know the answer when you see the team for Perth which MUST be as follows in batting order:
1.Strauss
2. Cook -as Vaughan is still forlorn
3. Bell
4.Collingwood
5.Pieterson
6. Flintoff
7. Last chance Jones -standing up to Hoggard means he deserves another go as he is clearly confident.
8. Giles - I know, I know
9. Hoggard
10. Harmison -What alternative is there?
11. About time too Panaser
Footnote - I am a top fan of Freddie but if he does another interview saying you cant tell test batsmen how to bat in certain situations, then give the captaincy to Strauss or let Michael Vaughan come in and do the team talks.
England need leadership now not lethargy.
Its the last chance saloon already and the mince pies and turkeys aint even here yet.
Complain about this postFletcher must be the only one of the school of coaching that says you should select your only spinner in a test match based on his batting ability!
This is so shocking that I wonder whether this is going to be the beginning of the end for him.
Mr Fletcher, here's an easy to remember guide to picking your spin bowlers:
- if you're only playing one spinner, then select him for his bowling,
- if you're playing two spinners, then select the 'second' one based on his batting or fielding.
Simple enough for even you to remember, sir.
Complain about this postI'm am aussie and I have to say the only thing I've seen that's more pathetic than England's batting this morning are the comments made by you poms. They had a bad day - get over it.
They are a great team with some absolute champions (Flintoff, Peterson, Collingwood) and they deserve better than this pathetic diatribe.
Whethr this type of loss hardens them and makes them better or destroys them depends very much on whether their supporters rally behind them or turn against them.
The British media have destroyed teams in the past, don't let them destroy this one.
Complain about this postStop your whinging and support your team.
It was a slap on fletchers face for not playing panesar. And what exactly has giles provided with his batting. Amere 20 runs won't help win the match. we need wicket takers - so bring in monty and saj mahmood for anderson.
Complain about this postCan we please please have two new bowlers. Harmy and Gilo have not arrived in Oz yet.
Not convinced that Flintoff is a captain (great player yes). Neither am I convinced by strauss, neither seem to have too much upstairs. How about Collingwood?
Shame for the Australians that it had to start with a very bad umpiring decision (how far did that miss the bat by?), surely sours the victory. Harmisons decision was poor too, way too high. The umpires were caught in the moment. Do umpires ever comment or apologise?
Complain about this postFletcher should leave after the Ashes - new ideas, methods & selections are required. Flintoff should be relieved of captaincy as there is too much workload on him as an all rounder - give it to Strauss for the remaining 3 tests. Panesar should have been selected for this test - negative tactics given the flat pitch & selecting Giles.
Complain about this postPerhaps England (I can't bring myself to say 'we' after that shambles) need some motivation from Delia Smith. "COME ON - WHERE ARE YOU? LET'S BE HAVING YOU"
Complain about this postSpot on, Aggers.
Complain about this postYou got in one Jonathon,this must have made Ken Barrington and Trevor Bailey stir in their grave,the most amatuerish display I have witnessed,even allowing for two umpiring errors,feet movement,fishing for the ball,knowing who,s call it is going for singles,bad feild placing,are the cotributory factors,to this defeat,and since when did the Aussies need help.
Complain about this postJust to make matters worse,the Captain said,we played bad for an hour, was the understatement of the year, then the Coach,defends his decision,to have only one spinner, Oh! that must the unfit man,who is good with the bat,but forgot to pack it, sad, sad sad.
Well done Australia-they always seem to have the guts to come back at us,and win. England I am sure will put the defeat behind them and show the Aussies they're not just cream puff pommies with their backsides in their hands!
Complain about this postEngland played well for maybe 9 of the 15 sessions but were seriously wanting on the last day. Two players were brought in to beef up our batting and neither did.... it is tough to be critical of them when the others failed too ... but in my view neither Giles nor Jones are the best players we have in their positions in the touring party .... THEY HAVE TO BE DROPPED. If Fletcher can not wake up to that LETS CHANGE HIM TOO.
It is ironic that Giles actually increased his batting average in this test (27 runs, out once), Jones did not (11 runs out twice), but when push came to shove both failed.
The tatics used yesterday must also be questioned. Had England been bowled out in the same number of overs for 200 then the game would have been safe.
Positives from the game .... the batting in our first innings, and the performance of Hoggard. Its a tough ask to win two of three and get a draw (or better) in the other one .... I'm writing to Santa .... I know what I want for Christmas.
Complain about this postBeing an English Cricket fan, I am appalled by such a defensive display resulting in such a loss. PS I think its time Fletcher stopped running the team and a strong Captain took its rein which I think is Flintoff
Complain about this postWHY : Giles
Anderson
Jones
and especially WHY Harmison ??????
WHY is Flintoff captain ?
If Fletcher had anything about himself, he'd offer his resignation.
TRIPE ! UTTER TRIPE !
Complain about this postThe spin doctors will try to limit criticism of individuals, but the arrogance and self-centered attitude of Kevin Pietersen came out in its full glory today. Later in the day there were the bizarre aggressive throw-ins, culminating in the ghastly 4 overthrows, so brilliantly described on the radio, but the way he got out today, when just half an hour of him scoring 20-30 would probably have put the game out of Australia's reach was - for once this is the right word - incredible. For a top batsman to be bowled round his legs, with the ball actually clipping the OFF stump, at that point of the game, was extraordinary. It will go down as one of cricket's 3 or 4 truly iconic dismissals.
Unfortunately, KP believes his own and the ECB's PR. He has an extraordinary talent, but does not seem to have much idea how to use it for the good of his team. Today's was a perfect example, but throughout his career there are high scores in matches which England lost, but could have won if he had capitalised on his big scores.
Like the England football team so often, the English cricket team's main objective when they started the Adelaide Test was "to get a result", sports-speak for not losing. The ridiculous slowness of their scoring on a perfect pitch in the first innings was rightly lambasted by the Australian media, whereas all the UK media could do - still in shock after Brisbane - was to praise it. Even when Australia batted, all England wanted to do was keep the run rates down. Any other team who had posted 550+ would have attacked for wickets, not just hope the batsmen would make mistakes,
Everyone knew that the Australian team was capable of getting a good score on this pitch. England handed Australia the chance of turning the match around - and they grabbed it with both hands.
Complain about this postAs with the rest of the country I'm absolutely gutted by the inadequate performance today. Why oh why is Monty not selected ?
Looks as if we're heading back to the bad old days. "If your face fits . . . . . . .etc" Not what you know but who.
I really can't see us pulling this one round and a white wash is firmly on the cards.
Prove me wrong England and I'll donate 拢100 to whatever charity you guys name.
Complain about this postsome thoughts:
flintoff captained well (im an aussie by the way). his field placements were very innovative. his comments post match though reek of rhetoric (one poor hour? cmon mate!!!).
that fletch bloke has me bamboozled. standing by his decision to play giles shows a man lost in his own wayward pride.
damien martin has thrown away his career, clarke will take his spot in perth.
let the SELECTORS do the selecting - that mainains impartiality, objectivity and good sense. how can flether pick the side? that is simply ridiculous.
get lehmann as your new coach, his cricketing brain is second to none.
dont slash at two foot wide balls when chasing a draw.
dont chase draws - go for the jugular.
get some positivity, panesar looks the part, giles looks old and tired.
learn to play cricket.
l
Complain about this postAs a young cricketer watching the latest Ahses serious has been somewhat disapointing. But we saw some great batting by are middle order we looked to be getting oursleves back to confidence, but to then go out in the 2nd innings and bat like we did was very negative and we looked beaten already.
Anderson and Giles out, bring in Panesar and Mahmood an see wat they can do, also fletcher to go after serious bring in someone English!
Complain about this postI know it's a dark day for England's hopes of keeping the Ashes and am dreadfully disappointed at the outcome in Adelaide but...... for sheer entertainment value Geoff Boycott's 2 or 3 minutes of TMS commentary after Freddie got out had me chuckling myself to sleep.
Complain about this postKeep it up great man.
What England needs to do to turn the series around:
Following need to be done before the 3rd Test.
1. Change the coach 鈥 Kick DF out. Lehmann has offered to coach. Take him.
2. Change the captain 鈥 Make Strauss the captain.
3. Take Monty in place of Giles.
4. Take Read in place of Jones.
5. Take Saj in place of Anderson.
All of these have to be done starting at the top. England is going to react exactly as Aus did in England. Do nothing. So, they are going to be blown away.
Venkat
Complain about this postWell why am i not surprised. We could almost see it coming.
Complain about this postThe problem is we have players and management that always talk a good game, and are all so nice and relaxed and polite. Well we need players and management that are aggresive. This is competitive sport.
We also need to pick players that have bottle, poor Giles and Bell looked scared to death everytime they came out.
Its the same with all our national sportsteams. We employ yes men managers who talk a good game and have no passion then wonder why we always lose.
absolutely pathetic embarrassing and gutless. it started so bad, as they slunk into brisbane, now this
Complain about this post. excepting paul collingwood. they have collectively bottled it.
for massively well paid players on 拢300 k basic per annum they are an unprofessional disgrace.
the whole match was summed by ashley giles' drop off hoggard.
Australia's Bullying tactics? What, like trying to win a match instead of playing for a draw? Horresco referens! On the second's day play, the English team reminded me of the days when the Indian one-day team would play for a draw. I told my son on the morning of the third day that Australia was playing to win, England was playing for a draw and that the result would either be a negative draw, without psychological advantage to England, or an Australian win.
Complain about this postLet's not forget that one of the reasons for Australia's losing the Ashes last year was because Australian teams play to win and often give sporting chances to oppositions鈥攁t the risk of losing鈥攊nstead of playing for draws.
It's all very well to suggest as some do above that England should have declared after reaching 600, as Australia did in Brisbane; but Australia also scored quickly in Brisbane, leaving plenty of time to take 20 wickets. England should either have batted until all out鈥攊nto the third day and scoring over 700, perhaps鈥攐r declared soon after lunch on the second day. By batting for almost two days for a mere 551 England shewed that the team was not prepared to play aggressively enough to win one match, let alone a series.
It's a good thing Ponting lost the toss; the game would have been over by lunch on the fourth day, otherwise.
Still, I enjoyed the game, and particularly the last day's play, immensely.
Any team without Vaughn and Simon Jones and with the hapless Harmison, Anderson, Giles and Garaint Jones led by an injured and out of form Flintoff would struggle against almost all the other Test Match playing countries. Taking seven players from any team would create problems. Central contracts have a lot to answer for and how about some fresh selectors, the current lot stopped playing the game over twenty years ago.
Complain about this postThere are no outstanding candidates for SPOTY so lets all vote Monty to at least embarrass Fletcher into playing him!!! Come on everybody....VOTE MONTY!!!!!!
Complain about this postIt is a great shame and hindsight is a wonderful thing! Lots of critics are blaming lots of things but those same people would be cheering had things turned out differently.
The match turned on one thing - Giles drop of Pointing. Had he caught him we would have destroyed them and the critics would be praising.
Lets not get to down - I've got a funny feeling about this series; the same as I had after the first test last time ...
Complain about this posti am shattered by this result....panasar from the start....kp needs to talk to fiery....flintoff needs to rest and let strussy take over if he's not 100%. ian bell needs to deploy the ear-plugs or David Blane needs to put him in a trance before Warney gets hold of him in Perth; But above all KEEP BELIEVING otherwise 2005 will be forgotten in the time it takes Brett Lee bowl a yorker. Come on England - Flan.
Complain about this postI am absolutely gutted. What a shambolic last day !! Surely England knew what to expect from Warne, but where was the plan to frustrate him ? Instead they played straight into his hands, with hesitant, negative cricket. All out for 129 on a featherbed is beyond belief. Losing a match after putting 551 on the board is inexcusable.
Complain about this postI really hope they bounce back from this, but certain players have to find some form and fast. The one player who shines out like a beacon and seems to be up for the battle is Paul Collingwood. Shame his determination, courage and sheer guts in the face of extreme pressure, can't rub off on some of the other members of the team. This defeat reminded me of the 2nd test defeat at Lords in 1984 against the West Indians, when England, looking comfortable going into the final day, succumbed to a devastating 9 wicket defeat, a defeat which paved the way to a 5-0 series whitewash. I hope today's shambles doesn't signal the same.
We refer to England been positive but scoring some 60 runs from 43 overs is seen as far as positive. From a position of 57 - 1 overnight and a draw to play for - what has happened to good old fashion test cricket, runs were secondary we only had to tick the scoreboard over throughout the day to secure going into the next test only 1 down - if there is to be any way back we must make selection changes? Jones & Anderson must be replaced by Read and Pansear as a start with also Mahmood coming into reckoning.
Complain about this postAs for Giles, if only he had held on to the drop chance for which most of the eleven would have held on to, and he is never going to bowl aside out, while he makes small amount of runs his loss at number 8 will be only a small loss, with Pansear seen by most as bowler who could bowl aside out. We appear to be favouring with selection on personnel basis of who is liked!
We must feel sorry for the likes of Collingwood, Hoggard and Peiterson for theire first innings heroics.
A battle, I think not agreeing with your comments (JA) we just folded like a pack of cards
and the batters must take the blame for this sad demise, silly runout of Bell didn't help matters nor did the sweep shots!
In conclusion I think Fletcher & Flintoff have a lot of thinking to do over selection for the next test.
Let's hope Micheal Vaughan returns from fitness sooner rather than later to ease the burden upon Freddie.
Flintoff needs to be replaced as stand in captain as he is no where near the player he was before he took over. What's the point of Anderson being there, he's not test match quality, and with Harmison struggling, we need a new attack
Complain about this postFlintoff needs to be replaced as stand in captain as he is no where near the player he was before he took over. What's the point of Anderson being there, he's not test match quality, and with Harmison struggling, we need a new attack
Complain about this postSo, after all the hard work in the summer of 2005 we hand back the ashes on a plate. Yes, we miss Michael Vaughans leadership & Simon Jones`s bowling, but with Tresco coming home we should have gone for experience, with Mark Butcher getting the call.( No disrespect to the quality of Ed Joyce here but horses for courses ) Also Strauss should have been given the captaincy to allow Freddie to concentrate on his batting & bowling. Gilo should be 2nd string behind the more attacking Monty, and I`m sorry, but what has Chris Read done wrong ?
Complain about this postFinally, Mahmood in for Anderson. OK he can be wayward, but Jimmy & Harmy haven`t exactly bowled a tight line in the last two tests !
I agree with Karl Tall about Vaughan. It's only when he's not there that there seems to be something badly missing. No good Fletcher and a whole team of analysts giving Freddy a 'hymn' sheet for possible scenarios. They need a proven decision-maker who knows how to turn a situation around.
Also, Freddy could get back to what he does best!
Any thoughts on the openers? Everybody's questioning Giles over Monty and the tribulations of Harmison. But we need better start
If Joyce gets in and gets a score in the next game or two, should he be given a run out over Cook? Big player under pressure and once he's in, he's usually there to stay (aka Collingwood)
Complain about this post
Complain about this postYet again, the England cricket team let themselves down. I woke up in the morning, quite keen to see what we declared on, and whether we had managed to get a few Ausie wickets to get the draw. Sat in utter disbelief as the score came up, and that we had lost the test after scoring 500-odd runs in the first innings. I have seen some pretty dismal England performances over the last 20 years, but this took the mick. After this performance it could well be a 5-0 whitewash, and another 20 years before we get the Ashes back again. Drop Giles and Anderson, what do we have to lose now ?? Dignity ? That went this morning...
The need for continuity is all well and good but the current selections are once again giving The England team the appearance of a gentleman's club. It looks like Monty ns chris Reid ar not members. I think it is time for fletcher to fall on his sword. he was willing enough to accept accolades after the ashes were regained so he must accept brickbats now they are lost. I have the fear that we are looking at 3-0 series result, England had one weapon that Australia feared and that was the pace ond steep bounce of Harmison and Flintoff. Pitch arrangements have negated this, why else would a groundsman soaked a pitch to that extent just before a game and with the weather forecast that was current?
Complain about this post@Micheal Payn, not to mention Ramp's footwork!
seriously to back up claims for Strauss as captain - he is a good man manager/motivator almost by instinct. and relinquishing the captaincy after an ashes disaster helped another allrounder some time ago. cant think who....!
Complain about this postGolly gosh! It's wonderful to read this blog. Although I am amazed to read such comments about your own team. Yes we were disappointed to lose the ashes last year but we never turned on our players as you whingers do. Get behind your guys and support them -don't abandon them in defeat - they are playing for their country, playing for you. Pride is worth playing for and you haven't lost that yet... And by the way how about just a little praise for the winning team?
Complain about this postYes, as pretty much all the above messages make clear, Fletcher has got every single important decision wrong - Flintoff over Strauss as captain, Giles instead of Panesar, Jones instead of Read and Anderson over Mahmood. Anderson and Giles are particularly bad mistakes, as they hadn't played Test cricket for so long. Fletcher gambled on safety first, and it's backfired in the most spectacular way possible. I just hope he's big enough to admit his mistakes and make the changes for the third Test.
Complain about this postAs a Hampshire fan it wasn't so bad - excellent hundreds from Pietersen (also England's leading spinner) and MichaelClarke while our captain wrapped it up in his inimitable manner. England should just be grateful that the magnificent Shane Watson wasn't fit. Maybe England's centrally contracted players should enter a team in the Championship next year (starting in Div 2 of course)
Complain about this postridiculous!
Complain about this postBring em home!!
Complain about this postI feel it is time that we adopt a ruthless selection policy similar to one that the Australians have done for years. Not only in cricket but unilaterally across all sports. Why are we left so far behind in Rugby, football and cricket. Sports we consider pride and pacel of the English culture.
Simple, because we pick names over quality.
Why was Robert Key not picked? Monty Panesar is our best spinner, so why was he not paying? Though Cook has made a good start to cricket has his recent scores justified selection? Jones vs Read.... simple pick the in form wicket-keeper.
Complain about this postPost 62: At 11:03 AM on 05 Dec 2006, Matt wrote:
Ahh
Its a great thing to be an Australian living in London right now.
Warne for PM!
----------------------------------------
Except that everyone in my office does not even seem to remember what cricket is this year.
The english cricket bandwagon is offloading passengers faster than a peak hour train arriving at Waterloo station in the morning.
Come on Aussie.
Complain about this postDuncan Fletcher has all but lost us the Ashes with his negative tactics. Yes monty isn't the best batsman in the world but he is a damn sight better bowler than Giles. Also Fletcher says he needs a number eight who can bat. I'd rather have a top class bowler who can take wickets. Leave the batting to the batsman and the bowling to the bowlers. MONTY MUST PLAY
Complain about this postAfter all the hype before the series and all the hard work in the first four days, the fifth day at Adelaide and most of the performance at the Gabba have been embarrassing.
Fletcher deserves everything that is coming to him over the next week. Poor tour scheduling (not his fault but he must surely have some input?) mean that those who have not played in the tests have had no competitive cricket for at least two and half weeks. Vaughan has played more cricket in Australia that Plunkett, Read and Joyce combined!!!!!
Selection is where Fletcher has to take the rap though. Anderson...fine if hes on form but hes had no cricket for months, Giles..a defensive bits and pieces player with no cricket for a year, Jones...dropped for his poor batting this summer, etc etc. What is Fletcher trying to achieve?
So we need to bat to eight? Mahmood is surely better than Anderson at the moment and can certainly bat. Panesar is widely held to be our best spinner for years, yet Fletcher doesn't pick him. Read is at least a good a batsman as Jones on present form and is a better keeper. Why doesn't Fletcher pick them?
The problem now of course is that, with only a two-day game and then three back to back tests to go before the one day massacre starts, we would be bringing in players that have very very little playing experience in these conditions. Are we really expecting that Plunkett, Mahmood, Read and Panesar can perform to their best when they've not been played for weeks.
It seems to me that Boycott was right all along, the only problem was timing. Come Englands (inevitable) world cup departure, it'll be bye-bye Duncan.
Complain about this postYes, it was a bad result, and the manner of the result made it even worse, but the team and the supporters need to keep some perspective!
The difference between these two sides is not that great, and the English players do not need the extra pressure that will be applied by the press and the cricket supporters. We need to support the team and give them every encouragement!
From the England team point of view they need to turn things round, and that is going to be tough- but there is hope.
We all saw in 2005 that Australia do make mistakes when put under pressure, and thats what we need the English team to do.
One of the key factors in Englands win in 2005 was the bowling attack. In essence all the English bowlers could apply pressure, and all did take wickets, (containment was never an issue). Several of the Australian batsmen just could not cope without having a bowler to "milk". Matthew Hayden, Damian Martyn, and Adam Gilchrist have all struggled in recent matches against England.
England need to play "their game" and apply pressure and that means picking five bowlers who can take wickets.
As for the loss of the last test, the turning point was the stupid declaration. With a pitch that was always going to deteriorate you want to make all your runs as early in the game as possible. 551 for 6, only leaves Australia 351 to avoid the follow-on, on a good pitch. 650-700 means they need 450-500 to avoid the follow on, on a pitch which would not have been as good. England then could have really applied some pressure to the Australian batsmen.
lets hope Freddie and the boys learn from the mistakes and can make the Aussies battle under pressure.
Complain about this postFletcher used the first match of the Ashes as a warm-up - hardly any bowler was match-ready (which made the exclusion of fit and in-form Monty all the more unbelievable) and no team can afford to gift Australia a 1-0 lead.
As well as depleting our attacking threat, the selection of Giles showed a lack of confidence in the batsmen. "Been-out-for-a-year" Giles is tanning nicely but is merely participating rather than looking like he can positively change the outcome of sessions and games.
If Flintoff is to remain captain, other players need to step up to the plate and help him with suggestions. Too many seem happy to let him carry the burden alone.
Most fans don't mind seeing a team lose if they at least went out with the right selection and the right frame of mind - to play attacking, intelligent cricket and to actually look like they believe that they are the equals of their opponent (or better!)
Complain about this postAs horrendous and inept an all round performance in the second innings that i have ever seen. Fletcher is more bothered about his own ego in sticking with his 'favourites' than he is about retaining the ashes and he has to go. if i had spent thousands travelling to aus only to see that i would feel cheated. Drop giles, anderson and jones and bring in panesar, read and mahmood.
Complain about this postA great cricketer does not a great captain make. For Geoffrey Boycott/Ian Botham read Freddie Flintoff. I couldn't believe the way the match went this morning. The first error was declaring when we did. We should have eked out every run in the first innings. A score of 650 plus would have meant the Aussies were out of the matching and needing a big score just to avoid the follow-on. We then played too casually in the first session this morning. All the hype of the last 18 months has now been blown away.
We need Vaughn back asap. Failing that Strauss should be given the captaincy and Panesar the nod. Giles is in for his batting & fielding, don't make me laugh!
Complain about this postSimply disappointing, disgusting , pathetic, mediocre - add more negative superlatives- performance from England.
Complain about this postRuined my night as well as the day.
Duncan Fletchers obsession with Giles coupled with some irresponsible batting by England batsmen has lead us to this.
For Goodness sake, please pick Monty and lets see how he performs.
Giles hasn't added any value to the batting department which is the supposed advantage Giles has over Monty and hasn't done any magic with his non-turning spin bowling either, plus dropped a crucial catch which is basically the cause of the shock defeat.
DF, I beg you to give Monty a chance, all of us are going mad here now.
I am an Aussie and a proud one at that. When we lost the ashes I copped all the flak in good spirit but said from the beginning that while you won...it took you the last day of the last test, at home in favourable conditions, with gillespie, martyn, tait and gilly all underperforming terribly. And the glenn mcgrath injury in two tests was no doubt huge. On the other hand, your boys could not have played any better and had everything go right fro them AND ONLY JUST WON. I ALWAYS SAID that on our wickets, with the aussie 'wounded animal' mindset that it would be 5-0.
Until you play attacking, confident (2006) winning cricket for the ENTIRE match you will continue to crumkble in these circumstances. It is the same as your rugby and football national teams. They play boring, predictable and play to 'not lose' instead of playing positive, attacking, go for the jugular style of play that is shown by brazil is football and kiwis/oz in ruygby.
Its all attitude, belief, confidence and a bit of arrogance....skills only get you so far in elite sport.
PS Are you sure Collingwood wasnt kidnapped from Australia at birth?? HE IS THE ONLY ONE WITH A BIT OF HEART!!
Good luck with the rest of the tour....They will probably play Monty in Perth now...poor bugger, hardly a spinners paradise the riocjk hard pacemens waca wicket...selectors are almost as bad as the players....AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE
I'm going to the bookies now to collect my tidy profits from what was a certain money spinner!!!
Complain about this postI have to agree with Michael, and say that Monty and Read should play over Giles and Jones, as they are the better players - shame that Fletch is in love with Jones and Giles - as they say love is blinding as he can obviously not see that Monty and Read are the better players, it needs to change if we are to win the next tests.
Complain about this postAdrian wrote:
''i am utterly lost as to how England can manage to be so appalling.'',
I'm not.
cheers,
Matt
Complain about this postPlease someone tell me that this is all a horrible dream?!!
We MUST go on the offensive in Perth. That means Panesar has to play! I'd also put Mahmood in instead of Anderson, and whilst we're at it, put Read behind the stumps as well. However, Fletcher is very stubborn and this is highly unlikely.
Feel so sorry for the Barmy Army. Great support as always. Let's not give up just yet though.
C'mon England!
Complain about this postYou couldn't make this up.
Complain about this postJust been to the bookies. Warnes Way won the 12.40 at Fontwell by FOUR lengths whilst Flintoff in the 1.40 was beaten into second by a distance.
I agree with Geoffry Boycott, Flether must go, preferably immediately, although I fear we are stuck with him until at least after the wrold cup. He seems to have lost his mind. Firstly to select somebody (Giles) with a test batting average of 21 for their batting is ridiculous. In terms of worrying about depth of batting, do England really need five specialist bowlers? Pietersen is bowling OK, and Collingwood disn't bowl a single over despite Hoggard, who isn't much quicker taking 7 wickets in the first innings. I feel Collingwood's bowling may have been suited to this pitch has bowling medium pace with the keeper standing up to the stumps seemed to work well for Hoggard. Bringing Joyce and Panesar in for Giles and Anderson would have certainly strengthened the side.
Complain about this postAs an aussie I am pleased with the result today, obviously. I did feel a bit for the england team as I didn;t think they will capitulate like the way did!
England won the Ashes last year for two reasons:
1. they were brave and took the fight to Aus.
2. We were not reallu firing on the tour
Austrlaia went away from the defeat and addressed all the issues and have gone from strength to strenght. England on the other hand (and they do this in every sport) didn't look ahead and prepare for the next challenge. Old clishe 'it's easier to get to the top than staying there'
England need to forget about the last trwo tests and the last two years. They need to keep looking ahead and put in the hard yakka and make the tough decisions to get back on top.
there's no point in remembereing, 2005 or 1986 or whenever. The present and the future is what counts.
I love cricket and we need a strong England team to keep Cricket as a great game.
Commissiorations to all English Cricket fans but there's still 3 more tests to go. the Fat lady hasn't sung yet albeit she maybe clearing her throat!
Complain about this postListening to on online interview with Ponting this morning I was reminded of a cruel post yesterday asking if England did not deserve a captain with an IQ higher than 20. Ponting gave a detailed and unscripted analysis of hwo they won, going through England's tactics, learning from past games, knowing that Warne was a possible trump card and so on.
All we get from Flintoff is an illiterate excuse (presumably pre-approved by the ECB's spin doctors) that England had a poor hour today which lost them the game.
England had poor HOURS when THEY were batting so slowly, poor HOURS when they were not even trying to get Australia out but just slow down their scoring - and poor HOURS throughout their second innings when they could not work out what they were trying to do.
The trouble is, it is not Flintoff who should be blamed, but Fletcher as it appears he directs everything from the field placings to the bowling changes. He should go.
Complain about this postThis will be viewed as one of their worst ever defeats in history. No team has ever lost after declaring on a higher total than their 551-6 batting first in a test. There will have to be lots of changes now. I'd dump Jones , Harmison, Anderson and Giles, and replace them with Joyce batting at 6, Flintoff at 7, Reed at 8, Mahmood at 9, Hoggard at 10 and Panesar at 11. That's maybe a bowler short but I'd be looking for Bell and KP to bowl, if required, up to 15 overs an innings between them from now on, just to tie down an end or give others a break. However, I suspect 听there's a serious 听problem with Flintoff's fitness. 听Just who do they fetch from the Academy squad if Freddie breaks down? 听Jon Lewis? Strauss is a better captain and re-appointing Fred for this series is already looking a mistake.
Complain about this postattack is the best means of defence; instead, the english selectors on tour chose to go on the defensive in both the tests. utter stupidity isn't it? when you very well know you are are playing in front of a partisan crowd of 40,000 aussies screaming down your throat!
duncan fletcher has to take most of the blame. he allowed favouritism instead of common sense to have the better of him. it really really insults one's intelligence to hear his excuses on omitting chris read and monty panesar in favour of geriant jones and ashley giles
we are all truly fed-up
Complain about this postDefinitely some hard selection decisions needed. The poor performance of Langer, Hayden and Martyn is a major concern.
Roo
Complain about this postI was lucky enough to witness the magnificent and shocking win by the Aussies at the Adelaide Oval. I, as an Aussie loyal supporter, actually hesitated to go to the Oval since almost all experienced sports/cricket commentators were expecting a drawn match. But, I was surprised (and happy at the same time) to see how England's batting order collapsed one by one in just two sessions! I feel for Flintoff. It must be really2 hard for him to wake up tomorrow morning and face the world again after such unexpected, shocking loss. Honestly, England should not have lost the match. Even Ponting was not expecting a win. I guess in the end, just be prepared to expect the unexpected hey?
Complain about this postAustralia won because they had a clear strategy to bowl England out cheaply. They couldn't really lose, if it goes wrong, England pile on a big total and the game ends in the inevitable draw.
England's only objective was to avoid defeat, which doesn't leave an alternative if it goes wrong. They didn't really have a plan A let alone a B or C.
Seeing Collingwood scoring 1 an over while others slashed their bat round like Zorro shows no-one had a clue what the gameplan was.
Complain about this postI'm as disappointed as everyone else that England, yet again have contrived to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory(or a draw, at least) We went to Australia with an ill prepared team; Flintoff recovring from injury, Harmisson showing no pe-match form at all, but picked because he performed well 2 years ago, Ashley Giles recovering from a hip operation; then Ian Botham has the gall to call Australia Dad's Army! I am fairly certain that a random 11 residents from our local senior citizens residential home would probably have made for runs as long as somebody could hold their zimmer frames whilst they were batting!
Complain about this postI havent't seen any reports yet, but I'm sure the usual phrases will be trotted out, such as:
The lads worked really hard
The lads are really disappointed
The lads put their hands up
What about the fans who've probably been saving hard earned cash for years so that they could, at least see some sort of fight!
So many players get poor decisions,no excuse for England's poor showing in the second innings,England was beaten by a better side.It's going to be difficult to pick yourself up now,the aussies are going in for the kill.The good thing for England is you have a break to regroup and sort you final eleven out although you don't have much in the hut.My prediction for this series is 4-0 anyhow i still wish the English well.
Complain about this postWarne was picked for his bowling, and scored 43. There must be a message there.
Complain about this postEngland are simply not playing to win. They should have been aiming to knock up a quick 200, and then maybe upset a few Aussies, if not bowl them out. But they came out to block, immediately lifting Aussie morale.
What a debacle, maybe we should ask the Aussie selector to bring back Jason Gillespie as he was about as much use in the last Ashes series as Giles has been in this.
What great selections from Fletch. Why are all England selectors scared to change the line up when there are better players waiting in the wings.
Monty is being given a taste of the sort of treatment Phil Tufnell used to suffer.
Can I look forward to seeing an unchanged team take the field in the next test or will Fletcher finally wake up from the daydream of the last Ashes series and pick a team full of passion, guts and determination that is worthy of representing England.
Complain about this postThe damage done by this is surely irreparable; not just in terms of the score in the series but also for the morale of the guy who represents our only hope of taking 20 wickets. Having been overlooked twice by Flethcher in favour of an Ashley Giles who is offering nothing with the bat will have shot Panesar's confidence to pieces and with it our hope of retaining the ashes. I would love to think I am wrong about this and that he could come out and show us just how wrong it was to leave him out for the first two tests - and fair play to him if he does. Sadly though I think this would be a big ask following the clear vote of no confidence he has received from the england coach. Fletcher - D-
Complain about this postThis blog adopts the theme of the English Cricket Team - it's negative. Yes, I agree that England were "spineless, horrific, pathetic etc" as you have put in your individual posts but lets not take anything away from those marvellous Australian cricketers. The tenacity, pugnacity, finesse, and the over all proficiecy of the magnificent Aussie eleven really is a true reflection of the ever widening gap in cricketing standards between Australia and England.
It proves that the 2005 Ashes were acquired by England by chance only making it a mockery for those with OBEs and MBEs for defeating Australia by only one match in the previous Ashes series.
Australia have been thrashing the world for the last decade and have never lost their number one world ranking (even after losing to England).
Being part of the Commonwealth I think the Queen should hand over Lords to Australia or at least rename the ground to "Eat Humble Pie".
Complain about this postHats off to you Aggers for very correctly declaring yesterday that Australia were the only team who could win this test match?
I wonder how many people who were disgusted by your apparent negativity and questioned your thoughts have now written in with excuses as to why England lost?
England didn't bat like they wanted to win this match. It's a simple concept really, if you don't try to win, there's every chance you'll lose.
Flintoff's captaincy is a talking point. I think Flintoff made the right decision declaring when he did as he took the wicket of Langer on day 2 which was what he wanted. He will be disappointed with his own and several other people's performances in the 2nd innings, but the team has to wear that, not just Freddy!
As for ShashMe Miles, I don't think having Monty instead for this test would have changed the outcome. Even Warney got nothing out of the pitch until day 5, so why would Monty have done any better?
And I've seen every ball of both tests - I've just returned to Adelaide from London and haven't yet found a job - but I haven't seen any glove errors from Jones. I think you all are really scrapping the bottom of the barrel for excuses.
I think the best thing to come out of this for England so far has got to be Collingwood. Hands up who thought that he would be found out on this tour as not being able to cut it? I'll be the first....
England should think themselves lucky that Hayden, Martyn and Lee are struggling for Australia... both teams can clearly improve but I think the results will stay the same!
Complain about this postThe World Cup, The Autumn Rugby Internationals, The Ashes. Professional sport in England has too much money and not enough passion.
Complain about this postIt's not over yet, but it will take a massive mental effort from England to turn this around. They must, for the good of the game, raise their performance and restore both confidence and pride. Without it the game in England will be dead. BskyB own the TV rights but who will continue to pay if this is what they get. Additionally we all want our teams to win but we also want a contest and if England can not provide one the Ashes loses it's significance as a contest. Australia are good, England are poor, it's up to England to raise their performance - for the good of the Ashes and for the good of the English game.
Complain about this postI am not british but this is hapless. Its such a disgrace that its upturn my interest in the Ashes as i can see the defiant Fletcher going the same route. He should be scolded to the last point for this performance. Some of the batsmen made some errors that should not be found in West African cricket which is almost non existent. How do you explain Strauss continously swinging from under rather than over. Flintoff is all hype as a captain for now. The Ashes are just too big for him to handle tactically. He still needs some international games to gain experience. Fletcher keeps thinking batting wins games more than bowling, where is he from?
Complain about this postAs an Australian I'm in two minds about this victory. It is disappointing that the series now seems to be beyond England. I was hoping that the English team would take some confidence out of this match by securing a draw and being competitive over the next 3 tests. However what an absolutely awe inspiring victory by the Aussies. This should show England the power of positive thinking and self belief.
Like most Aussies I wasn't expecting victory today but I did believe it was possible. The players (esp Warne) obviously did too. It was apparent from the negative approach from the outset that England didn't believe they could win. They were even bluffed by Warne into thinking that they couldn't put the game out of Australia's reach.
So where to now for England? They must learn from Australia's Gillespie experience in the last series. No team no matter how good can carry a non-performing bowler. As good a bowler as Harmison is, he is horribly out of form. Australia paid the price for not making the hard selection decisions. England should not repeat the mistake. Whether they have a viable alternative is another question.
For the good of the series I hope they can pick themselves up and get the attitude right for Perth. If not, I'm glad I've only got Day one tickets.
Complain about this postWell, at least Duncan Fletcher et al had enough bottle to play Ashley Giles instead of Monty Panesar... OK, maybe Gilo is a second-rate bowler, but at least he can be relied upon not to drop any crucial catches, and to get a few runs with the bat when the chips are really down... er...
Complain about this postIt goes to show that during '95 everything went right for England and they were playing as well as they could. In contrast Australia had injury concerns (eg. McGrath) and were somewhat complacent about the opposition. Australia aren't complacent this time!
Complain about this postHow will we continue playing a wicketkeeper specifically picked because of his batting who doesnt score any runs! And a spin bowler who doesnt take carry any threat?
We have the best spinner we have produced for a very long time not playing when we are struggling desperately to capture 20 wickets.
Complain about this postAggers, it's called the skill gap, it's got nothing to do with being intimidated.
(Lucky we've only used the pensioners so far, isn't it?)
Complain about this postAll is not lost! Vaughan is now is better form that most of our top-order batsmen having lasted seven balls. Tresco is less likely to suddenly leave the field han Strauss or Cook, bring them back up the order! Plus Monty's average of 10.20 is much better than Hoggy's 7.60, so cast out that dead wood, and the man who will definately take 10 wickets on the last day can play! Plus last I heard Simon Jones is walking, so he may well be the fittest paceman we have! 3-2 to Vaughan and his jet-lagged boys!!!
Complain about this postWhy does Aggers ask these rhetorical questions?
England fell to pieces because there was no clear leadership and no plan. Just a simple instruction to bat out time would have done then neither Bell nor Pietersen would have been out.
Then to compound the problem when Australia batted no one said if we (England) can only make 120 and they have to get 160 we can win - and then set attacking fields.
Instead we had abject submission to Hussey and Ponting.
Root cause of loss - Giles was the wrong choice of spinner, and this isn't wisdom after the event. Everyone knew it, .... except Flether, Flintoff and Aggers.
Complain about this postFletcher and Flintoff stated that they didn't play Monty because they thought that the seamers were better when we played South Australia. How come then that out of only the 9 S. Aus wickets that fell, Monty took 2, Pietersen 1 and 1 was a run out ?
Complain about this postThis insistence that Giles is our premiere spin bowler is a bad joke and has backfired big time now. As for having him in to bolster the batting, why not give the batsmen the message that they need to hang around a bit better and play a proper bowler rather than a long hop generator that might, occasionally get us an extra 30 runs on average ?
Duncan Fletcher should take the blame for this crushing defeat. 18 months is a long time in cricket and how could he rely on Giles when he had not played a first class game in 1 year. Also Anderson also has not played enough cricket.
He has picked his favorites hoping NOT knowing that they would perform as they did in the last Ashes.
Pick the form players, Panesar and I bet he now regrets not taking Sturat Broad, with the Ashes over it would have been valuable experience for him.
Complain about this postOver 480 comments on this blog tells its own story. What a debacle.
Too many bad decisions made that make it virtually impossible to recover from 2-0 down now:
Captaincy - Strauss proved himself a better captain than Flintoff last summer. Why take it away from him - Freddie is an awesome cricketer, lets leave him doing what he does best - blitzing the Aussies, not worrying about the passengers in his team. Come to think of it, is his ankle going to stand up to 5 tests...
Spinner - Monty v Gilo. No contest. Giles is unfit, unplayed over the last year and Monty takes wickets. I'm sure he doesn't need to be protected from the Aussie sledgers and crowd!
Fast bowling - what fast bowling! Apart from Hoggard, you might as well pick my old dad - and he's 82 years old! Harmison might be worth retaining but Anderson looks like a county 2nd player. Mahmood might at least put it up them.
Wicket keeper - Read was the man in possession and in form (in tests, forget the one dayers), so why drop him. Jones has never been as capable a keeper and his displays with the bat have been inept.
KP - plays for KP; I've said it before, when the going gets tough, KP disappears - first ball sweep at Warne, completely inept - looks like Warne won the mind game after all!
Despite all this, England don't have the depth of talent to replace Vaughan and Trescothick. This team is just a shadow of the 2005 Ashes winners.
Please, please don't let it be a 5-0 whitewash, but I really fear it might.....
Complain about this postGiles + Jones when it mattered 1 run.
Complain about this postPanesar would have scored more than 1, as i said before the first test we should do the ensible thing and play:-
Cook
Strauss
Bell
Collingwood
Pietreson
Joyce
Flintoff
Read
Hoggard
Harmison
Panesar
I genuinely could not what I heard when I turned on the radio when I woke up this morning. Gutted, absolutely gutted.
Complain about this postHow they lost that game I'll never know. Listening to Boycott and JA this morning, it seems this disaster wasn't a case of the pitch doing anything spectacular, it was a case of mental toughness (or complete lack of), a poor approach and even poorer shots.
I just don't understand it 鈥 England surely would have had their tails up after batting really well and bowling much better. But no, they were plainly pooing themselves out there in that second innings.
I'm not going to go for any knee jerk stuff and blame individuals at this stage.
The only thing I would say is that if Fletcher's offering up the excuse that playing Giles means the team can bat down to eight, he's on to a hiding to nothing 鈥 taking the scores of the last two Tests into account England only bat to five!
So what now? I have no idea. I'm just thoroughly depressed.
Paul
Pathetic!!! Such a big disapointment that England threw the test away in the Second Innings when they had it in there hands to get the draw. All they had to do was to bat the day out as they knew that they were getting a draw from this test but it could've been different had Giles held onto Ponting's ball. That could've change the game more to England. Only big pluses from this match were that Paul Collingwood was outstanding in his fielding and batting and Hoggard's 7 Wicket haul. Pietersen had a good and bad test. Great First Innings of making 158 but what a complete waste of space on the Second Innings where he tried to sweep Warne. WHY!!!!???? You didn't do that during the First Innings against him!! I was surprised again to see Monty Panesar not included in the England Squad for the Second Test. Everyone was saying that they should put Panesar in for James Anderson due to that the wicket is lifeless and he is very good at making something happen, just like he did against Pakistan. Giles is still a good player but I think it might of been a bit to early for him to come back from his injury. It will be a big blow if we lose the next test as we need to attack the Australians and not just play for a draw! That's just bonkers. Flintoff and Fletcher have alot to do in the next coming weeks to sort this problem out! They have to stand up and make themselves counted!!!
Complain about this postOnwards to Perth and another defeat in the waiting. Instead of lions you have sent kittens.
Complain about this postwell, I did Warne everyone...
no worries however, we only have 2 out of the remaining 3 matches to win, remember - and a draw in the third is enough...easy
..a 606 Have Your Say debater comments:-
It's not down to the lack of talent in England's side - it's the lack of belief and leadership - perhaps Strauss should take over as captain until Vaughan returns
..that's interesting ( now see below my email to TMS three months ago, following Freddie's selection as captain !)................
12 September 2006 16:32
Dear Ts,
Complain about this postShould have been Strauss.
Think that appointing Flintoff is wrong choice and probably shows lack of vision. Best English captains Brearley & Vaughan were never dedicated match-winners like Freddie obviously is. This smacks of complacenecy or lack of drive to retain the Ashes ie. not really believing we have the energy or fight to do it. This amounts to telling the Aussies 'we're surrendering the Ashes already, here you can have them back'Why? Because the Aussies know Freddie can never amount to the Superman that the selectors are now telling him he must be. It'll backfire BIGTIME! He can never do both jobs: captain AND win matches for us which, believe you me, we will need him to do on occasions, in order to no doubt TIP THE (FINE) BALANCE IN OUR FAVOUR.
No vision, a sort of naive complacency or just no real belief in our ability to repeat the Ashes triumph a second time. Take your pick, I believe that at least one of these attitudes has fatally managed to elbow its way forward.. er, prepare to fail, I suggest (but, by muddling through, we might, just might...).
sincerely (gutted)
I believe that we lost both Test matches due to poor selection. We do not have a time machine, so we now need to look forward to what we can do in the next test. The selectors (Duncan Fletcher and Flintoff) really need to take a good look at the stats.
The bowlers have to take most of the blame. 853 runs for 6 wickets (avg 142.17) - selectors have forgotton that you need to take 20 wickets to win a test match!
- Giles has bowled to the best of his ability and has to be replaced by Monty. Monty getting the ball to turn and puting doubt into batmens head will also help the fast bowlers to get wickets. Monty is able to get some of the best spin playing batsman out.
- Anderson also played to his best ability. I would play Mahmood.
- Harmison has not played to his best ability. Maybe dropping him for one Test would do him some good! I would still play him, hoping he would come back to his best.
Name Mat O M R W Ave
------------------------------------------------------
AF Giles 2 82 9 262 3 87.33
JM Anderson 2 63.2 10 303 2 151.50
SJ Harmison 2 71.1 10 288 1 288.00
The batsmen also have to take some blame.
- Captaincy has affected Flintoff's batting, but it is too late to change that mid series. Flintoff can justify himself in this side purely as a bowler.
- Strauss has really had a poor run. I think that it is good to drop a poor performing experienced batsmen for the odd test to give him a kick up the backside and work on his technique. Ed Joyce could come in for one test.
- Jones has kept well but failed with the bat. I am not sure that Read would have done any better, but he should not have been dropped after some good scores against Pakistan last summer. I would bring Read back in and get Jones to change his batting technique.
Name Mat I NO Runs HS Ave SR
Complain about this post-----------------------------------------------------------
A Flintoff 2 4 1 56 38* 18.66 46.66
AJ Strauss 2 4 0 71 34 17.75 40.57
GO Jones 2 4 0 63 33 15.75 46.32
We needed to give Australia a confident, positive messages from the start of the series. Yet again we gave them the psychological advantage from the off.
Last time down under, our captain wasn't confident enough in his batters and put Australia in to disastrous results and the series was lost from the start.
This time, a wicket taking spinner is dropped to allow the return of an old reliable who's had no cricket in the last 12 months. Panesar might have exceeded Giles poultry return with the bat. Panesar might have held on to the catch (Ponting) which allowed Australia back into the 2nd test. Panesar is, without doubt, more likely to cause Australia's batters trouble and take wickets.
This is morning I witnessed the Old England that I have watched in countless series since Shane Warnes arrival in International cricket.
One dodgy decision (Strauss) and paralysis sets in. School boy errors (Bell), unnecessary shots (Pieterson, Flintoff and Jones), an all too familiar collapse which we all thought Duncan Fletcher had eliminated from our game.
Perhaps we need a 1981 solution. The removal of the captaincy from our star player to let him get on with his more imortant jobs and perhaps this could be Freddies or Panesars Ashes.
The eternal optimism of the English cricket supporter is still in me.
Hoping for a miracle.
Keith Bridges
Complain about this postIn my opinion England threw the game away in 3 areas.
1) Not accelerating quick enough in the first inings. We should have thrown caution in the wind. We could have been 550 all out but had a longer crack at them in the evening.
2) Hoggy was fantastic but lets face it the only reason he got SO many was because he was on his own. England cannot carry Harmy, Anderson & Giles all in the same side.
3) Not having a clear plan this morning. There was no way we were going to last long so we had to score quickly. The Aussies would have gone deffensive rather than let england set 250 and declare at tea.
Freddie has to take a lot of the blame. He let the game coast on day 3 Vaughan would have mixed the bowling up (change ends, give Pieterson an over etc etc) to try to make something happen. Also todays tactics were poor.
On the selection side I don't see why there is an outcry on the Read V Jones debate fo rm there is nothing between them Read would not have changed this test at all. It was obvious in Brisbane that this bowl attack will never take 20 Aussie wickets. Gile'o is great and to say he has played his last test is ridiculous but Monty should play.
Complain about this postNow that the dust is starting to settle, though I am bitterly disapointed to lose, lets be honest we gave the Aussies a real battle. Surely we should be praising the dogged batting of Australia and the wizard that is Shane Warne. Warne was big enough to give us high praise last summer and credit to the guy who tied up one end for 36 overs. Our batting line up did fantastic in the first inns, we know our bowling can improve. If it does I believe there can be twists to this present test series.
Complain about this postI agree completely with Aggers. For professionals playing at an elite level there can be no excuse for recognised batsmen playing so loosely.
In sport, the very best are ruthless and show good judgement. This capitulation is akin to Nick Faldo at his peak throwing away the Masters just to play dazzling shots and not play the right game to achieve the objective.
If I were Matthew Hoggard, I'd yell at each of the batsmen who fouled up: "Why should I work my backside off to bowl out Australia for you lot to play like idiots!".
Sadly, as much as I admire Flintoff, Strauss (as I thought last summer) should have retained the captaincy (in Vaughan's absence). It is plain daft for the current skipper to avoid criticising those batsmen who got it so badly wrong.
I think a more balanced bowlong attack that is more capable of taking 20 wickets is also required.
Caution, which is underminining has been made worse and more damaging by the team's inability to gain a pysholgical edge by picking a conservative bowling attack.
If there is a real champion in the England team (including the management) this is the time for him to stand up and be counted!
Complain about this postGutless and stupid. That's all that can be said about the batting.
The same could be said about the after match comments too. "The bowling was fantastic," according to Flintoff. True, but the shot selection was on the opposite end of the spectrum. Flintoff should know better. Jones' shot was abysmal in any situation, let alone the circumstances England were in.
According to Fletcher, "We want to bat to 8." Giles got a duck, took two wickets and dropped Ponting on 30. You can talk about balance until the cows come home, but facts as clear as those Giles has produced do not lie. Simply put, Giles is not contributing to the team. Nor I'm afraid, does it look like he will do so in the near future.
Fletcher also added "We were trying to be positive, and at no stage did we try and bat for time" Compare English "positive," where it took 54.2 overs to bring up the hundred (44 overs for the second 50), to Australian positive, where it only took 17.4 overs to do so. Even in the first innings, where Australia weren't so gung ho, they reached 100 in 34.4 overs.
The only step from here is to have a major rethink about the teams priorities.
Complain about this postAre you surprised?....be honest....really?
England win one Ashes series (at home and just) and an average World Cup Rugby tournament and you would think thanks to the English media that they actually produce reputable sports teams on a regular basis!
Come on.....wake up!
England, except on rare occasions, are average at best. Every dog has it's day. England is no exception! I feel sorry for them. Why does the media have to make them feel like they actually have a chance over time. Consistent results matter, not one off competitions or tournaments.
Complain about this postInward looking contract cricketers not playing with their county colleagues is the problem along with leaving the perfect stand in captain, CJ Adams and wicket keeper M.Prior in the cold. Where was Flintoff @ The C&G Final??
M Vaughan returning without serious match practice will not prevent the Australian's march for The Ashes.
Complain about this postA SENSE OF PERSPECTIVE
Before any of you Poms throw yourselves off a cliff, please remember - you've got royalty, history, an empire (or at least the remnants thereof), constant precipitation and even your own nuclear submarine fleet!
When all this is over, all we'll have is a silly urn of ashes.
Complain about this postI'm afraid the problem is that great allrounders dont always make great leaders.
Complain about this postRemember Botham?
Being an avid follower of Leicestershire CC I can only put forward one name as replacement for James Anderson and that would be Stuart Broad, Quick, Accurate and unknown by the Aussies. I can only agree with the other 200 comments on this site Panesar for Giles, Read for Jones and if fit Vaughan for Cook or Strauss neither fill me with confidence at the moment.
Complain about this postI'm afraid the problem is that great allrounders dont always make great leaders.
Complain about this postRemember Botham?
What a debacle.Have any of our players any pride in playing for their country? I dont think so. Why is Fletcher so determined to pick players who are over the hill(Ashley Giles)when we have the best spinner in England(Monty)sidelined.Fletcher should go we should rebuild the side and go back to basics.The only 2 players who should be selected automaticly for future test matches are Collingwood & Pietersen.Flintoff is not the right choice of captain & our bowlers are at best reasonable county bowlers.It is such a shambolic situation it will take a good 2 years to whipe out the memory of this last failure even if we go on to retain the Ashes(yes i live on a different planet)Somewhere there are players who can compete with the best please find them.
Complain about this postNot wishing to sound like a wingeing premiership manager but the umpiring cost us heavily. Gilo had a clear LBW yesterday and Strauss's dismissal today was a farce.
All of this matters just as much as Gilo's dropped catch, KP's swipe and Flintoff declaring at 550 and not 600 as he could and probably should have done.
In the end we only missed a draw by 3 overs. The margin of defeat is far less than it was at Brisbane - keep improving like this and who knows we might just keep the Ashes.
Complain about this postLet Fletcher have his batsman at 8 but make it Jones or Read. Flintoff at 7 which is where his performances/stats place him, which leaves a batting position for eg Joyce or even Vaughen.
Bring in Panesaar for Giles, open the bowling with Flintoff and Hoggarth and back up with Mahood or Anderson. Out ( on the next plane if I had my way ) would go Harmiston who has shown neither the commitment/guts or the ability to perform to the level for which he is being very well rewarded.
I make no comment re. the captaincy apart from blaming the " experts" who actually believed that he would be a great success.
Complain about this postDear Sir,
Complain about this postAs 麻豆官网首页入口 Cricket correspondent wasn't it your job (and that of others within the media) to hold Duncan Fletcher MBE to more account for his woeful selection policy before the first test, after the first test and now surely after this second test shambles? And, more importantly, the ECB with regards to letting Fletcher have an almost free hand to pick the England team by himself (note, not Fletcher and Flintoff's Mates XI). Please do that, earn a bit of the money we the licence fee payers feed you with and stop praising batsmen with severe technical flaws (mentioning no Collingwoods). And when people like Botham, Gooch and Chappell -to mention a few- (i.e. people who actually succeeded at Test level) are amazed that Panesar is not playing shouldn't you take that on board - even if you are best buddies with Gilo the Wheelie Bin of Spain?
I was on a long flight when England were playing, so you can imagine my shock to discover the moment I landed that they have lost in spectacular fashion. It is a different thing if they had fought hard and well but lost, but the manner in which they lost would have absolutely demoralised the team. I really don't think they can ever psychologically crawl back from this stage onwards. They are in serious danger of losing the next Test too! By that time, they will all be wishing this would all be over so they can all go home. This is so typical in English sports, whether it be Football, Cricket or Rugby Union. The team does something significant, the media needs to make a superstar out of someone and then the team goes crashing afterwards because all that glamour went into their heads. In the case of Football and Rugby, that superstar went on to become captain (due to media pressure no doubt) and look where the team is going?
And for Goodness' sake, somebody please bring in Monty!
Complain about this postDuncan Fletcher, as the Coach, owes it to the thousands of supporters who have spent so much money to follow the team in Australia, as well as the rest of us in UK, to stand up and explain his policies on selection and tactics.
I also wonder if he reads any of the comments posted and if they are forwarded to him.
Having said that, there are still 3 matches to go and there is much talent in the team. Some selection issues need to be addressed, i.e. Panesar for Giles and either another batsman or Sajid Mahmood for Harmison. Unfortunately there are no serious matches between the Tests for Harmison but we do have the Academy side there. If they are back up for the main team why not consider the reverse - opportunities for those out of form to get some match practice before the 4th and 5th Tests?
Complain about this postNot being prepared for the Brisbane Test was acceptable to an extent as we improved signifcantly in second innings and showed that we wont be bullied around by supremely talented Australian side and showed signs of returning to some sort of level we reached 18 months ago. Also, the supposed imminent inclusion of Monty for second test gave every England fan a great lift.
Every England fan was convinced after the team would build on the strong end to first test and although everyone was massively disappointed that ommision on Monty, first innings of Adelaide test gave great optimism and hope that we will not go down without a fight. Again, although the likes of Anderson and Giles did not perform in bowling as well as Giles dropping crucial catch of Ponting which would go on to define the test and probably the Ashes, everyone was convinced that the weak, inconfident, nervous England of first test had turned it around here and such were the expectations here that even a draw would have been disappointing. But everyone again looked forward to 3rd test thinking that we would look to build on the supposed imminent draw here and gain mental advantage batting whole day 5 and finishing second test strongly. Also, believing that Fletcher would leave his pride on side and give Monty and Mahmood their deserved chance and give England the attacking edge not the defensive mentality.
But as always, pride comes before fall and Giles dropped catch(supposed better fielder than Monty), refrees bad decision(due to constant intimidation by aussie bowlers) coupled with the age old problem that haunted England in Brisbane test, the mentally weak, inconfident, nervous England capitulated for just 129 - where supposedly "matured" Peitersen sweeping(yeah sweeping - not a typo) in Shane Warne's over which he avoided all first innings, ball watching Sherminator(Ian Bell) getting run out in a silly manner, and Freddy "Captain" Flintoff getting out almost immediately Pietersen to a loose and poor attempt outside offstump summed up the Ashes so far and the indication of things to come. It was time for Fletchers defensive duo - Giles and Jones to justify their inclusion and stand up and be counted but surprise, surprise they were as wasteful with bat as they were with ball and in wicket respectively.
The only shining light was Collingwood who batted for nearly 4 hours - despite no one else stepping up to the plate to form a good partnership - to give England some chance of survival. But it was always in vain as giving an easy total of 168 to win from 36 overs with such a poor bowling attack was always going to come back to haunt them and it did - to disappointment of us all England fans.
The deep disappointment and hurt caused because of such capitulation and such weakness has left most of England followers genuinely disillusioned. I am not going to stay up most/all night and listen to the remaining coverage not because we lost but the way it happened and the decisions that were made. But I really feel for people like Geoferry Boycott, who care more then most, as I have a choice of switching the radio off but they are there and have no choice seeing such lack of desire and such weakness.
I dont see a way they can make up for these performances or indeed if they want to. Also, I cant see how Fletcher can continue with handling this team in long term as not both one day and test teams are clueless, weak and most of all lack passion and desire......
Complain about this postA Test series winning team against Pakistan was deliberately broken up by Fletcher to get his old favourites back in. If there was any intention of bowling the Aussies out I failed to see it. Now of course it's too late, Monty and Saj will be drafted in a mtach too late and then blamed by Fletcher and the Establishment when we finally lose the Ashes.
Flintoff knows one style of captaincy - over the top and "charge" - he appeared completely clueless at times.
As for Fletcher - a poor test record and an abysmal one-day record. To paraphrase Cromwell: 鈥淵ou have sat too long here for any good you have been doing lately鈥. Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God,鈥攇o!鈥
Complain about this postI think alot of the problems stem from the fact that since the Ashes we have had three different captains - all with individual styles and the players have not had the continuity of leadership that is required wheras through all their so called crisis the Australians have been able to have Ponting at the helm restoring injured prode
Complain about this postI now think that unless Flintoff can show greater man management skills in the next couple of internationals then we have to appoint Strauss or Vaughan (if fit) to carry the team with more authority - rather than relying on "good old Freddy" dragging the team along on the back of match winning performances
It didn't work for England's other great all rounder a Mr Botham and I cannot see it happening long term with Flintoff
No - ones fault just circumstances but in order for us to mount a challenge to win back the Ashes on our soil we have to get a stronger leader
The players are good enough they just need someone at the helm who is more consistent in form and more of a man manager
Normally I am happy to accept the Aggers view as 100% on the money. In this instance though I feel that the intimidation hampering self belief is piled on by the hungry pack that surrounds the contestants. The first day at Brisbane was the culmination of the largest and longest hype known to cricket and I thought Ricky Pontings relief at the end of the day by drawing attention to it suggested "Thank God it happened to them". This test match our players finally gave in to the HERO to ZERO to HERO complex which they cannot escape, thanks to the 24 hour media circus. I thought we made one mistake. We dropped Ponting on 35. I know sensationalism sells, but I'm not buying.
Complain about this postWell, at least it can't possibly get any worse than this.
Since England have nothing to lose now, Fletcher can drop his defensive approach. We can't defend the Ashes any more - they are lost. The only thing we can do is win them back in the final 3 tests.
That means that the argument to play Giles to bat at 8 is gone. So should Giles be. He is clearly not fit enough for Test cricket bowling duties. Panesar is the more likely wicket taker, and we need to take 20 wickets every game now. For the same reason, Mahmood should replace Anderson.
I do not subscribe to the "Drop Jones" brigade. Jones' keeping so far this year has been very good. In an ideal world we would have a Gilchrist come in at 7, but no sane person can really argue that Read is more likely to fulfil that role than Jones. And in any event, why should our top 6 batsmen require this kind of insurance? Go out and do the job you were selected for! Anything that 7+ brings to the party should be considered a bonus!
The real test for Fletcher comes at Perth. The work he does between now and then, and his team selection for that match will reveal the true spirit of the man, and decide where the Ashes go.
Complain about this postGiles dropped ashes when he dropped Punter. Reminds me of Gibbs who dropped worldcup by dropping steve waugh. Look 127 runs + 168 = 295 runs lead or may be more. Monty could have spined the ball like anything on this pitch. Flintoff looks to0 immature to make decisions and will be wise if he focuses on his cricket. One of the best spin bowler for future, with all confidence is being humilated and on benches. Monty is future, giles is history. Never embrace the history, cos u forget to embrace the present and future will be a disaster.
Flintoff does not rate monty high. In the match against Sri Lanka he bowled him less n now he is out too. If it was Strauss, then he would have used monty effectively.I think flintoff wants to play whom he likes not the best ones.
Complain about this postWe have got to stop looking back
We need to win at least two of three test matches
Lets be positive if we bowl the Aus out twice we will only need 4 strike bowlers and we will need to post at least one large innings total.
We also need a captain who can concentrate on our field positions and the mental apptitude to remember the relevant tactics for each batsmen.
Hence lets play
Strauss captain
Cook
Joyce for extra batting depth or Vaughn if fit
Bell
Collingwood
Pietersen
Flintoff
Read or Jones
Hoggard
Mahmood or Harmison if his net work improves
Panesar a true test match winning spinner
We are not going to bowl out Aus with half fit under prepared bowlers like Giles, Anderson and Harmison.
Complain about this postEngland are now 2-0 down with only 3 test matches left! Thanks, James.
Complain about this postYour players are not playing for England anymore. They are playing for Duncan Fletcher the Allpowerful!! Your team has been taken hostage, your beloved captain has been brainwashed, and all your players have had their courage gene taken out of their DNA.
So can you do anything about it?
Complain about this postIm afraid fletcher and the entire england management have just about got everything it was possible to get wrong,wrong.
Flintoff hasnt been the right choice as captain im sorry to say.Hes a remarkable and brilliant player but asking him to captain aswell was folly of the highest order.Hes so thick in the action with bat and ball that it needs someone who can make detached and calm decisions.Its all too obvious his batting has been affected aswell.The arguement that he and only he could get harmison to perform has also been exposed.
Fletcher must be accountable for the undercooked state england were in at the first test.Theyve had months to think how to best prepare the side and get key figures like harmison in the right frame of mind and theyve failed horribly.
Those that supported fletchers decisions on giles,jones and anderson have been humiliated and rightly so.The "quality"of jones batting was always an urban myth,we all know everyone here could play giles and anderson just isnt test class.Why they havent given panesar a shot is a complete mystery but its too late now.
Weve lost the ashes and what really grates is the aussies have major flaws a young and well-prepared england team could have exposed.Ponting is a woeful captain but hes going to have his revenge as is mcgrath who we could have taken apart this series.
Michael Vaughan- we need you back.Simon Jones- we need you back.The ashes- were going to have to wait 3 years to get you back.misery.
Complain about this postEVERYONE SHOULD READ ANGST - COMMENT 515!
He couldn't be more right, maybe this is why they do so badly - a couple of bad hours and we start to destroy them.
Like he said we're a good team, sadly i think they were mentally exhausted today after 10 very hard days of cricket. They didn't have the energy to fight when the Aussies came at them.
But some of the comments on here are just so stupid, about dropping Flintoff as captain and so on. Lets hope they come back from this - but its going to e a massive, massive task.
Complain about this postWhen did England last win a Test Match without Monty Panesar in the side?
Answer: Trent Bridge, 2005.
What is England's record with Panesar in the side?
Answer: Played 9, Won 5, Lost 2, Drawn 2.
It doesn't give me any pleasure to be proved right. But you have to go into a Test Match with your best bowlers. We finally have a top class spin bowler after 20 years of waiting, so he has to be in the side.
Complain about this postIn this series, we have two bowlers averaging 25-30 per wicket and three averaging between 100 and 300 per wicket.
It's no good saying that finger spinners have not achieved much on certain grounds. They'll go on not achieving much if you keep on picking second best. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
For the Third Test, England must pick Panesar, give Sajid a go, drop Giles and Anderson. Then we might have a chance. Right now it's a sorry mess.
Different mentality.... Even at 551-6 we all thought, oh well this ones a draw, not a win. Wheras you all thought a win was a certainty?
Complain about this postAfter losing today the English fans are imploding instead of backing their team. I think most will agree that the England Team is hugely talented and doesn't need much fixing, so stand by them guys and give them a chance to shine... We want to see a close contest, not a whitewash! At the end of the day our opening pair have been garbage, but there is not too much noise to change them, thanks to Ponting, Clarke and Hussey delivering the bacon, otherwise it may be a different song?
As usual Agnew hits the nail firmly on the head.Words like hapless and beggars belief are so apt. Time for Duncan Fletcher to move aside. This is a bigger disiaster than Brisbane. Let's hope that Michael Vaughan is available for Perth.
Complain about this postMany people have gone o record as saying the moment they knew Austrailia had lost the ashes wasky Ponting lost his cool at Trent Bridge. How about this for a parallel - Andrew Flintoff crying on the pitch at Adelaide.
It is a well known fact that it is impossible to make rational decisions when you are emotional. If Flintoff cannot seperate emtion from his game - and he clearly can't he should resign and hand the captaincy to Andrew Strauss, hopefully enabling him to concentrate on what he does best i.e playing.
While I agree with the principle behind the selection of Geraint Jones and Ashley Giles, It clearly hasn't worked and the team appears to be in something approaching freefall. Now is the time for a good clear out. Jones and Giles should be replaced by the obvious 2 candidates while harmison should be replaced by Sajid mamood who may at least give the impression he cares. Alistair Cook is looking out of his depth, now is the time to replace him with Ed Joyce at least in the short term. being an Irishman it is highly propable he will have a stronger character then the other batsmen (Paul Collinwodd excepted) and may at least be able to offer some resistance when the chips are down.
England have lost the ashes now and will be lucky to loose only by 3. The whole ashes fiasco has been nothing but an embarassment and I feel sorry for those who have paid thousands to watch it and be humiliated for their efforts.
I trust the England team are ashamed of their performances and buck their ideas up, if only for the benefit for those who have travelled to watch them.
Complain about this postWhat can I say!!! Even as an Australian I was shocked to wake up and see we had won. I feel for the series more than anything, although I am obviously happy to see the Ashes seem to be heading back to Australia (where they belong). It will now be extremely difficult for England but I feel they are missing Michael Vaughan a man with the ability to calm the team on the field. Keep supporting your team as I'm sure us Australians are still thinking its not all over yet!!!
Complain about this postDec 13th Headline?
Charismatic All-Rounder dropped as England Captain - retains place in side
Hmmm, sound familiar!!
OK, clutching at straws but you never know.....2007 Flintoff's Ashes!
I still believe, just.
Complain about this postEVERYONE SHOULD READ ANGST - COMMENT 515!
He couldn't be more right, maybe this is why they do so badly - a couple of bad hours and we start to destroy them.
Like he said we're a good team, sadly i think they were mentally exhausted today after 10 very hard days of cricket. They didn't have the energy to fight when the Aussies came at them.
But some of the comments on here are just so stupid, about dropping Flintoff as captain and so on. Lets hope they come back from this - but its going to e a massive, massive task.
Complain about this postI have played, watched, listened to, read about and loved cricket for over half a century but I cannot remember a defeat as galling as this (Adelaide Test).
The underlying reasons for the defeat go much deeper and wider than cricket - it isn't just the likes of Jack Hobbs, Wally Hammond, Jim Laker or Fred Trueman who are shifting in their graves right now, but also the likes of Cromwell, Nelson, Wellington and Churchill.
We are not just talking of a decline in our national cricket, but of a decline in our national character - but for now, I just hope Flintoff doesn't fall back on those mushy coaching manual cliches about "Moving on" and "taking something positive from this".
Complain about this postApart from The Oval in 2005, has Giles ever done this 'job' at number 8? His Ashes average last time out was 18, so where are the stats to back up DF's argument. Monty isnt as bad a batter as people say.
Complain about this postWatched it all up till the last half hour (couldn't bear to see the aussies stroll to victory). Shane Warne bowled standard leg spin, not unplaybable spitting out off the ruff/turning square stuff. Clark bowled tight and Brett Lee bowled dross (don't beleive what aggers or flintoff said), he may have got a little reverse swing, but that didn't get him any wickets, he got his when Jones and Freddie chased wide half volleys ffs!!!
Complain about this postApart for Colly, all our batters were gutless, spineless, clueless, tacticless and are fast catching up our other overpaid, molly-coddled "sports stars" from the football, rugby, athletics worlds
Don't even start me on Ashley Giles...
If Monty isn't in the eleven for Perth and Giles is, I won't even bother watching it - and you know that's me saying something!!
Congrats OZ - england were out fought, and though i'm embarassed by their capitulation, credit must got to oz for their determination, graft and unstinting belief that they could win...
Complain about this postNever in my life I have seen such a baffling result. I now realise that playing Shane Warne is about mental stength and not just cricketing talent. In the days of Mike Athertons leadership our teams simply didn't have the ablity to match him, this team has proven it has, that is the worrying thing we play him so well for long periods. Pansear is like Warne and Murali in the way they make batsman do silly things because they know the bowler is capable of the special delievery. Giles is not match fit and Jones seems to have lost his way. Anderson gives nothing either. Mahmood has to come in, his expensive but he gives you something like Pansear and England need some something more.
One more thing, the players should begin to think that are Ashes were never their's. In the series back here he wanted to win and we didn't care how we got to that stage. We're got nothing to lost now, one more win to the Aussie's and what I said up above will be a reality.
PS
Complain about this postI have got a spare firework to stick up Harmison's backside if Flintoff wants it, what is it with that guy.
Having got over my dismay at a pitiful performance it is time for reflection. Fletcher/Freddie decided that the team who performed so poorly in Brisbane should try and improve the situation in Adelaide. Does that mean the same again in Perth. DF is concerened that he needs a 'Warne' at No 8, can someone tell him that apart from bowling, batting and fielding, Giles is more than a match for Warne. Admirable chap that Giles is, it appears that he doesnt generate enough action on the ball for Aussie conditions, that means play Panesar. If we open with Hoggard plus Harmison/Flintoff we need a 'Jones' to back them up. With his height and speed that means Saj Mahmood not Andersen. Jones or Read? I dont think it matters but DF has loused this up as well by demotivating Read and making Jones insecure. The final nonsense was the fact the batsmen were not to blame. Who was? The tooth fairy or easter bunny? If you cant score more than 1.2 runs an over I cant see who else to blame other than themselves or whoever sets the tone for the day. Now there is a point.....
Complain about this postWhen Michael Clarke at the end of day 4 said that Australia could still win the test match on this placid pitch, I thought he was deluding himself. Now I鈥檓 the one living in delusion. There seems to be a strange parallel in English sporting teams. Think back to the World Cup when Sven picked a clearly struggling Lampard and Beckham while never starting the more threatening Lennon (let alone Walcott). Clearly Fletcher has been learning from Sven. Fletcher, like Sven picks on reputation rather on current form. Panesar is a good bowler but could he have turned this test match in England's favour? Of course we will never know. Also the other painful parallel is chocking when it matters the most. The clear difference between the good and the great. Well done Australia. Still, its not over yet. We are nearing Christmas, the time for miracles!
Complain about this postPS - you still have a chance at the WACA - the wicket is rumoured to be crap for the second year in a row. So much so that there is talk of playing an extra spinner - unheard of here? If this is true it just strengthens the case for closing the WACA down, like some parties are trying to do here for the last while.
Complain about this postWhen Michael Clarke at the end of day 4 said that Australia could still win the test match on this placid pitch, I thought he was deluding himself. Now I鈥檓 the one living in delusion. There seems to be a strange parallel in English sporting teams. Think back to the World Cup when Sven picked a clearly struggling Lampard and Beckham while never starting the more threatening Lennon (let alone Walcott). Clearly Fletcher has been learning from Sven. Fletcher, like Sven picks on reputation rather on current form. Panesar is a good bowler but could he have turned this test match in England's favour? Of course we will never know. Also the other painful parallel is chocking when it matters the most. The clear difference between the good and the great. Well done Australia. Still, its not over yet. We are nearing Christmas, the time for miracles!
Complain about this postThis is truly the worst I have ever felt after a match across the course of my 15 years or so watching cricket. It's the kind of defeat which casts a cloud over the entire working day that follows it; the kind of defeat which makes it painful even to visit this website where it's particularised in all its lamentable detail; the kind of defeat which I thought this England side would never succumb to again.
I simply do not understand how one can lose only seven wickets for 610 runs and then, on the same pitch, lose nine for 70 in 43 overs! And while we're on about that, 43 overs? 70 runs in 43 overs? what in the world was going on for most of that time?
Assonine comments from Duncan fletcher, such as the hopelessly misguided plattitude about its having taken shaine Warne 86 overs to get five wickets are misplaced and wrong, and symptomatic only of the sad realisation that our very successful coach is finally bereft of ideas. Yes, it did take shaine Warne that long to come back with the return he did, but how is it that for three quarters of that time we were playing him with a stick of celery? it can't be the pitch, nor can it be a sudden change of gear in shaine Warne's bowling. The answer has to be the appalling naivety of the batting display.
For the next test, it is absolutely clear that Duncan fletcher has to ditch Jones (Who should never have returned) and quite possibly Anderson too (I don't see the point in a bowler who goes at four runs per over, can't bat and has only a brace of wickets over these two tests, I believe). Give Mahmood and Panesar a go, and restore Chris Read to his rightful place as keeper.
You know, what is so sad about this particular game is that this australian side are not worthy of the apparent mystique that surrounds them anymore. They have quality players, and to deny that would be chirlish and worthy only of the australian press, but there are weak links which england ought to, and to an extent did, exploit. the obvious one is the bowling, which is way short of where it once was, but the batting too is not the impregnable force it once was. The tragedy, in short, is that this england team has the capability of matching Australia in all departments, and pressing their resources beyond the point to which they will stretch. The only trouble is, of course, that we saw none of that today. I'm afraid to say, Freddie, that your boys ought to be ashamed of themselves by reason of today's performance alone.
Complain about this postI don't think Australia won but rather England lost. They lost out on their great chance to go in to third test with positives. I won't be too suprised if England lost 5-0. What ails England-mind you they have got a very decent test side that can match Australians.
The defining moments for me were:
Appointing Flinoff (world's best allrounder) as the captain instead of steady Struss, who did a great job against Pakistan.
Did Flectcher have a say in this. Strauss while leading against Pakistan has shown a preference to field specilists as against bits-n-pieces players.
How can you define playing Giles for his batting ?
Flectcher time has come. He needs to go. The England team is playing just as he would do - trying best to 'HOLD ON'
Complain about this postWell played Australia - and that's from a devout and devastated England fan. Ponting, Warne and Hussey et al played awesome cricket - England talked an awesome game and, for a while, flattered to deceive.
Complain about this postPound-for-pound, skill-for-skill, I think England and Australia are well-matched teams (Warne aside, that is:) . But at this level, cricket really is 95% a psychological game. It's about backbone, self belief and confidence. Pressure can do one of two things - it can blow you apart, or it can elevate you to higher and higher levels.
Australia hit the peak, England plumbed the depths. It really was amazing to see how the England players - Collingwood apart - were paralysed by fear, crippled by the spectre of defeat that loomed larger and larger as each over passed. Bloody hell, give me a hundred Boycott's any day.
Kicking out Giles, Anderson and Jones will make absolutely no difference. Australia have the wood on us, they know we're as crumbly as a powder puff pastry.
Never has a team so convincingly, so triumphantly snatched defeat from the jaws of an inevitable draw. England unravelled like one of my granny's hand-knitted sweaters. They have RUINED my day, and probably my week. I think I need counselling.
Let's be realistic - you don't get up after a beating like this. I fully expect a 5-0 drubbing - thank gawd it was on after the 9pm watershed. You can't show this sort of thing on daytime TV.
How horribly prophetic were Geraint Jones's words at the end of the fourth day's play when asked whether he was concerned about his batting form following his 1 in the first innings. "Well, we were 500 for something by that time," he chirped. "I prefer to come in when we're 5 for 50."
O dear, O dear, O Dear. Lord, please, give me strength.
After watching this mornings precedings I feel compelled to ask for the resignation of Mr Fletcher.
Fletch has added over the years quite a bit to new England and their resurgence in the rankings however the last 18 months have been nothing short of disgraceful.
Our 1day form is absymal to say the least and we are going backwards as test playing nation quicker than we rose.
To bat over 50 overs for just 70 runs on the last day of a test match when runs are just as important as wickets beggars belief. If we had added another say 1-1.5 runs an over during this mornings sessons then we would have more than likely put the Aussies on the backfoot, building pressure on them not us.
Paul Collingwood deserves massive praise for how he batted in his previous 3 innings but he must also take a large portion of the blame for us losing the test in the end. He left the lower middle order exposed and made no attempt to push the scoring along with the tail.
In summary it was painful to watch a talented bunch of players perform well behind their capabilities.
Sorry Fletch but the buck stops with you and I'm afraid to say that the time has come to 'get out of here'.
Complain about this postI can not forgive the selection of Andy Flintoff as captain. Everyone could see it was going to be difficult down under. Our bowling in particular is very poor now (esp without Monty) and our batting is fragile and will fail on average 1 in 4 times. Currently we are under performing on even this. But why put Freddie in charge? Captains are two a penny, but as captain, Freddie will no longer be able to play his natural and frankly more important role of joker and raiser of morale - not to mention concentrating on his own performance which needs to be bigger than ever currently. Instead he will have to shoulder most of the humiliation and invective coming the team's way especially as Jones and Giles will be seen as his choices. This experience will stay with him for ever and I can't see when or even how we will see the old Freddie back.
Complain about this postThe arrogance of Duncan Fletcher was there for all to see on the Sky interview post-match when asked by Mike Atherton about the decision to include Giles in the team....important to bat to number 8.
THEN FOR GODSAKE GET ANOTHER BATSMAN IN AND GET MONTY IN AS OUR SPINNER
I hold fletcher fully responsible for us being 2-0 down in this series - his ideaology has cost us the Urn and total humiliation to go with it.
The true reason Strauss didn't get the captaincy was those words uttered by Strauss as he took charge in the summer...something about being his own man and wanting a particular side to go out there and play...obviously King Fletcher didn't like being undermined...so he picked Freddie The Lap Dog to agree with everything he says.
Fletcher has to go after the series...that's for sure because we have got some promising young cricketers coming through who have not been scarred by the 2005 Ashes victory (or the MBEs offered afterwards) -and they need to play
Complain about this postI was in Brisbane for the first test and the feeling was that despite the heavy defeat there were positives for England and I felt a strange sense of confidence going to Adelaide.
I am absoultly bewildered and saddened by this defeat as I don't really see where England under Flintoff and Fletcher go from here. The selction has been wrong for both tests and I feel that Freddie's captaincy has been conservative at best and downright stupid at worst. Fletcher contiues to make excuses for the omission of Panseer by claiming that Warne only picked up 5 wickets in the match...well thats 2 more wickets than Pop Gun Anderson and Giles combined.
I firmly belived that the Aussies were there for the taking with McGrath beginning to look his age, Lee out of form and more of our players making runs against Warne. However our apporach has been shambolic...from team selection to Harmisons first ball to the catastrophy I have just witnessed in Adelaide.
I firmly belive that Flintoff needs to step aside and concentrate on his batting, which has been woeful, and that Vaughn needs to be brought in asap. Panaseer has to start in Perth and England need to play with some belief. Is it likely? After what I have just witnessed and from what i have heard from Fletcher I doubt it..
Complain about this postUtterly deplorable, to shrink at a crucial stage of a match with matters seemingly under control, to stumble towards an attempted draw rather than fight for an unlikely win.
England lost their backbone today, and I think Flintoff's words in a post-match interview should have been these, and no more - 'NOT GOOD ENOUGH'
We have a team based on three players at the moment, in Pietersen, Collingwood and Bell, and even these individuals still show cowardice and stupidity (and in one case, arrogance) at crucial moments. The remainder of the team has not shown up.
Our bowling attack is meagre. Harmison, Anderson, Giles...why are they playing? One of the first two Test matches should have seen England management taking a risk or two, and playing Panesar and Mahmood. Instead, we have Harmison whose technique has deserted him and reminds me of Elena Dementieva's and Guillermo Coria's serves in tennis fused together. James Anderson could not hit a barn door if he tried, and Ashley Giles is wet paint drying in human form. Powderpuff against the Australian batsmen.
If we lose this series, or even if we manage to draw the series, Fletcher should go. Enough of praising the Australians, show some disdain and attack them with everything we have.
Complain about this postAs an Aussie, it's been really fun reading all the posts written by you England fans. Not as fun as watching the 2nd Test, but pretty close.
Complain about this postI have to say that it was a disgraceful last day for England. These guys are professional sports men who have played together for long enough now for the sort of mistakes we saw (or listened to as in my case) not to happen. But I think that they have to look at the positive and take away from this test the fact that they outplayed the Aussies for 90% of the game.
As for Jonathan Agnews views about the match, well he's a pesemistic so and so at the best of times, lighten up John there are still three tests to be played and I think that England can win them. I would like to see Monty in the side (I think like 99% of the country) but even without him in the team I still think we (England) can win the ashes not just retain them.
As for all you doom sayers who who are posting on this blog get behind the bloody team for once.
Complain about this postEngland lose after much hype. people really that surprised?
Phrase that comes to mind is that form is temporary and class is permenant.
After the 1st innings people were saying is this the end of Warne and Mcgrath?????
Not a chance. yes England played well against them. but the second innings the pressure got the boys and Warne's experience told.
Yes i blieve gilo is a good number 8. and jones is a good wk/batsmen. but England just dont have the time to wait for them to prove this. they dont have time and changes do need to be made.
Altho Vaughan is not one of them. His captaincy is amazing but really?? back to 80% fitness is a huge doubt. what if he did come back...got injured and was out for another year.
quite a few positives came out though.... harmy altho not back to his best is slowly getting there,
Colly again showing he has the bottle to play at this level. great unblemished contributions in BOTH innings.
and only one drop significant drop in 2 tests.
Troy Cooley is the man most needed and missed by England.
Complain about this postBring on Perth and brin on some Fighting spirt for the full 5 days and not 4 1/2.
We're quick to forget how well our boys beat the Aussies last year, and that we're missing key men in a place that is very difficult to play cricket in. We also ignore how much it hurt the Aussies to lose last year, and how much they want to overturn that defeat. That said...what a shocker.
Complain about this postIts simple. The Asutralians talked about winning when it was laughable but they meant it. England didn't talk winning simply willing to settle for a draw and paid the price by loosing.
Complain about this postIf you can't beleive in youself then you deserve to lose
although it is england's selection policy that has dominated reaction, with some justification, today they completely lost the plot. No one seems to be able to handle it when the pressure is really on. Why when one or two wickets started to fall did the whole innings collapse? no one was there to make a stand...quite simply they couldnt take the pressure. This was perfectly summed up later on when pietersen threw wildly at the stumps for 4 overthrows ...it visibly crushed flintoff and the team. handling the pressure is what being a top sportsman is all about, let's see if this england team can bounce back or will they capitulate completely? look on the bright side though, we can look forward to ashley 'the ashes dropper' gilo's match winning 20 in the next match.
Complain about this postDuncan Fletcher's decision to not pick Panesar on a flat, slow wicket defied belief - I was shocked when I saw the team sheet. Anderson and Harmison were weak at the Gabba and it was obvious (to everyone except DF) that one of them should give way. We desperately needed an attacking spinner on a docile pitch that is notoriously difficult for taking wickets. Panesar was the ace up our sleeve in a weakened bowling attack.
Giles is another matter. I wouldn't have minded his inclusion as a second defensive spinner if we had Monty as a more attacking option, but I felt relying on him as the sole spinner handicapped us from the start and was a negative call.
I was also tempted to pick Saj Mahmood ahead of Harmison - a more debatable call admittedly, but Harmison's weapons are pace, bounce and height. On a flat, slow pitch he is impotent. You either need accuracy (Clark, McGrath, Hoggard) or reverse swing and although Saj can be a bit wild, he can reverse swing at pace. In fact he's probably the nearest thing we have to Simon Jones. With the steadiness of Flintoff, Hoggard and Giles, we could afford to take a chance on Saj.
As it is, apart from Hoggard and Flintoff our bowling attack lacked a cutting edge when we needed one most. Harmison, Anderson and Giles were passengers.
So selection was poor and DF must take responsibility. He's been great for English cricket, but it's passed his sell by date now. he must go.
Complain about this postAggers for you to gain any respect again you need to do what Fletcher is incapable of doing and write the following in your next blog-
"I admit i was wrong to think that a bowler who has been injured for a year, not played any first class cricket and had only a marginal impact on tests at his best should play instead of England's most exciting spinner for a generation - I understand that Panesar's non-selection has created a massive inconsistency in our selection policy which inevitably only undermines the team unity in the long term. Although Panesar may not have won England the two tests his ommision has left English cricket in much worse state than it was 3 weeks ago"
Complain about this postIt is clear that Flintoff is not a no.6 batsman, and I find it difficult to accept him coming in after Pietersen as they both seem to fulfil a similar role, ie, a big-hitting, aggressive, "impact" batsman who can take a game away from the opposition in an hour or two. When KP fails England are handicapped by the lack of a secure batsman coming in next.
Fletcher likes to think England bat to 8; another way to look at it is the tail starts at 6, as Flintoff can't be relied on to provide a steady innings, Jones doesn't score runs, Giles seems to have enough trouble getting back his bowling form, never mind batting, and then you have the no. 11s.
The problem with bringing in an extra batter for one of the bowlers is that Flintoff's bowling fitness cannot be relied upon, as was demonstrated in both Australian innings at Adelaide. As such, England cannot risk going in with four frontline bowlers simply because it's a real possibility they could be reduced to three at any time through Flintoff breaking down. I'm not sure what the solution to this is, the side is currently unbalanced, but it's hard to imagine Fletcher taking a gamble on Flintoff as one of four (though the way some of the bowlers have played in the series so far, England are effectively one or two bowlers short any way).
I hope England can put together a decent performance a Perth; a lot of the players will not have experienced a low like this, they've not become bad players because of one disastrous day, it'll be worth noting who shows resolve following this defeat.
Complain about this postWords fail me at this latest humiliation.
Selection is rubbish. Giles is NOT a test match quality spinner. He used to be in the side because we had no-one else, but now we have a BETTER spinner who the coach said was the best left-arm spinner in the world. Now we can see that this was just an empty comment and not what he really felt.
In most other team sports, different disciplines are required and people are picked based on their being the best at their particular discipline. No so with this team. When will Fletcher understand that he cannot have 11 players who can do a bit of everything ?
Batsmen should be picked to bat and bowlers picked to bowl. If those that have been picked cannot do their job then find someone who can.
Monty MUST come in for Giles. Read MUST replace Jones.
Mahmood should be given a chance and I don't think it will matter whether Harmison or Anderson is replaced as neither have shown anything like being able to take a wicket or even be penetrating.
Flintoff cannot take the sole blame because the other guys out there have been playing cricket for at least 10 years and should know what is expected of them and how to deal with situations such as they faced today.
I fervently hope that Fletcher takes a good, long, hard look in the mirror and admit that he has got it seriously wrong so far and that he must re-think his strategy of sticking with his favorites.
We need to have the ruthlessness to pick the guys to win a game and not be bothered about propping up those players who cannot perform.
That's what Australia have done time after time and they continue to perform. We don't and we are falling to pieces.
Complain about this postI have to say that the problem with the england performance was the captaincy. This was because 551 was far to early to declare becuase it is not a sco9re thatr will let u bat only once. i havre to say the monty has to b put into the team and get anderson out.
Complain about this postGiles should hang his head in shame and i would like to add that a dead duck could have caught that ball. the couldt spin a pound coin. Come in england it is time to see some grit and bottle that got us the ashes i9n the first place and if not u will crash and burn in the heat of australia. give us something to cheers us up and i have to say the media dont need to build us up to early becauase they said it was a sure fire win at 551-6 dec. what the hell is goin on. it was clear the it would never happen coz we are unalbe to take 20 wickets with the bowlers that we have got. yet again a massive let down. sort ya selfs out and if ya not committed as many of u werent dont bother going out there
The slide into defeat is astonishing. That England could not last out another 20-30 minutes and make 10-15 more runs is astonishing. Just that little bit of effort would have probably denied Australia, or at least made them have a furious chase. However, it is the 鈥榮pin鈥 put on the loss by Flintoff at every opportunity that irks. We played well except for an hour was constantly repeated. (No doubt this was the professional PR line.) Other than it鈥檚 not true, because the bowling in the second innings especially, was not up to it, it is a ridiculous statement. It is the amount of errors in that hour that is what matters. All the statement says is we made errors quickly. However, he had to say something and make it deflect away from the Lemming- like wicket sacrifice. Incidentally, I don鈥檛 think this will cripple the England psyche in the next test. Nor that there were problems with Flintoff鈥檚 on-field captaincy. I would have liked him to tell the batsman what to do before they went on the field. Yes, at that level they should know what to do. They didn鈥檛. Of the England players only Hoggard and Collingwood come out of the match well. It is astounding that a player who scores 158 in one innings can negate that in the second innings so that his performance is dreadful. But the team will come back, and come back strongly.
Complain about this postThe only thing more enjoyable than todays savaging of your team by a rampaging Aussie XI, was reading all the comments on this BLOG and the savaging of your team by YOU, the English 'supporter'. Oh yes, you proudly walk the Bulldog and wave the union jack when one of your sides actually jags something, but heaven forbid - have a bad day and don't you turn on them quick - and with big sharp knifes too. With that sort of 'support', Australia will continue to dominate in all sports for many many more years to come........
Complain about this postPlease bring them home now and stop this depressing humiliation. They weren't well prepared (Trescothick debacle and Harmison bowling); they didn't have a plan (still don't) and came simply to try to defend against the most attacking team in the world. Magrath may well get his forecast right this time. Am I reading things correctly? Did Fletcher really say we bat to 8? Was he watching the same game or test setries?
Complain about this postI nearly choked on my toast when i glanced the result through the red button..(to find the latest information press the red button) Shame the Red Button doesnt do what i always thought it was supposed to do when i was growing up and start WWIII. We may have lost the latest Battle but the War is not over. I agree with the fact that Monty has to be given his chance. Gilo who ive been a fan of through his career has to be dropped in favour of a man who lets face it has a good chance of being 麻豆官网首页入口 Sports Personality of the year such was his form in the Summer. MONTY is needed to lead our attack in the Perth Platoon..
Complain about this postI am not surprised at what has happened. After every debacle we are promised a 'bounce back'. The reality is that this England team was never upto the task. Last time around they won the ashes just by chance. Let's face it: Australia is just too good. If by any chance England does win any of the next 3 tests, they should be allowed to keep a copy of the Ashes trophy as a goodwill gesture.
Complain about this postThere are still three Tests to go.
England can still win 3-2
It stands to reason.
Complain about this postI'm still wondering why we declared. 551 didn't make me feel safe at least. Given the drubbing at Brisbane and the absolute need to avoid two defeats from two starts the primary aim should have been to bat until they dropped - 4 days if necessary. 50 more runs would have avoided defeat as it happens and 150 would have been phsycologically invaluable.
Complain about this postEngland dont have the firepower to take 20 aussie wickets in 5 days, thats the biggest problem they've got (along with a few obvious others) .The only test they've got a chance of winning is in Sydney, by which time the series will be well wrapped up and the aussies will be on the sauce!!!
Complain about this postI hope the 麻豆官网首页入口 have the guts to ask some blunt questions to the 2 Fs. They need to understand how let down and angry people at home are. Perhaps ask why no one is to blame - the batsmen aren't, the bowlers aren't - who is? We can't bat under pressure (twice now in two attempts) and only have 2 bowlers. Surely we need Monty's wickets more than Giles' runs.
Complain about this postas I have been saying all along:
out:
Giles
Jones
Anderson
in:
Panesar
Read
Mahmood
boot: fletcher
Complain about this postThe one thing I dreaded most has happened. I am not buying any excuses; flat pitch, ha ha; poor umpiring, my foot. It simply was the case of killer instinct missing. It must be the lonliest ever England team tonight. No way one can commisserate; except of course to steel oneself for the future. Public posturing is little use; one needs to be all steel inside.
Complain about this postThere isn't much wrong with the selection. The two bowling changes are self-evident. Giles has to go, and if Harmy isn't physically or mentally upto it then he should be rested. Do not go in with a second rate attack with imaginary 'shoring up the batting'.
The major flaw with this English team is their attitude. Its all in the mind. They are equal in talent, may be one or two even better. But where is the fighting quality epitomised by Warne, McGrath or Ponting? You hunt like a tiger and dont let go your prey once you have the jaws on it. What a waste of an unassailable position the English got to when KP and Collingwood were together in the first innings. It needed to be built upon in the same flambuoyant vein. What a heroic effort by Hoggy has been trashed. What will he show his grandchildren: his most magnificent effort in Ashes embellishing only a losing effort?
There will be oodles of criticism and castigation. No matter. The need of the hour is to learn your lessons and rise like a Phoenix from the 'Ashes'. ( Forgive me, the simile sounds too apt but I am not being glib). It can be done. England has to win only two of the remaining matches and draw the other. If Aussies can take two outa two, why can't the English. No rhetoric is intended, believe me. It may turn out to be the most notorious Ashes loss of our time. The Aussies may be led to believe they can trample over the opposition. No matter. Let us just put it behind us.History. Let us see the heights to which it inspires the losing team. Do not despair, the denouement will also be part of history, you bet.
ENGLAND NEEDED TO BE POSITIVE IN THE WAY THE PLAYED wARNE ON A WEARING PITCH. iNSTEAD THEY PLAYED HIM OFF THE PITCH AND ENDED UP GETTING BOWLED OR SNICKING TO THE SLIPS.
ENGLAND MUSN'T ALLOW WARNE TO DOMINATE.
SALIL
Complain about this postIs it something to do with open topped bus journeys through London? First the Rugby team win the World Cup, go on their ride to soak up the glory - and then can't seem to win a game no matter who they play.
Then the cricket team win the Ashes with fine performances from several players, take a similar ride through packed streets taking in well deserved adulation - and now do not seem to have the bottle or whatever to beat a decent village team. The skills are undoubtably there but where the H*** is the pride and the resolve.
Statistics on the relative batting performances of Vaughan, Straus and Flintoff as captain and the bowling of Freddie as captain might be interesting - as might the statistics on Harmison's bowling on all tours undertaken.
Complain about this posthe's due is some respect for his ideas. On that basis, I've taken a few moments to restructure the current England team according to his requirement that every player must specialize in at least two areas.
Strauss - Handy opening bat who averages nearly 50, but can't bowl and at best only a tidy fielder. Verdict: replace with David Sales - portly and inconsistent with the bat, but has a first class bowling average of 19 (based on 9 career wickets)
Cook - High class potential as an opening bat, but lethargic in the field and can't bowl. Verdict - must learn to bowl ripping leggies, until when he will give way to Nick Knight who might be old, unfit and past his best but I've heard he can field a bit.
Bell - Another classy batter who has the world at his feet. Fielding adequate, but can't bwl at all. Verdict: replace with the inconsistent batting of Vikram Solanki, who has 80 odd 1st class wickets.
Collingwood. The lad can bat, bowl and field. Verdict: retained, but mustn't neglect bowling duties
Pieterson - decent batter who also bowls a bit, but too irregular with the ball to warrant a place. Verdict: replace with Dalrymple, who can do a bit of both I hear.
Flintoff - Bowling excellent and fielding OK. Used to be able to bat once. Verdict: Retained, but needs to sharpen up his batting.
Jones - Does nothing well, but knows how to strap on his keeping pads and gloves and has all the flash with the bat. A true triumph of style over substance, and just the sort of barely adequate multi-dimensional player Fletcher needs to build the side around.. Verdict: retained.
Giles - Bowling: adequate. Batting: adequate. Fielding: adequate. Verdict: retained
Hoggard - Quality swing bowler, in his prime and comes complete with canny variations. England's 8th all-time highest wicket taker. Can't bat or field. Verdict: dropped for Paul Franks, the passable Notts seamer with just 300-odd career wickets at an expensive 31 - but wins his place on the basis of a first class batting average of 26.
Harmison - On his day the best fast bowler in the world. So the England camp kep telling us. They never mention his day comes round once a millenium. However, bowling inadequacies and frail confidence offset by being capable of some lusty tail end blows with the willow. Verdict: retained.
Anderson - Young swing bowler with no other string to his bow. Verdict: replace with Glamorgan's Alex Wharf, who's previous failures at international llevel only go to show that a 1st class bowling average of 37 and a batting average of 21 are no impediment to success the Fletcher way.
So my team for the third test is:
Sales
Knight
Solanki
Collingwood
Dalrymple
Flintoff
Jones
Wharf
Giles
Franks
Harmison
Sales and Knight at the top of the order will huff and puff a bit for the quick singles, but Knight will come into his own in the field and Sales will be a handy 5th or 6th change bowler, coming on as a partnership breaker when the Aussies pass 300 for no wicket.
Dalrymple at 5 adds depth to both the batting and bowling, easily making up for Pietersen's electrifying but ultimately one-dimensional talent. Franks and Wharf can pick up the load after Harmison and Flintoff have burned themselves out, and batting all the way down shuold make chasing down the six or seven hundred this attack will concede a cinch. All in all a well balanced side that accurately reflects the Fletcher way.
Good luck lads.
Complain about this postHi Jon,
Great coverage of the "test". I had tears of laughter. Shame they
don't have Mancunian rain in Oz when you really need it.
I went to bed at lunch and got up after tea and wondered why we bothered
going to Australia. Surely a courier could have sent the Ashes back
cheaper...although with less guaranteed delivery. I went to bed when
Anderson was out. I don't believe in torture. I was hopelessly
optimistic until this morning...Jones, Giles, Flintoff on crutches with
a bat....what could possibly trouble the scorers.
As for bowling the Aussies out again....spare yourself the thought.
Heroes yes, miracles....not in our team.
Gilles gets a 9-fer...yeah right. If he was to get a 5-fer we'd need 300
in the bank. A penny for Monty's thoughts? Can't bat, can't bowl,
can't field.....who am I? Hmm.
I've not played for nearly 10 years but know crap shots and attitudes
when I see them. Playing positive is one thing but that was ridiculous.
Thank God I'm not in Adelaide when the Fletch and Flintoff say "well
done chaps, good effort".
Great commentary, gave me the feeling of the event but saved me some
hours of precious sleep. My wife is wondering why I'm grumpy and dreaming of
hitting Warne over midwicket for six with a stick of rhubarb.
We'll win someday.
When the Aussies have to bat with a stick of rhubarb and bowl with
tennis balls against glued on bails.
PS
Kermit may be available to bat in the top 6 but his knee's not in great shape.
Best wishes
Stuart
PPS Disregard the above...Boycott and Athers...Hussain and Botham...Bumble...Holding....get your pads on.
You're the new top 6 as you're there..
Put Colly at 7. We've then got time to get Chris Tavare there at 8.
Are you OK at 9 Aggers, I'll go at 10 and I could bring my best mate who also doesn't know where his off stump is so he can't waft near it.
We could last til new year...sorry I forgot, David could hold the mike and coach the England youngsters about how to play offside shots AND HIT THE BALL with the full face.
I'm sure Duncan could see it as progress.
Complain about this postI seriously doubt whether England will be able to regroup after such a crushing and demoralising defeat. The hardest part to accept is that this was an improved performance on the first test in Brisbane and, barring the 5th day's abject compliance, we did not deserve to lose this test.
I have nothing against Ashley Giles, in fact I rate him as a cricketer, but he simply is not a match-winning bowler. It is highly ironic that he was brought into the side to strengthen the fielding and batting but failed spectacularly on both counts and, in reality, may have cost Enland a chance of winning the match when he dropped Ponting. I don't want to be too keen to jump on the "Monty Panesar is God" bandwagon but it has to be said that Panesar's record thus far has been very impressive and he certainly would give our attack more of a cutting edge. If there is any positive resulting from this match, it is that Duncan Fletcher and Andrew Flintoff must now surely be forced into playing Panesar if we are to have any hope of winning two tests against a world-class side. It was a positive and agressive England that won the Ashes back last year - I just hope they show up at some point. I just fear it is too late.
Finally, I would like to congratulate Collingwood on a top class match. He really showed his strength of character - how many more times will he have to?
Complain about this postHas a side ever lost 5-0 while holding the ashes?
Complain about this postWhere was Monty Panesar
Fletchers decison to stay with Giles is totally bewildering, Monty at least attacks the batsman and gets considerable turn even on placid pitches.
Yes there was a poor umpiring decison and poor shots were played but with no bite in the bowling attack were never going to win a game down under.
Complain about this postWhen Duncan Fletcher so wilfully overturned the England selectors' choice of Read and Panesar, he signalled his defensive approach loud and clear, not just to the Australians, but also to the England team themselves. The message was twofold: England must play for a series draw and 'you boys aren't good enough to select them on their merits alone.' Giles and Jones were chosen as human shields for the batsmen.
But this was the second mistake in the campaign to keep the Ashes: the first was the selection of Flintoff as captain. The argument that his testosterone-fuelled on-field brilliance could sustain them through the gruelling hours in the sun, when nothing much was happening, has been shown to be utterly fallible. Flintoff is magnificent, but nobody's' balls are that big. Better to add to the pool of flair and include the better players to spread the pressure around a little.
The team needs a captain in the dressing room as well as the field who presses everyone for the plan of action. It needs a captain to stand up to Fletcher and select class players over a defensive fudge. It needs a captain who wants to win the series, not just draw it.
The Australians took the upper hand in this test match at the end of the third day when they talked confidently of their plans to win it. Compare this to England's pathetic 'hopefullys' and obvious conviction that a draw was all they could achieve.
Fletcher has to go and Vaughan should return as Captain as soon as possible.
Complain about this postWhat is it with the England team selectors when they go and pick players for a test match that they know are not playing their best or have hardly played any cricket for months. Why is Ashley Giles getting picked ahead of Monty P. who is a relative unknown to the Aussies and who, I'm sure, could cause them plenty of testing moments? And let's be honest here Freddie isn't really fit is he or would his ankle be playing up again now. As for Chris Read what did he do wrong to lose his place to Dropsy Jones? It looks to me more and more that the current England team is being picked based on what was achieved in the summer of 2005 not on who is 100% fit and in form now.
Complain about this postSo Duncan Fletcher insists on batting all the way down to 8. May I therefore suggest the following XI for Perth?
1. Strauss
2. Cook
3. Bell
4. Collingwood
5. Pietersen
6. Flintoff
7. Vaughan (capt)
8. Read
9. Hoggard
10.Harmison
11.Panesar
Not overly keen going in with only 4 regular bowlers, but freeing Flintoff from captaincy duties and giving Vaughan the Brearley role (i.e specialist captain) would still give us a better chance of getting 20 Aussie wickets.
Taking a trip down memory lane, at Edgbaston in 1981, England just used 4 bowlers, Willis, Botham, Old and Emburey, and bowled the Aussies out twice. Emburey crucially taking 6 wickets in the match.
Of course, I doubt my XI would get picked. Fletcher will stay loyal to Flintoff as skipper, Giles and Jones will be retained - although he may just bring in Panesar for Anderson as a sop to his critics.
Shame.
Complain about this postI can not understand why a team batting first in a test match ever declares its innings - they have a tired attack to keep bowling at them - and every run foregone in a first innings must inevitably have to be made again by the batsmen if the side batting first has to win - perhaps under much more adverse conditions later on in the second innings. (ruling out the ridiculous assumption that they could get an equally talented batting side out under the conditions twice for under the declared total)
I think some hit and giggle has got into the English pretend test match 3 day affairs (sorry if thats not right now) where captains seem to think they are under personal obligation to ensure a result. But Test match cricket is sterner stuff and any captain that gives up his first innings advantage when there is still time for a result either way is crazy in my view. Only declare, if ever, after you have certainly secured a draw eg at 700 or 800 - ideally when to continue only weakens a chance of your own victory. From a PR aspect, the bowling side is as much to blame for the draw as the batters anyway
Complain about this postI see a lot of people on here arguing for Anderson, Giles and Jones to go with Panesar, Read and Mahmood (or Plunkett) to come in. That's all well and good, but are they going to be able to do the business now. Panesar and Read were probably expecting to play when they got on the plane to Auz, so must be very low on confidence having not been picked. Also, they are now woefully short of match practice.
I guess the next two practice matches will show us how the team management is thinking.
We have lost two tests already, and in all likelyhood at least one of the remainder will be a draw. That leaves us the chance of winning two, however unlikely that may seem. All we can do it forget putting out a defensive team and go for broke. Put out a team that can win a match.
Mahmood can bat, so can fill the number 8 position. Read deserves the chance he should have been getting already, and Monty may actually take wickets.
I don't actually care who wins the ashes, but I want to see closely fought competitive games with the balance changing throughout the match. So far, despite the occasional good session, England have been dominated, and have constantly allowed the Aussies to get on top.
Complain about this postOK, I'll say the unsayable if no-one else will: this team simply isn't CAPABLE of bowling Australia out twice. Respect to Hoggie for bowling them out once for a mere 513 in just under a fortnight, but let's be realistic.
Not since Simon Jones completed an on-form fast quartet has that been the case and that's how we won the Ashes.
The ONLY way to retain the Ashes now is to work out a way of bowling Australia out twice.
All other criticisms of this performance are details and idle mud-slinging.
Complain about this postHi Jon,
Great coverage of the "test". I had tears of laughter. Shame they
don't have Mancunian rain in Oz when you really need it.
I went to bed at lunch and got up after tea and wondered why we bothered
going to Australia. Surely a courier could have sent the Ashes back
cheaper...although with less guaranteed delivery. I went to bed when
Anderson was out. I don't believe in torture. I was hopelessly
optimistic until this morning...Jones, Giles, Flintoff on crutches with
a bat....what could possibly trouble the scorers.
As for bowling the Aussies out again....spare yourself the thought.
Heroes yes, miracles....not in our team.
Gilles gets a 9-fer...yeah right. If he was to get a 5-fer we'd need 300
in the bank. A penny for Monty's thoughts? Can't bat, can't bowl,
can't field.....who am I? Hmm.
I've not played for nearly 10 years but know crap shots and attitudes
when I see them. Playing positive is one thing but that was ridiculous.
Thank God I'm not in Adelaide when the Fletch and Flintoff say "well
done chaps, good effort".
Great commentary, gave me the feeling of the event but saved me some
hours of precious sleep. My wife is wondering why I'm grumpy and dreaming of
hitting Warne over midwicket for six with a stick of rhubarb.
We'll win someday.
When the Aussies have to bat with a stick of rhubarb and bowl with
tennis balls against glued on bails.
PS
Kermit may be available to bat in the top 6 but his knee's not in great shape.
Best wishes
Stuart
PPS Disregard the above...Boycott and Athers...Hussain and Botham...Bumble...Holding....get your pads on.
You're the new top 6 as you're there..
Put Colly at 7. We've then got time to get Chris Tavare there at 8.
Are you OK at 9 Aggers, I'll go at 10 and I could bring my best mate who also doesn't know where his off stump is so he can't waft near it.
We could last til new year...sorry I forgot, David could hold the mike and coach the England youngsters about how to play offside shots AND HIT THE BALL with the full face.
I'm sure Duncan could see it as progress.
Complain about this postIf I read another Aussie poster saying, 'Just face it you poms: the only reason you lost is cos the Aussies are just so bloody damned good' I think I'll vomit!
Complain about this postWhen is that miserable "coach" Fletcher ever going to admit he was wrong.
Complain about this postGiles the bowler got in ahead of Panesar due to his batting and fielding. Well he can't turn the ball, has yet to score over 25 in the series and dropped "the catch"
Jones v Reed. Jones must have some tasty photos of Fletcher, there can be no other explanation.
His and Freddie's "stonewall, everything is fine, we can take positives out of this" answers are wearing thin. There comes a time when they should stop protecting their team, who are adults, and tell them as it is.....they blew it !
I'm disgusted by this lifeless performance by England. They were full of life and aggression in beating Australia last year, now the rigor has set in and they are so tense and unsure of how to play, it beggars belief. Surely, that is the fault of the coach and, to a lesser extent, the captain. Duncan Fletcher has got selection and tactics all wrong. He took the plaudits and rightly so when beating the Aussies, now under his indecisive charge England are a team with no belief and he must consider his future after this series. Unless, that is England can pull the phoenix out of these particular Ashes. But there's more chance of Skippy being named Sports Personality of the Year than that happening.
Complain about this postback to the bad old days of players not picked on merit giles has become the new croft,anderson the new ealham the list goes on. no monty captaincy that is below the standard of park cricket. whoever is responsible well done you have returned us to the days of athertons cronyism era in 2 matches.
Complain about this postNow the world knows what had long been feared:
DUNCAN FLETCHER IS THE SVEN GORAN ERIKKSON OF CRICKET
Complain about this postUnbelievable! I have just read the quote from Fletcher and he is still defending his selection of Ashley Giles! I feel like starting a petition and sending it to him about how strongly people here feel. Has he completely lost the plot? If Monty is not picked for the next test I think/hope Fletcher will be looking for a new job.
Complain about this postTalk about jobs for my friends! Flintoff needs to have the sense to tell Fletcher that Monty needs to play. However, we are talking about a captain that will play Jones no matter how appauling he is.
I was very happy at the weekend, and the strong England performance was certainly one reason for it. After last night I am now depressed and the wife is hiding all sharp objects.
But why wallow in misery and attribute blame? "Failure isn't about falling down, failure is staying down."*
The Ashes are as good as lost now, let's face it, and the current XI is not the right one to play the last three matches.
We now need to look to the future and take some risks with some less defensive choices: if we don't attack and take risks, we will lose worse than 2-0; if the risks don't come off, then at least some young players will benefit from the experience.
I would like to see the following changes for Perth and thenceforth:
- Vaughan has to come back in. I don't care if he bats with a runner, makes 3 and 0 and sits in a chair at mid-on - his country needs his leadership. If he cannot make it, then please ask Strauss to take over the captaincy. That will bring the best out of him, and Freddie, and most likely the rest of the side. Freddie is anyway now an injury doubt for the rest of the series, so the coach should take away any uncertainty as quickly as possible and assign a new captain. Freddie's injury provides the perfect excuse to relieve him of the captaincy without losing face.
- Pietersen and Collingwood need to combine as our back-up bowlers. Freddie is one place too high and should come in at 7 given current form and lack of match practice. Vaughan should bat 3 and Bell should move to 6 where he had such success against Pakistan. If Vaughan cannot play, Joyce should come in at 3 or 6.
- It is time now for Jones to make way for whoever is expected to be England's main wicket-keeper for the next 5 years. If that's Read, fine; or Prior; or Foster. We have to look to the future, and Jones will not be there for the next 5 years whatever happens. His keeping's fine now and he can bat, but he's been guilty of very poor shot selection and I'd prefer somebody with more limited ability who can play to the situation, a la Collingwood.
- With four main bowlers (including Flintoff if he's fit), Hoggard is a shoo-in, Panesar now has to play as he is the future spin-bowling choice, and then it has to be either Harmison or Mahmood. To me that's the most difficult choice and I can see cases for both.
People will say playing the extra batsman is negative, but that's what Australia do. If that is what it takes to get Panesar into the side, then I'm all for it; and it would also allow Vaughan back in. An alternative would be to bring in Vaughan for the unlucky Cook and play both Harmison and Mahmood. But if you have two spinners (Panesar and Pietersen) plus a medium-pacer (the under-used Collingwood) who can give the seamers a rest, then you should only need three seamers.
Time to look to the future. I hope our selectors can do that now.
(Marillion, "Rich")
Complain about this postThis has been the 9/11 of English cricket, when the aussies have smashed the delicate citadel of pommie cricket and done it almost irrepairable damage. If there was anything worse then the game, it was the lack of honest post-match analysis, as Fletcher (one of the main culprit's) continues to defend his choice of Giles (who literally dropped the Ashes urn), James and Jones...etc. Get rid of this pompous manipulator, some of the passengers on this team...........and yes, the fluffy first names ASAP !!
Complain about this postThe intimidation is at the top. Panesar should have been picked for his bowling just as the lacklustre Harmison and Anderson are. They are as deficient with bat and in the field as Panesar might prove to be, but he should be picked ahead of them both on current form. Giles, of course, did more to prove this right with his drop in the outfield and his duck in the second innings, but he is not the problem - picking him ahead of Panesar is. I'd like to see them playing together, with Panesar attacking and Giles doing what he does best, lots of overs and lots of negativity to frustrate the opposition. If we're looking for batting, pick Dalrymple and Panesar together and drop both Anderson and Giles.
Complain about this postSome very good points Aggers.
An awful capitulation from England. Really did roll back the clock to the bad old days.
Giles really does have to go. He is averaging 87 with the ball in this series. Monty averaged 30 against a Pakistani attack that included Yousuf.
We really do need to strengthen our mental resolve in situations like this.
Is it about different sporting cultures in England & Australia I wonder?
Complain about this postJust a comment regarding those calling for the head of Giles.
For this series he is 4th in the batting averages (above Strauss, Cook, Flintoff) and 3rd in the bowling averages (Harmison has 1/288!).
So if you are going to want him dropped, what about all the rest below him? :-)
Complain about this postI thought I would get into the Christmas spirit and distribute some chocolate OBEs so all the kiddies could have one.
Complain about this postI'm an Aussie in the UK and have to say that I greatly enjoyed last years series and was happy to see England claim the urn in such a fantastic series (though you'll forgive me for not hanging around for the celebrations at The Oval).
However, I have been saying the same thing for the last year through all of the awards, accolades and postage stamps. England were 3 runs from a whitewash when they nearly threw away the second test in 2005. Losing that game would have destroyed England, and I fear that that is exactly what has happened today.
Here's hoping that they can pull something off and make this a tight one yet.
Fletcher should put Joyce, Shah, Key and Solanki batting at 8,9,10,11. (keeping present 1-7). all can turn their arm over if required, and depth in batting is obviously key to success in Tests.
Complain about this postThe only person to bleme for this defeat is Duncan Fletcher - he has to go!.
He is so defensive and negative that his whole attitude rubs off on the players and makes them nervous and jittery when there is no need to be.
The Australians are full of confidence and play like they can't lose. We must take a lesson out of their book and be positive and attack.
Would the Aussies have played Giles and Jones instead of Panesar and Read? I don't think so! Loyalty to players is one thing but blind stupidy is another altogether.
Get rid of Fletcher before it is too late
Complain about this postI am totally gob smacked at England performance. When Ashes were returned to England ,the team went OTT on the celebration.
Complain about this postThe Aussies returned home but were coaching and learning from their mistakes. Getting ready, physically & mentally. To be a top team like the Aussies you have to the same passion and drive, a fighting spirit.
I switched off the TV when Peterson got out so stupidly. Shane Warne is the magician for Aussies. This is a disastor. I feel sorry for the barmy army fans.
England lost the 2nd test because of Naseer Hussian's interveiw with KP in which he said that KP did not play any sweep shots in the 1st test and in the 1st innings in this test match,what does KP do play that shot 2nd innings and gets out.
Complain about this postGreg wrote: it is worth asking exactly what Fletcher has actually achieved. The parallels with Sven are disturbing.
----------------------------------
Oh dear.
Complain about this postA disgraceful performance by the batsmen. I was hoping the batsmen would play for a draw but the way in which they capitulated was atrocious. The bowlers bar Freddie didnt fare any better, how weakly and meekly they bowled and allowed Australia to walk all over them. The management need to have a rethink. What was Ashley Giles, Geraint Jones and James Anderson doing on the field? Giles is a spinner, where are his wickets? Bring in Monty, Read and Mahmood for the next test if they stand a chance to even put up a fight
Complain about this postHow long before we select our entire bowling attack based on their batting averages as we do with our wicket keeper and spin bowlers
Complain about this postWhat chance of a peasant's revolt and a big vote for Monty in the Sports Personality poll on Sunday pushing the supporters message down the selectors' throats?
Complain about this postAll very true Aggers. But you also need to look at the bowling and say how did we only have a first innings lead of 35? The fact is that Anderson and Giles should not even be on this tour. Shine has even said himself that both are trying to remodel their actions and i quote, "relaernig to bowl from scratch". Great time to get them to do that - in the middle in an away ashes.
The management have no clue. Same old story of picking favourites, not in form players. Hope you don't still stand by your comments that Giles should play. If he lines up in the next test then Fletcher needs shooting. The sooner he goes the bettre for English cricket.
Complain about this postFletcher has lost his bottle (and probably his marbles). Last year he made the positive decision to drop in form stalwart Graham Thorpe for the exciting Pieterson then un tested at test level - arguably a bold, positive and brilliant selection after his match saving and Ashes winning 158 at The Oval.
Now Fletcher seems stuck in the past. He treats Chris Read badly (for a second time) and brings back defensive, old buddy Giles who hasn't played ANY cricket for a year at the expense of the "world's best finger spinner".
Read will never be a Test number 7 but then neither will Jones. Read will always be the better keeper. Read has done everything asked of him, scored hundreds at county level, played 2 tests against Pakistan made his highest test score and averaged 42.
No tests later and some poor one day batting appears to have cost him his test place. Giles is picked as we "want to bat to 8" - what, 8 a.m. ? It might be nice if we batted as far as 6 !
One thing Adelaide has proved no matter how many runs you make unless you have the bowling armoury to capitalise you will lose. England tried to compete with Australia with 2 bowlers. in any other profession Harmison and Anderson would be sacked. Giles could have a bowl at all 11 Australians and he wouldn't get them all out by the next Ashes series.
Complain about this postIsn't it ironic that England lost this match due to failure of Giles and Jones as batsmen. They weren't the only culprit but you certainly expect your number seven and eight to show some grit at that stage. Hoggard, Harmison and Anderson showed more grit than Giles and Jones. May be Monty in place of Giles could have saved this test through his batting. Another ten overs or a few more hits and it could very well have been a draw. May be Monty in place of Giles could have won the match for England by taking the catch that Ponting offered in the first innings.
Funnily, Mr Fletcher took all the credit after day four praising the character that was displayed sesion after session. Harmnison was praised for not being awful. Anderson was praised because Hoggard was successful.
When England toured India last year, I thouight Pietersen and Collingwood were the only ones who had guts to bat under pressure. That certainly seems to be the case now even though Pietersen can't be relied upon to make good decisions all the time. I don't understand why English supporters show more support to Bell and Cook than Collingwood.
Complain about this postI coldn't agree more with nick(comment 423).This is the starting XI we need for the next test.The only thing i fear now is that, will monty be able to play his natural game if he is selected after all the drama!!
Complain about this postMy head says we have lost the ashes for this time but my heart says smthing else! let's pray my heart wins!
PS: Does anyone know if vaughn ready to come back yet?
Let's be honest. If you have a good batting line-up, you do not need Giles at number 8. If you need him there to make 20-odd runs, then you ain't got the batting line-up. Why would you drop Monty after last summer? - an "unknown" for the Australians who would have been haunted by the modern-day Bedi semblance!
Complain about this postAm I the only english person who noticed that this is actually a wonderful Australian team who are far better than us?
We are outgunned in every department and fought really well in this test and got beaten by an exceptional test team as good as any in our lifetimes (and I include the West Indian teams of seventies and eighties).
We are trying to beat a team that is far better than us and tinkering with Giles or Panesar will not suddenly make us as good as them.
Give our team a break and get behind them to do what they did in 2005 and raise their game to levels beyond their ability and, for once, take a good look at who we are playing and how their team has at least three players who would compete to be in an all-time World XI and the other eight aren't bad!
Complain about this postI suggest the English Cricket Tea is introduced to the words... TENACITY and DETERMINATION.
Complain about this postYou might as well take the bails off and torch them, and present them to Australia as a symbol of ... ah, you know the rest.
Complain about this postI doubt the players read these posts but if they do -
you lot are disgraceful and don't deserve to wear the shirt at the minute !!
Show some passion, show some enthusiasm and instead of talking a good game, play one..
Complain about this postI woke up this morning full of hope - was I going to see an extraordinary result? Of course I was..
Complain about this postIn my eyes the 'positive talk that spills out of the England camp has no substance. For once can we please be honest and accept that we threw away a highly promising position; Warne was excellent, but what's new? We contributed to the downfall because at the crunch moments our approach was wrong.
Duncan Fletcher AND Freddie have choosen the side for these first two Tests and should share the responsability. Jones I believe is the right pick; his keeping is far better than it was before and even C Read proved fallible behind the stumps when keeping to higher class bowlers than he keeps to for Notts. Ashley on the other hand defies all logic - he does not offer greater control! Panesar is an exciting and committed bowler who has hardly put a foot wrong in his short Test career and yet the modern (Fletcherite) principle of Total cricket has seen Giles picked for his greater batting and fielding capabilities. He dropped the most important catch of the series and should not be in the side to supplement the job of a specialist batsman.
And finally, much as it pains me to say it, but needs must. Flintoff is NOT a Test batsman. His footwork is often clumsey and he is not flexible enough to bat at the key position of six, where more often than not he is required to rotate the strike to protect our lower order. As for the captaincy I think we should reserve judgement until the (Oh so near) end of the series. He is the symbol of our side, a brutal bowler and has an infectious personality; whether his tactical awareness is of the highest level, I somewhat doubt it, but he has more than earned the right to prove me wrong.
Next Test:
Strauss
Cook
Bell
Collingwood
Pieterson
Joyce
Flintoff
Jones
Hoggard
Harmison
Panesar
It is a disgrace, spineless and a national embarrassment. Words are simpy not enough to describe the turgid lack of balls that were shown here. Paul Collingwood take a bow. He more than anyone else must wonder what sort of a bunch of floundering pussies he is involved with. In no way is this an overstatement, I am embarrassed to be English today. The crowing and laughing that will be going on wherever there are any Australians is too much to bare. The fact that they are dreadful winners, should be encouragement enough for this shower to show a bit of fight, but apparently not. If Ashley Giles can be ready play in the most important series in history after being out of the game for year, then so can I. And as for Geriant Jones............ Absolutely appalling.
Complain about this postI find strange that no one seems to remember Collingwood. And Pietersen. What a player! True gentlement (he congratulated Aussies at the end of the game, hugging them, recognising their effort) and a great sportsman. He clenched his teetch and score a double century when no one thought that is possible.
No one seems to rember that anymore. Or remember Hoggard. Or Pietersen. Because this is how you re-build your team and the basis for confidence on England's next match. Everyone is obsessed instead with mistakes made by Giles or Jones or Harmison.
I feel sorry for Flintoff. It is his first match. You should send him messages of support. He needs that. I do not recall anyone criticising him after he declared the first inning. But now...
England put up a good fight in day two and three, and the fact that the match was won in an extraordinary way by Australia is because it was so close. It was a good contest, wasn't it?
Complain about this postHERE WE GO AGAIN! WHEN WILL YOU WHINGEING POMS REALISE THAT IT IS NOT YOUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO BEAT ANYBODY AT ANYTHING I.E.ITS MORE THAN 40 YEARS SINCE YOUR FOOTBALL TEAM WON ANYTHING BUT EVERY TIME AN ENGLISH TEAM APPEAR IN ANY SPORT ITS FANFARE OF TRUMPETS AND MAKE WAY FOR THE SUPERHEROES!WHAT A LAUGH! TRY SHOWING SOME HUMILITY AND RESPECT FOR THE OTHER GUYS ACHIEVEMENTS AND THEN PERHAPS THE REST OF THE WORLD WON'T FIND YOU A LAUGHING STOCK!
Complain about this postAs a Scotsman this is quite possibly the funniest thing I've read since you lost the Calcutta Cup, or perhaps the appauling performance at the World Cup.
The pathetic performance in Adelaide to be fair, is no real surprise to us without red & white tinted glasses.
Complain about this postA traditional English batting collapse. Ah yes its just like old times. Flintoff is so not captain material and Giles is just a wreck. Surely Panesar will come in for the 3rd test? Anyone going out for the final tests would be better off just having a holiday and not bothering with the cricket. It looked like England needed a miracle to retain the Ashes before they got on the plane to Oz but now they don't even have a prayer.
Complain about this postThis is an appalling result. It's totally ruined my day.
However, we all saw this coming, the decision making has been shocking throughout. My flatmate and I have spent far too many nights trying to fathom why on earth Fletcher is making the decisions he is (despite staying up far too late, we are still searching for a clue).
Freddie is a fantastic player, but the very qualities that make him great mean he's not the best choice as captain. He's far too open and straighforward when you need devious tactics.
Panesar should play istead of Giles. I have been one of Giles staunchest defenders, but his time has passed now England have a real spinner. As someone else said, dropping your best bowler because your best batsmen are likely to fail seems like sheer lunacy. (The answer is surely to be able to rely on your batsmen? Fine players their whole match fee for hooking. That should sort a few of them out...). Oh and to all those arguing that Giles should go for dropping Ponting, that really isn't the point. There is a watertight case for Panesar over Giles. Dropping Ponting was unfortunate, and possibly a turning point in the match, but really just salt in an already gaping wound.
Having dropped Jones for Read, and Read having done nothing wrong, what on earth possessed Fletcher to reverse the decision??? the great strength of the English team in the past few years has been the faith in players and consistency of selection. Read should surely have played. Jones has proved that Fletcher's faith in his batting is largely unfounded, and Read's batting is definitely of a similar order.
Anderson has underperformed, and was undercooked at the start. However he has gone through sides before and given some more bowling, should be ok. Replacing him with someone who hasn't bowled much recently won't help much and will just add to confusion and changes in the side. It will also help to undermine the feeling of consistency and security that has helped the England side recently, as mentioned above. Keeping that while making necessary changes is crucial, especially in the aftermath of this defeat.
This is a very long post, but I feel that I've barely grazed the surface of what's wrong - and that's not a good thing! I pray for better things, but I fear there's not even that much hope on the horizon. Mad Duncan will continue to baffle with his selection and the team will suffer as a result.
Complain about this postCan this England side bowl Australia out twice to win a game i dont think it can. Simon Jones is a massive miss. I thought Stuart Broad should have taken his place not Anderson. Broad didnt make the squad (he is on standby)
Complain about this postG Jones shots to get out were a total disgrace, Read should play and Monty should also be in the starting line up be it with or without Giles.
Dear Johnathan:
Complain about this postAs I wrote befor that not just a positive tone but a positive approach on the field is required to beat Australians.England think tank and playres always talk about good game bit never have played so far.From a very good position to loose a match is just pathetic.The England players are mentally weak to sustain the pressure.There is a problem of mindsit.They are in a big trouble.My suggestion will be to go to the book and play ssensibly.
agree wit you Aggers. We should have no declared early....although we were clearly proud of our score, we saw the Aussies hit alot more on a tougher track the week before. Put the game beyond reach first........
Secondly, why the debate over Monty OR Giles. Anderson is the man to go for me. 2 spinners, 3 seamers. Plus Pietersen and Collingwood as fillers. We can then bat lower and tie up one end OR force shots from the opposition.
I think giles DID drop the Ashes however, and Perth may be the final nail....but we can hope.
Complain about this postI think a problem we have in this country is that we go over the top when we win (Bus Parade, Queen Honours etc) and we also go OTT when we lose.
With some warm up games before the next test it is now down to Joyce, Read, Panesar, Plunkett and Mahmood to make a statement that they deserve to play in Perth.
Complain about this postI'm also surprised at Flintoff's decision to declare in the first innings. I know it's easy to say with Hindsight, but surely the aussies showed how devastating the effects of a 600+ first innings can be. 551-6 with Flintoff settled in, why not slip into 20-20 mode and try to crash on another 50 runs? No one would have begrudged 551 allout.
I would also agree that England have displayed negative tactics with selecting Giles as a bataman, not that he has performed. Surely that's what the top 6 players in the line-up are there to do? These negative tactics smack of our national football team, and are having about the same level of success.
Complain about this postThis disgraceful performance underlines the error of appointing Flintoff as captain. Flintoff is an excellent cricketer, but is not experienced enough to captain the side. There is no question in my mind that Strauss would have made the better, albeit Hobson's, choice for this series.
Complain about this postOh woe! What is going on? Went to bed at 1am, everything was fine, woke up at 6:30am and it wasnt. Where to start, pray for Vaughan dear lord, pray for Vaughan! Freddie is not a good captain, the field to the Aussies was not attacking, when they were bowling at us they had men all round the bat. When Giles was bowling we had men all round the boundary! Send him home (Giles), or get KP to belt him with his bat. 3 tests to save the series. Must be changes, firstly Giles has to go for good, and give Monty a go, he cant do any worse and will certainly bowl attacking and spinning spin. He can also probably catch better now! Anderson has not been good, tho he has been out for ages like Giles. Give Mahmood a chance, I know he is wayward in one dayers, but he is very quick and the aussies have not really seen him yet. And god we need Vaughan back. Give the captaincy to Strauss too, he should have had it in the first place. Also bring back Read to keep, as Jones is still failing with the bat. Lastly pray, lots.
Complain about this postI am absolutely gutted by this sorry performance. However, I think it has been coming for a while and feel that Fletcher should be given the boot. There have been a number of poor managerial/ selection decisions:
1) Bringing Giles back into the team without a test for a year (instead of playing Panesar)
2) The Disgraceful dropping of Read for Jones (I note Jones dropped another catch on the final day today)
3) Including Trescothick in the touring party when he was clearly not well
4) Resting Harmison in the SA game
5) Arranging only 2 tour matches before the First test
5) Bringing back Vaughan when he was not fully fit
6) Batting Pietersen at 5, not 4
7) For saying after every England loss that 1 bad game/day/session does not make England a bad team
The Ashes are lost - sack him now so that the team has a chance to re-group for the next series
Complain about this postI just checked how the racehorse part-owned by Flintoff (called Flintoff) got on today. It came second.
The race an hour earlier was won by a horse called Warne's Way.
You couldn't make it up.....
Fontwell:
Complain about this post12.40: 8 Warne's Way Mr S P Jones 9-2, 5 Raslan A P Mccoy 4-6 Fav, 9 Plume D'oudairies T J Murphy 13-2, 10 ran.
1.10: 15 Jades Double Mr S P Jones 4-1, 11 Speed Winner J E Moore 3-1 Jt Fav, 8 Relative Hero S Walsh 12-1, 16 ran.
1.40: 4 Hoh Viss N Fehily 11-10 Fav, 3 Flintoff A O'keeffe 9-4, 6 Solid As A Rock T J O'brien 20-1, 7 ran.
England have been missing three crucial elements since winning the Ashes last summer: Michael Vaughan, Simon Jones and Troy Cooley. And to that list, you can now add the recent loss of Marcus Trescothick.
Vaughan is the best captain England has had, at least since Mike Brearley, possibly before. He brought confidence to his players, an astute tactical brain that totally outsmarted his opposite number, and crucially a steely resolve to win. We need him back, but we need him back fit and scoring runs.
Simon Jones actually became the best bowler of the Ashes 2005. I say became, because he seemed to develop from a useful first change bowler in the first two tests, to a terrifying purveyor of conventional and more importantly, reverse swing that the Australians couldn't fathom. He was given the ball more and more in the 3rd and 4th tests, got a hatful of important wickets at an outstanding average, and would probably have been the top wicket taker for England had he not been injured for the Oval test.
Perhaps the biggest loss, however, is Troy Cooley. England really won the Ashes due to the awesome pace attack that ran riot throughout the whole series. I have already talked about Jones, but Flintoff was of course, outstanding, Harmison, whilst not terribly effective after the first test, set the tone for the series up front, and Hoggard completely upset Matthew Hayden and any number of Australians when the conditions were good for him. But it was Cooley by all accounts who was the glue. Harmison loved him, he got the best out of Jones, and people forget that Freddy did not have great test bowling figures in his first few years, but we now think of him as our best bowler. We lost him (to Australia!) because of contract disputes. And who knows how much that has cost us, and will continue to cost us in future. We should be on our knees begging him to come back.
Without these three elements and the further body blow of losing Trescothick, I don't know why we are so surprised to be in this position. We haven't a hope in hell. But we could simply admit that we're not good enough and use the rest of the series to learn a bit more about ourselves (Panesar, Read et al). But this will of course not be allowed to happen. We will probably spend the rest of the series trying to avoid losing 5-0 rather than winning.
Complain about this post> Aussie Damo (#569):
> As for SmashMe Miles, I don't think having Monty instead for this test would have changed the outcome.
> Even Warney got nothing out of the pitch until day 5, so why would Monty have done any better?
Umm, he would have played a rather important role on day 5 wouldn't he? If he could have got near KP's economy, he would have saved the match. If he had got two or three wickets, we would have had a godd chance of levelling the series.
Complain about this postGiles should never have been picked for this or the last test match. He is an average player at best, and has played no cricket what so ever in the last twelve months. He did a job in the last ashes but that was on English pitches and without there being an obvious replacement. Now we have Panasar, someone who can actually spin the ball and take wickets. If Giles was a horse he would already be on the way to the glue factory.
Complain about this postWell we've been humiliated by the Aussies again!!! Well what do we expect, we've looked second best since we trundled out on to the oval on the first day at Brisbane!!
All the hard work from the first innings counts for nothing now, we have thrown away a test match with rash shots when all we had to do is play out time and ensure a draw. We could have gone on to Perth with some respect and some momentum.
We have to be ruthless with player who aren't performing, that what the Aussies do, they all fight for their place in the team. Our sorry lot just keep getting picked!!
Gilo hasn't played any Cricket but gets in the team, Freddie comes back from injury but bowls all day...now hes crook, Jones keeps getting out to stupid shoots, Harmisson has no form but is still picked................the series will end 5-0.
Complain about this postSickening, and no wonder the england batsmen looked bewildered, but it's nothing compared to how I feel as an England Fan.
We seemed to swing from recklessley aggressive to ultra defensive with nothing much in between. I'm getting fed up with England coming out with nice platitudes like we'll bounce back etc etc etc. We should have got a draw out of that game, and comments from Fletch to the effect of Warne and Lee were so good it's ok to be dismissed are pathetic. If we truly believe that Australia at their best are unbeatable then jump on a plane, concede 5-0 and give 'em the urn now! News flash, when playing England Australia are always at their best so we've got to be as good.
Is it also just me or is any else getting sick of Pieterson playing one magnificent innings every so often and then routinely throwing his wicket away on dumb shots? having said that though despite the undoubted quality of Australia why the hell are England wickets so cheap and worthless we give them away?
Get your heads sorted, quit talking the talk and just play good solid cricket and lets make an England wicket mean something!
Also what's the use of having a decent batsmen at number 8 if the first 7 don't do the job? and I thought G Jones's job was to score runs as well as keep wicket?
Complain about this postThe result of this game will be recorded as a 6 wicket victory for Australia, when in reality it was only 2 wickets - we chose to not use 4 of our first innings wickets. We had Warne and McGrath down on their knees at 551-6, picking runs off with ease. We could have seriously finished them off for good, inflicting psychological damage there, possibly with physical injuries, and scored 700 runs into the bargain, even if it did end up as a draw (oh for that now). Better I'd say to score the runs then than on day4/5 when Warne, and McGrath to some extent, are rejuvenated. But we took our foot off them, and let them come back and taunt us again.
This was always on the cards after this delusional declaration. Did they really think that 550 was an excellent score on that pitch? Flintoff was over generous with his declaration in the summer v Sri Lanka at Lord's. He should have learnt his lesson then.
I'm glad others have picked up on this in the postings - all the commentators I heard all thought it the right thing to do. I thought it wasnt at the time; I know it wasnt now. We wont get another chance now. The mental scars will be there again, McGrath and Warne will be even more cocky, Gilchrist will start slapping it all over the place and Ponting will now make double hundreds. The genie is out of the bottle.
Complain about this postAs safety first is bedrock of our gameplan why did we declare on 551-6? We should have put the game out of sight of any Australian victory by pushing 650.
On that wicket & with Ashley Giles our only slow option, we were always going to have to bat again late on in the game in a semi or full pressured situation against Warne.
If anyone thinks with that bowling attack we were going to get 20 Australian wickets for less than 550 they are crazy
We pick a conservative side to "bat till 8" then declare 6 down knowing well have to go in again.
Gutted & angry
Complain about this postIn test matches, not having a good start will rankle the team most often than not. England never had one in any of the 4 innings they have played on tour so far. Strauss failed in all 4 innings and the team suffered! One wonders "is there a hidden agenda here making the team pay for lost captaincy"? Flintoff is no Brearely but is not a bad captain. But one wonders at his field placing today during the Australian chase. In Test matches, the way to defend 5 an over is by having a 7-2 field and have the bowlers bowl 6 inches outside the offstump. This builds up pressure and has the batsmen try something different. There are no fielding restrictions. Why was this strategy not adopted? Panesar must have played from day one and it is indeed another defensive folly that is costing the team dear! There is only one way from here and that is up! Come on boys pick yourselves up coz' things can't get worser!
Complain about this postEngland should now forget about retaining the ashes.
It goes to show that the last year's ashes success was no more than a fluke!
The ashes has always belonged to Australia!
Complain about this postUNBELIEVABLE! Fletcher still insists that he was right to go with Giles.
We now need to win two tests out of the last three to draw the series and retain the Ashes.
If he doesn't drop the Wheelie Bin, we won't win a thing. We need wicket taking bowlers to take 20 wickets.
I'm flying out for Melbourne and Sydney. If we're 3-0 by then, even the barmy army's patience will run out with this bunch of clowns.
Complain about this postHopeless, hapless, helpless? Any of those....
Yes we need Vaughan, maybe we need Monty etc. We either can't or won't get them.
What we do (simply) need are the batting talents (Strauss, Cook, Bell, Pietersen) to bat, and the bowling talents (Harmison, Andersen) to bowl and for us not to have the only spine shown by the grafters (Collingwood, Hoggard). We also need Flintoff to be a captain - he wanted the job, it's time to earn it. And I know that he's bowling the best he can as well. (And as for Jones and Giles - forget it!)
You know what - I'm sad more than anything else. For the team who are not up to the job and for the fans, especially the 'trips of a lifetime' people who are watching in Oz.
Complain about this postEnglish sports is in a real mess full stop! If your face doesnt fit, then you are not in. You need to play for a club or county whilst the Australians have roadshows with cricket legends picking out people that look like they may have some talent. A recent advert in an Australian newspaper read "Can you play cricket? Come to the "local park" where we have set up some nets and we'll see if you are good enough!" Millions of people live in England. Is this honestly the best team? Or is it all about the face fitting? Not even Vaughan can help.....! I'm an Ozzie and even I felt sadness for Flintoff as nobody else could do anything..
Complain about this postIt's hard to see how England can recover from a position like this. There seems to be no single weak point in the team to shore up - they're faltering all over. Flintoff is working hard but I suspect simply has too much to do. The bowlers are failing and the batsmen, with the exception of Collingwood, don't give the impression of having any idea that they *can* do their jobs - nor that they particularly care about doing so.
Pietersen in particular seems to have a serious problem with his attitude, and is showing an entirely misplaced aggression alongside an apparent arrogance. He doesn't give bowlers their due and gets himself out, and gives away four overthrows on overly forceful returns when a runout isn't in the offing at all. He has talent but needs an attitude adjustment, while Harmison needs to be dropped back to his county until he learns how to bowl again.
Complain about this postToday was an absolute shambles for the England team. Jones MUST be dropped - he doesn't score runs and is not the best wicket keeper we have. fletcher saying that we need to bat to 8 is useless if we can't bowl the Australians out. We need read and Monty in the team. Also, we could do with having Mahmood back in the team (Anderson is not fit).
Complain about this postIts weired how fletcher is playin jones 4 his batting and the shot he played today!! utter rubbish, it would of been a wide! the aussies bowled well but we gave them that game and another thing is realise that all the wickets giles has took have been batsman attacking him its easy runs for the aussies
Complain about this postI'm sorry but this misery was the proverbial accident waiting to happen, and it all started with selection.
By choosing Flintoff over Strauss as captain in the first place, the selectors managed to diminish two batsmen's confidence for the price of one, Flintoff's by overburding him with responsibility, and Strauss's by taking responsibility away from him. Would Strauss the captain ever have played the first hook shot, let alone the second, in the first test?
By choosing Jones and an only recently returned Giles and an out of form Harmison over Reid and Panesar and Mahmood, two messages went out loud and clear: no confidence in England's batting - ever; predictable mediocrity will always find favour over unquantifiable potential so long as there's an England.
What would have happened to Panesar if he had dropped Ponting as Giles did or been out for zip as Giles was in the second innings?
If there's one thing that Collingwood's success has amply demonstrated, it's that application is everything, but you can only apply yourself if you're picked. Perhaps Panesar should chuck it in and go into catering: he could call it Twelfth Man Refreshments.
Nicholas Woodeson
Complain about this postTeam psychologist? Don't make me laugh. What is all this pseudo mumbo jumbo? It's not a psychologist they need but a good kick up the backside. Can you imagine the great Sir Len, Dennis,Kenny Barrington, Boycs, Botham, Gooch or Athers needing a psychologist? This wouldn't have happened if Vaughn had been there. It's about attitude. The Aussies have it we haven't.
Complain about this postTo beat Australia you generally have to score 800 runs and you absolutely have to take 20 wickets. Fletcher's selection had a slim chance of the former and no chance of the latter - every cricket fan up and down the country knew this before the match started. Giles ahead of Panesar, Jones ahead of Read, Anderson ahead of Mahmood - failure in this test was sadly as predictable as it was frustrating.
Complain about this postDeclaring on 551 - with only 6 down and surely another ton or so there for the taking! - on a featherbed like that always looked like a bad mistake. Had the boot been on the other foot Ponting would surely have batted us into the ground - and still had 3 days to get us out twice. Why expose our batsmen to a fired up Warne on a 5th day track unnecessarily?
Very disappointing performance. Collingwood must be gutted.
Complain about this postWell anyone who knows their cricket could see that coming!
Complain about this postFletcher and fred need to have a long hard look at their selections and ask themselves some serious questions.
Anderson needs to be replaced by mahmood, who can then bat at eight, read for jones, and monty for giles.
We need to win at least two tests now, an extra 20 runs from giles will not do that, we need wickets, monty will give us that. Anderson is a decent player but lacks matches and his figures show this. Mahmood is wayward in odi but has started test career well and has more pace and more agression to offer. Jones? well jones should struggle to play test cricket again after that shameful shot in the second innings.
It is just a crying shame it has taken this to happen for fletcher to (hopefully?!) see sense, and do what all true england fans knew from the very start.
Why is it that we spend a season investing in Saj Mahmood and Monty, only for the first chance we get we pick a bloke who's not bowled in a year and a bloke who'se not bowled straight for 2 years? Giles and Anderson have no form at all betwen them and Steve Harmison is rapidly turning into a joke.
What's the point in Ashley getting a "useful" 24 batting at 8 then not getting anyone out when it matters? New broom thoughout is what we need.
Complain about this postI suppose there was something in keeping faith with Anderson; the days of dropping after one test are gone, and that's what has got us to be number 2 in the world, when we used to be down the bottom. And Giles didn't do too bad in Brisbane, considering he was playing his first match back. So maybe benefit of the doubt there to the man who has helped get our cricket back together.
Complain about this postHOWEVER, after seeing Anderson lollop it up and remove all the pressure the other bowlers created, and to see the Aussies work Giles around at will, you have to say they both need to go. If you think that Panesar will bat like Anderson and Mahmood will bat like Giles, then swapping those two has to happen. Plunkett wouldnt trouble the Aussies. Mahmood could go either way - could go for runs, but has the potential to blow them away with very fast reverse swing - this from Jones is what troubled Ponting in 05 and, face it, we need to get him out. And don't forget Panesar's ability to get out Younis Khan and Mohammed Yousuf, two players on a par with Ponting, probably even better players of spin than him.
As for the wickies, its a toss up. Jones' keeping is so much better than before so its no longer a matter of calling him irongloves. Personally, I would go for James Foster...
an entire nation of 'victors' has sprung up - we DON'T belieeeeve it!
but i'm not sure the selection and the coach can be blamed that much - is it fletcher's fault - even tho' he's a dour old whatsit - that our batting collapsed like dawn french's deck-chair? i think panesar should have played but apart from this and the unavailable people (vaughan, tres, simon jones) we had our best side out there, and only collingwood and hoggard performed at their peak throughout. flintoff was good with the ball (but at what cost?) and kp outstanding in the first innings, but that's about it (bell did ok in his first dig i guess)
marks out of 10:
cook 3
strauss 4
bell 6
collingwood 10
kp 7.5
flintoff 5.5
jones 4
giles 2
hoggard 10
harmison 3
anderson 4
TOTAL: 59, average mark just over 5, no wonder we lost... you could beat bangladesh playing like that, but not australia.
i'm massively disappointed, just imagine how the poor blighters who're paying thousands to go out there must be feeling! we might somehow get lucky and take 20 wickets once, to win a solitary test, but winning two is way beyond us. i'd like to think we might 'recover' to 3-1 defeat, but 5-0 is possible...
i need a drink!
Complain about this postAggers, it's called the skill gap, it's got nothing to do with being intimidated.
(Lucky we've only used the pensioners so far, isn't it?)
Complain about this postNo surprise. England were lucky to win the Ashes last year. If my memory serves me right they came close to blowing both the tests they won and the final drawn test. If McGrath had been fit they would have lost the series.
Personally I felt the team played too much cricket after the Ashes winning series. Pakistan, India etc. They should have been treated with kid gloves and allowed plenty of rest.
Complain about this postEngland blamed the pitch all the time for not being conducive to bowlers.Where as Aussies bowlers never complained just kept charging. England had aussies on their nose but giles dropping the ashes or catch made the difference. They need some offensive bowling which Monty could have provided.Flintoff played with his captaincy and dont think he can ever dream of it again once strauss takes over. Vaughn may never recover once he plays one or two matches.
Complain about this postAt the end of the fourth day I actually thought Australia might pull off the victory. Its not like this is the first time its happened. Remember Trent Bridge and how Warney nearly pulled off the trick then. This time Warne and co actually succeeded. When the pressure is really on, England more often than not wilt, and have proved this over the last few years, and if England survive its because one batsman makes a heroic stand.
Complain about this postThe good news!!!!!!! Steve Bull is coming to town, to be honest, and help these pathetic England players,
Complain about this postit should be John Bull. But really to save the nation's
embarasment they should return home, and do what
they are good at TALKING, if there was a 5 match seriesof talking about performance by players, and
a dumb ignorant news media, we should white wash
everybody.
So where do we go from here? well sorry but most
of the cricketers, and i use that term just to descibe
what the players of the era when there was some
meaning to sport were called, have now passed on.
But ther are still players like my old friend Ken Higgs
who would consider it an honour to help with advice.
But would he be asked , No!!!!! Oh! what the hell
, I dont care anymore, there was consolation in
rugby,but!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, tell you what, why not
swop,let Robinson and his crew fly out to Aussie
and take over, they can't do any worse, or, as i
said before, send my team Knypersley from the
North Staffs League.
I am a truely depressed England Fan, I cannot believe I got up at 4 this morning to witness what was being played out in front of my bleary eyes.
Inept defensive batting, all players seemingly scared to actually hit the cricket ball caused panic and eventually the downfall of a good first innings.
Flintoff then managed to take a position that was not totally lost into a position where winning seemed just a matter of time. I think Flintoff is an outstanding cricketer, but as a captaine he just seemed to watch the events in the field pass him by. No plan was put into place to try and get wickets or stem runs, it was riduclously easy for Ponting and Hussey to just push and nudge there way to the obvious climax.
I take no comfort in saying I tild you so with Flintoff, but the burden of captaincy was too much, at has shown in his batting, his on field capataincy lacks vision or a cutting edge.
Complain about this postThe attitude of the 2 sides after day 4 gave some insight into what might happen.
England : we can only draw the match from here (eg : negative thinking; we are afraid we could lose this)
Australia : If we get amongst England early on day 5 we could maybe still win this (eg : positive thinking - defeat is not a consideration)
Australia sensed England's trepidation and went for the kill - after all, Warne doesn't do "going through the motions"- and England's batsmen played into his hands by going into ultra-defensive mode. They were about as aggressive as a blancmange.
England have a big psychological block when it comes to Australia despite the heroics of 2005, and I'm not sure that playing Monty Panesar would transform their fortunes. After all, did he not have some psychological counselling before the series started, making him a prime target for Aussie mental disintegration tactics.
I'm afraid their only chance of winning a Test Match in this series is when the Aussies have reclaimed the Ashes, had a bit too much Christmas cheer and taken their foot off the gas ie : Melbourne.
Adrian, Brussels
Complain about this postWailing, knashing of teeth, cries to sack the lot and to put Duncan Fletcher against the wall.
Will some people even learn?
The batsmen threw this away. A mixture of bad luck, suicidal dismissals and Australian determination manufactured a result where none had seemed possible. Fans have only to think that had the batsmen survived 5 overs more (for heaven's sake, how many runs had been scored for the fall of 16 wickets on the first 4 days?) and scored 20 runs more the runs/time equation would have got sticky for Australia.
Duncan Fletcher did not ask the batsmen to freeze. He did not tell Freddy to waft at a ball way outside off. He takes some of the responsability for selection (although there is a selection committee of, I believe 4, with the captain's voice predominant), but cannot play for them.
Panic. Sack the lot. Ruin team morale even further. That will not solve the problem.
For now, a couple of changes for Perth.
As I see it, a lot of the problem stems from the desperate form of Freddy with the bat. He's batting at least one place too high and 4-down has become 5-down almost immediately every time. GO Jones is also in dire form, but in all but one of his innings has come in amidst a desperate collapse. Funnily enough, the GO Jones issue could even be solved by batting him higher up the order and giving him more chance to build an innings.
Well done Australia. An amazing turn-around.
Complain about this postI am one of those who has spent a lot of money to go out over Christmas and New Year, and it appears that we will all be watching dead cricket. 2005 was supposed to have shown us that we could compete with the Aussies, but 2007 reveals that it was just an illusion, magical but fleeting.
We are back to the bad old days, and Fletcher et al cannot say that all the criticism they have received today is just moaning after the event. Why Jones and Giles have played the first two tests has been a mystery from day one. It was always going to be a big ask for Freddie to bat bowl and captain, especially when he was recovering from an injury. Steve Harmison has been on the slide for a year now. All of this was known before Brisbane.
If as we all suspect the Ashes are lost before Christmas, then let's fly in Stuart Broad and a few others from the Academy and see if we can salvage something with some new young talent and build for the future
Complain about this postThis was all about one word INTENSITY!! England simply did not come up to it on the final day. Australia are a team that never know when they are down and they showed that today through the Intensity of their performance. No excuses chaps, you simply lacked the will to secure a draw!!
Complain about this postIt doesnt matter if monty plays now. His confidence will be destroyed from being dropped. Well done to Fletcher for destroying another promising star.
Complain about this postIt's simple. Monty is a potentially very good bowler, but he alone is not going to be the saviour of the side! Look how long Warne bowled for his wickets in this game - and then most batsmen in the world are dismissed as much by his bluster as actual bowling!
Firstly, sack Kevin Shine - he is a total idiot and cannot work with Anderson or Harmison.
Drop Anderson, Giles and Harmison. If fit, Flintoff to open the bowling with Hoggard. Mahmood then to be recalled as third seamer and Panesar 2nd change bowler. We then call up Stuart Broad to bat at 8 and be fourth seam bowler.
Jones is way ahead of Read so no question.
Flintoff has to be replaced as captain as soon as Vaughan is back. if that is not this series, then Strauss must captain to relieve Freddie.
Anderson must never play for england again.
Then next summer, we should reconsider Jimmy Ormond.
Until this test Ihad been a Gilo fan - but the hundered runs Ponting scored after he dropped him was the difference in this test! Drop him and do not pick him again
XI should be (when fit in brackets):
Strauss
Complain about this postCook
Bell (Vaughan)
Pieterson
Collingwood
Flintoff
G Jones
S Broad (or Harmison at no10 when he sorts himself out)
Mahmood (S Jones)
Hoggard
Panesar
What struck me was the different mindset that Australia had compared to England in the second innings.
We were shakey at best and struggled to score even before the collapse - the first scoring ball the Aussies had was a boundary and it was this positiveness that made it even harder for us to get anywhere bowling against them. If you think you can do it, you often can!
Thank god the next test starts at 2:30am GMT, it's late enough to make me not bother to stay up and listen!
I still hope for a miracle however :-).
Complain about this postwhy on tms radio at the end of the day did you not go though the score card for all the listerners who at 8 o,clock had just woken up and put the radio on.All we got was you bemoning the loss and telling us what the spectator were doing.What happened to the good old fastioned score card so we could undersand the loss ourselves.
Complain about this postWanted :
Complain about this post11 players who believe they can win at cricket
Applications to ECB
I was brought up listening to radio and thought I would revert to 麻豆官网首页入口 Five Live for commentary, which I must say is both honest, detailed and exemplary.
Much to my dismay the last 24 hours has been nothing short of pathetic with England capitulating and the likes of Aggers and Boykers putting on a brave stance (perhaps they should have been out in the middle!).
Nothwithstanding like Rugby it is time to stimulate and motivate the players again into self-belief. Vaughan was/is a true leader, Flintoff like Beefy before him needs more independence to play his own game without having to think about the team as his main position.
It is time to move the old guard of management as with rugby.
Martin Johnson for rugby and Michael Vaughan for Cricket (including playing once fit) as head coaches.
Both are great motivators and have deep passion for their respective games.
Complain about this postAlthough the batting collapsed badly this time, the biggest problem is the bowling. They don't look like bowling this Aussie team out for less than 500. You can't win Tests like that.
Complain about this postQuite simply embarassing. There's not a lot of difference in ability between the 2 sides - it's about mental strength and we have little. They have to swap Giles for Monty and Anderson for Mahmood. It's positive and that's what we need.
Complain about this postSpineless and clueless sums up the performance.
Complain about this postFor me though it just reinforced the fragility which if you go back and look at the Ashes win in 2005 was always there below the surface. It showed itself in the second test where but for an incorrect umpiring decision our bowlers enabled Australia's final pair to get within 2 runs of a victory which would have killed that series. Then at Trent Bridge losing 7 wickets chasing a modest total of 120 ish and finally at the Oval where Pieterson's century dragged us round from another jittery performance.
England are losing test matches in their minds as much as out on the pitvh.
Outside of Panesar, fleetingly Hoggard and possibly Flintoff from the first test, the bowling available in the whole squad is not adequate to trouble Australia. Sure Anderson is not up to it, I question whether either Plunkett or Mahmood are either.
Anyway if they were any good then the traditional thing in an Ashes series is that the Australians would have labelled them as "chuckers" by now as they did with previous new England bowlers of any quality as part of their PR offensive ( any good bowler is labelled a "chucker" and any good batsman is always labelled "boring") Perhaps they don't feel they need to in this series. Although if they used the phrase "slinger" then they might be right about Mahmood
I hate to say this because he played usch a great part of our victory during the last ashes but I just don't hink Flintoff is believable as captain and the moment demands that he be inspirational. The bottom line is that while the Aussies have the motivation of winning back the Ashes to restore their pride, England seem neither sufficiently determined nor ready to defend them.
Complain about this postI agree with JA and I'd like to see the positive spin that Fletcher & Co will try to put on this shambles. Giles is ineffective and doesn't deserve to be in the side just because he is perceived to be a better batsman - his bowling is feeble - and poor old Freddy has foot problems again. We might as well bring back Vaughan for Perth - we need another talisman! Mahmood and Panesar for Anderson and Giles and we might at least put up a fighting performance. After gaining the psychological advantage by scoring such a high total in the last innings in Brisbane and then seeing Collingwood and Pietersen bat so well against Warne and Co we should have been able to maintain the upper hand, but now that's all been undone. As another correspondent has wriitten, we might as well go home. We just don't have the backbone.
Complain about this postHas anyone else highlighted another (among many) stupid thing that Fletcher said in his post match interview? He said that they came close to picking Panesar ("two spinners") at Adelaide but on balance decided that pace bowlers had looked more effective in the warm up match so went with Anderson.
This test match was ultimately decided because Australia had a bowling attack that was capable of restricting their opponents on a fifth day pitch, whereas England, demonstrably, did not (with any decent spin attack, Australia should not have scored 168 in 36 overs). So a test match was ultimately decided by the respective sides' bowling attacks on a FIFTH DAY pitch, and the selection was based on a warm up match that lasted THREE DAYS. Laughable.
Complain about this postCan not believe england had lost the match after declared at 550/6 and had us in one stage for 3/60+ [nearly 4/60+ if giles took that catch]
For the match, i think 2 spinners win the match for the aussie. No, i did not get it wrong, 2 spinners!!!! warnie give us the wicket in the 2nd innings, and giles give us 250+ run [150+run plus the dropped catch which cost 100+ runs ]
Complain about this postIt all started with very poor captaincy, declaring at
Complain about this post550 in the first innings. This was crazy. England were
always going to have to bat again with this score. It
would have been far easier to score runs at 550 for 6
with no pressure on day 2 than on the last day under
huge pressure on a roughened pitch with Warne
bowling. Although England batted badly on day 5 it
doesn't surprise me they were bowled out cheaply, but
it would never had been necessary if they hadn't made that mad declaration.
There is no way back now.Fletcher has got it all wrong.He must acknowledge that and change course.
Complain about this postThe bowlers were never going to be good enough to take 20 wickets.The pressure on Panesar now will be tremendous.I just hope he can stand up to it.This is assuming of course that Fletcher picks him.He will won't he ?
If I were the chairman of selectors I would send for any two of the following three,Caddick,Lewis or Kirtley.At least they will bowl line and length.
Selecting bowlers because they can bowl at 90 mph is a waste of time if they spray it around.
I have never felt so low because of sport as this in my life.
If you feel this passionately about something and invest so much of your own esteem in a team its incredibly hard to take when such a surrender happens.
Whatever the team that plays in Perth, I hope they all take a long hard look in the mirror tomorrow morning.
Complain about this postThe problem with English Team is a simple one.
Stop talking how wonderful you'll are. There are better teams out there.
Talk is cheap. The media does not help. You cannot win games by newsmedia.
Go and perform. England has NEVER won a World Cup in cricket but media make them as World Beaters.
The last and only time England won a World Cup in Soccer was in 1960s, but the media always harp on them as it happened only yesterday.
England be aware! Don't live in a Media Bubble.
Complain about this postFor god's sake, stop complaining about England's mental state. The selection was off. It included two bit players (Giles and Anderson) and Jones, who simply hasn't done what he is there to do. None of these players has shown any form since the last series! You can't do things like that and expect to win a close contest. It really is that simple!
Complain about this postAs soon as Strauss was given out there was only going to be one result. The game plan (if they actually had one!) went terribly wrong. Flying along at an absurd run an over for the first hour kept the Austalians in the game and ultimately lead to Englands downfull.
In both tests England have been woefully under prepared, particularly mentally which is a huge part of test cricket.
Come on boys dig deep.
Complain about this postwhat a match to lose that game is not only funny but craptastic well done australia hope this means some of the barmy army go home early so i can get tickets to melbourne test
Complain about this postIt makes me sick to the pit of my stoumach. no doubt there were a lot of lucky elements involved. Giles dropped catch and 2 umpiring mistakes. But our problem is not one of ability its psycology. They simply panic and fall apart and at this level it will be punished. Fletcher has to hold his hands up and take blame for not including Panesar. And Jones picked because he scores more runs.....!
Complain about this postInept, embarrasing, unbeleivebly pathetically spineless and down right incompetant. After the heroic efforts of Hoggard and Collingwood, the rest have let us down.
The Aussies have the upper-hand, the momentum, the belief and the desire. England have Ashley Giles..... brilliant!
P.S. I am a 14 year old who's previously optimistic view on all things cricket has been all but destroyed
Complain about this posti suggest the british public engage in a much more useful debate over whether it is even worth going onto perth? save youselves some sleepless nights of shame and humiliation. just hand the ashes over now.
Complain about this postWhat a joke of a team!
Complain about this postFletcher seems to think that by picking players who did well in the last ashes series they'll suddenly do the business again.........wrong! Harmison, Giles & Jones are short of confidence and I get the feeling they know themselves they shouldn't be in the team. If Panesar is left off the teamsheet for the Perth test then that's it I'm turning off completely!
Flintoff must go as captain. He cannot shoulder the responsibility of the capaincy and bat at the same time. What a disaster! If it was in another country people would ask if was fixed
Complain about this postI marvel at the revelation that the England team has just the one 'team psychologist'. Aggers is dead right to say that he has his work cut out for him, since he will have the England Rugby team queuing up for an appointment behind the cricketers, closely followed by every England footballer since 1966. Then, if he wouldn't mind squeezing me in, he can tell me once and for all whether it is worth my losing sleep over five days to keep in touch with my team, only to see them chuck it all away in a couple of hours. Do we England multi-sports fans have the right to ask whether one team psychologist can possibly be qualified to treat a deep psychological rot in the English professional's mindset? How many of us would admit that one of the main pleasures of wathcing KP, for instance, is that he approaches the game in such a dashed 'un-English' way! Ho hum...
Complain about this postI think they're missing Vaughan - Fred's a world-class player but I don't think he's the skipper that Vaughan is - I think he still sees himself as one of the troops standing in for the real skipper. And 'happy' Fletcher's hardly the one to engender self-belief. To me, that's what missing from this team when I compare it with last year's. I don't think Michael Vaughan's contribution to winning the Ashes was ever truly recognised - maybe now it will be. He made the team work as a team and believe in themselves.
Complain about this postWhat a complete shambles. Wasn't it somewhat premature to give this lot gongs when they won The Ashes in 2005? Will they now hand them back - they should!!
Complain about this postAfter 5 days of nocturnal existence,mind numbing tiredness during the day this has got to be one of THE low points of my cricket following life.
The first 4 days of this 2nd test offered us weary supporters a lifeline of hope and restoration of battered pride.Alas, all is now completely shattered,including my trusty old transistor which has left an ignominious dent in the bedroom wall,thrown in a moment of pique at the nadir of this debacle.
I think its easy to point the finger(s) of blame,but I think a fresh approach has to be paramount.It would be good, just this once, for the powers that be to hold their collective hands up and say 'Yes, I(we) got it badly wrong,but we're going to make a massive effort to put things right'.
Honesty can go a long way in the wake of this humiliation and I think people would respect them(management,selectors, etc) for that,if nothing else,rather than the half-cock,post-match drivel we're fed with.
Complain about this postA few weeks ago there was an article in The Times' Saturday Magazine about Kevin Pietersen.
In it, it was made painfully clear that all he ever really wanted to do in his life was make 'loadsamoney" - he actually stated this, and here's a link to the article:
Well, after that ridiculous overthrow debacle (in which he single-handedly gave the Australians 10% of the runs they required to win at that stage of the match) he might as well bugger off and pursue that goal, because he clearly doesn't take playing for England as seriously as he does the pursuit of money and glamour. I don't care how many tears players purport to shed in such circumstances as this disastrous loss, actions ALWAYS speak far louder than do words, and the actions of the first Test and the final day of the second speak absolute volumes.
England might as well return home and spend Christmas with their families now. I know we live in a throw-away society; but after this Test match, and given the experience of the England World Cup winning rugby squad, why that should extend to our sporting achievements I cannot even begin to fathom.
Still, there's always a positive to be found somewhere in these circumstances, and in this case it is that the baggage charges for the team's return journey to Britain will be cheaper to the value of whatever weight the Ashes urn is.
Complain about this postI failed to understand (and still do) why we didn't bat on in day two, score 700+ and really put the pressure on them. After all we knew we needed the batting practice. Putting them in with Harmy in such sparkling form....?
So humiliating, embarrassing, etc etc etc
Complain about this postGiles may score 30 runs per test match more than Monty Panesar but getting a couple of wickets when it matters saves a damn site more runs.
If a bowler (thinking of Monty v Giles) gets a couple of top order wickets it can be the difference between 300 all out & 500 all out.
When will Fletcher realise this rather strikingly obvious fact.
Exactly the same principle applies to the wicket keeping situation - missing a regulation chance (which Jones is prone to doing) can cost hundreds of runs in a test match.
Positively poor team selection!!!!!!!
Complain about this postI do not normally subscribe to conspiracy theories but I do wonder about the Aussie performance, or lack of same, in 2005.
Complain about this postAt least there are big crowds witnessing
Englands humiliation this winter.
We know England had the jitters in the First Test and it cost them. It has happened again here, too. England have been dining out on the 2005 series for far too long; and a 'team psychologist' is not the answer, but part of the problem. This touchy-feely mollycoddling has left them unable to fend for themselves when the pressure is on. The only psychology that counts at test level is complete and utter belief in your own ability, and the only way of achieving that is by complete Mastery of your own ability, right down to the smallest detail. They should forget about the Ashes and focus on being 110 per cent ready for the next match - through good old fashioned practice and preparation. I also believe that the effort to keep together the 2005 team for talismanic reasons has stopped them moving forward. They must play Monty and Saj for the remainder of the series and build for the future.
Complain about this posti agree with ian tysh.harmison should be dropped along with jones and anderson.the selection of jones in particular was scandalous.hoggard,pieterson and collingwood deserved better than the woeful performance of the last day.
Complain about this postWhilst England should not have lost this game, it is impossible to understand how anyone could have expected a real contest in this Ashes series. Firstly, there are too many key players who are not fit or who were returning from injuries that had kept them out of any serious competitive cricket for a long time 鈥 Flintoff, Harmison and Anderson, plus Giles (whether he is a 'key' player is debabtable). In addition, Strauss and Cook are sadly out of touch at present and a test against the Aussies is not the place to easily regain your form or confidence.
Furthermore, two players who are recent additions to the side and who have done reasonably well, Panesar and Read, have been omitted form the first two games, which I find slightly baffling. It's admirable to want to have decent batting down to number eight but England need to bowl Australia out twice and Giles does not look as if he could play a major part in that. Not to mention that the team cannot bat beyond number 4 at present, let alone no. 8!
Despite being a staunch England supporter, I think it's best that all of us are realistic and hope that we can avoid a 5-0 walloping.
Complain about this postit's no surprise really. Everyone in the press, including Aggers, was talking about how England had to hang on for a day to secure the draw, then when they try and it fails they have a go.
it was NEVER going to work. Our best strategy would have been to be positive and try to secure a winning draw, not to hang on for our lives from the first over!
our problem in this country is our pessemistic mentality, we expect to loose and do our best to bring it about. The Aussies are the best team going coz they believe they'll win at all times and don't just give up when it gets abit tough
shocking
Complain about this postI have read though many of the comments, but very few people pick up on the big first mistake. Why did England declare at 551 for 6?? That gave Australia just 352 to avoid the follow-on. Was Flintoff thinking like Pointing at Brisbane, that he wouldn't enforce the follow-on if it came along? They should have carried on to get at least 650. After such a good 1st innings, they needed to ensure they weren't going to lose this match.
Same problem and same mistake still being made as 25 years ago with Ian Botham. Why make your good all rounder also the Captain? When will selectors get it into their heads that the qualities of a Captain are totally different from those of your best player!!
Complain about this postI AM SO DISAPOINTED IN ENGLAND THEY WILL NOT RECOVER FROM THIS A WHITEWASH IS EMINENT
Complain about this postWithout wishing to go over old groun, England are trying to win a test match back to front. The first priority should be to pick a side that can take 20 wickets in a game. Injuries aside,a lot of talk is made about Giles' and Read's batting capabilities, but the question is seldom asked 'how many runs do they cost the side?'
It was always going to be a big ask to beat Australia in Australia. But if we started by putting their batsmen under some pressure, maybe we would get somewhere.
The reality is that, with the psycological blow the Australian's have struck, it will be harder now for newly selected players to make a difference.
Complain about this postWas anyone else a little suprised that England declared at 551 when Australia waited until the had 600+ on a GABBA wicket that was judged inferior to this one? With the wicket playing so well England could have given the Aussies a taste of the own medicine and posted 600+. This would have increased the pressure on the Australian middle order and almost certainly taken enough time out of the match to acheive priority number one, namely not going 2-0 down. This is not hindsight, I was truly surprised that Flintoff did not take the chance to push the score on rapidly even if it meant batting for 20 mins on day 3. Those Aussie bowlers would not of relished 3 consecutive days in the field.
Complain about this postWhat I find sad is that, over the years, too many England cicketers have been given a cap and assumed it to be a sinecure thereafter. England selectors should make it clear to each and every member of the team that their place is only safe if they perform. If we took one thing away from the Adelaide debacle, it would be to learn to emulate the steely resolve of every member of the Australian team, and especially that of their captain.
Complain about this postdisgraceful sums up most sportsmen today talk a good game offer very little in support bring them home now spare any more embarrasment
Complain about this posti know this defeat makes most of us want to just cry and give up- but one positive to come out of it is that with collingwood, i think we have found a middle order batsman with not only real talent, but excellent mental strength and battling qualities- you could argue that he should have started to push up the run rate when things were looking bad, but at least he didnt hand go up to warne and offer his wicket to him for free like the rest of them did.
Complain about this postNot its time for both Monty and especially Ed Joyce to have their opportunity to show the Aussies what they can do
Complain about this postWhile I agree that Giles drop was absolutely crucial, the seeds of the defeat were sown before the toss, with the abject team selection. We simply would not have lost this game if Panesar had been selected ahead of Giles or, more likely, Anderson. Someone needs to remind the coach that it is not 2005 and we are not in England. Sadly, I think that he is so stubborn that the team will be the same for Perth, so I would say thank you and goodnight to Mr Fletcher now. I would also say goodbye to Giles and Jones whose performances and, in particular shot selection, show that they no longer have the bottle for Ashes cricket.
Complain about this postI am one of the many bewildered who wonder how park cricket Giles stays in instead of Panesar - no need to bat to 8 if you can take wickets and bowl the oppostion out for a low score!!!
Giles is not a whizz with the bat anyway! lol
But saying England lost the match because of Giles dropping Pointing is also rubbish - its like trying to rewrite history. The events would have been different - its pointless pondering.
Face it. England didn't show the balls or the heart for the fight when it really mattered.
And watching Hamrie wonder about like a wounded bird is embarrasing. Get rid of him...get rid of Giles...get rid of Anderson...get rid of Pietersen for being such an arrogant fool against Warne! ha...hmm....better keep Pietersen I suppose...
Australias demolition job showed the difference in class and spine between the two teams.
Posted by a happy Australian in London who won't be cancelling his Sky Sports....
Complain about this postFire Duncan Fletcher right now.Get him out of bed and fire him. We don't need a coach, we need a phsychologist.
Complain about this postI have restrained myself from comment for a few hours to try and calm down but, like everyone else, my feelings of anger and sadness but not complete surprise still exist. Again like everyone else I have no doubt that collective failures in selection (of the squad not just the final team), tactics, and sheer application by most of the players, with the obvious outstanding exceptions, are to blame.
Complain about this postHowever, to return to an old hobby-horse of mine, the real route cause I have no doubt is mental strength where, again with noteable exceptions, the Aussies are significantly stronger. While we were appalling, it has to be said that the Aussie bowlers were superb today, and that we could not have done the same if the positions had been reversed.
As for a way forward, well it must be a combination of correcting the selection errors as much as we can and playing with more discipline. This means doing basic stuff well like bowling to a plan one side of the wicket only, focusing upon building partnerships, practising fielding until we are blue in the face etc. We cannot be deluded into thinking that a couple of changes to the side will make much difference in isolation. Frankly, while I sincerely hope I am wrong, unless he is really in-form and fully prepared in all respects I think Monty could get rough treatment from the Aussie batsmen and crowd and that any success he brings will be expensive both in terms of runs conceded and a mental battering. I hope he can stand up to it as to turn our fortunes round is a huge task for anyone!
I have to agree with one of the earlier messages, England are a very good team of individuals but lack direction when the chips are down. Michael Vaughan is a superb man-manager and his natural confidence rubs off, both at the crease and on the field. I'm afraid that Freddie doesn't cut it as a top class skipper, particularly when up against it. I think it was a mistake to give him the responsibility, especially after Strauss did the job so well in the Summer against Pakistan. Another thing....for goodness sake, let's play Panesar and get positive! This series is not over yet!
Complain about this postGo back to the end of day 2. Why on earth did we declare on 550 anyway? If we were on top then , we should have ground them down even further. If we could not bowl them out in two days and three sessions, we were unlikely to in three days and half a session.
Complain about this postGoodbye Urn! It was nice having you with us for a while and it was really good while it lasted!
Sigh! Those images of celebration, drinking champagne on a bus, crowds cheering and the sweet smell of success. All that now we have is stench of defeat, injuries, Harmison's wide balls, Giles dropped catches, Monty's absence, Freddie's tears and Fletcher's strategic planning!
God save the English Team.
Complain about this postNil desperandum.
Complain about this postTwo wins and a draw and the pot comes home.
Aussie over confidence will be their downfall.
Perth will prove me right.
All this nonsense about Paneser being the messiah of English cricket makes me laugh.
Yes Giles is not playing well and Panesar deserves his chance but he's hardly a Shane Warne type match winner.
England lack bottle at all levels and THAT effort was pathetic for a side ranked 2 in the world rankings.
Back to the drawing board for Mr Fletcher and Co.
They should draw inspiration from their Football and Rugby team. OOPS theyre rubbish as well.
Complain about this postGod Bless Englands rubbish coaches at all sports.
I now understand that when Fletcher called Panesar "the best finger spinner in the world", it was a criticism, not a compliment.
Complain about this postHere in Trinidad on holiday and happy to have seen an improvement after the first test and sleeping well in the sure and certain knowledge that a draw was unavoidable and we would have put some demons to rest it has been with some horror that we have viewed the result.....it seems that the precedent set by the so called national football team has started to become the norm.....i don`t doubt the desire to win and the effort to try to do so, but the senseless way of applying the skills is concerning, viz particularly Peterson. Such a pity as now it would seem that the series could be dead.Hopefully not...bt what a loss is Vaughan...a Martin J0hnson loss in effect.
Complain about this postsome people never learn, when they throw it to you you have to hit it away.... if you dont do that your bound to lose :@)
Complain about this postAs a Scotsman it gives me no pride to watch England collapse in such a spineless manner.I genuinely thought England would be at least competitive however the Aussies will now feast on the rotting carcase that is English cricket.The English players seemed to be standing back and letting Freddie win it for them however he looked like a broken man as the embers were going out on Englands 2006 Ashes defence.
Complain about this postThe problem, of course, is that Fletcher will never drop Giles (picked for his fielding!) or Jones (having offered a token rethink of Read).
Question: how big an aberration, then, was the Ashes win for England given their performance under Fletcher otherwise?
Complain about this postWhen KP scored a century against Murali he was hailed as great player of spin and figured out how to bat against Murali But Murali went on to dismising him cheaply for the next five innings winning the battle. Same here now with Shane Wrne. He was hailed as he figured out the greart spinner after one good inning. Then comes the clean bowled fist ball by the great. These spinners are world beaters for a reason. KP is an infant yhas to do this more consistantly before he can be called great.
Complain about this postThe problem with the team is that Fletcher always thinks he's right, and the more he hears views opposite to his from outside the England camp the more stubborn he becomes, so Fletchers stubborness and his and Flintoffs loyalty to the Ashes winning players has harmed the team.
Although i do not think Panesar is the saviour of English cricket like some fans, Fletchers argument that Giles is needed at number 8 is ridiculous, to win a test match 20 wickets are needed and Giles even when he's fully fit is never going to bowl a side out, he's always been a defensive bowler.
Jones place in the team can only be down to his popularity amongst the sqaud and his friendship with Flintoff, this is the only explaination i can come up with as Read is the better keeper and would surely score at least as many runs as Jones.
Harmison must also be dropped as his form even over the last 2 years has been erratic, and even though there was a slight improvement in this match he needs a kick up the backside to get him back to his best, as it looks like he thinks he has a job for life. Look what the Australians have done with Brett Lee, they had no hesitation in dropping him when his form dipped yet Harmison seems untouchable.
Lastly i would also like to blame Nassar Hussain for getting KP out, when he questioned him on why he had not swept Warne in the 1st innings it was obvious that KP's ego was dented as Nassar implied that Warne had won that battle, so the very next ball he faced from Warne he swept and missed. The moral of this story is do not dent KP's ego because as well as being a strength it is also his biggest weakness. Silly Nassar ;).
Complain about this postTime for Fletcher to receive his P45. Bad selection decisions and poor preparation.
Complain about this postI support a football club that is going nowhere(Bristol City) a cricket county doing the same (Somerset) yet I thought England would buck the trend for me this winter!
Complain about this postOH DEAR let down again.
Well, what can I say besides hell hath no fury like a champion Aussie cricket team on the warpath.
I know there is nothing more detestable to an Englishman than a gloating Aussie, rest assured I feel your collective pain. Remember 2005?
Alas this was bound to happen. The poms should have known better than to take the Ashes from us. Here's to another 20 years of heartache and deplorable English performances!
Dad's army indeed! And I seem to recall DF saying something about Warnie not posing a threat?! On yer bike Fletch!
Complain about this postWe have absolutely no chance of winning a test, never mind the series, as long as we have a tail that begins at 6, and a bowling attack that would struggle in the County chamionship.
Also, can anyone explain, why we have a selection system, where a panel of selectors choose a squad, and then pack that squad off to the other side of the world, to be left in the capable hands of a coach who, it is obvious, does not rate, at least, 2 of that squad, and refuses to play them?
Would Steve McLaren allow a group of 'selectors' to choose his squad for him, for a major championship, potentially leaving him with players he has no intention of playing?
Complain about this postVery flaky. If England are going to stand and fight Australia, let alone beat them, the following team needs to play:
Key (Academy; a fighter )
Complain about this postStrauss |Last chance saloon |
Cook | " " |
Bell * All three of them *
Collingwood(C) * useful change *
Pietersen * bowlers *
Flintoff
Read
Hoggard
Mahmood
Panesar
After ten hours of "How did England manage to lose that?" reverberating inside my head, I now think I can post an unemotive critique.
Top level cricket seems to be more and more about psychology rather than talent, at the most critical times. On too many occasions did England lose the battle of the minds.
Although England may have won with an English "Warney" defending 160+ in the 4th innings rather than poor old Giles, it would have been unlikely as the heads were so down from the second Ponting was dropped.
After that it was a simple case of "We've let them off" and this influenced the rest of the match for England.
The simple fact is that England lost because they let the sledging and pressure and to some extent talent, of the Aussies overwhelm them at important moments especially 2nd innings batting, when a bit of Northern grit (i.e. Collingwood) was desperately required.
I feel for England now, if they avoid 5-0 then they will have recovered a substantial amount. 5 new bowlers might help.
Complain about this postit's no use everyone slating Ashley Giles as some sort of Leper of Sodom.
The Australians were magnificent, dynamic, full of self belief. They batted brilliantly and bowled and fielded with concentrated venom.
by contrast, with the admirable exception of Collingwood, Hoggard, and perhaps Pieterson all that was English turned into a pillar of salt.
Complain about this postUnbelievable is often quoted in a sporting context - but this time it is justified. The turnaround in this match and the agonising defeat of England was self-inflicted. Sport is often played in the mind - and this time England were mindless.
Complain about this postI believe that England's collapse is due to a lack of leadership and team ethic. Although the batsmen who failed are all senior professionals it should not be assumed that the captain does not need to tell them what (or what not) to do. Before starting the second innings, Andrew Flintoff should have laid down three rules:
1. Don't play at anything more than a foot outside off stump before you have scored 50.
2. Don't sweep at Warne.
3.Don't call for any quick singles. If anyone gets run out you can expect the hairdryer treatment.
Any player disobeying instructions could then suffer sanctions. One can imagine that when Pietersen said "Sorry, skipper", Flintoff probably said something like "Never mind, better luck next time" in response. He should have been in a position to say "I told you not to sweep and you swept at Warne's first delivery. If you disobey my instructions again you will be dropped".
Complain about this postthe dropped catch from Giles was disturbing in itself as I would have made us favorites to win. Whether it is bad form or not he could have been blamed for turning the best chance I have seen for a win into a draw but as for losing. The only players who came out of the match with any respectability were Collingworth and Hoggard, the rest should be pretty ashamed of themselves. We were even talking of an unlikely England win after the follow on was avoided. That is the difference between us and the Aussies we do all the talking while they do all the playing. It is very embarassing!! They have to bring Monty in now for the good of the series.
Complain about this postI do not agree many people in this forum blaming the declaration. Remember this, after the declaration, england had the aussie for 3/60+ [ nearly 4/60 if giles hold that catch]. I think 9 out of 10 captains will delcare if they know the outcome.
Complain about this postThe reason for England lost is not dued to the declaration, but the poor attitude display in their second inning [both batting and bowling]. And why aussie wining??? Because that they have never lost the will to win..... This is the main different!!!!!!
Surely it must be time for Fletcher to go?
Complain about this postIt seems to me that if you featured in the Ashes win in 2005 then your place in this team is guaranteed, regardless of your form or the amount of cricket you have played over the past year. The problem with Giles and Harmison is exactly that, not enough overs bowled in the last twelve months to reach the peek of their physical or psychological form. Now we even have rumours of Vaughan getting a start despite being out for a year!
We need to select players that are in form and capable of taking twenty wickets in a test. But even that has to be coupled with self belief, an efficient game plan, inspired leadership and a hunger to retain the Ashes. None of of which were seen on the final day of the Adelaide test.
What was Flintoff thinking about declaring in the first innings. England were never going to win on that surface as there bowling is powder puff. Giles couldn't turn milk and Harmison is not the bowler he was. Did Freddy honestly think Australia wouldn't score heavily on that surface when they have arguably the best bat in the last 20 years in there line up (Ponting).He should never have declared and went to Perth 1-0 down and wait for a result pitch.
Complain about this postEngland have real problems, Freddie had a cortisone injection before he bowled and was in tears at the presentation read into that what you like, I think he will be on a plane home. Giles is finished he is not efective as an offense bowler or even as a defensive bowler.
Duncan Fletcher approach to the ashes series exposed after the defeat of England by four wickets at Brisbane.
Complain about this postAggressive approach to every test is the name of the game and England should try to put Australia on the back foot.
Sajid Mahmood should be in the attack alongwith Panesar who would both bring variety and aggression to much awaited Aussie slump by these two bowlers who are at their peak and now seems sidelined by Duncan and his selection committee.
after the abject performances in the first 2 tests I hope most team members will give back the gongs they were given last year. Hoggard and Collingwood were exceptional with Pietersen & Bell (first inns) putting the others to shame
And if Jones is a choice than Chris Read, maybe Read should give up playing cricket
Complain about this postThere is nothing to do than agree with Aggers. The batting was inept and there appears to be little prospect of ever taking 20 Australian wickets. I must admit I was fearful before the series began but it seems unlikely, unless the weather intervenes, that England can avoid a whitewash. We are clearly intimidated by the Aussies but frankly they were made to look pedestrian in the first innings and one wonders that if england had batted on for 600, and had the likes of Monty Panesar bowling, whether the psychological barrier of getting 400+ runs to save the follow on might have been more problematical to the Aussies. Equally, if England had batted on Freddy might have been able to secure some valuable batting practice.
Complain about this postThat was bad.. very bad. But to cap it off, out comes Flintoff saying how good the Aus bowling was, just like the 'stuck record' classic line: "we can take a lot of positives from this game."
God...
How about admitting the batting wasn't good enough and you wafted at one outside off stump when anyone with half a brain would not have. How about admitting it's not good enough, that's the only way to move on.- it's like listening to a politician.
And don't even get me started on Giles.
Terrible.
Complain about this postThe England collapse did not surprise me at all. I was in the pavilion at Trent Bridge when England beat Australia last year--JUST. Once a couple of wickets had gone down the English batsmen were like rabbits in Warne's headlights--frightened out of their wits. Why? To my mind it was tension from the coach which spread through the team. Doubtless Mr Fletcher is an excellent technical coach but perhaps we should look closely at his man management techniques.
Complain about this postI've watched many England collapses over the years but nothing beats this utterly dismal, pathetic display of collective weakness. Just as Nasser's decision to insert Australia in Brisbane last time spoke volumes of the fear and negativity in the team, so too did the manner of England's batting today. Even schoolboy teams know that the only way to play for a draw is to be positive. At this level you can't sit on a 'one nil' lead.
Wrong team, wrong captain, wrong tactics and definitely the wrong coach. This just demonstrates how much Vaughan contributed last year.
Where was the chairman of selectors when he was needed to take charge? Sack Fletcher now and get new management in before real damage is done to the few who still believe in themselves.
Complain about this postDuncan Fletcher, you're a genius! Giles - wonder player! Harmison - keep up the good work! Jones - you're IT! Freddie - best captain since Ahab!
There should be NO changes in team personnel, administration, tactics or outlook!
Keep with it!
Hahahahahahahahohohohohohohehehehehehehahaha
Complain about this postFire Fletch. Start all over again.
Complain about this postWhy are people singling out KP. If it wasn't for his 158 in 05' we might not have been defending the the ashes to start with. Yes he threw away his wicket but there were worse players on the field ie Anderson, Wheelie bin, Harmison, Cook & Jones
Complain about this postHad Monty played in place of Giles and done exactly the same!!! Had he dropped the vital catch, scored a duck in the second innings and given away easy runs, he probably would have been banned for life.
He should certainly play the remaining tests in the series. He should have played the first two. But he is not Warne and Aussies are better players of spin, so please keep the expectations down a little.
Complain about this postIt is a shame that England could not force a draw.
Complain about this postThey way a few batsman palyed and gifted their wickets almost defies one imagination. All the good work of the Ist innings was brought to nought by the mindalee and reckless second venture.
Let's hope Monty turns up on Thursday week:AND BRINGS THE 8TH ARMY AND THE DESERT RATS WITH HIM! El Alemain anyone?
Complain about this postI personally think this was all about attitude towards the game itself, when the Aussies had taken a beating in the field, Collingwood and Peiterson had put on a great show, what did the Aussies's say? " That's a fine innings, now we'll have to go out and get 700 so we can win it" Brash maybe but when you here the other side to it and here "well, we shouold get a draw from this one" it sums it all up....Show some belief!!!
Complain about this postWhat an absolute disgrace.. i had a presentation to prepare for today and so went to bed for an early night last night expecting to wake up to a draw. What a shock to hear the news this morning.
Anyone want an XL cricket top free to a good home? Im almost ashamed to be a fan of english cricket now. What really annoyed me is the fact that the amazing performances by KP, Colly and Hoggard in thw first innings have been undone.
I hope DF enjoys the next couple of weeks in the job as I reckon it will be his last.
Last nite on the bbc i read "ladies and gentlemen, it is my duty to inform you that giles is not spinning the ball". His selection is absolutely ridiculous and giles should be dropped straight away. Under no circumstances should he be selected over Monty (who has been shortlisted for sports personality of the year).
Likewise Jones should be dropped. Brought in for his batting ability and yet he has given his wicket away every single time this series. Get Chris Read back now. Better keeper and can knock up some runs too instead of GoJos mindelss antics.
Like someone mentioned above if we want an extra batsman get Mahmood in. He can bat not too bad and would be better than Anderson and Giles put together.
I think this is my rant over. I just wish I could waken up and realise this was all a dream.
Sad day for english cricket - the day the ashes were lost.
Complain about this postI believe the seeds for this loss were sown at the Oval in 1999 v NZ. This was the last match before DF took over. England got beaten to resounding boos, with a bottom order consisting of Caddick, Mullally, Tufnell and Giddins. It is my belief that this match led to Fletcher deciding that England had to play a batting tail at all costs. Somehow, this has grown from a desirable aspiration into an all-consuming obsession. Similarly, the keeper's position was held exclusively by Stewart for the first half of DF's tenure. Having a test batsman averaging 40 as keeper is something Fletcher has been striving to get back into his side. Neither Foster nor Read fitted the bill, hence Geraint Jones. Unfortunately, he too has failed. It is also forgotten that Stewart was also a competent keeper. So there we have it. Fast forward to 2006 at Adelaide and the disaster unfolds. DF is not such an inspired coach after all. He is totally hidebound by certain formulae and statistics. We now need a genuine cricketer as coach, not a third-rate player from a fifth-rate team. Someone who truly understands the English game and will give us back some pride.
Complain about this postHello,
Never mind flying them home, that lote should be made to walk home.
Complain about this postThey are a disgrace to their country.
There was far too much celebrating after the ashes win, what they should have done was get mentally prepared for Australia.
Did they not think the Australians were hurt by that loss.
It is about time we stopped bulling our teams up, they are believing their own press.
It was just the same problem with the soccer team at this years world cup, they thought they only had to turn up to win.
england should be ashamed of themselves... i feel sorry for all of the supporters out there who would have expected a draw, i thought that an australia win would be the least likely outcome
Complain about this postNow we know the name of the man behind England's 2005 Ashes success: Michael Vaughan. Duncan Fletcher just happened to be coach at the time. It is time for the ECB to trim Fletcher's wings. He has too much power, and is not using it to England's advantage.
Specifically, it is time for the selectors to be selectors, no matter where on the planet the team is playing. Making captain and coach selectors was required in the age of horse-and-buggy, when it was impossible for a selector back home to guage a player on tour's form. In the modern era, a selector can stay current on a player's form, no matter where the player may be touring. Scratch Fletcher from the selectors job, he has screwed up twice and all indications are that he will continue to do so.
Time for the selectors to stand up and be counted!
Complain about this postWhen Duncan Fletcher so wilfully overturned the England selectors' choice of Read and Panesar, he signalled his defensive approach loud and clear, not just to the Australians, but also to the England team themselves. The message was twofold: England must play for a series draw and 'you boys aren't good enough to select them on their merits alone.' Giles and Jones were chosen as human shields for the batsmen.
But this was the second mistake in the campaign to keep the Ashes: the first was the selection of Flintoff as captain. The argument that his testosterone-fuelled on-field brilliance could sustain them through the gruelling hours in the sun, when nothing much was happening has been shown to be utterly fallible. Flintoff is magnificent, but nobody's' balls are that big. Better to add to the pool of flair and include the better players to spread the pressure around a little.
The team needs a captain in the dressing room as well as the field who presses everyone for the plan of action. It needs a captain to stand up to Fletcher and select class players over a defensive fudge. It needs a captain who wants to win the series, not just draw it.
The Australians took the upper hand in this test match at the end of the third day when they talked confidently of their plans to win it. Compare this to England's pathetic 'hopefullys' and obvious conviction that a draw was all they could achieve.
Fletcher has to go and Vaughan should return as Captain as soon as possible.
Complain about this postWell, I'm glad I didn't submit the contribution I drafted yesterday evening, which was based on the assumption that this test was a guaranteed draw!
Reviewing the contributions today, it seems that the way forward for England is to drop some or all of Strauss, Cook, Bell, Pietersen, Jones, Giles, Harmison and Anderson, to relieve Flintoff of the captaincy, hand it back to a man who hasn't played a serious game of cricket for 12 months, and to sack the coach, who's brought us from being "the worst team in the world" (anyone remember The Oval 1999 against New Zealand?) to being accepted as second best in the world to what remains, unfortunately, an outstanding Australian side.
I think most of this would be an over-reaction. However, last summer, we beat Pakistan (the only test side with a batting line up to match Australia's, perhaps) with Mahmood and Panesar in the side. It's odd that each should lose his place to a bowler who's been out of action for so long.
If anything, Anderson's selection over Mahmood is even more perplexing than Giles' over Panesar. At least Giles' selection had some logic to it, even if the player's actual performances have made that logic look flawed. Mahmood offers more pace and reverse swing than Anderson and more shots than Giles, and should really be in the side. Of course, if Simon Jones were fit, neither Anderson nor Mahmood would be in the frame, but it's hard to see what Mahmood did in Tests to deserve being dropped, and he couldn't be any more anonymous in the field than Anderson, could he?
Since we now have to win two out of three, the selection has to be more positive. To that extent, I agree with the "Mahmood for Anderson and Panesar for Giles" school of thought. Mahmood bats at 8, and we hope that nos.1-7 do well enough make his performance with the bat irrelevant!
Panesar deserves his chance, but we need to remind ourselves that Giles was our leading wicket taker in home Tests in 2004, and played an integral part in the 2005 success. Some cricketers seem to inspire levels of bile, vitriol and hatred that verge on the bewildering, and Giles is one of them. God knows why.
By the way, anyone who's surprised we're losing the series needs his head looking at. Australia are better than they were in 2005 - Hussey for Katich, Clark for Gillespie - and we are worse - no Trescothick, Vaughan or Jones. Australia are at home, and playing with a frightening intensity, especially Ponting, who's up for a good lynching if they don't win.
Of course it's disappointing. Of course the way back looks impossible. Of course you lucky so-and-so's who have the thousands to spend on a trip to Oz, and have spent them, would prefer to see a live rubber. Enjoy the trip anyway - no-one does a sporting event as well as Australia, and cricket is still the best game in the world, as it was beween 1987 and 1999, when everybody could (and did) beat us.
Incidentally, like Paul (post 42), I'm 39. I offer the following random "worse" days than this one:-
1976 Manchester - bowled out for 71 by West Indies, lose by 450 runs.
1977/78 Auckland - NZ beat us for the first time, we are bowled out for less than 100, Boycott bowled behind his legs by Richard Collinge for zip, or not much more.
1983 Leeds - NZ beat us for the first time at home.
1983/4 Christchurch (I think) - NZ bowl us out for about 100 in each innings
1984 Lord's - Greenidge and Gomes knock off 320 on day 5 after Gower declared to set up the win!
1986 Leeds - Roger Binny (Roger Binny!!) bowls us out twice to win for India.
1987 - Pakistan win their first series in England
1988 - the year of 4 captains against the West Indies - all days were as bad as this one!
1989 - Leeds - we fail to bat out the last day, and 17 years of Ashes defeat looms
1989 - Trent Bridge - Marsh and Taylor bat through a day.
1990/91 - Australia - obeying the team's fitness mantra, Allan Lamb, the only form batsman we have, sprains his ankle jogging back to the hotel at close of play (I'm not making this up!)
1992/3 - we play a test in India (!) with four seamers and no spinner (I'm still not making this up!)
1993/4 - WI - Ambrose bowls us out for 46
1994 - Lord's - SA bowl us out for less than 100 on the last afternoon
1999 - "the worst team in the world"
1999-2000 - Jo'burg - 2 for 4 after 20 mins
Actually, writing down this lot is quite cathartic. It shows how far we've come that we are down on the team for their showing in these two matches when, for example, in 2001 (home) and 2002/3 (away) the series was dead in less than 12 days' play.
I'm as disappointed as anyone - but don't expect the coach and captain publicly to blame their players. Take a leaf out of Australia's book in 2005 - they've always said they lost because we played the better cricket, not because they were poor. That must be our attitude - at least in public. Do you want our team to admit to the Australian media that they're not up to it?
Good luck to the team - they'll need it.
Complain about this postI remember a game in Adelaide where Australia scored 550 or so in the first innings (after scoring 400 on the first day) against India, and I thought Australia couldn't lose it. India scored 650, Australia collapsed, India went on to win it. So it was always a possibility the Aussies could win it - although I thought the scoring was a bit slow for it to happen.
Seems to me that England is behaving like Australia last series - relying on the guys who performed last time and not adjusting when it doesn't work out.
But England still has time to adjust, and if England win the next two and it all goes down to the last day of the 5th test we'll all be talking about how great a series this one was, just like the last one.
Complain about this postEngland shouldn't give up hope - Australia just showed what can happen when you don't give up.
look fellas, the aussies are just better.
thats why, before this century is out, we will also dominate world football.
Complain about this postWhen Duncan Fletcher so wilfully overturned the England selectors' choice of Read and Panesar, he signalled his defensive approach loud and clear, not just to the Australians, but also to the England team themselves. The message was twofold: England must play for a series draw and 'you boys aren't good enough to select them on their merits alone.' Giles and Jones were chosen as human shields for the batsmen.
But this was the second mistake in the campaign to keep the Ashes: the first was the selection of Flintoff as captain. The argument that his testosterone-fuelled on-field brilliance could sustain them through the gruelling hours in the sun, when nothing much was happening has been shown to be utterly fallible. Flintoff is magnificent, but nobody's' balls are that big. Better to add to the pool of flair and include the better players to spread the pressure around a little.
The team needs a captain in the dressing room as well as the field who presses everyone for the plan of action. It needs a captain to stand up to Fletcher and select class players over a defensive fudge. It needs a captain who wants to win the series, not just draw it.
The Australians took the upper hand in this test match at the end of the third day when they talked confidently of their plans to win it. Compare this to England's pathetic 'hopefullys' and obvious conviction that a draw was all they could achieve.
Fletcher has to go and Vaughan should return as Captain as soon as possible.
Complain about this postI would like to think messrs Flintoff and Peterson were watching closely as Paul Collingwood gave a masterclass in batting for survival but I doubt it. Heand Mattthew Hoggard did not deserve to end up on the losing team which is more than can be said for the rest.
Complain about this postit would appear to be about time the selectors looked for players with a modicum of intelligence as well as talent and that includes the choice of captain.
A note to Dear Duncan Flectcher
As Elvis would say I just can't help believin but then I hear what your saying and I can't believe it. Quote from you today -'As we have said on numerous occasions, we want to bat to eight. We think Ashley Giles can do that better. That's the reason'
TRYING TO COPY AUSTRALIA IS NOT THE WAY TO WIN THE ASHES. Everyone is bewildered about your batting to no 8 strategy. You need to play to your strengths and England cant bat to no. 8. Giles is not as good a bowler as Monty and even ifs hes only 3/4 perhaps Vaugh can get the best out of the bowlers - Freddy hasn't done the job so far.
IT AINT OVER YET BUT IT WILL BE IF YOU CANt LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES. ENGLAND WON THE ASHES BECAUSE OF THE BOWLING ATTACK. NO MATTER HOW WELL ENGLAND BAT THEY CANT WIN UNTIL THIS GETS SORTED.
You did a great job winning the ashes and turning around the test team but the improvement has stopped despite England having perhaps even better players overall including Jones who is obviously unfit.
Duncan Fletcher, if you cant see the reality that is staring you in the face and change the team its time to pick up your hat and coat and start on your new autobiography. You've got 1 match to get it right.
Complain about this postSo Fletcher wants us to bat to 8 "like Australia with Warne".
I get it Fletch - obviously if Warne couldn't bat a bit, the Aussies would drop him like a shot.
For Brad Hodge maybe?
Complain about this postThis is a strange decision by England for selecting giles ahead of monty. This is like selecting symond ahead of warnie or gillespille ahead of McGrath because they can score more runs. The aussie will never make this silly decision......
Complain about this postThank god I deceided not to go out to Autralia this winter to watch the cricket. Imagine spending all that money to see England give such a pathetic performance. Give Monty a chance. Maybe he doesn't score many runs but he does take wickets which is what the game is all about, or had the England management forgotten. As usual Sir Geoffrey's comments are spot on. Maybe he could open the innings in the next Test.
Complain about this post1. Duncan Fletcher (Mr Negativity) has become a liability. The way he plays favourites is disgraceful, as is his arrogance.
2. Strauss should take back the captaincy reins from Freddie. FF's captaincy is uninspired.
3. Giles is a waste of space. Replace him with Panesar, a spinner who can actually bowl and get top batsmen out.
4. Jones has done nothing to justify DF's faith. Bring back Read - Monty needs a good keeper to work with him.
5. Put Anderson out of his misery. Sajid Mahmood has height, attitude and pace. He's aggressive and can bat a bit.
6. Harmison must understand he's on a final warning. Fly Chris Broad in from the Academy to be on standby.
7. Cook has promise but must learn to stop chasing balls outside off stump.
8. England try to avoid defeat, Australia always want to win. When will we learn?
Complain about this postIs there a flaw in Duncan Fletcher - his championing of certain players against all the evidence? You can take loyalty so far and that buried us.
Flintoff should never ever have been captain - he doesnt have the strategic skills. He is a brilliant player but that's another story.
Pietersen is a flawed genius, arrogance pays off but also pays you back.
Complain about this postYes, England's second innings was pathetic, but the game should never have reached that position. The first innings declaration, when Flintoff and Giles were scoring freely off a worn-down Aussie attack, was as generous as Ponting winning the toss and putting England in at Edgbaston last year. It's no surprise that Australia were able to make 500 on this good batting wicket, so why trade the potential for a really good first innings score for the chance of taking a wicket late on the second day?
Complain about this postThere is more spin coming from Fletcher than Giles ever produced. Maybe he should have picked himself!
Complain about this postA real insight into the batting collapse can be seen in Flintoff's comments after the match.
He was asked what he told the batsmen to do, and he replied 'nothing' - they are grown men, know their job, and were encouraged to "play their natural game".
In other words, the captain failed to provide any direction or strategy. Batsmen can and MUST modify their approach based on the situation at hand.
Directionless, with NO STRATEGY, they ended up playing shots which were entirely inappropriate given the match situation.
We need a leader who can lead with his head, who can give the batsman direction and manage the team's response to the changing fortunes of the match.
Complain about this postIt's really quite simple. Give the captain's job back to Strauss, who both looked the part and batted better in that role, so Freddy can concentrate on what he does best, bring in Panesar for Giles (though even if 55,000,000 Brits call for this I'm sure Fletcher will ignore them) and tell the team that they ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO BEAT THE AUSSIES! enough times until they BELIEVE it!
Complain about this postI blame the media for England's negative mindset. After the first four days all the commentators and pundits kept on and on about "batting sensibly to secure a draw" with us 97 runs to the good. Why wasn't it "smash a very quick 250 put the aussies back in and let's see how they like the pressure" Not one of the people now so wise after the event, particularly those who no wsay we were intimidated had a positive spin on a test we were winning!!!
Complain about this postjust wanna say
Complain about this postdo you jonathan still belive giles should be picked ahead of panesar, he's not the only dodgy pick jones (the batter) has not made any runs so far, brett lee has made more runs than him, only time he did make runs was in second innings at the gabba when all the fielders were near the bat and no one was covering the boundary, team selection seems to follow england everywhere they go in all sports i think this is inbedded in the management of all english sporting bodies, i hope they learn from this but i dont think they will cos i think is in a no win situation cos he wont get a lot of flack cos he won the ashes for england, also wanna say i'm looking forward to the media in the next few days and hear all the excuses eg. vaughan was missing, simon jones wa missing(very overated performed in 1 series and he seems to be the best baller in the world) and also we will see the difference between england and australia cos when the aussies lost last year they never mentioned injuries or nothin like that and thats all england ever seem to mention
thanks
SHATTERING DEFEAT!!
Complain about this postI think this is one of the lowest times in the history of our cricketing exploits. To lose this particular test match is inconceivable given the position our cricketers had got themselves into for the first four days.
To me it wasn't a game that could be won by us and i fully expected us to bat out the final day getting some much needed batting time out in the middle.
I am still in shock! What is wrong with our sporting 'heroes'? and i include our footie and rugger boys in this..... have they no concept of what this game means to us as a nation?
I truly despair....... these players should be made to aplogise for letting us down. They should be made to explain their lack of performance to our boys in Afghanistan and Iraq...... the mind boggles at how they would sound convincing.....
If players like Jones Anderson And out of form Giles are in the tean what can you expect.
Complain about this postThey will be beaten again in the rest of test matches.
They know at the end the will get their pay packet and winning doesnt matter.
Few bobs from advetisment as well
Baber Mirza
Its time to remove Anderson, Giles, Jones and Cook, I just doubt Fletcher has the will or vision to do it - Lets all pray Vaughan can get fit and bring some leadership back to this team
Complain about this postLike a mority of people either listening or watching it was totally beyond belief what was unfolding before us - Clark said the morning session would be crucial and how right he was - lets hope they get it right in the next test
Complain about this postAs a non-partisan cricket lover these are my observations on England
Complain about this post1) Giles cannot be blamed for dropping Ponting - anybody can occasionally drop a catch.
2) Flintoff and Fletcher must share the bulk of the blame for having a negative mindset; everybody knows that being negative in Australia does not work.
3) Collingwood played very selfishly - he neither scored runs nor did he protect his partners - he seemed content to remain not-out.
4) England, in retrospect, erred in appointing Flintoff as captain - he seems to have the same negative mindset as Fletcher.
I still can't understand why England declared when they did.
It seemed obvious to me that they would likely need more than 600 to make the match safe, and to have any chance of making the Aussies follow on.
The only benefit was a handful of overs at the openers at the end of day two.
They could have had plenty more opportunities to get at the Aussie batsmen at the beginning of day 4 and 5.
It was poor captaincy.
Complain about this postFor me the failure isn't down to one thing ... Giles's dropped catch was bad but not a game-looser and the bad umpiring decision that got Straus out is just bad luck - could happen to any player on either side.
The loss is purely down to inconsistency and the whole English team loosing their heads and playing badly when it really matters. There have been bright moments, especially in Adelaide, but the whole side has under-achieved. Opening batsmen have failed to lay down a good foundation, while bowlers have been sloppy. And as for batsmen getting out sweeping or hooking ... God help us, have they any self-control?!
Australia are good because their team regularly turn in good performances. Their batsmen don't throw their wickets away and the bowlers bowl a good, tight consistent line and length.
Complain about this postOnce again the english batsman have shown they cannot play good leg spin. It has now got to the stage where they are like rabbits frozen in a cars headlights.
Complain about this postWhile Shane Warne is a great bowler and seems to know exactlty when to apply pressure, this was pathetic stuff from supposedly good batsmen.
Also where was Panesar? I find it staggering that someone out of form can be picked before a good wicket taker.
Sack the lot ( Team selectors) and start from scratch there is no place in the modern game for preferential old school tie type selection.
When was a captain of a Test side last dropped from the team in the middle of a series?
Do cricketers representing their country undergo drug tests, eg. Alcohol?
When interviewed Flintoff paid just tribute to Shane Warne but said nothing about the total lack of application of some mebers of his team.
Yours in deep mourinng and suffering from lack of sleep
Hugh Cownie
Complain about this postJust ridiculous.
Complain about this postBring back Ian Botham as team manager/coach, and see if he can inspire a repeat of 1981!
Complain about this postAs a world class all-rounder, Andrew Flintoff should be England's strength, but it is Flintoff's all-rounder status that is weakening England currently.
Flintoff is a bowling rather than a batting all rounder (in test cricket at least). He is a good batsman capable of scoring test hundreds, but not consistently enough to bat at 6. This is demonstrated by his average of around 30 (and falling). Anyone batting at 6 in a test side must be good enough to bat there on the strength of their batting and their batting alone.
England are aware of this weakness and as a result are obsessed with strengthening their lower order. This means they select are a selecting a sub standard bowler (Giles) and keeper (Jones) for their batting ability rather than their skill in their specialist field, when far superior specialists are available What makes this even more frustrating is the fact that these two players, selected for their batting, are not much good at batting!
There is no point in selecting 5 bowlers for the sake of it if only two of them present any threat to the opposition. You can only bowl 2 at once so only need 5 if you don't have faith those you have selected. England have plenty of batsmen who can bowl a steady 10-12 overs in a day between them to give the frontline 4 a rest IF NEEDED.
With this in mind, selecting from the squad available I would make 4 changes for the next test - OUT: Jones, Giles, Harmison, Anderson - IN: Read, Joyce, Mahmood, Panesar.
If I was not limited to the current squad I would actually bring in Prior and Lewis instead of Read and Mahmood (I still agree with the theory that keepers should be able to bat, its just JOnes can't!).
Further comments: England's 2nd innings batting performance was pitiful, but their negative batting once they went past 450 in the 1st innings has also come back to haunt them. Also, it is just plain WRONG to consider allowing players away from the game for such long periods (ie Vaughan and Giles) to try to regain their form and fitness in TEST cricket - this devalues the game and reinforces the impression that people are being picked on reputation and not much else.
Complain about this postAggers you are right! How can England bounce back from this abject humiliation? Pietersen needs to stop drinking Red Bull and start playing with sense in these situations. England need to pick an attack capable of taking twenty wickets, this does not include Giles, Harmison, or Anderson on current form.
Batsmen need to play Warne with confidence, ok so the pitch had worn (no pun intended!) since Collingwood and the aforementioned South African gentlemen batted so well in the first innings, but surely they could draw solace from the way those two coped?
Bah! Goodbye Ashes, maybe we'll get you back when Warne sits next to Benaud in the commentary box!
Complain about this postJust look at the stats from the ashes 05. Top bowlers Jones, Flintoff, Hoggard, harmison and Giles in order. Doesnt that tell its own story? Australia's Warne, McGrath and Lee they have 3 strike bowlers and we in essence have one with Hoggard chipping in occasionaly. Use Flintoff as a genuine bowler who can concentrate on that, Hoggard as well, Panasear and Id struggle to pick another (Plunkett, Saj - I wouldnt bet on either.) Can we call up Broad and fake injury for Harmison
Complain about this postPathetic, spineless performance, from people who have no appreciation of what it's like to have a proper job. If I performed as badly as this lot, everytime I was under pressure, I would expect, quite rightly, to be fired.
Complain about this postSend 'em all home and replace them with the Barmy Army, at least they would play with some pride and passion.
Goodness knows what Fletcher and Co are up to. It's time to end permanent jobs for the boys, just because you're one of Fletcher's favourites. Maybe he needs to go too, who knows how we come back from this.
I can't believe such a match was handed over to Australia.
england has a bunch of talented lads and they would feel let down by this.
Can't DF understand that we need to take 20 wickets
Giles returning from a layoff and Handed test matches against Aussies against inform Monty, bcoz you could get 20 more runs....
My lord help me here.....
Bizaare.....
I like Flintoff to the core. By why did his team feed the Aussies in the last hour of the match....
Harmison back from injury
Flintoff back from injury
Anderson the same
Giles the same.
95% of people would not have selected the same 11 for the most important match..
What a Shame....
Complain about this postLet's not be all gloom and doom - England might well have set an unbeatable record in this Test. I quote: "No team in history has lost after declaring on a higher total than England's 551-6 batting first in a Test."
As a matter of interest, what was the previous highest declaration total that led to defeat?
Complain about this postI don't think I've ever been so annoyed at a team's performance as I was this morning. It seems we just let Australia walk all over us and (Collingwood and Hoggard aside) wave the white flag. In the 90s the gulf in ability and class was so obvious that defeat was expected but this was abject surrender. Mahmood is no worse a batsman than Giles and Panesar no worse a batsman than Anderson and their bowling talents far outstrip two semi-fit players.
Complain about this postIts all about attitude. Many Australian players said that they could win the match at the end of day four. England players said that they could defend the game and go into the third test with an advantage,.
The difference is, The Australians believed it, England (and this goes for football also) didn't.
Complain about this postLoosing is in itself bad enough, Its been a depressing day. Having watched England since the days of Boycott and Edrich I find myself at a new low.
Why ?
Because no one will accept responsibilty when players under perform. This blind faith in players ability based on hope rather than form.
The failure of DF and others to accept they are at fault with an arrogance that not only betrays the loyaly of England fans but treats us as though we have no understanding of the game.
Freddie bless him is caught up with the spin, no batsmen were blameless .....no bowler before that were blameless.....
DF has said we have picked the Best team, if he thinks that he is kidding himself and there is no point whatsoever in hoping that any further results will be anything different, that is depressing.
If he was to turn to us and say hands up I got it wrong .........we would respect the guy and say well we told you so now listen and get it right and we may have a chance.
But it will not happen, its another Andy Robinson farce all over again....
Complain about this postthe blame lies on duncan fletcher.
panesar may not be a bestman but he can take wickets.. he could hv taken 3 wickets n that would have saved 100 runs the chase would have been 268 for aussies not 168.
he does not like monty....reasons are obvious
Complain about this postthey should lay the ashes once an for all.I have lost faith in the england side now, I might take up surfing instead!!!
Complain about this postDuncan Fletcher must shoulder most of the blame for what is looking like another Ashes humiliation although the first poor decision for this tour was appointing Flintoff as captain. Strauss would have done a decent job as he did in the summer and his batting thrives on this responsibility. This would have left Freddie to continue his work as the driving force in the team without the worry of captaincy. He has had too much to think about in addition to recovering from a serious injury.
Instead of taking a player such as Jimmy Anderson who obviously needs match practice without too much pressure, the selectors should have taken Jon Lewis who was our best bowler each time he played last summer. He would give the captain the control that has been lacking and do a similar job to Stuart Clark for the Aussies.
A serious worry is that Fletcher has too much selection power on tour. By recalling his pet players - Giles and Jones - he sent out a negative message but worse still has kept Panesar, a potential match winner, out in the cold. His confidence and that of Read must have been shattered especially after the fine work they did in the summer. Why Fletcher is the only man in the cricketing world who does not rate Panesar is a mystery and Engalnd will be the worse for Fletcher's continuing influence.
Complain about this postOf course it was abject, lamentable, a real cricketing disaster. I wrote on the pages before the First test that it was ridiculous to play Giles over panesar for the sake of 20 runs or so. However, having read some of these blogs I feel sad for Giles that there are so many vindictive, bloggers who just want to lay into Giles/Fletcher, someone, anyone.
Complain about this postAustralia are better than us. To beat them once took a Herculean effort and lots of things going our way in 2005, we shouldn't expect to go to their place and beat a superior side. Whether it is just Warne, Ponting, Hussey making the difference, a sizeable difference it is.
This defeat shows how brittle is English confidence unlike the bl**dy minded Aussies. This was a crash of confidence more than technique or selection. Without a settled team, this was always a risk and increased when Tres went home.
Complain about this postSo they should play Monty for the confidence he brings, but others are going to to have to face up to their responsibilities and take a leaf out of Collingwood's book.
One of the great characteristics of this Australian team is that they are bullies ... ruthless in hammring home advantage (amongst many other qualities0.
At 551-6 we needed to do what you have to do to bullies ... stick it back to em bacause as we found out in 2005 ... they dont like it .
So what do we do?
Declare .. on a batsmens paradise.
The post mortem on our second innings should never had needed to happen.
All this ... lets have 10 (or 9 as it turned out) overs at em before stumps is nonesense. We picked a defensive batting orientated team ... then declared well before it was job done & bats away in the kit bag till Perth .....with the best part of 3 days to knock 20 wickets over.
The only scenario where we should have declared is if this was Sydney & we needed a win to square the series & retain the Ashes (provided we had picked an attacking bowling line up)
Most disagree with Fletchers selection policy & his "bat to 8" strategy.
Once thats in place though thats the line crossed .. all he had to do was stick with it & we'd have had a draw minimum
Players drop catches (Giles), Umpires make mistakes, management make iffy team selections ... that will always happen
We had our chance to bully the bullies ... we had them on the rack & we declared ...
Unforgiveable
Complain about this postEveryone stop this nonsense!
Fletch took us from nowhere to ashes win and 2nd best side by showing faith with the players he believed were the right ones. The england of the past would have discarded flintoff after 20 tests when his batting average was 20 and his bowling 48, Harmison and Hoggard's careers wouldn't have lasted much longer than the 2002/03 ashes and people like Simon Jones and Paul Collingwood would never have been given a chance as they didn't set the county championship alight. This series he again keeps faith with players he believes in and he gets slammed by the majority. hands up everyone who didn't want collingwood in the side! what about bell after the last ashes? or harmy before he destroyed the Windies? I'd rather he showed faith with the players he likes than chop and change the team every few matches.
And may i add that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. There was great complaint about Saj's bowling in the summer and now he's the great hope. Jones' keeping was excellent through both tests now people want another change back to read because he was one of the batsmen to fail. playing 5 bowlers has been a major reason why we had the bowling firepower to get to second in the world, now 4 bowlers is apparently the way to go. At the time declaring was a good decision, now it was terrible. The list could go on...
I'm disappointed and frustrated by the team's performance today but think how quickly it could all change. It was all doom and gloom after brisbane (and after lords last year) but within a few days that all changed. Maybe Giles' dropped catch would have made a big difference but i'm not going to blame him. i was grinning from ear to ear when Mcgrath pulled out at edgbaston, when the umpire wrongly gave kasprowicz out caught off his glove and when Warne dropped Pietersen last year. Those moments made the difference last year and this time one went against us.
I still think we can do this. The teams are generally evenly matched (they weren't as Brisbane due to lack of match practise) and if those big moments go for us we'll win tests. We showed in the first 4 days that this aussie side are more than beatable and i'm backing the team, whoever is in it, to show that in Perth.
Complain about this postThe time has come to have a system of checks and balances with team selection on tour so the obvious prefernces of the coach and presumably captain do not hinder reality.
Too many unfit or barely fit players are in the team and unreliable. When we needed the skills of a good spinner in the last innings, Giles was unreliable and soon removed leaving the overworked pacemen - albeit only two who were trusted - were brought back on with disastrous results, and who knows what further damage to Flintoff.
Panassar is a must, on form and recent results, including the only warm up game, but there is no good news as to seamers in the current squad. It is woeful in depth, and even Flintoff is way below 2005 form since his surgery.
The same veiled judgement presumably took Trescothick when he was clearly unwell - for whose benefit was that? I believe it was cruel.
A draw or two would be a bonus now to avoid total humiliation and loss of confidence for Harmison and others.
Complain about this post鈥淭he horror! The horror!鈥
Conrad had it to a T.
England has got the "India Complex" in Cricket...
Anyway, WHAT IS CRICKET?
Complain about this postFlintoff should never have been made captain. He has far too much to think about on the field without being the main strike bowler as well. In the postwar era I can think of only four bowlers who have made good/great captains - Imran, Benaud, Sobers and illingworth - and by and large these were elder statesmen by the time they led their teams. Captains are almost always batsmen - Border, Taylor, Waugh, Ponting, Close,Mike smith, Dexter, May, Cowdrey, Hutton, Brearley, Gower, Gooch, Gatting, Atherton, Hussein, Vaughn, Worrell, Kanhai,Lloyd, Richards, Richardson, Lara, Azruddin, Ganguli, Dravid, Tendulkar. Javed, Inzimam, Ranatunga, Atapattu, Jayawadene, Graeme Smith, Cronje, Fleming, Crowe, - the list is inexhaustible. Fletcher should take the hint and maker Strauss captain and let Flintoff concentrate on his batting and his bowling - heaven knows we need him functioning in both capacities.
And while we're at it, how brainless was Paul Collingwood as England were in their final death throes? How many times did he take a single off the first ball of an over - without any cincern as to why the single was being offered - and leave Hoggard, Harmison, and Anderson facing the next five balls. Irrespective of the appallingly irresponsible shots played by Pieterson, Flintoff and the pathetically inadequate Jones, if Collingwood had used his head we could have drawn the test. We only needed to bat another six overs say. and if Collingwood as the only batsman who looked comfortable had taken a few moderate risks he could surely have garnered another twenty runs. Take off the six overs and add the twenty runs and Ponting and co would have been chasing 178 to win off 30 overs. They might well have got them but they would have had to take a few more risks and in doing so might well have collapsed and had to shut up shop. Collingwood was the only batsman at the crease long enough and in the sort of form to do this and, admirable player though he undoubtedly is, he is as much to blame for our defeat as Jones, Flintoff and Pieterson.
Finally, Fletcher wants our team "to bat down to Number 8' so there is no room for Monty. This philosophy presumably means that if Warne were English he would get into the side on the basis of a batting average of over twenty, but his contemporary spinning genius, Murali, would be sitting on the bench with Monty and Read making the tea!
Complain about this postI am just very upset that Collingwoods outstanding performance (including second innings) has been lost having been let down by all the other batsmen.
How often to English batsmen score double hundreds? Surely the best moral booster of all? And yet we still lose.
So Colly, we just need another 200 next time yeah?
Complain about this postWhen will Flectcher realize that Giles deserves no place in the Enland team, will he be there in 5 years' time, no. Panesar is the future of English cricket, who cares if he doesn't make runs he's there as a frontline bowler, and whatever he lacks in the batting department, he makes up for in his wicket taking ability, the only time Giles has bowled well, is when there is no pressure and the other bowlers are playing well. When the wicket is turning, and people look at the 'spinner' to take wickets, he doesn't produce. In the 1st Innings here for Australia, if Monty was playing then he could have helped retrict australia, and probably would have caught Ponting out, and been more of a threat to the Autralias. So will Duncan please listen to the pundits, espeically Ian Botham who talks more sense than any other including the so-called expert Agnew
Complain about this postpathetic
but how does the wicket keeper get any blame?
the bowling was just ok on that pitch, the batting last night truly schoolboy
men against boys
vaughan or flintoff? no contest
Complain about this postDuncan,
Why are we playing 5 bowlers, 4 of which had hardly played any cricket in the few months leading up to such a big series?! Surely going into a test match with 1 or 2 would鈥檝e been risky enough.
Harmison鈥檚 bowling has been garbage and unpenetrative (even in the 2nd test)鈥︹︹oo many harmless balls outside off stump, he needs to make the batsmen play more. He needs to bowl on average maybe 1 or 2 balls back of a length or at the batsmens鈥 throats/heads (but not to Ponting as he鈥檚 an awesome puller of the ball) and the other 4 or 5 full and looking to beat the edge or get the batsmen out bowled/lbw.
Next match, I suggest:
1 Strauss (c)
2 Cook
3 Bell
4 Pietersen
5 Collingwood
6 Flintoff
7 Read (wk)
8 Mahmood
9 Hoggard
10 Panesar
11 Broad
****Now this is a team that can take 20 wickets in a match!****
PS. Please stop picking your favourites instead of picking the best players, I鈥檝e watched almost every minute of the first 2 tests and I鈥檓 pissed off with the disgraceful actions of yourself and - I hate to say this, but - Andrew Flintoff (for his part in picking Giles over Panesar), I have no problem with Giles as a person or player (even though his wickets do come at 40 runs each) but he should only be getting a game if we decide to go into a match with 2 spinners (and Pietersen is deemed not good enough to fill the second spinner spot).
I bet the other selectors (who don鈥檛 act as selectors on tour 鈥 Graveney and the other guy, is it Marsh?) are very angry at your actions behind their backs, in disposing of Panesar and Read as soon as you knew they couldn鈥檛 have a say in the matter!
Regards,
Anthony (Manchester).
Complain about this postI'm devasted by this result.
Complain about this postI think the person we miss more than anyone is Michael Vaughan. He had the psycological edge over Ponting and was a brilliant captain who always got the best out of his team. Without him we seem to panic as we did in Adelaide. Freddy is a great player but the responsibilty of being a captain, bowler and batsman is too much for him, having a negative effect on the team.
Ashley Giles' performance was at best inept and at best Sunday Pub. Its not his fault he wouldn't get into my lads under 14's school team - its Duncan Fletcher's for persisting with his blind faith that Giles is a World-Beater. Fletch - he ain't, wake up pick Monty, who at least will induce some passion - a commodity sadly lacking in this England team. Oh! by the way Harmison is living on past glories too!!!!
Complain about this postNo single person is to blame for the appallingly embarrasing loss of the second test. It seems to be down to a difference in the state of mind of our major sports team players and their opponents. As Australia came closer to our first innings total you could almost smell the Antipodean testosterone and the English fear. It's the attitude, it's cultural, it's hunger - it's what makes winners. Ponting and Warne do not understand the word "impossible".
Complain about this postApportioning culpability for loss is always interesting to both engage in and observe, the possible reasons have been well articulated on this forum. The question raised fro me once again is the peculiarly English disease of "bottling it", a problem so deeply ingrained in our national sporting psyche that no matter how technically able our sportsmen may be they will always lack that professional winning instinct.
Complain about this postDespite this recent humiliation we are in fact not as bad as we look.
The psychological equipment to win consistently is simply not in our nature and it is this area which requires the most work, and it is this that Fletcher & co ( as well as the media and general public) need to understand if we are to move beyond being "jolly good sports" and the "it's the taking part not the winning that counts"
I'm afraid they need more than a week with the team psychologist.
Why are so many posters saying "three to play and two to win"?!
Under these conditions, Aus can still win the Ashes (I'll help you with the maths - they can win the other game).
Giles out. Monty in. It's obvious.
Jones out. Read in. To keep to Monty, and he CAN bat.
Anderson out. Mahmood in. Pace and the unexpected.
Harmy out. Vaughan in. Even if he's not fit, he can captain and bat at 4 or 5.
All is not lost. Er ,,,
Complain about this postWhat has made this defeat hardest to take is a lot of the problems with the team are not us being wise after the event.
Giving captaincy to Flintoff could affect performance (Batting now poor / Bowling Good)
Jones is no longer a superior bat to Read even though his keeping has improved.
Harmison/Anderson/Giles short of bowling
Not enough warm up games before test series
We entered the test series with a team selection of avoiding defeat. If DF wanted to bat until 8 why not play a extra batsman.
Complain about this postAnderson out, Mahmood in. Giles out, Monty in. At least this would have the potential to take 20 wickets, if at an extra cost of runs.
Cook? Not ready yet. Alternatives? None. I wonder if he'll truely recover from this series.
They'll draw two of the next three games I think, but it will be a 3-0 loss. You don't suddenly become useless overnight. If you do, shouldn't the coach be considered?
Complain about this postLots of posts - I had my say earlier at around 550!
Monty in for Gilo is a no brainer. However, to suggest that by dropping Ponting, Giles has lost the Ashes is to forget that Warne dropped KP at the Oval last year - which would have meant no Ashes to defend this time round.
My fear now is with all the criticism that DF is getting over selection he may well crawl into his shell and do precisely nothing.
Never mind, come on DF, lets have the same team for Perth. Ignore all the bloogers - you know it makes sense!
Complain about this postTime for some rational thoughts;
2005 Ashes series with McGrath playing = Australia 1, England 0
Who was Englands most effective bowler throughout the series (with the possible exeption of Flintoff) = S. Jones
New name in Australian batting lineup = M. Hussey (Ave 80)
Makes quite a difference, 2-0 scoreline really not surprising
Complain about this postIf you are going to change the team may I suggest you start with Duncan Fletcher.Pay him out if you have too.
Complain about this postEnglands success 18 months ago was due to a strength in depth both in batting and in bowling - epitomised by the talismanic Flintoff - yet now, we seem to be able to do neither.
Yes, the Australian team are good, and in particular, are batting well (Ponting, Hussey and Clarke) - but they are far from legendary and probably weaker than 4 or 6 years back, when McGrath, Langer, Hayden, Martyn (and to an extent Warne) were in their prime.
The heart of Englands batting has been ripped out and we're left with a mixture of inexperience (Cook), ill-confidence (Flintoff, Strauss), inconsistancy (Peitersen) and plain bad batters (Jones).
Meanwhile, Flintoffs injured, Harmisons rubbish, Andersons made no impression and poor Hoggards left trying to carry our bowling attack.
And don't even get me started on whats wrong with Giles - a shambolic decision by Fletcher.
Complain about this postThe only player to come out of the test with credit is Paul Collingwood, he must feel so let down.
We need to play Monty & Chris Read and maybe even Mahmood instead of Anderson.
How I agree with Geoff Boycott, even at his age he would have made a better fist of batting, apart from maybe the run out !
Complain about this postOne of the key factors in the selection for the first two Tests I presume is Fletcher's greater influence away from home than at home. In England the selectors have more players on hand in the heart of the season and see the performances first hand. On tour, they have to follow it for the most part in the same way that fans do. Hence, Fletcher is able to call the shots on team selection from a self contained group of players. It accounts partly for his narrow view of what he wants although he has always been this way and backed particular horses. That works well much of the time and Fletcher has presided over a big restoration of England's fortunes. But not now. We all need to be flexible. And Fletcher's time may have come because he was not prepared to recognise that his team balance and its needs had changed because of injuries, form and fitness. Panesar does not fit the Fletcher formula for example. So now he has a choice. If he selects the same team again and England loses the Third Test one feels Fletcher must surrender his contract. If he bails out and goes for Read, Panesar and Mahmood, then none of them have much cricket but they do get a warm up game - the only one left. This is a crunch time for him.
Sadly, the crunch time for England may well have been today. On my blog (see 10 November) I predicted a best result of 3-0 to Australia. That now looks distinctly optimistic. Leave me your predictions on my blog if you think we can beat 3-0 or if you think Fletcher has got it right in particular. Is it all his fault? Or would be be suffering just the same if we'd gone for the Read/Panesar combination?
Complain about this postWhen did English batsmen last resist bowling of any calibre? The last time I recall was Mike Atherton, Alec Stewart and Angus Fraser holding out against Alan Donald and South Africa at Old Trafford in 1998 for a last day draw. Coincidentally, SA's score in the first innings there was 552 for 5 declared.
I don't think the players have the mental capacity to bat for long periods these days with the baleful influence of one-day cricket and it is time we schooled two sets of players for these two very different types of cricket. Until we do, we are destined for mediocrity in each format.
It's two different games stupid!
Complain about this postThe one most serious thing that England face after today's debacle, is a 5-0 whitewashing could be on the cards. Something, someone, needs to take England's entire cricket team by the scruff of the neck, shake them vehemently and kick them out into the next game, demanding that anything less than a convincing win will neither be acceptable, nor tolerated and woebetide all of the team, captain and coach included, if a good result is not achieved.
Complain about this postEngland fans from around the globe, including the Barmy Army expects. Best the players deliver!
If you lose the first test, don't worry, could happen to anyone, you'll probably win the second one. If you lose the second test, don't worry, could happen to anyone, you'll probably win the third one. If you lose the third test, don't worry, because you won't be coach any more.
Complain about this postWhy is everyone so surprised? Perhaps they believed all that nonsense from some of our commentators that Australia were finished, Warne was finished, McGrath was finished.
Complain about this postThere is no point blaming individuals - England are not a great team and they cannot become one in the space of a week. Australia have the best team in the world. They were when England won last year. That was the surprise result - not Adelaide. So, get off their backs and hope England can put up a fight. They may not be a great team but they are still a good team.
No single person is to blame for the appallingly embarrasing loss of the second test. It seems to be down to a difference in the state of mind of our major sports team players and their opponents. As Australia came closer to our first innings total you could almost smell the Antipodean testosterone and the English fear. It's the attitude, it's cultural, it's hunger - it's what makes winners. Ponting and Warne do not understand the word "impossible".
Complain about this postWhy do I add anything to this long list of comments?
What a HUGE disappointment! I checked the score just before I went to bed and could not believe my eyes when I saw a headline like "England lurch past 100".
The batsmen are elite professional athletes. What of their mental attitude? Where is the fight, application, patience, intelligent aggression? Being beaten "all ends up" by an unplayable delivery is one thing. Getting out to an unwise shot is another. And a run out, too? Puhleeze!
JA's blog from Monday ominously (as it turns out) mentioned Warne getting the ball to spit. Did the wicket really change that much from Monday to Tuesday?
Congratulations to the Australian team. They evidently had no intention of going through the motions on the last day.
Well, I'll still be following the series, but I am not holding much hope for England. If they win one test, I'll be surprised. I hope I'm wrong.
Complain about this postIn my view, as an Australian by birth, the savaging of your Coach is quite unseemly. Surely he isnt the sole selector on tour. Doesnt the captain and another senior player have input into the selection process ? If not, then thats a big mistake.
Complain about this postAnd where are the critics of Punter Ponting now ? Some of the comments made about him over the last week in these blogs have been way off the mark, How England would love to have a player, leader, man-manager like him.
While the England players and officials were swanning around on top of double-decker buses last year, their Australian counterparts went back the training paddock putting the plans in place to bring the famous urn back. Those plans have come to fruition. Dont you love it when a plan comes together.
I suppose what's most disappointing the Monty situation is that he's played, and played well in the sub-continent; which you could consider a harder place to play than oz. He's competed with India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka; the best players of spin.
It's not as if he's just played against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe or other lesser teams. Common, Duncan stop being so stubborn and give Monty ago before it's to late. (if it isn't already!)
Complain about this postAbsolutely unbelievable defeat, the players should be ashamed of themselves. Players to drop have to be Jones, Giles and Anderson. Still can't work out why Read was dropped. He may have played poorly in the one day trophy but let's face it Jones has played poorly for considerably longer and should not be picked again until he puts together some runs in county cricket. Giles should not play again for England, simple as. He is no threat on any pitch, his fielding is poor and is it really worth including him on the back of his average batting? Anderson, blatantly not fit and looked average to say the least, again send him back to county cricket and bring him back only after a sustained period of decent performances. Bring in Read, Panesar and Mahmood and give them as many chances as the above three have had.
Complain about this postOne thing that has to be touched on though is how much younger our side is than the Australians and how much this experience is building them for the future. Langer will be 38/39 next ashes, Hayden 39/40, Martyn 37, Gilchrist 37, Warne 39/40, Mcgrath 39 perhaps a few of them may be around but ageing. Whereas England have a young side who are learning and feeling pain from these experiences which will hopefully build a determination for them not to repeat them. These ashes are gone, forget about winning them, play the younger up and coming players and get them learning so we can smash them in 2009. Thank God Warne and McGrath will be gone then - oh and the last thing i wanted to say is shame on those people who were writing them off and saying they were past it, how utterly predictable was it that they would pull something out of the hat on the last day, how short our memories are of the number of times they've done that in the past.
I almost cannot express my disbelief, not to say embarrassment, at this completely and utterly gutless performance by our national team. They should be made to individually explain themselves and then apologise to those of us who love this great game and expect our team to perform like men, not frightened children.
As for Fletcher, the man has shown himself to be both stubborn and a fool. It has been obvious since the Summer that the combination of Panesar and Read adds massively to sum total total of the parts, replacing as it does perhaps the two weakest links in the English side with a spin bowler who can dismiss the very best of batsmen with sheer guile and a 'keeper that knows how to exploit the stumping opportunities that always arise when Monty is bowling. Witness also Jones' hapless performance with the bat in BOTH innings and Giles' inability to exploit the conditions with the ball, again in both innings. He didn't do us any favours with that dropped catch either!
Fletcher must now have balls to stand up and admit he got it wrong - and then select the best 11 players for the remainder of the series. Its probably too late to retain the Ashes, particularly as Freddie is clearly crocked again, but we might at least come home with some national pride restored.
Complain about this postOne cannot help but recall the situation in 1981 when another great allrounder was not performing under the twin pressures of captaincy and great expectation. When released from the former he produced a legendry performance. Struass for captain or will Vaughan be available.
Complain about this postIf you lose the first test, don't worry, could happen to anyone, you'll probably win the second one. If you lose the second test, don't worry, could happen to anyone, you'll probably win the third one. If you lose the third test, don't worry, because you won't be coach any more.
Complain about this postI said in other places on the net after the squad was announced that it was wrong for Fletcher to pick Giles instead of Panesar. I could understand why Fletcher picked Giles though - for his batting and his fielding. The bottom line however is this: He scored 27 runs in two innings, has a match analysis of 2-149 off 42 overs and dropped Ponting when he had just a few on the board, arguably dropping the Ashes too. In this context Giles has failed in every department in this test match.
You can say whatever you like about the wicket being flat, but Warne got prodigious spin on the final day. Panesar and Giles are no Warne, but Panesar is naturally attacking and does spin the ball a lot more Giles. Given the fact that you (normally) have to take 20 wickets in a test to win it is illogical to:
1) Pick Harmison who, lets face it, hasn't looked anywhere near his best for quite some time
2) Pick Anderson who looks a shadow of the man that stepped forward a few years ago
3) Rely on Flintoff who's coming back from a big ankle injury... who also has to bat in the middle order... and captain the side
4) Pick Gilo who hasn't played competitive cricket all season and even before that only had average international stats.
Sorry Fletcher. You and Vaughan did a magnificent job in 2005. But you've really arsed it up this time.
And the selectors really arsed up picking Flintoff as captain too. I said this earlier on in the year elsewhere that as good as Flintoff is as player he's an all-rounder, and a bowling one at that. We cannot afford to have our star bowler distracted with captaincy, particularly when the bowling attack is as pathetic as the one we're currently using.
I fear though that now any change is too little too late. Panesar should have played in Brisbane ahead of Giles (1-113 off 30 overs and 41 runs) and after Brisbane either Harmison or Anderson replaced by Mahmood. Even Mahmood isn't an ideal choice given he can scatter it about a bit, but he can bat more than Anderson who is a bone fide number 11.
All in all we've totally thrown the Ashes away. I've never been more ashamed to be a supporter of English cricket.
Complain about this postWhen will the powers that be, in English cricket, realise that the accomplished batsman should never be made captain. How many times must we go through this nonsense until they see sense. Recent history has proven it many times, the pressure ruins their expertise. Premier cricketers in their own field need to concentrate on the job in hand and not have to worry about leading a team and all that goes with it. Leaders should be tactically aware, yes, but not the prime players of the team.
Extremely frustrated of Norfolk, Al
Complain about this postI'm a leadership expert and, aside from whether Giles should be in or out (of course out) and other selection issues, the crux of this debacle was the defensive attitude of the whole team on the last morning ... as reflected in the amazingly negative batting. It blows my mind that Fletcher was not guiding Flintoff better and saying ... "Let's be aggressive from the outset. We have 100 runs already and 9 wickets left. By lunch we can declare and then try to bowl the Aussies out. (To wit, the way in which Langer and Hayden began their innings - bold, aggressive). PATHETIC ... and typical of 'Little England'.
Complain about this postI can't understand how so much rage can be directed at Giles and Jones while the worst that is reserved for Anderson is that he should be drop until he improves further. This has been the old story with Anderson for what seems like centuries. England need to start by sending him home and then deciding whether to play Giles as a second spinner or Mahmood. For all the publicity that dropped catches get, ineffective and unreliable pace bowlers are the biggest liability against Aussie batsmen. How many second chances does Anderson get?
Complain about this postRash shots, dropped catches and substandard bowling. All the England players need to take a good look in the mirror and ask themselves, do I want to be on the loosing side? Because any further repeat of the last two games and they might as well pack their bags and come home. There comes a time when you have to stand up and be counted and that includes playing your guts out in both innings.
I also hope we don't see Fletcher and Flintoff bury their heads in the sand and make the same abysmal selection decisions. Your choices lost us both matches boys, so wake up and smell the coffee!
Complain about this postThis is not rocket science. Even though ashley giles can bat at number 8 he is disappointing with the ball averaging 88+. Monty would never have such a bad average I am sure. Anderson should be dropped he may have done good in the tour match but his bowling is very rusty. Mahmood can bat at number 8 he shown that in the ODI against pakistan and recent tour match against south australia. Mahmood is very inconsistant however you know you will get one match winning spell which could change the course of the game. Alistair Cook cannot handle the pressure he is a class batsman but shane warne is getting him scared. I think michael vaughan needs to play in the 4th test if we draw the next test i dont think we will win the next game this is a huge mental blow. Michael Vaughan wont bat well but his experience would be crucial. If we only have 7 batters I think in a peverse way it will bring the best out of Flintoff and Jones because all the pressure is on them to perform for there country.
Complain about this postI'm not sure why people have it in for Anderson. Sure, his figures look pretty ugly, but having watched a fair amount of this game, he did get close to 3 wickets and had Ponting at sea for a few overs. His first innings figues were not really much worse than Freddie's.
The main problem seemed to be Harmison. I can't remember seeing him bowl any balls that looked threatening.
I'm not sure Mahmood will improve on either, but is worth a shout, and I don't know anyone who thinks Monty shouldn't replace Giles.
However, I can't see DF dropping Harmy, and I can't see any merit in playing Giles and Monty, as only one is a spinner!
Complain about this postPathetic!
So much for writing off Warne after the first innings. As for Fletcher's post match comments, the man must be insane. As 'coach' he's made monumental errors even before arriving in Oz.
1. Not flying straight to Oz after the one day debacle in India. The Test side obviously needed a FAR greater acclimatisation period.
2. Picking his favourites when others performed much better last summer..Read, Mamood and Panesar.
3. Selecting players who've been injured for months...shades of Sven picking Rooney...why was Giles picked anyway?
4. Overloading Flintoff with the captaincy...echoes of Botham.
Need I go on? Get rid of him now, or at least bring in the other selectors, who picked Read, Mamood & Panesar, to over-rule him. Send Giles, Harmison & Jones to the A team & bring in replacements. If Harmison performs he could always return. the other two should only feature if an almighty injury crisis strikes.
Complain about this postLatest odds on Betfair: of all the possible series scores, the shortest odds (3.55) of any is on... a 5-0. Draw your own conclusions.
(Personally I like the look of 3-1 and 4-1, each at 7.8... England seem to win dead rubbers in Ashes series quite often.)
Complain about this postEvery England supporter around the world was disgusted by England's performance on the last day of Adelaide Test.Why can't the England management team get the basics right of test cricket?what does it take to win a test match? 20 wickets !!! there was no way on this earth can england take 20 australian wickets with harmison not firing full cylinders, ashley giles performing well below standard and james anderson looking like a club cricket bowler. england should have learnt a lesson from 1st test defeat. how many runs has giles scored in this 2 tests if england prefers him over monty for his batting?why is england's one of most fastest bowler (sajid mahmood) is sitting on benches on australian fast pitches?why is Ed joyce not given a chance even though cook has not performed to his potential in 4 innings?when will England batsmen learn to put a high price tag on their wicket? im sure most england cricket fans alongwith me feel sorry for hoggard,flintoff,kp n collingwood ....
Complain about this postnot to take credit away from australians ... there is not a chance in this world that england will bring back ashes !!!!!
If England had Monty to bowl on a 5th day pitch, this Test match would have been a lot closer.
Whilst chasing a modest target, Australia (under Ponting) lost a Test match in India. Murali Kartik picked up five wickets.
Giles just couldn't bowl the right length or line. Hussey swept him, reverse swept him - proving that the left-arm spinner is impotent even on a 5th day pitch.
Duncan Fletcher's decision (frightening to think that Flintoff agrees with Duncan) to drop Read and Panesar is enough proof of incompetence.
Had Duncan been the coach of Pakistan, there would have been whispers - in fact loud whispers that he is a match-fixer.
A country that tolerates a Bliar can always be proud of a Duncan too.
Complain about this postSometimes a setback is needed to move forward - it should now be goodbye Giles, Jones & Anderson [although I would keep Anderson in the squad - as he has shown promise].
Complain about this postMahmoud, Panesar & Read should come back as we have to win at Perth. Harmison is a strike bowler if he isnt good enough to bowl dont pick him if he is let him bowl - if he doesnt make these changes then Fletcher should go and Strauss should retake the captaincy [arguably this should happen anyway]. I FEAR HE WILL PLAY VAUGHAN VERY SOON - it seem that the less cricket you play and th emore out of form you are the greater your chance of playing.
I can't remember a test match ever being lost in such embarrassing fashion. Brisbane was bad enough, but here England threw away what seemed to be an invincible position. To be honest, I'd expect better from a pub team, given England's position at the start of the last day. As others have said, I would have picked Monty instead of Anderson, which would have allowed DF to have his batting down to number 8, for what it's worth. Looks like this series has got away; maybe we have a chance in 2009 if Warne & McGrath retire.
Complain about this postI cannot help but being provocative. Giles had not played any serious cricket for almost a year and obviously match rusty. How do you explain his selection over Panesar. Could this have anything to do with a racial preference because the opponents are Australia? I think he would have been selected against Pakistan or India. As fate would have it Giles cost us the game with the sitter he dropped, contributing to the panic in the 2nd innings. It is amusing now listening to the justifications from Fletcher et al.
Complain about this postWhere do I start, we celebrated too long after the last Ashes win, by all means celebrate and then get on with building to win the next one. The Aussies meanwhile have been plotting our downfall since they lost.
Then we make the wrong choice as Captain, Filntoff is inspirational as a player, he doesn't need to be burdened with Captaincy to inspire the side, Strauss had already lead England to a series win against Pakistan and amazingly a draw in the one dayers, leave him as captain, he also showed that his form with the bat actually improved when he was skipper.
You don't beat the Australians by being negative, we have one of the best finger spinners in the world in Panesar, yet we select Giles who despite being a very good cricketer is never going to bowl a side out of that quality and whether he makes 10 runs more than Panesar is unlikely to change the game, he also has been injured and hasn't played for a year, this is a very poor selection. With the Australians having three left handers, picking Dalrymple who bowls very good off-spin would have been a far better move if you are also that worried about the batting. I remember Langer and Hayden looking very uncomfortable batting against Vaughan one evening in the Ashes last year.
Chris Read is a superior keeper, and Jones is still not making runs a stubborn selection by Fletcher. Sad to say it but since Cooley left our seam attack doesn't look nearly as good, with the exception of Flintoff. We've been unlucky with injuries, but this has been on the cards. It's annoying that we seem to be capitulating so easily, the Aussies are an excellent side, but I really feel that our team has the talent and ability to win if this hadn't been mismanaged so badly.
I'd love to be proved wrong, but at this point I don't think I will be.
Complain about this postengland are rubbish, simple as, even with michael vaughan they wouldnt do anything the class of shane warne is unstoppable, england are rubbish simple as michael vaughan is a good captain but a dump batsmen
Complain about this postFletcher's head should be the first to roll. His selections send a very negative message to those competing for a place on the side on the basis of performances. They also heap additional and unfair pressure on his teacher's pets, Giles and Jones, who must find it extra difficult to show team mates and fans they merit selection.
Sure, the players deserve some stick but I would like to see Fletcher's backside kicked from now until next year.
Complain about this postPicking Giles and G Jones immediately undermined our top order batsmen. In effect, Fletcher was saying that he didn't have confidence in them (once Trescothick had gone home) making enough runs not to need an (dodgy) insurance policy down the order. Reed can't come in now as Fletcher has virtually told him that he can't bat at this level. And how must Monty be feeling when he's been replaced by a spinner who hasn't even been playing county cricket during the past English season? I thought man-management was one of Fletcher's strengths, but not now. What worries me most though is that Fletcher is stubborn enough to pick the same team again for the next Test! We've been playing for draws and got what we deserved - a good spanking!
Complain about this postWhy when Duncan Fletcher talks so much about the need to be multi-skilled and to have bowlers who bat, does he not apply the same principle to the batsmen and expect some of them to bowl. Pietersen could become a decent off spinner and turns it more than Giles, but only gets a few overs. Collingwood didn't bowl at all in Adelaide and he is supposed to be an all rounder. If these two were made to work at their bowling, they could both do a job with ball as well as bat for England.
Complain about this postThe result at Adelaide beggars belief but then England have developed the capacity to forfiet hard won advantages.
Despite the ridicule that I will receive I still believe that England can win the Ashes if the team selection is made on the basis of merit and not on the 'instinct ' of Duncan Fletcher.
If this England team play to their best against the Aussies at their best , England would win that contest.
The batting order is the best in the world but needs anchoring by the openers , in fact given the way the games have gone shouldn't Flintoff and Petersien open and give us that anchor?
Harmison is trying too hard to regain some sort of form but I would suggest that the England players stay away from the nets as they seem to be exhausting themselves practising and coming on to the field weary and over cooked!!!!
Complain about this postAggers - Having been encouraged to give our views on this site I do object to you refering to the vast majority of us that have said from the start that Panesar should play in terms that we are mis directed fools or nerds with no idea about the game. Unfortunately we have been proved right in stark fashion and no amount of spin can alter that. Even if panesar gets his chance now he will be under more pressure and knowing that his coach does not rate him. Same for Read who was not given a fair shot. I know you and Vic Marks don't see it as a sacking offence but the mood of the country back here is very dark and disappointed and Fletcher is copping most of the Flak. Geoffery started the ball rolling but it is gaining huge momentum.
Complain about this postAs an Australian living in England I feel compelled to write. Why do you have to look for someone to blame? You invented team sports but can't play them because you look for a single person to win the match. It is a team sport and when one fails the other succeeds and as a team you succeed. You are like US mangers who can't see past the next quarter. The team to stay the course through thick and thin win. Why don't the Australians keep changing there team. 鈥淒ads army鈥 hey. Do you think your team knows that your support for them is so shallow and that you would turn on them so quickly?
You should be ashamed of yourselves for such shallow attitudes. You all want to say 鈥渨e won, we beat those bloody Australians鈥 but do you really love the game as we do. Cricket to you is cucumber sandwiches and tea on Saturday afternoon on a velvet green pitch. You sold your cricket pitches for mobile phone towers. At school you can't play unless you are padded up like the Michelin man and a teacher is present for health and safety . We learned to play on pebbly dirt strips with heavy cork balls and no pads. Hit or be hit. We win because we are battlers and our country teaches us that to succeed you have to battle against all odds. Australia is a tough place. If we win it is as a team, if we lose, we lose as a team! That is our psychy.
Complain about this postLook, I'm no great fan of DF - I think he's a grumpy, taciturn individual - but let's not forget he's the man that was lauded when we WON the Ashes 15 months ago.
But in early December 2006, it's clear that he is part of the current problem. Whilst he didn't bat, bowl or keep wicket, he's the one who chose the team that were so woeful not just today, but also at the Gabba. And he then seeks to justify his decisions - and that's the problem, he doesn't think he's ever wrong.
Complain about this postIt sure is a lot of fun watching the English cricket team, elder statesmen, commentators and fans implode. I've lost interest in the cricket since we kept winning all the time, but it always brings a smile crushing the whinging poms.
Complain about this postIrrespective of the fact that English cricket fans suffered the darkest day of english cricket i salute collingwood,kp n hoggy.but im afraid a test match is not won by 2 batsmen and one bowler.you need to take 20 wickets !!! giles doesnt look like an international bowler at all,anderson was worse than a club cricket bowler.hoggy bowled with his heart and soul on a flat pitch i bow to him ....
Complain about this postDISGUSTING is the only word comes to mind when thinking of england's defeat. i would personally blame duncan fletcher for this defeat. had monty been picked instead of giles or anderson the outcome might have been different !!!
i feel sorry for thousands of fans who have spent their hard earned money and millions staying up all night to see england bring back the ashes but im afraid to say that its not gonna happen.england team and duncan fletcher has let down each n every fan that cheered them to victory in 2005.
hope the england management open thier eyes and find monty and other far more capable players (sajid mahmood ,read, ed joyce) than giles,jones and anderson to atleast bring back some pride if not the ashes ........
I am a died in the wool Aussie fan, but I am left with a hollow feeling by this win. Put simply, England's performance was not worthy of them. To lose in such an abject capitulation was disgraceful. Where was the fight that they showed in 2005? Why not select their best bowler of the last 12 months (Monty)? Hang your head in shame, Fletcher. Your conservative approach lead to this embarrasing loss. No Australian wants another Aussie over. We want good, hard, tough test cricket.
Complain about this postWell in our house we are as disappointed and sad as the rest of the country at today's loss. I don't profess to know much about the finer points of cricket, but I love the game ( and love beating the Aussies even more). What happened last night was a real let down but even more disappointing is the way everyone seems intent on dissing our team. How about some support for them? We blew it in a short space of time; but how about the fact that we got loads of runs, some of our batsmen were fantastic, Australia didn't manage to bowl us out in the first innings and for most of the match we had Australia on the back foot. and Shane Warne in a grump. If you want the team to pick themselves up and make something of the next few matches, then show a little support, focus on the positives and stop whingeing like true POHMS.
Complain about this postEngland are a bunch of amateurs, albeit talented amateurs, who are unable to concentrate or devote 100% of their time on the game. They thought the game would be a draw and were thinking more of the after match celebrations than making the most of the remaining time to impose themselves on the Australians. As Geoff Boycott keeps on reminding us they are pathetic.
Complain about this postI am a Freddie fan but its time he gave up the captains role. We need him bowling and batting. With the captains role he is a Jack of all trades and a master of none.
Complain about this postI just wish we'd stop thinking of Flintoff as a front line batsman. He hasn't scored runs consistently for years. He is a bowler, bang him down to number eight. Chuck out Anderson, and then we've space for an extra batsman - Vaughan, Tresco, Joyce, Shah etc. Bring in Panesar for Giles then when Stuart Broad becomes the world class wicket taker he's been threatening to become we have bowling options, batting down to number 8. Sorted.
Complain about this postWhy play Giles and Anderson, the two players that haven't play a match in the last domestic season, I thought match form is important, in where Monty and Mahmood were played well and were taken wickets in the Pakistan's series and were not selected, because they were not part of the last Ashes winning team.
Decision playing G. Jones was disgraced as Read has done nothing wrong in the Pakistan's series, average on 40 and took some good catches and stumping, remember the last test against Pakistan, bowled Monty, Inzamam charged down the wicket and Read did the rest. Fair enough he didn't scored enough runs in India, but the pitches in there were slow and completely different to the pitches in Australia.
Clearly Strauss is a better Captain than Freddie, also we should just let Freddie concentrating on his bowling and batting, just like last Ashes as he seem to lost the plot at the end as Captain.
I can't believe Fletcher stand by his comment about playing Giles because he is a better batman, I thought to win a Test match, you need to take 20 WICKETS, also playing Anderson because he played well in the PRACTISE match. He should stand up and acknowldge he has mading an errors and not giving excuses.
Complain about this postJonathan, surely the time has come to play Monty. A Shane Warne article in the "Times" prior to the first test stated that failure to pick Monty would send a "defensive England" message to the Aussies. This is the case - we need to assert ourselves on the home side before we sink. MONTY must play the next test...
Complain about this postYours,
Gutted of Church Hougham, Kent.
Well what can one say but another capitualation when England seemed to be on top. What will it take for England to take on Australia and actually beat them. Batsmen make runs but bowlers win games. Lets hope Fletcher makes some changes because it looks like a slippery slope to me. Hopefully Vaughan can come back and steady the ship but his fitness worries me!!!
Complain about this postThe following rules generally apply to playing Test match cricket -
1) To win a Test match - you need to take 20 wickets and score more runs than the opposition
2) To draw a Test match - you don't need to loose 20 wickets (theoretically you could still loose a Test match by not loosing 20 wickets - England did loose the match and lost only 16 wickets in the process)
3) To loose a Test match - you need to have Duncan Fletcher as your coach and Andrew Flintoff (who is the coach's "YES" man) as your captain.
England lost the Ashes the moment they followed rule 3. If Andrew Flintoff had any brains on his shoulders, he would have gone with Panesar/Read combination. Read only because you need to have a better wicket keeper for a good spinner.
The theory that you want batsmen till No. 8 is nothing but stating that we are happy to play for a draw (remember rule 2 from above?) - in essence stating that we are going to make sure that we don't loose 20 wickets and hence don't loose the match. The fact that there are people in the team that are not capable of taking 20 wickets ensures that you are not playing to win a Test match.
Test match cricket is all about specialists. You need good openers at the top of the order, solid batsmen in the middle and then bowlers that can take 20 wickets. An all-round keeper is a luxury, it should always be remembered that a keeper's primary job is to keep. Agreed, people are always going to go in with keepers who can bat a bit, but you should never take your eye off the primary responsibility. In any case, if the top order have done their job properly, you will only require about 20-30 runs from the keeper and 20-30 runs from the lower order. In theory to add about 50-60 more runs, you cannot compromise on quality bowlers.
I believe England lost the match on the 3rd day - not when Giles did not take the catch, but when they could not force more than 4 wickets, and Hoggard did not have half the support that he so required to take the remaining wickets. Even his 7-for should never have happened. It just suggests that he was over bowled, because no other bowlers were taking wickets at the other end.
Complain about this post12 hours on and the pain still hurts. My impending trip of a lifetime to the MCG & SCG Tests, now look like being one big anti climax. I could genuinely cry. Christmas is cancelled for the English, but has come early for the Aussies.
Complain about this postYou just don't declare at 6-551. Leaves you very vulnerable to ....................
Dad's Army 2 ... Barmy Army 0
Complain about this postDon't know that the B Army's jubilation at the scoring of any run on the 5th morning inspired the team with confidence?
I am in my mid 40s and can honestly say this is the biggest single England cricket disaster in my lifetime. This morning I was stunned. Yes there have been horrid series and perhaps the first test capitulation in 89 given its later significance was pretty bad, But this one, given the state of the series, and the efforts to get back in to it which have now been thrown away, is just the worst. The fact it is the largest ever declared first innings total to lose a test says it all.
I knew we had bowling problems before this series but the batting looked pretty sound. Two words: no bottle. (except Collingwood) The batters cannot take real pressure - first innings Brisbane, second here. Jones could barely reach the shot he got out to, Pieterson avoided sweeps throughout the first innings, the awful run-out etc etc.
I agree with a previous mail - if Panesar had dropped the Giles catch what would Fletcher had done. Only one thing to do now, attack. If Panesar is dropped again I reluctantly would have to agree with Mr Boycott. Mr Fletcher may like to show he is in charge, but he is only a manager acting on behalf of a nation. My sympathies to those making the long trip for the remaining tests.
Complain about this postAfter all the rubbish about Warney and McGrath over the first two days my smug meter is still spinning off the scale. England have possibly the most inept coach in the game and the sooner he books a taxi for himself and Gilo the better. Thanks for beating us last year because what you've done is bring us on to another level.
P.S. Ha ha ho ho tee hee hee
Complain about this postI cannot believe we took Monty and didnt play him.
Then this shocking defeat !!! It would not have happened with Monty bowling.
Collingwood and KP batted well,in the first innings so why throw it away.
When we lose the Ashes Fletcher should resign along with Gravney.
Replace them with an British Coach and Chris Cowdrey as Chairman of Selectors.
Complain about this postYou've got it right, Jonathan. I have felt for a long time that England has skilled and dedicated players, but they all lack the mental strength that is so obvious in the Australian camp. They allow themselves to become distracted and dispirited as a result of things going wrong - or the other side doing well. I have no idea what psychological preparation the England team does - but, clearly, it is inadequate. Focus, focus, focus - all successful sportsmen practice becoming ruthlessly single-minded, but it doesn't seem to be something Brits can do. Which is why we have so few international super-star sportsmen. There are parallels in the football World Cup last June and the recent poor rugby results. When will we ever learn?
Complain about this postWhen will we understand what it means to "get the psychology right".
OK, so it was a bad performance, a very bad performance. So now we all think there is no way England can win any test matches? Do you think the Ozzies on day three thought "well, there is no way we can win this...". Did Shane Warne think "crickey, I'm rubbish, my career is over". Your right - they didn't! They always believe they can win, and this belief consistently carries them forward.
Coming off the back of such a historic defeat there are a lot of lessons for England to learn. But if they learn them well, and truly believe they can turn it around, I believe they can come roaring back in Perth.
Complain about this postAs soon as Flintoff was named captain for the series i began to believe that the ashes would be surrendered. He has barely played all year through persistent injury, is our most important seam bowler, struggles to make enough runs at No. 6, and then england selectors then burden him with the toughest job in cricket - captaining a side going to Australia. Coupled with the outrageous decisions to persist with Jones and wheel in Giles from the physio room for the sake of 30 runs (which our top 5 should get anyway), the selectors and head coach should bare the brunt of any criticism.
Complain about this postUnbelieveable.
Fletcher's stubborn pride has cost us this Ashes. He knows damn well he's wrong, you could see it in his face.
Surely Panesar must play in the next test...but it seemed blindingly obvious last time, so i wont raise my hopes.
Complain about this postThe so called team spirit that is said to exist is proving a major handicap - in my opinion. When a batsman makes a serious error of judgement -and it is happening far to often - what is the team reaction - a pat on the back and a "never mind mate".
What should take place is the roasting that I suspect any Aussie in similar circumstances would be subjected to.
Cosy chats & pats do not belong in the fiery furnace of a test match. What we want are fighters, prepared to "lay down their lives" for England and if they can't hack it go home!
Complain about this postRoger Dawson (in 951) wrote:
鈥淏ring back Ian Botham as team manager/coach, and see if he can inspire a repeat of 1981!鈥
The same Botham who reckoned that Warne and McGrath are too old for test cricket?
Complain about this postto all of you who have used this site over the past weeks to call the aussies 'dads' army', to say the aussies are arrogant and not as good as they think, who said warne was past his best, i would just like to say................................. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Complain about this postOnly way England can be competitive is to attack and take the fight to the Aussies. That is how we won the ashes last time. Why is Duncan Fletcher so negative now? Play Giles and Jones for batting means he does not trust the batsmen in this team. I assume Duncan is confident that his bowling dept can take 20 wickets to justify dropping Panesar. My opinion is Duncan is getting too old for the job.
I remember that Giles was the one who came to the defence of Fletcher when Boycott was critical of the coach. Boycott was correct. Giles was no good so far either as a bowler or batsman. Panesar would have been a handful on a 5th day pitch. In fielding terms Giles dropped the ashes by dropping Ponting.
England should play the best wicketkeeper and not jones. In my opinion Duncan is one of the best coaches we have had but now it's time for him to go. We need new tactics and new thinking not endless excuses.
Complain about this postWhat a disgrace.Are they professional cricketers.
Complain about this postPerhaps we would be better sending the womans
team they certainly would not have given up.
Why dont they do the decent thing and come home and save us all this embarassement.No
wonder the Aussies laugh at us.Its a pity we have not the same umpires we had when we won
at home.Remember the dubious decisions quite
a few how we need them now.
England got what they deserved.
Complain about this postI am sick of watching Harmison moping about on the field. If he misses home so much, send him there on the next plane and replace him with a player who at least appears to want to be part of this tour.
3 terible umpiring decisions made the difference on te last day, but I didnt complain when England benefitted from them in the last series, so I guess its true, what goes around comes around
I'm a bowler. I believe the batsmen should bat and the bowlers should take wickets. Simple.
Complain about this postGiles doing both is a nightmare. He is far from an allrounder.
If Fletcher wants to bat down to No 8 then put our normal night watchman (Hoggard) there.
Pull out Giles and Harmison (who is not at his best) and give Monty and Mahmood a game.
I cant help feeling 11 of the Barmy Army could have achieved a draw yesterday!!
Without Vaughan, Trescothick and Simon Jones I knew we'd struggle. England won tests in the summer with Read and Panesar in the side and they can be justifiably disgruntled; Panesar has proven to be a wicket taker and much more dangerous than the more stoic Giles.
Complain about this postPanesar may be the key; the Aussies were talking about him before the series and were obviously relieved at his omission.
If Ponting can be bowled out forless than fifty once or twice then we can start pressuring them.
A bit of faith in Harmison will reap rewards, the aussies have psyched him out because they are scared of him. We are light of a senior batsman to steady the ship but Fletcher should show a bit more faith in those batsman that are playing; Giles a number 8? Flawed thinking. Panesar can take the wickets to compensate.
I am really perplexed as to why Flintoff declared the first innings. They were going well and could easily have knocked another fifty and used another hour. Australia would have been buried then. I've watched cricket for a long time, and few sides come back to win when the first team score 600+. 550 was not enough and I thought so at the time.
Complain about this postIt does make me laugh a bit to read people suggesting that Vaughan should be brought straight back into the side, usually by people criticising the decision to pick Anderson and Giles after they haven't played for a year.
While I agree that Giles & Jones shouldn't have been picked, I'd be wary of picking someone who hasn't played for the bestpart of a year without first making sure they are in some kind of form.
Complain about this postHa ha... A note from NZ. I don't even think we could have lost from there. Serves you right for trying block your way to stumps.
Complain about this postEngland were never going to retain the Ashes from the start (always talked up just like the England football team who've never actually won anything in decades) but I didn't think it woud be this bad.
Complain about this postThey are a bunch of chokers who have been shown to be more talk and glamour than actual play. What is even more annoying is the fact they are making excuses rather than admit they have been abysmal and actually do something about it.
Reasons they would never win:
Simon Jones was a great loss, Andersen is not even in the same league.
How many times does Geraint Jones get talked up yet still fail to deliver and be picked.
Harmisonn has been in terrible form all summer yet somehow people were surprised at his current terrible performance.
Giles over Panesar - it's such a joke it's not worth discussing.
Freddie would never be 100% fit in time and adding captaincy was always going to be too much.
Petersen - a fantastic great player at times but the brains of a rocking horse who can only play one way.
On Aussie home soil the Aussies would be a different prospect and although their over excessive calling sometimes borders on cheating (witness their guilt reaction on Strauss dismissal) they still have confidence and desire - something the glamour boys of England don't.
Well I'm as a Pom living in Australia and today I become a Ausatralian, looks like not a test to soon. Engalnd just lost it
Complain about this postI was in a semi conscious state in the middle of the night when I thought I heard England were 97-7 with Giles having just being caught off Warne. Just another episode of the ashes related dreams I've been having of late... I mean this was by far the most ridiculous and surreal of all scores! Unbelievable!
To be fair England have paid the price for the utterly spineless selections. Giles average for the test is 27. Like his overall average it counts for very little. One pointless not out and a duck, just when a 20 would have been priceless... Then no attacking spinner to contain the Aussies march to the match.
Whilst England played 4 great days of test cricket, the timid, 'safe' selections of DF's pals got the result they deserved.
Surely Panesar, Read and even Mamhood are an absolute must for the next test? Mahmood was supposedly dropped as he's expensive! Well isn't it better having an expensive wicket taker than the three expensive trundlers out there?
Complain about this postSo where has that fight & positive attiude from England in the 2005 Ashes gone ?? Even in that first test, where we lost, at least Harmison drew blood from Ponting. This time we've been timid throughout. Yes a few bright spots from Colly, Hoggy, Pietersen (in part) and Freddie's bowling.
I agree with most of the planet that Monty should play (yet another sign of negativity in picking Giles !) - but the biggest change required is simply attititude not players. They showed it last year, but where on earth has it gone ?? and WHY ???
Surely this day England should have looked to carry on as on the end of day 4 and play simple & positive, then either go for it & stick 250 lead by lunch, or grind the old codgers into the dirt batting all day - instead we got a bunch of frightened rabbits!
Complain about this postI ask everyone to spare a thought for the poor bastards who are English and in Adelaide .Can you imagine the ridicule they're going to get ?
Complain about this postThe problem with the current England team is not the last days batting. When we won the ashes there were similar occasions where we batted poor but we made sure of batting well on the other occasion.
The real problem is getting 20 wickets from Australia. Michael Vaughan's captaincy we badly miss and don't believe Flintoff will ever lead us to victory (look at Sri Lanka match couldnt bowl out their team in english conditions). Our bowling attack was feared in the last ashes. All fit and bowling well compared to now when none have been fully fit over summer. Harmison will never take too many wickets as mentally fragile but would pick up a few. Hoggard needs to bowl a lot of overs to pick up wickets as proved in this match. Flintoff has spells. Giles was tidy in last series. The bowler we badly miss is Simon Jones who constantly came on and took wickets last series. Who have we got now? Anderson, Plunkett or Mahmood? All expensive bowlers who cannot bowl line or length. In fairness to Anderson though he hasn't played much due to injury. We must bring in Panesar but it wont be enough. Vaughan and S.Jones need to be fit and playing well. One other thing is why Chris Reed was dropped - G.Jones was dropped for not scoring runs. Has he all of a sudden be making centuries? Fletcher needs to look at his panic decisions over the last 2 matches at why he has gone back to Giles and G.Jones
England need to focus on taking 20 wickets nothing else matters or be ready to be the team who lost the ashes 5-0.
Complain about this postHere is the differance between the Aussies and the Poms. England lead on the first innings and dont have to bat last on a 5th day wicket so therefore are the only ones who should have any chance of winning,but it is the Aussies who wake up on the last day and try to win the game.
Complain about this postAs an Aussie I can tell you it was wrong to add the captains responsibility to Flintoff and has had the same effect it had on Botham in the 1980's. What actually are Anderson and Giles contributing to your team at the moment you might as well play with 9 men. Harmison needs a slap under the chin for the extra workload he has put on Flintoff as a bowler. I just hope it doesn't end up being 5-0 but I am starting to think that maybe it will.
Now the recriminations are over (Not!), here is my prescription for the new team sheet and management structure.
The chances of winning are slim, but I think this is the best that can be done under the circumstances. Ideally it needs some people to take decisions for themselves, rather than have them forced upon them.
Cook-Stays. He has the temperament and I think there are some good, unexciting runs to come from him.
Strauss-stays
Vaughan-If he thinks he can manage it.
His value is incalculable, remember Brearley. And he will frighten the Aussies.
Pietersen-Carries on playing the same. He should be as high up the order as possible to keep the scoring rate up.
Collingwood-Stays. Should also be used as a boring, defensive bowler.
Bell-Stays
Flintoff-Stays. But not as captain. He will play better without the pressure. But he must offer to resign as captain.
Reed-In. Jones out. This shows that the change is serious and Fletcher's favourites must perform to remain in the team.
Mahmood-In. For Harmison (out). Harmison should admit he has a Trescothick problem, and resign first.
Mahmood is high risk, but we need to win.
Panesar-In. Again, we need a bowler to help us win. And Giles is a waste of one spot in the team. Panesar should also bat here because he is more likely to score a boundary than Hoggard.
Hoggard-Stays. The best place for him. he can try and hang around with Collingwood.
Duncan Fletcher:
Ideally Duncan Fletcher should resign and be replaced by almost anyone, (if they can't get Geoff Boycott in!). The main point is that his mentality either changes, or goes.
Also, if Vaugan cannot play, then the captain (Strauss or Flintoff) should take direct advice about tactics and field placements from Vaughan via the 12th man or mobile phone.
I know there are only four "main" bowlers plus Pietersen and Collingwood but I see little alternative. They either take wickets or get spanked. But there is now nothing to lose.
But there is also much that could be done in the thinking department, such as placing the rubbish fielders in places that could tempt the Aussies into throwing their wicket away.
Complain about this post2005 the greatest series ever.......
2006 the biggest disapointment ever........
I will bet my life that that Monty would have taken more wickets that giles......
I bet my life that there will be no change to the line up for the 3rd test.
Complain about this postAs an Aussie, and a genuine lover of the game, I think that rather than be overly critical of Englands effort, credit should be given to the Aussie side. We never gave up beleiving we could win and in Warnie we have been gifted the greatest spin bowler, if not bowler, of all time.
Complain about this postWhilst I am just delighted with our win, I do feel for matther Hoggard who gave everything he had, and would have been a deserved winner of the man of the match.
England are attempting to beat a fired-up Australia in their own back yard with half a team.
Complain about this postAfter two tests, Pietersen, Bell, Collingwood, Flintoff and Hoggard are the only people to have contributed.
A Champion Team will always beat a Team of Champions- or in England's case 2 champions (Flintoff and Peterson) and 9 Chumps....
So much for writing us off as Dad's Army- the superb blend of youth (Clarke and Ponting) and experience (Warne and McGrath) sees Australia home in comfort.
You may have won the Ashes at the Oval but you lost them at the Adelaide Oval because of several reasons which I'm only too happy to present:
1) A frontline bowler (Harmison) too shy for frontline combat
2) A pedestrian back-up seamer (Jimmy)
3) A spin bowler who is yet to spin the bowl (Giles)
4) A suburban grade wicket keeper (Jones)
5) A opener with inadequate technique (Cook)
6) A coach who talks agressive yet selects defensive
Oh and you just happened to run into the GREATEST CRICKETING TEAM THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN- Champions from 1 to 11. Their feats will be remembered for lifetimes....
Ponting's brilliant 142- the best since Bradman
Clarke's composed 124- the day pup become top dog
Gilchrist's sterling 64- the return of the master blaster
Hussey's superb 91 and 61- Mr Cricket does it again
Warne's 4-48- The Messiah strikes
Stuey Clarke's tight line and length
Brett Lee- White Lightning- swinging both ways
Glen McGrath- Oooh Aaah Mr McGrath
To win test matches at least 8 of the 11 must contrubute not just 3 as was England's case....
Oh well- hope you enjoyed it while it lasted- B/c it looks like a return to normal service for you lot gentlemen
Complain about this postAs an Englishman and Warwickshire fan living in Australia pains me to say it but we have to drop Giles for Panesar. Speaking to Aussies everyday they respect Monty as they watched him all summer put Pakistan in a spin.
Complain about this postDuncan if you read this don't be stubborn and stick with players because you feel you have to..I would like to see Monty, Read & Plunkett/Mahmood play in the next test for Giles, Jones & Anderson.
Special mention for Colly at least someone showed some fighting spirit well done.
Absolute shambles...
Where do I start....? Giles. Get him on a plane home. Ashley Giles is NOT an international cricketer.
Monty must play to give the Aussie batsmen something else to think about. The likes of Ponting, Clarke, Hussey etc. will just take loads of runs off Giles without even breaking sweat if he plays again this series.
Harmison - I cannot believe that Nasser Hussain stated that the reason Harmy is out of sorts is because maybe he is homesick... I mean the guy is a PROFESSIONAL cricketer. It's like having a Window Cleaner who is scared of heights... please drop this guy.
Captain - Flintoff should not be skipper. England won the Ashes last year first and foremost due to Vaughan's leadership. There was no leadership on the field for pretty much the whole of the second test. Give Strauss a chance.
Also out with Anderson and in with Saj. And finally, somebody please tell Fetcher that he cannot fool the cricket fans with the rubbish he comes out with in tv interviews.
Complain about this postEngland need an Australian coach - someone who knows how to attack a team and not rely on the use of substitutes
Complain about this postWhy were so many of Englands batsmen paying at balls from Brett Lee that were wide outside of off? Why were so many batsmen playing at balls pitching outside leg?
They would have stood more chance if they had left the bat in the dressing room and used Geoffrey's stick of rhubarb - at least they might not have found the edge so often!
PS What a load of rubbish - this series isn't dead and the Aussies have at least shown what can be achieved if you arent defeated before you set foot on the pitch.
Complain about this postI went to bed thinking this will turn out to be a draw in the morning paper, we will go to the 3rd match with pride and passion. But as soos as I logged into the bbc sports page in the morning, I was completely shocked! I thought that was a bad dream.. I can't beleive we lost this game, how on earth did we manage to loose a game like this!
Can some one tell me why did we pick James anderson? Where is our bowlers who should be leading the attack, we went to defend the ashes without realising that we needed genuine bowler who will run thru the australian top to tail.. please can someone tell the team what to do next..
Complain about this postI only wish the English team had the same resolve as the English supporters who were sitting around me during the last session. Even in the last innings they were still sufferring watching Giles and Anderson bowl with the tactic of hoping that the Australians would get themselves out and watching Pieterson turn an meek 3 into a 7. These decent people who traveled to the opposite side of the Earth deserve more. As an Australian I have the utmost respect for them and Flintoff, but the rest of the team is incipid at best.
Complain about this postI can understand the selection for the first test. (For the record, I am also a Geraint Jones fan over Chris Read). I believe that for the team, which was such an important reason for winning the ashes last time, then Jones is the right man. (He's keeping has so far been pretty much spot on.) Anyway, enough waffle. I said it from day one of this test. I believe that England really missed a trick by not picking Monty Panesar for this test. they took the easy option. They followed the Australians. (Don't we always?). I believe Anderson is a poor mans Hoggard, (sorry Jimmy). Yes, he's a good bowler but I feel that with all his injury worries and the amount of tinkering with his action, he's lost the "raw" ability with which he burst on the scene. No. Panesar for Anderson, that would have been my selection and I will stick by the fact that I think we didn't play two spinners, because they didn't. Also (sorry to bore you, I'm on a role). Strauss as captain, not Fred. Am I the only person that noticed how Strauss responded when given the captaincy against Pakistan? And finally. I can't believe we're in this position against a bunch of old men. Yes they're good, but christ, they're old men playing a game that lasts five days in sweltering heat! Come on boys!!!!!!!!
Complain about this postThis is what happenes when you make a flamebouyant guy the captain. Come on Freddy is a hitter at best, not a Cap.
Complain about this postAmazing how all of your bloggers lay the blame at DF, AF and the rest of the hapless England team when in reality they were outplayed, outwitted and outgunned by a superior team (emphasis added).
Gracious losers?
There are none on this website
Complain about this postLove hearing you on the radio Aggers, keep up the great work. A shame that England's slide started from a dodgy call from Bucknor, but boy, some pretty daft cricket followed from the Poms. Nice for Australia to be on the winning end of massive innings from the team batting first yet still losing for a change.
If you bump in to Ashley Giles, tell him, thanks from everyone here in Australia!
Complain about this postI'm so shocked! Couldn't believe the score until I realise how uncertain the game of cricket is. Still, I praise for our team in Australia. Blame to selectors and the coach who should have guided our hard working players to achieve the target. Is there any politics involved in selecting the best team for the country as I can't believe we have the lack of talents?
Complain about this postI am practically speechless. What on earth happened? Did they think they'd got in the bag and just not bother turning up for the second innings? Other than Paul C and Matthew H, I am absolutely ashamed of the English cricket team. Freddie, you're a lovely chap and great at the game, but leadership takes more than popularity. Ash - you have had your day in the sun. Geriant, don't even look at me. Ego - you are all balls and no trousers. I could go on. But it may kill me.
Complain about this postenglanddd r da most over rated pile of cr*p i have ever seen, u always talk a good game but neva produce, i luv wachin eng play any sport cus dey always looose!! Pakistan r so much beta dan eng nd we only lost cs half our teem was missin, so agenst da aussies u hav no chance. and all ur commentators over rate eng so much especiall nasser hussain. I thort this series would have been close..............................TO 5-0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! )(so far so good!!!!)
Complain about this postHow do you manage to do it? I came back from a couple of days hiking in the Andes and expected to find a draw or an Australian loss but somehow the English managed to loose the un-loosable.
Complain about this postAndrew Flintoff麓s batting is being found out and Shane Warne is showing why he was hard done by not winning the man of the series in the last Ashes. Flintoff is a first rate bowler but a second rate batsman and should be batting at number 7. England desperately needed Simon Jones playing to be competitive in this series.
Sir, Englands batting is very fragile To be dismissed for 129 on a good track is unforgivable We cannot hope to beat the Aussies without making runs. There are to many dashers in the side.
Complain about this postThe absence of Michael Vaughan is a massive loss. I would have liked to have seen M.Butcher or M. Rampracash in the squad. Although Flintoff is a class player (his bowling is crucial) his batting is very hit and miss (more miss than hit). He plays to many shots to early in the piece. Top batsmen establish themselves at the crease before playing shots. Regards John
Why is it that we have to wait for a disastrous defeat before we make some fundamental changes to our national sides.
Read, Mahmood and Panesar were form players going into the series, yet were dropped for half fit old guard players. Why did we wait for a world cup exit in order to drop Beckham?...is it that England only aspire to be plucky losers?
I'm really miffed and the coach and players need to look at themselves rather than praising the Aussies. We'll probably now play the keen youngsters but it'll be all too late.......
Complain about this postI have heard the usual suspects getting the flak from all quarters. Ashley Giles, Harmison, Pieterson. But I haven't heard anyone question paul Collingwood's futile innings that lasted 120 balls. Why did a player who scored 200 in the first innings clam up and refuse to hit the ball off the cut strip.
The run rate was an embarassment, it was justified by the England camp with the sudden reverse swing from Brett Lee and the magic of Shane Warne.
Even in the days of the West Indies pace bowlers sending down 10 overs an hour - all at the batsmans head did a run rate even come close to the binary code that Collinwood was compiling in the scorebook.
Did he lose the plot or was it a tactical decision?
Complain about this postAs a Pom living here in Australia it was with a heavy heart that I turned on the TV late afternoon to see England bowling Giles, who was getting next to no spin and constantly pitching off a length, as Australia were knocking him about the park as if in a one day game. I turned the TV off...too painful to watch.
Complain about this postBring back Strauss. He is an excellent Captain and great player. Let Fred just play well. Please!!!!
Complain about this postI always said that 551 was too low to declare. We should have set a score to put Australia completely out of site.
Complain about this postThis test was always about rebuilding confidence, not necessarily the result. A draw would have given us the platform to really push for a win in the next test but instead we have completely shot our confidence and unless we make the correct changes, it will end up 4 or 5 nil.
tactical naivety from Fletcher, wants to have a long tail in recalling Giles surely he is in the team to take wickets which Panesaar WAS doing prior to being inexplicably dropped. No way back now team are demoralised. September 2005 banished to history, i think Warne will be around for the next series in the UK.
Complain about this postGiles is the weakest link- I can't believe he is even selected for the tour. He lacks imagination in his bowling and apparently was low in confidence to face the challenge of using the rough in the fourth innings.
England failed to win this match, not when Giles dropped Ponting, that can happen to any one, but the way he bowled to Shane Warne right after tea on day 4- was a illlustration of lack of ideas. Pietersen should've bowled, as he was getting on the Warne's nerve and Hoggart should've been brought back right way for Warne.
Having said that, being a nuetral audience, I have to appreciate the belief of the Australian side, a great inspirational bunch- the aging squad is like a candle shining bright at the last inches of its breath.
Complain about this postGiven the state of play, has there ever been an England captain to play a shot worse than that played yesterday by Andrew Flintoff?
Complain about this postThe reasons we lost this game are as follows:
Three of our best players are out injured, one of whom is the best captain we have had for some while.
Our bowlers are not accurate enough and our batsmen are not consistent enough.
But most of all, at this level of sport you need matchwinners. The two best bowlers in the Aus side are Warne and Mcgrath. Both can turn a match single handely. Our two best bowlers used to be Harmison and SImon JOnes. One is injured and one has a chronic lack of form.
Their two best batsmen are ponting and hussey. Ours are Collingwood and Pieterson - who are not as good as the australian ones.
It reminds me of tim henman. He doesnt have a really big weapon (serve, forehand or backhand) to beat the very best. But he has enough to do semi finals etc (in his prime).
Our cricket teamis similar. They are not a bad side, but their top players are not performing, and maybe not good enough when compared to the australians at the moment. We can beat lesser sides, but when you are playing the bast your weaknesses become all aparent.
I actually don't think there is a massive difference between the sides. BUT our top players need to perform at the very best of their abilities for a least one session in a match and for the remainder be very very good. And they are not doing that.
The answer is not single handely Monty. He's good but I don't think he's good enough to turn a whole match. However that is not to say he shouldnt play. But if he is picked then dont lump all the pressure on him to win it single handly.
Finally we were very lucky that the collapse that happaned today didnt happen at the last day at the Oval. If warne had caught pieterson when he should have. We would have definately collapsed and lost the game, as we have done today.
We can draw the series but we have to perform and simply we are not near the top australians in doing this.
Complain about this postLike many thousands of people in the UK, I have given up many hours of precious sleep to support this England side from under the covers of my chilly English bed. Last night my sporting masochism was as victorious as the Aussies; my reluctance to listen, undermined by my refusal to sleep as I tossed and turned in a frantic nightmare that was actually unfolding from inside the silent radio. Each time I dared switch back on, as sure as you're born, another wicket would fall as the unpredictably predictable unfolded over 40 horrible overs. Only England could let slip a game that they had held so firmly from the moment KP and Colly had joined each other in the middle on day one. It was fitting then that having finally dosed off in distraught despair, I woke as the defeat was sealed. I believe I even heard, in my subconscious state, the one piece of English quality from my DAB speakers: Boycott's 'stick of rhubarb' jibe, qualitfied by Aggers' 'custard' retort. And what puddings our boys were.
Complain about this postFletcher has to go. Giles and Jones were wrong picks. I can semi-undersdand the logic, but it would have been a different game if Giles (the batsmen, because lets face it he's not a bowler) had held the catch of Ponting when he was in his thirties. He's taken the team as t=far as they can go. Woolmer is my man to succeed.
Complain about this postI've seen some of the dismassls and they were a disgrace. I thought they were professional sportsmen! Flintoff's waft outside leg was village to say the least.
Jones and Giles need to be replaced by Read and Panesar. Anderson did nothing; we're missing Simon Jones.
The Ashes have gone, let's not make it the humility of a 5-0 drubbing.
Giles and Jones MUST be dropped! Bring in Read and Panesar!!!!!!
Complain about this postwell what can one say after the most appalling batting display ever. there i sat in oz with ny aussie wife rolling on the floor firstly at our team selection then at our woeful bowling then splitting her sides at our second innings batting and then nearly a cardiac arrest at our bowling again.at least i shut her up with our first innings
Complain about this postIt looks as if each individual's attitude on the pitch mirrors one of the three cornerstones of management attitude to selection; nervous, misguided or defensive. The Aussies have again relied on their usual traits; self-belief, technique and tenacity. This series was lost the moment the England team sheet for the first test was posted, not for the lack of Vaughan, Trescothick and Jones, but for the omission of Mahmood and Panesar. The Aussies smelled weakness and applied themselves ruthlessly as they simply always do.
Complain about this postok enough about my aussie wifes fun [previous blog] only one man can be held resposible for this utterly appalling display and yes that you fletcher. i can see you now in the pre second innings dressing room. ok lads go out there and be totally negative do not play shots or try to score runs as this will give the aussies great hope and put us under unbearable pressure too the point were the aussies can roll us out for a pitance. that is why i picked the team i did i needed a spinner who cant spint and a keeper who can keep. so what if i end up with so much egg on my face you could make the worlds largest ommlette from it.
Complain about this postYes the selection was wrong and there needs to be changes, especially in the bowling department, but lets face facts. For some reason this group of players lack the mental strength to beat the Aussies in their own back yard. Remember the 2nd Test of the Ashes last year? We almost contrived to lose that before winning by 2 runs. If we had gone 2-0 down there we wouldn't even be holders of the urn. We won it and the support of the country drove the bandwagon forward.
You could almost smell the fear in our batsmen when Warne came on this morning.
Harmison can't perform unless he is cuddled, cajoled and molly-coddled; Giles is past it and injured; Anderson is ordinary at best and Jones struggles to make runs consistently. Be radical Fletcher (and Flintoff - he's responsible for selection too) and make these changes. Its not good enough to say you don't want to press the panic button - we're 2 down with 3 to play!
Complain about this postyes it was a disaster and the ashes have probably gone but.... for long periods warne was ordinary, mcgrath and lee got spanked. there were so many people talking up the positives up until today. we have to find them to the next match- we could see that for long periods the aussies look beatable. we have to believe that is still the case- england only need to eliminate the stupid shot selection and hold on to the simple catches for things to look very different.
we all dissagree with DF's team selection and he will probably have to pay for his selections later. i think the injuries we have suffered has made DF go negative without jones- loosing the big welsh man was massive- we lack a cutting edge and with tresco and vaghn not there DF clearly did not trust strauss cook colly and bell to make the runs- so why play them? but now by blooding our new talent- monty, mahmood, cook joyce and reed we can show we are still a good side and prepare ourselves for the future.
remember warne hasn't long left, mcgrath is nearly finished and the famous aussie strengh in depth doesn't look too convincing we may loose the ashes this time but the aussies won't have a prayer of keeping them! we have to stay possitive and believe we can turn this around!!!!!
Complain about this postI'm an aussie, and after watching the match i couldnt help but feel for the English.
When the English came to the crease for the start of their second innings. It appeared as though they had no plan for the match.
My guess is Flintoff had no clue what to do, so just would just 'go with the flow'.
Not offering shots against Warne is suicide, England had the upper hand on Warney up until yesterday.
Flintoff's ability as a cricketer is second to none, but his vision and decisions as a captain are lacking.
When Ponting and huss, came to together, and they started to find gaps, and ease singles, and rotate the strike. The english body language was one of defeat already.
I have tickets to the test in sydney, and i want a contest!
Complain about this postTime to take stock. Our bowling in 2005 was based on four attacking bowlers who didn't let up with one back-up bowler (Giles) to fill one end while they rotated and rested. Well we now only have 2.5 of the 4. Flintoff and Hoggard are still there and doing okay. Harmison is slowly (very slowly) getting better, we know is or has been world class and Perth may be the most suitable pitch of the whole tour. Its worth persevering with him. What Fletcher hasn't realised is that the replacement for Simon Jones isn't Anderson or Mahmood, its Panesar. He is an attacking bowler and should be treated as such.
If Panesar becomes the fourth attacking bowler, then Collingwood could be the back-up bowler with his steady medium pace (he's no worse than Giles). This would also enable us to bring in an extra batsman, drop Flintoff to 7 to take some of the batting pressure off and bring in Read who is a better keeper than Jones:
Strauss
Complain about this postCook
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood
Joyce
Flintoff
Read
Hoggard
Harmison
Panesar
Flintoff.... cover up the tattoos, get that thing out of your earhole, stop spitting and act like the captain of England.
Pieterson... wind your neck in and stop preening and posing.
Giles... go back where ever you have been for 11 months, learn to catch and bowl, you won't be missed.
Jones... get off back to the valleys, boyo.
Anderson, go back to Lancashire cricket, it is your limit.
Fletcher... apologise for getting it so wrong, for not playing 'the best finger spinner' , for not playing the best wicket keeper and for coaching a bunch of chokers. Resign and give the job to Darren Lehman.
Complain about this postEngland can point to Andrew Strauss's dismissal and suggest that the umpiring error that dispatched him started the slide.
agnew - you really are the master of the excuse thats a boycott excuse. you get some tough breaks with umpires but i think it squares out over time stop your whining if england are really that good they should be able to bounce back - outplayed by the aussies once again....
those excuses sound like a typical english football fan giving off about the referee being bad in the world cup when they get put out... still sure you can rant on about ashes 2005 for 40 years like the football ones do. their only come back - "well we won the world cup". not that cricket fans are anything like that to be fair but come on one wicket really shouldnt mean that a near certain draw turns into an embarassing loss for england.
Complain about this postFirstly I'd better mention that I am English and have lived in Australia for the last 51 years. I also was hoping that England would make this a series to remember by either retaining the Ashes or putting up a damned good fight even if they did not.
No one really minds a loss if a team applies itself to the best of its ability. In this case if Brisbane's first test was a debacle (which in my opinion it was) then Adelaide plumbed the depths of English cricket incompetence. How is it possible to score 550+ for six and declare only to turn around, allow the opposition to get within a whisker of that score and then capitulate in such an abject manner?
After the first test there was unwarranted criticism of the 'Gabba pitch. This time there is no excuse. The Adelaide wicket was as benign as any fourth/fifth day test match pitch could be. What brought about this reversal of fortune? The only thing that springs to mind is either instructions to batsmen prior to the innings or the inability of some to handle the so-called pressure. What pressure? All England had to do was trundle along and either bat out the day or provide Australia with an unlikely score to chase.
I'm only going to mention one individual's performance - which is that of Geraint Jones. Many seem to feel that an alternative 'keeper is preferable. From what I saw of his performance (I didn't see every ball of the Australian innings) I thought his performance was very good. If the remarks related to his batting versus 'keeping skills relative to a possible replacement then I cannot comment as I have not seen his rival.
Ah well, Perth and the WACA beckon. Please don't let me down this time lest I fear for my sanity when reading the local press.
P.S.
Love your commentary on the local ABC, Aggers. Thanks.
P.P.S.
If K.O'K comes out with another of his hyena-like laughs you have my permission to throttle the man.
Complain about this postThanks to the to openers and the tail that never wagged. Thanks to Ashley Giles and his intimidating bowling (oh and for dropping the catch that lost the test). I'm now taking neat sh#t from all the smart ar#e Aussies in my office -- whilst you lot sleep soundly at home!
Complain about this postYou guys have the talent to win but not the attitude...it is as simple as that.
ps, c'mon give us a look at Monty
Complain about this postJust what the Aussies want. The Pom's in total disarray. Change this, no change that. New captain. Its all the coach's fault. What in the middle of a series when you are 2 down? Are you mad? Make it easy foe us and change it all. Go on! If you had a semblance of a team before you wont have if you ripe it all apart.
The WACA is a different pitch. Its got lift and don't forget the doctor in the arvo. Perth was the domain of Lillie. It is a pace man's delight. Lee and Clarke will really come to life. Just pray Lee doesn't get the reverse swing going at the WACA. Reverse swing at 95 MPH that will be fun. It's the wicket to get the ball up into the batsman's ribs. Sydney is the spinners domain and Monty will do great when you get there in January. When it really starts to get hot. It has turn and but it will be all over by then won't it. Long before then.
Give your guys a break! They are good cricketers who need their supporters right now.
What for heavens sake will you do with a spinner in Perth?
On ya's. Cheers big ears and all that.
Complain about this postHas no one spotted the Sky Sports curse yet? Get the Ashes winning England team and they start losing. Get the World Cup England Rugby team and they can't hold a bar of soap in a shower. Even England football team lost to Croatia on Sky Sports.
Perhaps the 麻豆官网首页入口 are too polite to mention it, but the omens are if you want to win don't give it to Sky Sports, perhaps its an Australian curse!
Complain about this postAs an expat for over 36 years. I believe England has lost it's attacking flair recently under Fletcher. The only way to beat the Aussies is to attack them, not sit in the crease and let them bowl you out. Team selection should be taken out of the hands of the coach. England lost Australia did not win.
Complain about this postBR Devonport Tasmania
(I apologize for the length of this post. Perhaps it's more a short column than a comment post, but I do feel it justified.)
There is nothing inherently wrong with the English team that can't be fixed with one simple action. There are traditional English ways of dealing with things that we can do and completely turn around the series.
Maybe my thinking is too Colonial period, but bear with me. I can dream, after all...
The most positive action that can be put on this is for Flintoff to resign as captain. It's an entirely positive step, not a negative one, if done properly.
We need Flintoff to say -- in private to the team is fine -- "I'm sorry, chaps. I've let you down. I'm not the Captain this team needs. Andrew will be taking over the role effective immediately, and I know you will all support him as you have supported me."
How does that fix everything?
First, someone takes responsibility for the failures, and steps down from the role they say caused them. Instant psychological boost, the cause has been fixed and the losses don't have to keep coming.
Second, everyone in the back of their mind now thinks that Freddie can concentrate on playing and pull them out with sheer ability like he used to do before. Suddenly they are anticipating the team being stronger in bowling and batting. Gives an incentive for them to pick up their game too.
Third, Strauss is a proven captain with a good record. It's not starting from scratch in the middle of the series, Strauss as captain is a familiar quantity. It's not that big a disruption that it will break up the team's play.
There. In leaving behind Flintoff's captaincy, the team leaves behind the negative performance. In its place is the promise of a stronger Freddie as a player, free to joke around and boost morale under the new captain.
The key is that Strauss doesn't actually have to be a better captain than Flintoff. (I believe he is much better, but that isn't the point.) He has to be a different captain, but also one in that role with which they are all familiar already so there's no need for much readjustment.
What does have to happen is that Freddie comes out of the pavillion and immediately puts on a striking performance. It doesn't have to be great in the numbers, but it has to show the fire and drive and excitement on the field. That is where the morale boost comes home to roost. Suddenly Freddie has their backs, he's not distracted anymore, and winning becomes possible again.
We are English. We are accustomed to having our backs against the wall. It is what we do as a nation. The key is that the team has to have the attitude to pull that off, and it just might be that the simple act -- and the consequences -- of Flintoff accepting responsibility and handing over the captaincy is enough to do that.
Note what I have not addressed here. I have not addressed Fletcher's failings -- we can't fix that during the tour as we don't have a familiar replacement ready to step in. I have not addressed Giles "dropping the Ashes" -- if the team is good enough, any one dropped catch is not enough to lose the series. I have not blamed Flintoff for declaring early -- the timing of a declaration is always a gamble, and sometimes it will go wrong. I have not addressed line-up changes, but with change of captain should come at least some changes in line-up. And Freddie can do his resignation speech in private to the team, no need to slather his humility all over the press if he doesn't want to do it.
My point is that without some fundamental shift internal to the team, simply putting in Panesar for Giles and Read for Jones will not change the fortunes of the team. Such changes would be an attempt to stave off failure in the current system, not change to a new system where England can walk out on the field a better team.
It's a symbolic move, sure. But perhaps that's what we need right now. I don't think we can wait until Vaughn is ready to make the move then.
(I also of course think it's a practical move. I do believe Strauss is a superior captain. I do believe Flintoff has the potential to play better if he is not captain. I do believe that Strauss can make the tacitical decisions to use Panesar -- and other bowlers -- to best advantage where clearly Flintoff cannot.)
Complain about this postYes, the selection was wrong..yes, the 5th day saw one of the worst performances by a Test nation in the history of International cricket and yes, there is a mountain or 3 to be climbed if we are all to be shut up. BUT what has disappointed me since the match ended is that NOBODY from the England camp has publicly put their hand up, apologised and said "OK,that was bollocks, to put it mildly". Sure, the first four days went OK, really well at times, but that will count for nothing now in the players minds - they lost. Gloves should be off in the dressing room, all the hurt released, apologies are due to the Captain BUT hey, there are three Tests left. So, once we've all cooled down a bit, let's at least try to get this train back on track The time for recrimination is not now - it is entirely up to the Tour party as to when or if that time will come.
Complain about this postthe number of problems on this tour are so many it's laughable
1. No Vaughn, a great tactician and motivater
2. Flintoff not fit, not a great captain, having to use himself as a stock bowler rather than a strike bowler due to lack of resources. and coming back from injury
3. No Jones - he's our Glenn McGrath
4. Harmison out of form and coming back from injury
5. Giles....just awful really, why are we playing someone with an average of over 40? Plus he too is coming back from injury
6. No Trescothick - our vice captain and great opener. him leaving a week before the 1st test didnt help matters
7. Playing Geraint Jones when he hasn't played a test in months
8. Being stuck with Anderson.
9. Only having 3 players with over 50 matches under their belt
10. Cook being thrown in the deep end.
Some of this is unlucky - the list of injured and recovering key players is ridiculous for a non-contact sport.
Complain about this postSome of it is poor planning - Fletcher MUST go. His "old boys club" selection policy has crippled our team.
Playing Giles ahead of Monty would have been controversial at the best of times. when Monty is in form and Giles is coming back from injury and hasn't played a test in almost a year, it's downright idiotic.
PLaying Jones ahead of Read is similarly daft, why play Read all year then drop him for no reason for Jones?
The decision not to keep on the bowling coach who made Harmo the best fast bowler in the world is suicidal. Why not offer him a 2 year contract that he asked for? If you have a coaching set up that works and wins you the Ashes, you do EVERYTHING you can to keep it in place.
Fletcher out and lets start planning for the next series. England have shown that the 2 year period where we rose to No.2 in the world was on the back of 11 excellent players, but with sadly no depth to the squad, this has to be remedied.
I have to wonder what goes on in KP's head some times! I can think of at least 6 completely brainless things he's done so far in 2 tests. His batting is great when he gives himself a chance, but the runout, sweep, overthrows and reckless pulling/hooking is letting him down. Am I the first person not to mention Ashley or the selection? Doh, just done it :S
Complain about this postno point in harping the same points ...
so let me try to throw in a new spin (maybe i should not use it considering comment selectors might drop this) ..just take this in right spirit...
Fletcher is trying to take english cricket to the old school...
1) Fletcher does not like "foreigners" ...Who was brown in Botham's Ashes? or for that matter FlintAshes? what kolpak??? where is the pure english loin blood ??? (no sic)
2) after Ashes 05, all these bits and pieces players get MBE. there were autobiographies from players like pietersen , strauss and who nots...uhmmm...is it best not to write about your life after just one summer? How many greater older talents got the MBE after one series or published "autobiocrapy" after one series?
3) WAGS??? damn...what next? on tour nannies and tution system?
Fletcher does not want prima donnas in the team. (surprisingly, this is a point i actually think it is valid).
So in cohoots with the powers to be of english cricket, he plans the ultimate demise of english cricket, try to knock some senses into these prima donnas make them chuck their MBE into River Thames (for better men and players deserve them), give them back the pride to play for a nation and not assume to be prima donnas and superstars.
All hail fletcher...he will resurrect the english cricket. Tis not one series which makes but what people say, the innards that make a player...somehow, half way thru the post, i am actually no longer thinking it as satirical!!!!!!
now if only, Chappell is also subscribing to the same old school consipracy..for there is another nation which requires some serious kick in the rear!!!!!!
Cricket, the greatest game on earth.
Complain about this postGosh the Australians did fairly well for a bunch of old players. Every one is saying England lost it on the last day....in fact the first two days were just as bad. Yes they scored a lot of runs....but to slowly. They were always on the defensive in reality.
Complain about this postWhy all the fuss about batting down to eight - if th top order do their job then anything after seven is a bonus. We need the right bowlers to do a job that means we must have Panesar. Fletcher needs to swallow his pride accept he go it wrong and make the hard chnages required
Complain about this postpathetic england
marks out of 10
strauss[ 4]-stop hooking and give him the captaincy
cook-[2]-looks overawed -but give him 1 last chance
bell-[6]-needs to improve on his good starts.as for the run out!!
collingwood[9]-keep it going
pietersen[9]ditto
flintoff-bowler[9]
batting 3-captancy 1-naive and picks his best mates neither of whom deserve a place in the team[harmy and giles]
jones-5 kept ok but batting average
hoggard-8-keep going
harmisson1-come home
anderson-2-why was he picked ahead of mahmmod and plunkett
giles - i knew i had left somebody he gets 1/2 a point as he didnt pick himself for other comments see other blogs going back to brisbane
df -you are a disgrace and need to make changes and give us a chance
team should read strauss[capt]/cook bell pitersen collingwood joyce flintoff read mahmood hoggard monty
see no tail wicket takers and ashes may still get home if monty confidence hasnt been shattered by df abysmal man mangement
Complain about this postps aggers when are you going to admit you get it all wrong as well
I am very disappointed with the defeat but I refuse to believe this england side is useless. This side is full of talent but psychologically blown away and this can happen to the best of sides. There is a need to bring in panesar and drop Anderson but the main this is confidence needs to be installed. There is a tendancy in modern sport ( and life) to reject something or someone if there is no immediate result or as soon as there is a set back. To get on the backs of them. We need to rally round and believe in the side. The ashes will be lost it would seem but that does not mean we give up on the side that won the ashes from australia last year, the first time in 20 years. Don't follow the 'throw away' mentality of modern life.
Complain about this postA shambles,pathetic and a disgrace to the country! No, not the barmy army but the pathetic excuse of a cricket team (barring collingwood and hoggy) that gifted the ashes to the aussies.Maybe now the cricket snobs will worry more about what happens on the pitch rather than off it,i just feel sorry for the fans who paid good money to watch it.Fletcher,Giles,jones and co should give them their match fees.
Complain about this postEnglands performance can be summed up in three words "spineless and pathetic" they should sack the lot starting with duncan fletcher how this shambles can claim to represent a once proud and defiant cricketing nation is beyond belief they should all hang their heads in shame, go back to amateur status and not expect to get paid after all they haven't played in a professional manner!!!
Complain about this post1 Concentrate
2 The ability of a fast spinner
Nervous breakdown: not at all. Sick opinion and tactics. I dont believe that it was played for a draw: it was winnable.
Confusion in the batsmens minds giving rise to indecision, bad strokes, bad calls and bad running.
If you go for a win or a draw you should play for it and concentrate; not fudge. Its the players on the field that count.
Complain about this postThis was the self-destructive England of old, unsure, insecure and lacking confidence in their ability, lacking belief they could win the game before the 1st ball was bowled. Undoubtedly the second innings collapse was the reason for losing the test. However, England were negative from the off, not picking Monty Panesar as a sign of intent to go on the offensive, and more puzzling to me at the time (not with hindsight) was the 1st innings declaration with 4 wickets in hand. Surely pushing on beyond 600 would have made the game safe on what was a batting pitch and also dented the Australians psyche and put them on the back foot. Instead the Aussies were given a chink of light that was all a world-class unit needed. Congratulations to Australia, to England I say prove you are world-class also, come out all guns blazing next time as Australia did in their second innings here, go for the jugular, prove you are fit to wear the three lions or give up and move into panto, maybe Puss in Boots. Don't talk yourselves up with empty hype, England's footballers did the same before the world cup and look what happened to them. Knuckle down, believe in yourselves again, forget the first two tests and start over. Good luck, Jeremy.
Complain about this postIt's been a good few years since i've witnessed an embarassing England collapse like the one i saw yesterday. Fletcher had managed to turn things around from 2001 and ultimately create a winning, successful ashes winning team in 2005.
What's he failed to do, like so many others (Erikkson, Woodward etc) is evolve with the times and discard players that are his 'favourites' in favour of in-form players.
Although the return of Vaughan would help with the tactical aspects of England's play in Sydney, it will not do much to strengthen a batting line-up already bereft in confidence after that shambolic collapse. He hasn't played comptetitive Test cricket in over a year and would end up being a liability more than anything else.
I would replace Ashley Giles with Panesar and give the young spinner a chance to prove himself on the Australian turf, as England have no choice but to attack now and try and gain some momentum in Perth.
Complain about this postIt is a great shame that out of an island of 60Mil people we can't find eleven MEN to beat the Aussies. The sad fact of the matter is that the English "team" simply has no concept of what it takes to compete at the highest level in the international sporting arena. Why do they not get the concept that the Aussies grasped, mastered, and unfaultering demonstrated for the last 15 years that the only form of defence is attack? Rolling over as the team did in the second innings was as sad as it was predictable when their single goal was to bat out the last day.
The problem is not due to selection - in their own right each is an excellent cricketer and athelete. The problem lies in our sportsmen simple not knowing in how or believing in their ability to win. This is instilled at school level where kids are failed to be taught how to win in sports or elsewhere. Until the English overcome the psycological barriers to winning there is no way we can expect to start winning competitive test series.
Complain about this postRegime change is now required! Fletcher must go for his incompetent and irrational selection policy and Graveney must intervene.
Giles and Jones have contributed precisely nothing and now the ashes have gone. All that remains is to salvage a bit of pride by avoiding a complete steamrollering.
England's lame capitulation today was completely unacceptable and the entire team should hang their heads in shame for the hurt they have caused the cricket watching public over here. This performance fell way short of what we have come to expect and the team are a disgrace to their country. I agree with Boycott that England must stop talking a good game and start delivering pretty damned quickly!
Complain about this postPanesar would have put the Aussies under real pressure in both the first and second innings.
He has been England's most successful bowler in the Northern Summer. When he is not taking wickets he is very miserly. How crazy is Fletcher to not pick his best bowler.
With him in the team the Aussies would have got 100 runs less in the 1st innings.
Aggers, I hope you are man enough to admit you were wrong to agree with Giles selection over Panesar.
Fletcher's won't accept that his crazy selections and choice of captain have cost England the Ashes.
My theory is Fletcher wanted Freddie as he knows he can browbeat him into accepting his selections. It was only when we had Strauss as captain in the Summer that Jones was dropped.
Freddie is clueless captaining. Why did he have so few attacking fielders? The way the Aussies just milked the bowling to get 168 was pathetic.
Prove us wrong England and win in Perth. But you won't do it without Monty.
Complain about this postAfter the summer tests against Pakistan, DF called Monty Panesar the best finger spinner in the world. So he brings back Giles who has taken 2 wickets in this test with only 27 runs from his supposed better batting ; what a travesty.
Complain about this postIs it possible to bar the Aussie fans comments? You know exactly what they are going to say before you even read them. All they want to do is rub it in, rather than trying to discuss the situation. You seem to forget if our forefathers hadn't have been so forgiving, then maybe this whole situation may not have come to exist.
Complain about this postSimon Jones, Michael Vaughan. We miss them, but we also miss the application & pressing style of play. We have slid a long way in a short time....and that will not just come back in this series. Knuckle down, back yourself in a tight corner and play the best players for that situation.
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
Hang on, you Poms, you really only lost because of one poor session! Another 20 runs yesterday morning and you would have earned a well deserved draw and a big psychological advantage. 30 runs in one session on a dead wicket was a disgrace and gave the advantage to the bowlers.
You can't give any advantage to the likes of Warne and McGrath. They may be Dad's Army but they aren't the highest wicket takers for both spin and fast bowling for nothing! And you don't play arrogant or lazy shots either like Pieterson and Flintoff!
Drop Giles and either Harmison or Anderson but the rest are OK. You had the best batting (Collingwood) and bowling (Hoggard) performances this test.
Complain about this postThe Ashes have almost gone! Drop Giles, Anderson and Jones and play the team that the majority of Australia and England supporters thought. Mahmood, Read, and Panesar. If Fletcher wants to bat down to 8 then Mahmood can do that job!
Complain about this postI am an Australian and all I can think about the England team, is how sorry I feel for Hoggard and Collingwood. From the looks of it the two least talented cricketers on your team, but the only ones equipped with a positive, never say die attitude that is needed for international cricket. Especially away from home.
Englands depressingly negative approach to day five is what lost them the game. At no time did they try to pressure Australia. Bells indecisive run out is the best example of this. Australia was able to dictate play, and with someone like Warne bowling the contest was as good as over.
I also think that Freddie needs to be more decisive in his captaincy decisions. I think he is to busy trying to keep everyone happy, and ruling by the majority. If he is more decisive, and courageous in his leadership then I believe his players will follow him, and regardless of win, loss, or draw they would improve. If not they will keep on bumbling along.
Finally I am disturbed for English cricket that Anderson can get a run. I mean I can see the role that Giles can play, but Anderson is a waste of space. He would struggle to make a Aus sheffield shield team.
Complain about this postInterestingly, during / after the last Ashes tour Australia went through a lot of the angst that is happening in this blog.
Complain about this postThe upshot was that talented players the calibre of Mike Hussey (Our Huss / Mr Cricket) and Stuart Clarke have become entrenched at the expense of Simon Katich and Jason Gillespie (who were similarly slammed in 2005 - ala Giles, Jones et al) - but only after the series was lost.
England, don't wait till the series is over to get rid of the dead wood!
England gifted the Ashes back to the Aussies with a very negative attitude and display on that last day. Going out to block and not score runs is just a waste of time against a bowler like Warne. All you do is give him confidence and allow him to bowl anyway he likes. You have to show a measure of attack if the ball is there to be hit so that you make him bowl to you.
Complain about this postEngland have to change the side and play Monty, and if they do want Giles as a batsman then Anderson needs to go because he has been woeful too.
There's a lot of folk having a go at Giles for dropping a big catch, but all players drop catches. Warne droppd Pietersen in the last 2005 Ashes Test. The bigger point is the Aussies batted well under pressure, while the English descended into a complete panic.
Complain about this postI simply take my hat off to wonderful and amazing Australians who so cleverly and cannily turned a match heading for a draw into such a well-deserved win. WHAT A TREMENDOUS BOOST
to the Aussies' future prospects.They should truly be acclaimed cricket heroes!
RB
Complain about this postSometimes a setback is needed to move forward - it should now be goodbye Giles, Jones & Anderson [although I would keep Anderson in the squad - as he has shown promise].
Complain about this postMahmoud, Panesar & Read should come back as we have to win at Perth. Harmison is a strike bowler if he isnt good enough to bowl dont pick him if he is let him bowl - if he doesnt make these changes then Fletcher should go and Strauss should retake the captaincy [arguably this should happen anyway]. I FEAR HE WILL PLAY VAUGHAN VERY SOON - it seem that the less cricket you play and th emore out of form you are the greater your chance of playing.
36 years of military service and 50+ years of being an England supporter has given me a very strong exterior with which to fend off gybes from opposition supporters- mainly from the antipodes - when my team plays its trump card of clutching defeat from the jaws of victory! However, yesterday took me to breaking point! That was the most unprofessional display by a national team I have ever witnessed.
Complain about this postI arrived in Australia the week of the rugby world cup final and that together with the last Ashes series has put us POMs in OZ in an unusually successful place. All is now falling apart around our ears and those ears are taking some relentless bashing.
I reckon their will be another set of stumps and bails burned at the end of this series and for once I have to agree with Boycott - we are going to get buried!
The most simple formula for winning a Test match is to take 20 wickets.
You guys managed to do it in England in the last Ashes series with good bowling on conducive wickets. Us Aussies underestimated your attack in that series under those conditions. I think back to that series and recall how you really should have won that series more comfortably. Frailty was there but covered up by a historic Ashes series victory.
Now you have a team contesting the Ashes in Oz conditions where swing and seam are less conducive. The Aussie team are fully prepared for battle on their turf.
It's debatable whether Dads Army are as good as their yesteryear, but you could make a case that they're even better as a winning team. If Hayden and Gilchrist were in any sort of form, this series would be a white wash. And it still might come to fruition.
England's main weakness is their metal frailty, followed closely by their inability to trouble the Aussie batsmen. You do have one gem, and that's Freddy. IMO, he's all heart.
Looking forward to Perth!
Complain about this postThere is an Advertising campaign by Ford Australia called "Tonk a pom" and it is on the TV all the time down under. The thick Aussies don't even know what "POM" stands for, if they did they would spell it "POME" which stands for Prisoner of Mother England. Do your research before you spend Millions on advertising!
If we can't beat them at the Cricket then at least we can insult their intelligence!
Yours clutching at straws
The Cannon
Complain about this postThe worst shot of the match Geraint Jones in the second innings.I think even a blind man would have let that ball pass through to the keeper.He plays the game as if he is Mr Cricket.A real show pony.
Complain about this postEngland are awful- no passion when it matters!!
Disgrace and i think we have no choice but to get Michael Vaughan in as captain in the next test and Monty IN!
Complain about this postI must have been just as surprised as anyone else to wake up to defeat this morning. i managed to watch our wickets fall today but will not be able to stomach the full highlights tonight.
With a mixture of Poor shots selection, the unfortunate dismissal of Strauss and also some really brainless stuff we have managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of a draw. I kind of agree with freddie about the time scale but it was schoolboy stuff from days of old. It was interesting watching freddies interview today, I can't agree with him about Australia bowling well most of our shots were just very poor under the circumstances. We seemed to start off playing very relaxed and then realised we could lose and then the real panicky stuff came along. It is possible for this to happen from time to time when a team feels pressure, the beauty of test cricket. We have to remember this team is not the same one that won the ashes. We have long term injuries to Simon jones and Mr Vaughan. We have too many players returning from injuries Gilo, Hoggard, Harmison, Flintoff and Anderson. Geraint Jones only just back from a period of non selection and not playing well. Trescothick gone home and Cook relatively new to test Cricket and Strauss Struggling to work out Australian conditions. for me that only leaves the three Stars that have kept us looking respectable Bell, Petersien and Collingwood. This is not the team to me that will retain the ashses and we have to face this. I think we should look forward to the next test and make some valued choices. To me we currently have two bowlers who are without form and wickets, anderson and giles. both need to be dropped and Monty along wih another seamer needs to come in, it will have to be mahmood as he is in the party although i think still expensive. Batting wise we don't have too many choices but both Freddie and Jones need to start producing. I think Read should be given the gloves if Jones's poor form with the bat continues. The top five have to stay the same for the rest of the series although i was dissapointed with Ed Joyce as replacement batter, another inexperienced player. I would have liked to see Rob Key or Shah come over.
Less talk of sacking fletcher he has been very good for our team overall and we are still number 2 in the world. Lets get behind the boys and look foward to more positive stuff. I hope we have a re-look at the side and make a few tweaks so we can compete and give ourselves a bette chance of taking wickets
Complain about this postI think the problem England has is that they didn't take into account how hard it is too beat us at home. England should have drawn this match but they didn't the pressure was too much. The Perth pitch will not help either, it is not as bouncy as it used to be. It will be very hard for England to come back form this and knowing Australia they will go for the throat. If England can come back from this they deserve the title of best in the world. But I doubt they will, we don't like teams that lose on home soil.
Complain about this postThe Aussies have proven me wrong.I am really bewildered.England performance or lack thereof reminds me of the West Indies largely talented but very inconsistent and unpredictable.I am deeply disappointed and distraught by this dramatic and devastated defeat .The only consolation is that they have found themselves in the record books albeit on the negative side.If the truth be told it appears that England has been beaten into submission,but perception is NOT reality,so Let's see if England has a redemption song.As the saying goes "It's not over till the fat lady sings,but for all intents and purpose she is about to be called on the stage.
Complain about this postThe reason that England are intimidated by the Aussies is that they know that despite the media hype and the honours, they were very lucky to win the Ashes eighteen month's ago. They were within three runs of going two down in the series against an Australian team that didn't feature Glen McGrath. Only combination of rain and a Shane Warne dropped catch prevented the Aussies tying the series at the Oval.
Complain about this postDeep down they knew they would struggle to win in Australia and this was reinforced by the negativity of the selection policy. The Giles versus Monty debacle sums it up perfectly. Out specialist batsman aren't good enough so we have to change our bowling selection to help them. And please can someone stop Duncan Fletcher stop using the batting performance of Warne as an excuse for picking Giles. When Wane was originally picked for Australia, he was a rabbit with the bat but he has worked on his batting, as have Lee and McGrath. England should follow suit, pick Monty but get him to work on his fielding and batting.
The real problem was that England didn't bowl Harmison from Both ends and the Barmy Army needs new chants...
Complain about this postis there anyway the OBE can be recalled? Fletcher's decision making is going to hand the Australians the Ashes on a platter.
Complain about this postThey lost this test because Ashley Giles dropped Ricky Ponting in the 1st which cost them 100 runs. which they could of had a higher lead going in to the second innings.
Complain about this postFinally the Aussies have avenged Headingly in 1981! It took 25 years.
Let's hope that the next two tests will also reverse Edgbaston and Old Trafford crica 1981 ie England misery, Aussie payback.
Complain about this postthanks to the england cricketers from all the english fans living in australia, more grief for us from thses stupid aussies thanks to your pathetic displays !!!!!!!!
Complain about this postI think an english sports psychologist is the last thing the team needs...
I was on a tour in australia with a few english people and the guide was asking a few questions and rewarding points for correct answers. One of the english ladies having answered the previous question correctly answered the next with, "I know the answer but wouldn't want to win twice." I think that statement summed up the english mentality towards sport. Look at the rugby team, won once and now couldn't beat the canadians. Same holds true for the football team (how many stars on that shirt?). Now it looks like this evil psychosis has polluted the minds of the cricket team.
The team needs a leader who will instill confidence in the team. Freddie is not that man after watching him mope around the field with his shoulders down looking like he was going to cry.
I'm usually not one for mixing up the team in the middle of the series but after that crushing defeat that team has to be disbanded as they will share in that defeat forever. New players brings new opportunities and the team will hopefully take on a new dynamic. I say drop Gilo and Anderson and bring on Saj and the turbinator.
C'mon england, get your act together and be confident! You have the talent, just believe in yourselves!
Complain about this postPlaying players based on last years ashes win and not this years performance has been the difference. I truly believe that in order to have a more aggressive approach as a team, you need to pick an attacking squad. Attacking squads over the years have meant good wicket-taking bowlers. Can Fletcher and Flintoff honestly tell me that after losing the first test, still sticking with ashley giles was the right way to go? does batting at number 8 really mean that much. what giles gives you as a batsman and as a fielder, monty more than makes up for with his attacking bowling. in the champions trophy, we saw glimpses of mahmoods potential. it is understandable that he did not get picked for the first test but has anderson ever looked threatening at adelaide. fletcher says that anderson was picked because of his skiddish medium pace but mahmood still produced better wicket taking balls with his sometimes wayward bowling. i dont belive england can recover to win now but in order to make these next three tests a dogfight with australia, england has to go out all guns blazing with flintoff, harmy, hoggard, mahmood and monty as their five bowlers. Had it been australia that scored 551 in the first innings, do you think england would have posted 513. The answer is no because as with any good team, Australia never hesitates to attack. It is time England started thinking about winning the ashes but it might be a bit too late.
Complain about this postPanesar and Mahmood have played competitive cricket while being injury free over the last six months. What baffles me is the nature with which Giles and Anderson were brought back into the squad. Are they world class performers that they can reclaim their spot upon returning? You still have to earn your spot in the eleven. I do not for one minute doubt the competitive nature of both Giles and Anderson but you have to battle it out for your spot. For some reason, I have the feeling that Giles and Anderson knew that they would be playing in front of Mahmood and Panesar. Anderson still has a great deal of potential but last year's ashes might have been the peak in Giles career. I have to believe that with players like Mcgrath and Warne looking over their shoulders, Giles time has come to an end. I certainly hope so because to me Giles has never been more than an over glorified ODI player.
In the end, i dont know why i am writing this much even though I am a Pakistan fan. Maybe because I had the glimmer of hope in my heart for this English team to come through in the Land down under and shake up the worlds best team for once.
Guys... our backs are to the wall... but we have been here before and bounced back... as Churchill said in a speech at Eton 'We must never never, never give up'
Clearly today has been an abject one for everyone involved in the game... but we must remember some of the good points - for the best part of 4 days we stood head to head and were winning on points... but as all boxers will atest.. 11 rounds ahead on points count for nought if the opponent has a knock out punch in round 12..... and we walked straight into a knock out punch today... and were unable to evade it.
Clearly there were some abject shots played and we needed one of the senior players to take a stand, occupy the crease and value their wicket. we can look back and refer to 'this and that'... but 'this and that' are part of the game we love... but as in love sometimes that bites back too..
In the 1980's we bounced back; In 2005 Michael Vaughan out captained Ricky Ponting to win the Ashes... I remain unsure that Freddie is the right choice to be the captain... remember Ian Botham's reign... we needed Mike Brearley to come back to get the best out of Botham... and I am convinced that Freddie for all his gifts is not able to out captain Ricky Ponting... he does not have the depth of experience to do this....
I think we should have left Straus as the captain pending Michael Vaughan's return... and left Freddie to do what he is best at... Freddie has a big heart... but this is not good enough for a captain's job.....
Clearly the next couple of weeks are going to be critical ones... we need to focus on turning advantage into victory; to turn the screw when it matters most.... we needed to be more agressive when the Aussies batted in the first innings.... we let them get away to easily when we had the advantage... we lost focus and that important sense of urgency..
But all is not yet lost... it will be hard to come back from this defeat but not impossible... we now need to see Fletcher and his team at their very best to rebuild the teams self belief.... and to develop a harder crust to turn the screws... each batsman has a vulnerability... we need to exploit that to maximum advantage in the next test and see if we can get back into the series... we need a win and that means taking 20 wickets and we need to have a team that has that capability on what ever pitch they provide... strange things happen at Perth... the breeze off the sea can make a huge difference... but we do need to be at the very top of the game.
Geoff Boycott is right... we need more preparation time... one or two games are not enough to be ready for the test series...
Keep your chins up... cricket is a mighty strange game.... I have played in too many games that we lost from winning positions.... the tide will turn at some time... lets hope its is in Perth.... and once we win I believe we will go from strength the strength...
Derek Jones
Complain about this postWrexham
North Wales
Undercooked doesn't explain the half of it. In the absence of a first rate captain England have struggled under Andrew Flintoff in a similar vein to their failures under Ian Botham... similar characters, similar workrates, similar skills and similar disappointments. Two enormously influencial forces from the Ashes win are missing in Vaughan's inspired captaincy and Simon Jones's inspired and inspiring intelligent and aggressive fast bowling. Add to that a ring rusty and mediocre looking Giles, a rudderless Harmison, an out-of-depth Anderson and (regardless of the 500-odd first innings tally) brainless batting all round when it really mattered most (Pietersen should know better!) England's resistance inevitably crumbled in the face of keener and more focussed opposition. Only Hoggard & Collingwood can truthfully hold their heads up and England really can't afford to leave Panesar on the sidelines any longer. Prediction... 3-1. England will revert to type & win their customary last or next-to-last test in a dead rubber Ashes contest. Apologies for whingeing but it really is so disappointing.
Complain about this postOh dear, oh dear! What a sad reversal from the last Ashes series. Perhaps our team should fly home and enrol for 'Strictly Come Dancing' - they seem to really triumph there!!
Complain about this postThe Aussies have proven me wrong.I am really bewildered.England performance or lack thereof reminds me of the West Indies largely talented but very inconsistent and unpredictable.I am deeply disappointed and distraught by this dramatic and devastated defeat .The only consolation is that they have found themselves in the record books albeit on the negative side.If the truth be told it appears that England has been beaten into submission,but perception is NOT reality,so Let's see if England has a redemption song.As the saying goes "It's not over till the fat lady sings".But for all intents and purpose she is about to be called on the stage.
Complain about this postIts time for a change
monty for giles and saj for harmison
Complain about this posttheres no point living in hope that the harmy of 2005 summer and 2003 windies tour will be back any second and then wake up with a thud to find you have just lost 5-0
I think that the players are good enough, BUT mentally they just do not have that toughness required to assert themselves when a. losing a few wickets, or b, being thrashed in an over. They can recover for Perth, just leave then alone, moaning will not help. Bryan Williams NZ
Complain about this postDid Ashley Giles bat and field England to victory in the second Ashes Test? I bet he also picked up 20 wickets in the match.
This England side has a lot of (GIRLY) character. They can only win a Test when the opposition forfeits the match by not coming onto the field.
Complain about this postAs an australian, I can't for the life of me think of one reason why Harmison and Giles and put on the next plane home. Giles dropped catch could well have cost the English the Ashes and Harmless Harmo looks like he's pumped full of valium. England selectors should hunt around the slums for the nastiest, meanest and angriest quick bowler and direct his anger at batsmen. Harmless might have potential but how long can England wait? England batted themselves into contention but their bowlers let the chance dribble through their fingers.
Complain about this postI'll be at the WACA for the next match.
Don Herley (Perthling)
Our bowlers:
Harmy: Out of sorts
Hoggy: Playing well
Gilo: Is he really a spinner?
Anderson: Not good enough
Panesar: Needs to play
Mahmood: Eccentric
Our wicket-keepers:
Read: should play, good catcher, batter
Jones: not as good catcher, gets a high score on the rare occasion
Our batsmen:
Strauss: Tick
Complain about this postCook: Tick
Bell: No Tick - not good at Test level
Pieterson: Needs to be less arrogant
Collingwood: Fine player!
Flintoff: Rubbish captain, good bowler, only gets a good batting score on the rare occasion
Getting carried away here, I think.
For 4 days, England were at least Australia's equal and to say that England were pathetic is a disservice to Collingwood and Hoggard.
England lost this test match overnight between day 4 and 5 when they decided on their tactics for the final day. As a result England came out and played to lose whilst Australia, as alwyas, were playing to win.
The target should have been runs - we need 250 to draw this game - not overs, so that the batsmen concentrated on scoring not defending.
For that Fletcher must be responsible for he must set the game plan.
Complain about this postSorry guys you can make as many comments as you like about being depressed or even angry or just plainly bewildered at the selection of the team or tactics or any dam thing connected with the England team........BUT .......
It does not make a one tiny jot of difference.....now or in the future.
When did managers ..........of our National Football, Rugby or Cricket team take a blind bit of notice of what we the fans think ?
It seems that the more you complain and advise or just get upset.......the more they want to prove us wrong ..........
We are often proved right when they are all given a golden handshake for winning sod all.
At least DF won us the Ashes ......we have to be grateful for that and it may be sometime before we win it again sadly.
Complain about this postWe need big, big, big BIG BBIIGGG changes. Massive. HUGE.
Complain about this postI don't think we can retain the ashes. But I know this team can't.
Fletcher has made mistakes. Serious selection errors. I hope he tries to put them right, but if he doesn't I shall enjoy watching England lose.
As an Aussie who was deeply engrossed in the full 5 days of action from this test and after reading the posted comments i've got these comments to make -
Complain about this post1.Why did Hoggard only bowl 4 overs in the Aus 2nd innings? He carved us up in the 1st innings and then took the wicket of Langer in the 2nd.
2. Peterson's ego got the better of him in the 2nd innings, but at least he was looking to score
3. England played into Aussies hands by not looking to score in their 2nd innings. Warne had the bat crowded with fielders cause the Poms were not looking to score. Plus Warne is the best
4. Ultra slow scoring by the Poms on day 2 set them up NOT to win the test
The biggest mistake the selectors could have made was to appoint FLINTOFF as captain. He has a huge burden by just bowling and batting and adding the captaincy has hampered Englands chances of retaining the ashes as reflected by his performances particularly with the bat. A key difference between Flintoff and Vaughan is that Flintoff protrays himself "likeable, gregarious" character which is a stark contrast to the steelly resolve of Vaughan. Strauss would have been a better choice. His perfomances improved with the bat and his record was better as captain than Flintoffs. As suggested by Vaughan, Flintoff should continue to concentrate on what he does best;BAT and BOWl
Complain about this postFlintoff isn't a team leader. I agree he's a great player and match winner. But when it comes to making the decissions he thinks he can win it all on his own. Flintoff isn't utilising his men. Just listened to his interview he admitted (if you read between the lines) there was no action, team talk etc. He expected the players to turn up and know what to do. Compared to Ponting, who descriped the team talk and day's stratergy in the post match press conference. We need Vaughan more involved with the squad and not out on the other side of the country playing school boys. This may give us the leadership we are missing.
I think we can still retain the ashes, but a mini team overhall is in order. Monty, Read and Mahmood in. No need to say who's dropped. Few fresh faces may lift the others and we need to be positive and wiser with our choices.
Please England Bring the Ashes back home!!!
Complain about this postAll you English cricket supporters should hang your heads in shame. What a disgraceful performance from a team still high on last years luck.
Ricky Pontings men are truly the greatest cricketers in the world. They showed true AUSSIE spirit, never give up or loose hope.
No wonder you POMS get such a bagging when you come to Australia. The English cricket team truly is full of looses.
Complain about this postI was perhaps one of the very few who thought, at the end of day 4 that a result is possible on the fifth day and that it will be most probably in favour of Australia. England have to blame themselves for this defeat. Warne was never attacked and was allowed to bowl as he did. All he did was to pitch the ball outside righthanders' leg stump and let the spin do the rest (except perhaps Strauss and Hoggard's wickets). On any other day this would have been termed as negative bowling. The remainign matches are going to be all boring - all on-sided in favour of Australia. We would be luck if any of the tests last for 4 days.
Complain about this postThe Aussies have proven me wrong.I am really bewildered.England performance or lack thereof reminds me of the West Indies largely talented but very inconsistent and unpredictable.I am deeply disappointed and distraught by this dramatic and devastated defeat .The only consolation is that they have found themselves in the record books albeit on the negative side.If the truth be told it appears that England has been beaten into submission,but perception is NOT reality,so Let's see if England has a redemption song.As the saying goes "It's not over till the fat lady sings".But for all intents and purpose she is about to be called on the stage.
Complain about this postThe most disappoint day for me as an Englishman living in Australia for the last 20 years.
How we managed to grab defeat from the jaws of victory in this case is beyond me.
The worst english defeat in many a year in any sport
Complain about this postAs an England fan living in Australia I can hardly set foot outside the door today! What a shocking last day performance. Yes, sure Strauss and Harmison got bad decisions but the game was gifted away.
Taking a squad of bowlers almost all of whom missed most of the last few months cricket and trying to find form against the best team in the world by a mile was crazy at the outset. How can England persist with non performers like Harmison (Looks like he wants to be back in the north east), Giles (how the Aussies love us picking a non spinner) and Anderson (so out of his depth with a dodgy action). The pathetic bowling has put the batters under pressure through poor line and length and so set plans for each batsman.
Then the batting! When will England accept the view that Freddie and KP cannot bat next to each other in the line up. They are too alike, except that KP batted well in 1st knock, but the Aussies don't rate Freddie highly enough and he would bat lower than Gilchrist if he was an Aussie and I have to agree. He is not a match to Clarke at 6 and his shot selection is probably worse than Lee or Warne. 7 is the highest that FF is capable of batting as his record shows. How yesterday cried out for a cool head like Thorpe.
We have to have changes for the rest of the series, out go Harmison, Giles, Anderson and bring in Lewis from the reserves (at least he can bowl and line and length unlike the other squad members), Monty has to play and Dalrymple (can bat and bowl steadily). If Michael Vaughan shows any sign of form we need him in the side to skipper as well as being the only batter to have played in test matches over here.
Sorry Fletcher, your washed up and on your way after this latest debacle.
Complain about this postJust go Fletcher!
He has proved he is living in the past and can't see past his favorites. I see Giles scored a duck so where's the advantage over Monty's batting? Plus Giles dropped Ponting the other day to allow him to go on and score potentially match winning runs.......
Drop Jones - why did he hit that ball today when he was at full stretch to reach it? Drop Harmison and Anderson too. Mahmood and Monty to come in, let's look to the future not the past.
Don't bother catching the plane back to England Mr Fletcheryour time is up and you are not wanted.
Complain about this postOz sportspeople are well practised in intimidation and mind games. They do it to the NZ players but we have a lot of Maori and Polynesians who are generally pretty touch and can take it - they look even more intimidating. And of the Sth Africans don't seem to know what nerves are!
Complain about this postI think its the different upbringing here ine UK where cricketers come from polite backgrouds and seem to have social rules drummed into them from a young age. Oz and Kiwis relish the chance to get to other countries and this a primary motivating factor. Also many cricketers (eg Stephen FLeming, recently) play here in County teams so "know" the weaknesses of local English players. NZ teams get irate when told by Oz that one or two at most would be picked for an Oz team. Arrogant dits. The competition to get into a Oz top team is brutal and, once there, chaps are not going to squander it. I'm an environmental and health psychologist. My sites under review right now.
In Affectionate Remembrance of E N G L I S H C R I C K E T, which died at the Oval
on 29th A U G U S T, 1882, Deeply lamented by a large circle of sorrowing friends
and acquaintances R.I.P.
N.B.-The body will be cremated and the ashes taken to Australia.(where they should stay)
WHO SAID HISTORY NEVER REPEATS!
Complain about this postCricket is a game of fine margins and momentum. It is also a game played mostly in the mind.
Australia has a long and proud history of collapsing under pressure the way England did yesterday, especially chasing small totals - against West Indies, India, England, you name it. It's something they have turned around in recent years (starting with one-day cricket and the rare exploits of one Michael Bevan) but the slightest hint of a batting collapse is still enough to give us Aussie fans the jitters.
Anderson and Harmison looked ordinary? Well so did McGrath and Lee in the first innings. The ball came of the pitch like a pudding. For me, this match was a 'no-win' for England before a ball was bowled for one reason: Ashley Giles. England shot themselved in the collective foot by not picking Panesar. On the Adelaide pitch the only real chance of a result was going to be for the spinners to rip through the team batting last on a crumbling pitch. And sorry, but the King of Spain was NEVER going to do that. At least Panesar, as an attacking bowler and an unknown quantity, would have thrown doubt in the Australians' minds.
England, 1-0 down with a first inning lead, and with the likes of Pieterson and Flintoff should have gone for the win. Nothing, as history has shown again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and yet again, plays into Australian hands more than batting for a draw. Such a negative approach is like blood to circling sharks for the Aussies and Warne in particular.
Here's a scenario: Some positive batting would have rapidly put the game out of Australia's reach. Score at 5 or so an over for 45 overs and declare with a lead of 250-300 and a required run rate of 6 or so an over and you can bet the Aussies would have chased it. Lost a few quick wickets going for the runs, then been left to play out the draw. Or not chased it and tried to bat out the overs. Either way, a quick run of wickets and Monty Panesar would have started to look like Harbajan Singh circa 2001.
Australia won by exploiting England's inner demons. What the poms forget is that Australia has demons too...
Complain about this postAgreed.
What the hell with England. I mean, we have a better batting line up minus Ponting than Australia and our bowling is only Shane Warne and an in form Harmy behind. Drop Cook, Jones, Giles and Anderson and bring in Shah, Read, Panesar and Lewis and we can win the next test no probs. Fletcher should be sacked forthwith.
Complain about this postHaving read a few of the comments so far posted, it's quite clear that a lot of people agree with my way of thinking that Panesar and Read should have played the first two tests. Neither Jones nor Giles look likely to trouble the scorers too much, so any argument about needing them to strengthen the batting is ludicrous. First and foremost, England has to worry about how to dismiss Australia twice in a match - something they've so far struggled to do even once per match.
Let's make no bones about it, Australia are far and away the best team in the world, and to beat them you have to get your full share of breaks and take every chance that comes your way. In this test the chance for victory probably slipped when Ponting was dropped. At 4 for 78 I don't think Australia could have passed 400. Even in England last year I thought Australia were the better team, but England had slightly the better of the luck and also took most crucial chances presented. Had Mike Hussey been in the test side instead of either Martyn or Katich they probably would have won the series, and the same goes for MacGill at times. I recall being very relieved that Hussey wasn't in the test squad after the way he played in the one-dayers. He is one huge obstacle for England (and everyone else)! Thank goodness he's over 30! And if the Australian selectors finally lost their apparent fear of playing Gilchrist at no.6 and dropped Martyn for another bowler they'd be even more devastating.
Let's hope England at least win the toss in Perth and bat first again. Heaven knows how they'd fare if asked to bat second if Australia racked up another huge score. We'll live in hope for a miracle!
Complain about this postWhy are some people so keen to bring back Vaughan? Is it because trying to recreate the 2005 ashes team as closely as possible has worked so well so far?
Live in the now!
Complain about this postAs a Kiwi and therefore a neutral, I think England have come into this series with a negative mindset, which really surprises me. You guys had won the Ashes and should have considered yourselves the champions, and played and acted accordingly. Australia were the ones with everything to prove. You have great players. I think we (neutrals) were all expecting a lot of fire and verbals, but mostly it's come from the Aussies; the English have been totally passive - Flintoff in particular surprises me. He seems to be basically a nice chap who's full of self doubt. I thought he was as tough as teak.
Complain about this postI take my hat off to Hoggard and Collingwood - they have stood up and been counted.
English fans are really putting the boot into Harmison, but he's someone who thrives on good leadership, and it's not coming from the current set-up. He was bowling well in Australia's 2nd innings, but Giles was inexplicably preferred when England needed wickets. Sort of sums up England's whole mindset.
Message to British Airways - send reinforcements.
Its rarley seen, but a pleasure when it happens, regardless of who you support, when a team like Australia show the true spirit of a fight in a match that seems to have no chance of an outcome, then along comes Shane Warne.
Like him or hate him, he would be the first on any sellectors note pad for any team world wide.
To come back from such a demoralising 1st innings dig, to be able to conjur up such resolve and pluck victory at such long odds is surely the sign of a champion and the champion team around him.
Those who watched where treated to a magician casting spells, one of the best finishes to a test match I have ever seen.
Complain about this postI fully agree that negative mindset was the primary reason for this unthinkable defeat. I believe the team was defensive from the first morning of this test. Prefering Ashle Giles to Monty was a huge tactical mistake. When your back is on the wall you need to fight like a tiger to bounce back. Instead the team fought like a cat in the first four days and then like a mouse on the final day. A hapless exhibition indeed!!
Complain about this postDuncan Fletcher must be on the aussie payroll!
That is the only reason i can think of why smash' me miles (Giles) and jones are playing Test cricket let alone county! Flecther is a disgrace! All the England selectors should be sacked! their a JOKE! If every past test player said Panesar had to play and even the aussies players said they were much happier to see that knob Giles out there rather than the up and coming Monty. Such a joke! typical England. have a good thing and dont use it. and poor Chris Read one of the best keepers in the the world and cant get a game in front of a joke like jones because the coach doesn't like him.
Think Duncan Fletcher should be Knighted! ha ha
So sad......
Complain about this postGilesy eh ? He's a special one isn''t he. Poor old Monty is all I can say.
Complain about this postwarney warney warney... 5-0 send the urn over boys... and while your at it send over the webb ellis too (we'll hold onto it for the kiwis)...
Complain about this postI know a lot of people will disagree, and I don't really want to bag the guy too much here, but I could not help thinking that even Collingwood could have done a lot more in that second innings. Sure he was not Robinson Caruso in this respect and almost all will say that he was the only one to show any grit. Probably true. But to be 22 not out in 198 minutes meant that his eye was in (he did hit 200 in the 1st innings so this was a given). He could have been looking to push the scoring more and to farm the strike. He seemed to do neither. OK, there was carnage at the other end and it is all very easy from the armchair, but another half hours batting and the game would have been beyond Australias reach in terms of both time and runs. I'll bet he is thinking the same thing right now. Just a bit of armchair analysis from an Aussie who is still hoping England can make a fight of this series. For heavens sake I have already paid for my boxing day tickets and don't want it to be an anticlimax.
Complain about this postWell done Punter and Co. I never doubted you. C'mon Freddie and the rest of the Poms, surprise us.
From the outset of this tour it hasn't looked like we really believe that we can WIN the Ashes knowing that drawing the series is good enough.
I have never been in so much pain watching England lie down in Adelaide.
When we won the Ashes - oh how long ago that seems now - we had a real intensity. We had steel. We had grit. You knew that if one player was out then the next one would fight tooth and nail to progress the team. We had desperation. The Aussies aren't being friendly anymore because they have desperation. Desperation to win back the urn. Well I think it is time to get desperate and nasty - remember Harmison vs Ponting in the 1st test at Lord's? Maybe we need to flex some muscle and show we aren't another Pommie touring roadkill!
Complain about this postOn a lighter note, I've been trying to explain all this national humiliation to a Spanish colleague in my office. In the end she looked at me and said
"Cricket? Isn't that the thing on horses you play with sticks?"
And she meant it. Maybe, just maybe, in the grand scale of things, it doesn't matter as much as we think it does.....
Complain about this post(Brit living in USA)
9 of these players are the same ones who had a open bus celebration through London,including Giles! There seems to be a lack of depth of analysis instead we have blame 1 player & bring in 1 star,it's not a case of 1 or 2 players,Australia have a better system so there's no surprise they have better players in depth.Fletcher wasn't attacked last year & who would replace him ? David Graveney oh please.Make the most of last year when England had quite a lot of luck,the Aussies were under prepared (should have learned from that eh?) & it was a great series.It might be a while before the next !
Complain about this postA reminder and an observation.
Reminder - Collingwood scored the first double-century by an English batsman in Australia for over 70 years. Observation - Australians have a positive attitude towards their sport even when the chips are down. We need to get behind the team and urge them to play for honour and pride. It does not have to be a whitewash but it could be if the team think we have given up on them. GO ENGLAND.
Complain about this postSame old, same old.
England lost the Ashes when Flintoff was named captain - the usual misguided clamour by an English sporting body to appoint a media-hot 'personality' to captaincy (as FA/Beckham).
Fletcher/selectors proven to be timid relying on past form not present (as Giles over Panesar) as so, so often in the past.
Now watch Panesar being fed to the lions in a dispirited team or will it be more of the same (as in 'the lads have got something to prove')? We know what they have proved already - they're spineless, feckless and easily intimidated. As a Brit, I say congratulations to Australia for winning back the Ashes, but really it's like taking candy from a baby.
Complain about this postIn response to: 9:19pm Anthony
Complain about this postThe best cricket side the world has ever seen?? Hmm... ok, your opinion I guess. Although now they are a pale shadow of their former selves, let's not forget the West Indies team of some 15 - 20 odd years ago eh?
In 40 years of Cricket watching this was the most remarkable of test matches - a famous turnaround. I was at the tied test in Brisbane and it will always remain at the top of a list of amazing test matches but this one comes a close second.
England, I'm afraid, believed their own propaganda after only just winning the 2005 series. This series was always going to be a rout. The final day of this test match showed the quintessential difference between the teams - and that is run rate. England lost it by taking too long to score that 550+ runs. By the time they declared the first innings closed they were already unable to win the game. And their run rate in the second innings was an international joke.
You guys HAVE to get rid of Fletcher. I am reluctant to give you any more help than that but FLETCHER is first on the list. By the way we have to get rid of that wus Damian MARTIN
Complain about this postAs an Englishman living in Sydney, I am bewildered and ANGRY. It is not the defeat but the manner in which England capitulated, which is so distrurbing....
Complain about this postA flaming, embarrassing shambles.
After the luck of the toss and after all that hard work on the first three days, England then let Australia, once again, off the hook and poor bowling allowed Hussey, Gilchrist, Clark and Warne to get the Aussies past 400(for the eight consecutive time at Adelaide on first innings) and to erode any kind of first innings pressure that the toss and very positive batting had created.
Then, when Strauss and Bell should both have come out this morning to attack, score runs and put the Aussies under Day 5 - second innings pressure, Strauss, in particular, spent 11 overs farting about and kicking and defending as opposed to playing his natural, successful, agressive game.....Shambles.
As we all now Know, just 20 or 30 more England runs would,ve probably been enough to at least scrape an embarrassing draw from Test 2....but, lets look at the facts here.....
Australia's captain scored 142 and 49 here....
England's 38 and 2...
Australia's wicket keeper scored 68 on first innings..... England's scored twenty odd and 10 in two innings...
Australia's over the hill, leg spinner took a bashing in first innings and then 4 for 49 in the crucial second innings.....England's no- hoper took a bashing in the first innings and was outballed by part-time Pietersen in the second.....
Shambles.
Like many and like so many so many times before, I was up all night with the Radio 4 TMS commentary hoping for better and positive things from "England's cricketers", as the broadcast media describe them, only to, once again, suffer death and despair of a thousand cuts as the national team prove , very sadly, like the soccer lot, hopelessly inadequate and gutless when it really matters......Shambles.
Giles has to go, to be replaced by Panesar now, the Jones versus Read thing is still debatable but also, either Anderson or Harmison have to be replaced by Mahmood who has the guts and courage to both bat and ball.
Strauss, who, like Flintoff, has hardly scored a run all tour so far, had also better seriously shake himself, lest the selectors look to replace not Cook, but him, if and when Michael Vaughn becomes fit and available again.....Shambles.
Come on England....THIS IS THE ASHES...for crying out loud....Give us some hope and encouragement, positively.
Ever, ever hopeful,
Simple Steve.
Complain about this postFrom England's perspectives, the second Ashes test in Australia (2007) just completed has been really dismal, except for its first innings batting, by Collingwood and Pietersen. There have been failures right and left. What with Monty Panesar left out of the squad, or Flintoff's injured ankle, or Bell's hesitancy in the second innings to get going on Collingwood's reasonable call for a run, and the mass failure to boldly play such an important Test match, the overall situation turned out no better than just pathetic. The Australians on the other hand, rose to the occasion by overcoming the hurdles in the first innings, and then by cowing the English batsmen no ends in their second. After this there is a wholesale need for them to examine their socalled English philosophy of cricket and the art of translating that into practice, not excluding the selection of their squad-both batsmen and bowlers.
Complain about this postI am sad to give such a melancholy appraisal before the series has come to its final conclusion.
---Sauri P. Bhattacharya
Plano, Tx. 75074
England after raising my hopes on the first two days you have sent them crashing down to earth with a thump.
Absolutely gutted.
Start concentrating on damage limitation rather than the Ashes.
Complain about this postTotally unprofessional approach in coaching and playing. Top batsmen should respect the top bowlers even Warnie before showing off at the expense of the nations pride, eg. Collingwood in first innings in failing to reach 100 and Peterson in second innings failing to stick to the task. I cannot fathom the mentality of the team. I have lived here of 16 years and every time the POMs come it is tough. If you think is tough on the pitch it is even tougher in pubs for us English supporters!! I always predicted a 5 nil drubbing and looks like England won't fail in this task. Don't count on rain for draws - we don't get rain here!!
Complain about this postIt,s time for giles to go home. His time is over. England have to choose between, the bowler able to take 20 AUSTRALIAN wickets or the so-called allrounder who can't score runs when needed and can't stop the batsmen to score 5 runs a over on 5th day of test !!!
Complain about this postMonty is the bowler england desperately needed from years. It's the most stupid act of selection i have ever seen to choose giles over monty.
I am a POM, and live in work in Sydney. Never have I had a day like it at work, with constant comments from the Aussies about how we have lost the Ashes. England need to bounce back. We cant do that with only 2 effective bowlers. Aggers view on the psychologist is true, all the England team need to speak to him. I went to the first 2 days of the test and left on a high. Following the 1200km drive back across the outback I was happy, especially in the last few bit across the Blue Mountains, but then following the a meeting yesterday morning my boss made a joke we were 5 or 6 wickets down. I found the joke was true. I feel so low. Can I see the psychologist please...
Complain about this postIf im honest i think the entire team were let down by Giles. He doesnt look like he could bowl a team out if he was out there 5 months let alone 5 days. Is he not meant to be a spinner because i dont thnk ive ever seen him spin the ball to date!
If he starts the next test DF needs to go and as for the chances of reataining the ashes. Lets all keep dreaming.
On a slight positive note i think collingwoods performances in both tests have been outstanding and i would class him as just as good a bowler as Giles anyways. I feel sorry that he has o put up wiv the perfromance of some of his teammates. Monty has to play!
Complain about this postOnce again it seemed that Flintoff has taken on the majority of the pressure with Pietersen again attempting to over-do his best (hence the sweep and the over throws).
Not unlike that footy team, it seems we have a number of talented individuals who don't trust each other to succeed and in this regard I think Strauss has proved more able to keep the team together than Flintoff is likely to do this series. The cracks appear all too readily once Australia put the pressure on...
: waves goodbye to the Ashes
Complain about this postThis just goes to prove that England's winning of the Ashes at home was the freak fluke that it appeared to be, and that England has neither the talent or the stamina to stand up to Aussie Cricketers.
Complain about this postThis type of capitulation by England cricketers has gone on too long. It is clearly a psychological problem brought about by Australia's aggressive attitude and it is time we faced up to it. They are not so much better with bat and ball. I think now is the time for the public to know the type of comment fired at England players during on-pitch sledging to see whether it is purely sporting or not. Sportmanly conduct from england players is admirable, but such conduct has to be both ways or it becomes a weakness to be exploited by the unscrupulous. We need to know what psychological tactics Australia are using in order to help our boys deal with it. They need to forget the gentlemanly conduct, or decline to play australia. We cannot continue to allow a handful of snides disrupt our enjoyment of sport.
Complain about this postAs an English Aussie, surely we need to get this all in perspective: Australia didn't play well last year, and only just lost the Ashes. They were rattled by the hype and the wonderfully impartial British media [not], and it got to them. England exploited that very well.
This time round, the Australian media is whipping up a frenzy, the country is right behind the team, and they are playing on familiar pitches in a familiar climate. They also happen to be playing incredibly well. And revenge is a great motivator.
It is a sad English trait to put teams down all the time. Flintoff and the team did what they thought was right, but yes, they could have been more aggressive in chasing a win, and in retrospect perhaps they chose the wrong players.Some people seem to miss the point that for nearly 4 days, they had Australia on the back foot. After being hammered in Brisbane, that was not a bad effort.
Fact is, they were beaten by a side with more passion to win. Still, come to think of it ...... Fletcher is an idiot!
Complain about this postThat is the most incompetent peice of admininstration I have ever seen. I don't see how England can afford to have a full spare team training in Western Australia throughout the series, but cannot send a spare selector or two for the ashes. How is it that one person decides the fate of the national cricket side? Generallyyou pick a team with6 batsmen a keeper and 4 bowlers. If the bowlers are not capable of taking 20 wickets you may include a fifth. England have the best all rounder in the world, but forfeit that advantage by playnig 3 other medium fast bowlers. Giles playing is not the major issue, Anderson being slected is. If Panesar then performs you can look at dropping Giles and playing a batsmen. Did this peanut get an OBE?
Complain about this postI think after the carefull reading of your blogs , it must be compulsory reading for the Australian Team . It's so gratifiying to read your constant complains and self destructing comments.
Complain about this postGo Australia!! 5-0
Here's an aussie perspective for you all....
For any chance of winning the next test your team must follow these instructions:
1) Pick the following team for Perth:
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan (c)
Bell
Collingwood
Pietersen
Flintoff
Reid
Hoggard
Harmison
Panesar
So Vaughan hasn't played much cricket....take a risk. McGrath hadn't played a test all year and look what he's done to your team, you don't lose abilty.
2) Pietersen is equally as good a spinner as Giles (although that's not hard) so allow him some more overs.
3)There's no point having a fourth seamer if they are not really used/don't belong at test level. If you must play a fourth seamer then play Mahmood and leave out either Cook or Bell.
4) Most important of all....Grow some balls. Losing the game in Adelaide showed a huge lack of mental strength and as you would put it in your country, 'No bottle'.
If the English cricket team does all of the above they may be able to win the next game and keep the series alive. Keep Giles in the team and the chances of winning are minute to say the least, he is a first class cricketer at absolute best.
Complain about this postI do get frustrated with all those writing on this post who display incredible 20/20 hindsight.
I personally believe Monty should be in for Giles but this tour is being played under pressure cooker conditions and the fact is that Giles has been there before and is indeed previous ashes winner. No one can say whether Monty may be displaying some nerves behind the scenes an with his undoubted long international future in mind may be a good enough reason for the selection the way it is.
Duncan Fletcher saying it is down to Giles batting may be because he cant say it is because he is scared Monty might bottle it.
As for Jame Anderson on a feather bed like the Adelaide pitch you want to pick bowlers who might do a bit in the air rather than off the wicket and this would certainly refer more to Anderson than Mahmood.
Excusing the odd wayward one Steve Harmison did not bowl that bad. Lee and McGrath got nothing from the pitch either. They only looked dangerous when the English batsmen started playing like rabbits caught in the headlights.
Complain about this postTuff questions must be asked of all in the England squad dont just sacrifice Giles , Jones , or any other individual . Playing Australia in Australia is always the ultimate test of character for an "Englishman" Monty will be selected for Perth.
Complain about this postAwful last day... Giles dropped ponting in the 1st innings - and was garbage in attempting to bowl a good lenght ball in the Aus 2nd innings! He shouldn't be in the country...
Complain about this postNow I'm starting to panic!
I think we need Vaughan and Simon Jones back ASAP. It doesn't matter if they're not 100% fit - the next Ashes battle isn't until 2009.
We simply MUST retain this title!
Complain about this postFlintoff's use of Hoggard baffles me. I know Hoggy as got a reputation for being the workhorse of the bowling squad, who takes wickets through dogged determination and persistance.
But in this game he was England's strike bowler, but instead of being used in short, sharp stand-breaking bursts he was subjected to long energy sapping spells.
Freddy clearly hasn't got the experience to respond to situations as they arise. England desperately need the experience of Michael Vaughan
Complain about this postFirst off i'd like to give some credit to the following english players who did well put up some sort of english pride for themselves
Complain about this post- Paul collingwood
-Matt Hoggard
Sadly that is all, every1 else in my book sucked a lot and deserve to be fed to the sharks and burned after they've been brutally eaten and served to the rotten barnicle fishnets (watever that is).
It was quite clear though they would never have won with the approach that they're masterful coach DF brought into plan with Giles in the team.
But i guess thats England for you. Now all we have to do is wait for the oncoming 5-0 whitewash of this remaining series so those boneheads can finally realise the true power of the Australians..
As an Aussie I'm not going to add my bit to the criticisms above, because they're mostly right, especially about the lack of aggression in English tactics (including selection tactics).
But it waan't just poor shot selection that got you out for 129. It was poor shot selection created by brilliant bowling - and not just by Warne. There was barely a bad ball bowled, and quite a few unplayable ones. In all, one of the finest all-round bowling displays I've ever seen, on a pitch that gave some help but was far from a minefield (as the Aussies showed in their 2nd innings).
Your players should take heart that they lost a very high standard game, and not even the aussies can count on bowling that well all the time.
Complain about this postMyself and my work mate are poms who live over here in Australia. We both agree we lost this ashes before a ball was bowled.
Last year's success was down to taking a positive approach against the Aussies, standing toe to toe with them and never hiding or giving an inch. We were aggressive in everything we did and WE intimidated them.
We went to the Gabba with a plan to try and avoid defeat rather than going all out to win a test match and establish some momentum. The team selection was dull and conservative, a policy of damage limitation rather than all out attack. Our body language was all wrong and our attitude towards facing thre world's best team completely negative. This played straight into the Aussies hands. They had us running scared from day one and they knew it.
I have been looking forward to watching the boxing day test live at the MCG since I was a nipper back in Enlgand. It seems now it will be no more than a dead rubber.
Complain about this postI would love someone to pick 11out of the English team on tour that would draw one test of the current series unless it rains.
Complain about this posti think boycott got it right we will lose the ashes get knocked out of the world cup and get beaten by the west indies for the future stuart broad the return of simon jones hope tres will come back and vaughn back as skipper
Complain about this postEngland needs to look at how they are going to take 20 Aussie Wickets. Having negative bowlers like Giles only accentuates that England are looking at defense than attack, that is a crucial mistake against the Aussies.
First test they took 10 wickets in total and the second test another 14 (some of which were chasing the 5th day target). It beggars belief that attacking bowlers are Panesar is kept in the outer and proven failures like Giles are kept in the side.
Complain about this postMost will disagree with me, but I think England could have saved the match if Collingwood had batter a bit more aggresively. His style was too defensive and he made every one around him fear the Australian bowling, when in fact, majority of English batsmen got out to poor shot selection or poor umpiring decisions. I hope with experience, Collingwood can learn to take control of the game by attacking instead of going into his useless defensive groove.
Complain about this postAs someone who's just spent 5 days standing on the hill in Adelaide watching this disaster, my first and last thought is 'sack the coach'. Why are Jones and Giles in the side? Why do we defend when we should attack? I could take the relentless drivel that the Aussie public spew out if we went down fighting.
Complain about this postWe lost it in the First Test by not picking Panesar. Why on earth could the England selectors repeat the same idiocy for the Second?
Giles will NEVER get a bag of wickets against Australia. In the team to keep runs minimal (forget about wickets?), score runs (when will this momentous event occur?) and fielding skills (Test match and probably Ashes lost 3rd morning, similar comment Ist Test ).
With Harmison, Freddy, Hoggard - surely we have enough quickies. Play Monty, swap keepers, bring in a batsman and drop Anderson.
Let's be positive for heaven's sake!
John Craigie, Philippines
Complain about this postEngland can only blame themselves for their insipid performance. Ashely Giles and Geraint 'Cymbals' Jones who are in the team for their batting (allegedly) failed. Lets face it the 2005 Ashes could have easily been won by Australia if Kasper had of negotiated that ball which got him out. Englad are living a false reality...they have a coach who is more worried about losing than winning, and the selectorial decisions are appalling. Strauss and Cook have been found out as pretenders against decent bowling...its all over folks.
Complain about this postUnbelievable, I was looking forward to this Ashes campaign as it was promised to be a hard fought and close fight. What on earth was happeing out there on the final day. That would have to be the most inept, boring, and unforgivable performance I have seen in my 30 years of following test cricket. Dad's army has they have wrongly been laebeled made England look like Gradndad's army. WARNE and CO are just still too good, showing that the last Ashes series was a temporary abhoration. I think Australia will keep regain them and keep them for another 16 years (even if the current team remain)
Complain about this postFirstly,
I think Ashley Giles should be made captain and opening Batsman. Clearly someone is under a misunderstanding that he is a bowler.
I would also want to know who created this feeling that England might actually win the AShes. Australia have lost 4 tests in Australia in 10 years. Why would England be able to win?
I would also like to reserve Trafalgar square for the Australians to celebrate. That irrational ridiculous celebration that occurred last year should be made to occur this time from the oppostion. How could we celebrate one win out of 9 Ashes series so much? it should have been the end of a period of shame not a wild celebration.
Complain about this postEngland can only blame themselves for their insipid performance. Ashely Giles and Geraint 'Cymbals' Jones who are in the team for their batting (allegedly) failed. Lets face it the 2005 Ashes could have easily been won by Australia if Kasper had of negotiated that ball which got him out. Englad are living a false reality...they have a coach who is more worried about losing than winning, and the selectorial decisions are appalling. Strauss and Cook have been found out as pretenders against decent bowling...its all over folks.
Complain about this postThe call is out for Fletcher to be sent home in disgrace,
and Giles ought now to pack his bags with Panesar in his place;
and Flintoff too should lose his job, so say the website bombs鈥
they can't accept the better team beat the hopeless, awful poms.
Well Giles has dropped the Ashes now, and Flintoff lost his chance,
and on the poms the media's boots are stomping quite a dance;
it matters not what notes they play, from music-hall or proms,
the Australian team's far better than the dreadful, ill-starred poms.
Botham said that England's team had some, winning, winsome lads,
Complain about this postyet twice they have been soundly whipped by a bunch of ageing dads;
it's nought to two, with Perth to come, so hear those loud tom-toms
predicting woe and sharpened knives for the hapless, losing poms.
They can't accept the better team
(who never care how old they seem,
the ones who can afford to beam), beat the woeful, whinging poms.
Complain about this postYippee. Made my day - week - year!!! Natural order of things restored Oz on top. Sorry for Flintoff - nice guy, great athlete.
Go Aussies!
Did anyone seriously think England could retain the Ashes? Last year was a total fluke. It will be a lot longer than 16 years before you see them again once they've come home to where they belong.
Here's a tip: If all else fails go back to South Africa on a talent search or wherever else you get your only half decent players from.
Complain about this postPerhaps Fletcher and co should think about the thousands of fans that have travelled to the other side of the world to support the country and team that they love, and too, the many more thousands of ex-pats that live in Oz.
Complain about this postDo we really deserve a performance like that?
Pick yourselves up and do what you do best - play some decent honest aggressive cricket.
I'll take a drawn series.
Ahhh ... the pain of that Jonny Wilkinson drop goal just 26 seconds from the end of the 2003 Rugby World Cup is finally starting to fade.
Go you beautiful Aussies !!!
Complain about this postAs an English supporter living in Adelaide this defeat has been hard to take. The Aussies respect certain members of our team, namely Pieterson, Flintoff and more recently Collingwood. They fear Harmison to a certain extent. However, our batting line up can only be described as spineless. Only Paul Collingwood seemed to realise what was at stake and played the responsible sensible innings that would have made a draw inevitable.
Complain about this postBell seems at times like a startled rabbit and you can't help feel that the Aussies have the measure of him. Cook and Strauss have fallen cheaply to poor lapses in concentration. flintoff awesome with the ball, but batting with rushes of blood. The same can be said for Pieterson who is class, but his dismissal and overthrows highlight too much red bull in the system.
Everybody here can't understand why Monty Panesar is not playing especially when Giles has been so ineffective.
England managed to win back some self respect with first innings display and yet incredibly have now gone on to inject more fervour and confidence in an Australian side that could be put under pressure very easily.
Whoa! Pathetic english performance. i dont think even india would have managed something like this! We have competition at last!
Complain about this postWell said Geoffrey Boycott - poor preparation all round. Why are England's batsmen always so prone to a batting collapse, whether going for victory in Pakistan or batting for a Draw, it's ridiculous?! Matthew Maynard was an average player at Test level, so why is he England's Batting Coach? Oh yes, he's Duncan's mate.
This Tour was poorly scheduled and planned for. Fletcher tried to recreate the Ashes Club mentality amongst the players again with one player who hadn't played for 11 months - Ashley Giles, Flintoff coming off a 4 month injury, Anderson, who spent most of the English Summer with stress fractures in his back, they took an opening batsmen who was incapable of playing and just hoped he would be alright - I could go on, but as Boycott quite rightly said, it was an ill planned adventure from the start. What an absolute waste and a terrible shame. In my opinion this Aussie Team are beatable with better organization and tactics. The Windies of the 1980s would've thrashed them, inspite of Ponting saying they are the best team of all time - they certainy are not!
I followed the whole of the Aussie Cricket season last Winter, and the bullying and intimidation of opposition players, and the Umpires is the reason why I will never admire them as *sportsmen* - they are not, and never will be. I believe at least one third of Warne's wickets aren't genuine, how many times does he get decisions after excessive appealing? It's a disgrace. As is the vile nature of the Aussie Press, however we don't have a leg to stand on if we complain, as it just looks like sour grapes. But needless to say, this Aussie Team do not endear themselves to Cricket Lovers around the world, and I discovered during the past year why.
Let's hope for a complete change of the England Team line-up [I hope wages are being withheld incidentally] and a Coach change at the end of the Tour before the World Cup, as our one day record under Fletcher is abysmal. Aggers, could you and Geoffrey please discuss during the next Test which candidates are available for the next England Coach please? Thanks, Huriye in London.
Complain about this postGive the negativity a rest, please. The truth is England played extremely well up until the last day, and that was a great improvement from the first test match. We lost through great bowling and a greater hunger for a win rather than a draw. Negativity has always been our downfall and positivity has always been the aussie strength. We will continue to chop off heads while the aussies pat each other on the back and say well done boys, you tried your best.
Complain about this postCheer up 麻豆官网首页入口 readers..........
You know this chap Ben Dirs
Complain about this posta cricketing poet not so dear sirs?
England's poor show of batting,
(remember Warne's ball to Gatting?)
only honed his quill with the overs
Jones and Giles show once again that they're good to have in a team, but when under pressure are no more dependable with the bat than the two specialists Read and Panesar sitting out there on the bench. However, I noticed something which worries me. All this talk about Fletcher and his favourites.... it's just because he's the spokesman for the team. I see a lot of pictures with Flintoff and Jones, and they do look very chummy, with Flintoff never failing to praise his other half of the much-vaunted "7th wicket partnership". Flintoff also overbowled Giles when every single Englishman was calling for at least Pietersen who was a better option, yet out there Giles came in and wasted over after over. Panesar and Read were both playing fairly well for their country under Strauss's captaincy, and it was when Flintoff came back both were booted without either doing anything terribly wrong (and in Read's case, it was surprising given that Jones was still supposed to be hung out to dry to work on his batting, and as far as I know had done nothing for his county significant to merit his return).
My conclusion is that Fletcher is only partially responsible. He's being the fall guy to appease Flintoff's own favourites as well (although he might well feel the same way about Jones and Giles). If Vaughan can't make it back, Strauss has got to captain England for the rest of the Ashes. He will let Read and Panesar back in on merit, and also be more sensible about how many overs Flintoff should bowl. Talented as Flintoff may be, he's becoming a liability in the side if he's going to overwork himself, and if he really had a strong say in the selection of the team. England need his batting and bowling, but not necessarily his opinion at the moment. The whole team should not have to suffer because of the preference of the single-most talented player in it.
Complain about this postWhat is happening to Flintoff happened to Vaughan. Vaughan went "off the boil" when given the captain's responsibilities. It seems that the same is happening to Flintoff.
Complain about this postThe gut renching disappointment to me in this loss is that I honestly believe that England are good enough to win, I wish they believed it. We must keep faith, Australia do, Flintoff is the best thing to happen to English Cricket since Botham.
Bowlers didn't loose this match the batsman did, any calls for changes should bear this in mind, we did have a first innings lead after all.
Complain about this postThe next three tests will probably end in results if we don't go out positive, to win every sesson, we will get beat.
I was most surprised that we got up to win the unwin-able test match as I was watching when I got home from work last night.
I predicted that the series would be so tight it may be even a drawn series but somehow the demons of the past have been let out of the genie bottle.
One thing Australian sporting teams have is confidence and as Clive Woodward once said, "he's never known an Australian sporting team to have an inferiority complex"
I think England will bounce back in Perth and as an Australian (happy at the moment), a word of caution to all my boasting compatriates, there is still a lot of cricket left in this series.
Complain about this postI can鈥檛 believe how most English bloggers are blaming this loss on Giles. That is as ridiculous as it is unfair. So he dropped a catch. Big deal, catches can be dropped even by winning sides. Pietersen dropped about 6 or 7 last year and still England won the Ashes, so how does that work again? OK yes, it was Ponting and he made 142. But the game was not lost there, at that point, not by any stretch鈥ut if you let it get to you though, that is a different story.
The main thing here is attitude. The Australians let their attitude guide their performance. Ponting was looking like century maker before he had even scored. Has done every innings so far. Hussey will have to look up self-doubt in the OED, he really does not know what it means. The English on the other hand let Australia鈥檚 performance guide their (English) attitude, Warnie talking the talk and walking the walk, McGrath and Lee bending it around, catches being snaffled, banter (sledging anyone?) flying around. It was self- perpetuating in that 2nd innings, beautiful to watch if you are an Aussie, gutting if you are an Englishman.
So no, Giles is not England鈥檚 problem and Panesar is not necessarily the solution, although I would probably make that change anyway now. England need to rekindle their fighting spirit and call the bluff. They did it last year. They need to visualise past and future glories. They need to go for it. At the moment they are just kidding themselves to think otherwise.
Tom the Aussie Psychologist. (Special rates for visiting English Crickotourists
Complain about this postThe second test was lost for one major and two minor reasons. The minor reasons are the dropping of Ponting by Giles in the first innings when he was on 35, and the playing of Giles instead of Monty. The major reason is the captaincy of Andy Flintoff. He is one of the finest cricketers in the world, and he should be left to be that, without other heavy responsibilities. His ordering of the bowlers is sufficient proof of that.
Complain about this postHe is not a leader.
I feel bad for English fans. The English batsmen should have used a more aggresive approach like the Pakistani batsmen used against West Indies in the second Test. What was Paul Collingwood trying to acheive by exposing the tailenders to most of the bowling?
Complain about this postI have sat and read many of these posts.
You call the Aussies all kinds of names and turn on your own players (including your own captain).
That is the difference the Australians and the English, you just give up. Back your team instead of shooting them down, they are up against a formidable side.
Where is your fight? The fat lady has not yet sung?
That is why we are the best, because we believe it.
Best regards,
An arrogant Aussie.
Complain about this postits not the physical side of the game we are lacking, our skills and coordianation are there for everyone to see and they are fine. Its the mental edge that we lack, its not just cricket but all sports. Its an area we need to work harder on as a nation, its ingrained into the australians from a very young age, that never say die attitude, the steel determination to deliver when it matters. Every player in that Australian squad has it and players coming through will have it. England need to desperatley get hold of some of that fight or we will continue to be disapointed by all our teams.
Complain about this postWinge, winge, winge, whine, whine, whine - just face up to the fact that you can't play cricket as well as you can play football.......or is that the other way round.
Complain about this postEngland won last year because for the first time in my life time they ATTACKED US. A good pace setup (with a Duke), supported by Giles blocking it up at the other seemed to work for you. Seriously though, Giles can't take wickets and without Jones in the team or Harm(less) bowling quick at the stumps you blokes have NO CHANCE.
Complain about this postGood luck in Perth. Beating 'warm-beer drinkers' is part of our cultural upbringing. Good luck holding our Urn for 1 more Test.
The great man Steve Waugh once said to Hershelle Gibbs in '97 'You just dropped the World Cup'. For Giles it was even bigger: The Ashes. I was there, and that WAS the Turning Point. You can't drop an Australian captain (Chappell, Border, Taylor, Waugh, Ponting...) and expect to get away with it. Rarely do.
Viva Cricket!
dear oh dear what happened freddie and duncan? england should ot have lost in adelaide.
Time for changes -- BIG CHANGES--
Complain about this post1)Vaughn(captian)
2)Panesar
3)Read
4)key
5)any one know where Darren gough is ?
6)botham
7)Pieterson
8)collingwood
9)hoggard
10)bell
11)?????????
Although a great victory for Australia in the end,(I am an Aussie) I enjoyed - finally - a competative match where a few standouts from the Brits emerged, and I would like to say that these team members will regroup and make the next test just as exciting.
Complain about this postI refer to Flintoff, Pietersen and Collingwood and Hoggard.
There are alot of detractors at the moment, saying Vaughn is a better tactician and AF has made poor judgements. I would like to point out that until early on the last day, the game plan was sound - (overnight only 1/30 odd and playing "Warnie" quite well, look at the replay) - it is the mental attitude that undid what was a tactically sound game, a key tenent of the Aussie game plan.
Brilliant... the best part for me was that prat of a South African taking on the King and coming off second best. Strauss decision was poor, but no excuse can be found for the run out.
Complain about this postAs an expat living in NSW, I am having to take all the flak that my Australian mates are throwing my way - and rightly so.
How on earth can you score 550 plus and lose?!
You HAVE to front up to the Aussies in any and all sports - they don't like it up 'em - as Corporal Jones used to say!
What is being shown by the current team is that the win in 2005 was probably as lucky as a lot of us suspect. Two matches without McGrath - two wins - and 1 of the other tests could so easily have gone Australia's way at the death.
I doubt that this series can now be turned around - the match-winning personnel are not there. Sure, England will probably have the odd good day in the 3 remaining Tests but the psychological advantage has gone - if it ever was there.
Now, England, go and prove me wrong.
Complain about this postI blame Collingwood for not protecting the tailend batsman in the dying moments of the England innings. As much time as he had spent in the middle during the test match, he should have been smart to protect Hoggard, Harmison and Anderson. Foolishly he let them face the entire over. Lastly, he made no attempt to keep the score board ticking. If England lost towards the end, Collingwood has to take the blame for his selfish batting display. It is a team sport not individual heroics!
Complain about this postThe England team have not realised that they are up against a team of hard bitten old pros who play to win and who give nothing away in the process.
By contrast, the England squad is made up of dilittante performers who are there for a bit of fun and few post game beers. No guts, no grit and no application. Where are the modern day Boycotts, Barringtons and John Edriches when you need them?
It just should not be possible to lose a test match when you have made well over 500 runs in the first innings.
Expect a five nil series outcome.
David Amies
Complain about this postHi Everyone,
I'm a cricket loving chick from Perth and I can't wait til the 3rd Test starts here...
Even though I'm a chick, I can recognise that what sets Australia apart from other teams around the world is their determination and belief in themselves AND each other. They never give up. While England and fans were happy to settle for a draw on the 5th morning (as it looked obvious to everyone) The Aussies were looking to how they could win it. Whereas England were playing to draw, Aussies were playing to win.. even if it looked like a draw!
Even if Giles had held on to the catch, who's to say that Hussey or Gilchrist wouldn't have got a double century? Someone will always stand up for the Aussies and they all believe in their team. England played well last year but have done nothing since to prove they CAN win again this year. I want to see a good Test match in Perth - for the sake of cricket and entertainment anyway! :-)
See all you English fans at the WACA and the G!
Ciao!
Complain about this postI have lived in Australia for 2 years and if there is a positive to be gained for all other English fans back home it is that you are not here to face the barrage of abuse right now - there is no escape as there is no credible explanation for the debacle yesterday. My main gripe is with Giles which expectedly has been done to death already - but what right has this average player got to walk back into a test side after 12 months with no match practice? Nothing against the guy personally, but it's time to say goodbye and move on. I hear the wicket in Perth is similar to Adelaide, so lets hope for a draw there, a win in Melbourne (with a huge English crowd) and fingers crossed for another miracle in Sydney.
Complain about this postTheir is no doubt that English batsman were scared of Shane Warne. After loosing 2-3 wickets , they should be told to become aggressive and play offensive cricket. They needed a hitter like Shahid Afridi at this time.
Complain about this postLets keep a sense of proportion, losing by 6 wickets within 3 overs of holding out for a draw is not by any means Englands worst defeat.
This tendency to bottle it at the crunch was very much in evidence in 2005.
Remember Edgbaston, that wonderful win? It was by 2 runs and having dominated for much of the match Englands 2nd innings batting and inability to bowl out the tail nearly blew it. The Aussies were within 2 runs of the 2-0 series lead then, and that would almost certainly have been ashes gone.
Then there was Old Trafford where the Aussies hung on after England dominated.
Trent Bridge - England were in charge all the way through, and yet really struggled to get to the finish line.
Only at the Oval were England strong when the pressure was at its greatest.
And lets compare the teams: Vaughan, Trescothick and Simon Jones not there. Giles and Harmison not the force they were.
Freddie's batting distracted by the captaincy and his bowling affected by that ankle.
And even Strauss is out of form.
The other really dissapointing thing is that Warne & McGrath remain great thorns in the England side as they have been for more than 10 years now, a pity they can't be a bit more graceful in victory, but perhaps thats part of why they keep winning. Surely they can't go on much longer! Ponting I fear is good for a few years yet.
Losing by 6 wickets is probably about par.
Complain about this postHow fickle you sparts fans are, can we please keep some perspective here? I agree with the numerous comments that Giles' selection was (and could continue to be) a screaming error, and that everyone but, seemingly, Fletcher could see that. But that doesn't make him culpable for such a pathetic showing from England. Jones failed with the bat but to be fair has been difficult to fault behind the stumps. Let's not forget that Fletch is the same coach that was applauded as a national hero 18months ago. Unfortunately things have moved on but the England set-up hasn't and is holding onto the spirit of that time when much has changed.
Yes the Aussies played fantastically, but I agree with Aggers that the defining moment came from Enland - Bell's run-out. It was a comfortable single with Colly heading danger-end, so why was Bell in such a state of split-thinking? They merely needed to do a dull job of closing out the Aussie bowlers and the game on a benign pitch, yet they didn't seem to know how to go about it. Time was important, but runs no less so with the possibility of the Aussies batting always being there. In contrast the Aussies went out and did their job with hardly a doubt or hiccup. England are a fine side, and a winning side, but when they find they can't win a game they have a worrying habit of not being able to avoid losing it. I find this even more of a coaching concern than the dubious selection of Giles - a defensive and regressive insistence on sacrificing bowling for batting. The batsmen did just fine last time round, but it was the bowling attack that won it for England. What's needed is to throw everything we have at the Aussies, instead thay are being allowed to dominate terms in their old (very old by now) way. England's loss (Australia's gain) of the world's best bowling coach has also been very apparent.
Complain about this post"England can point to Andrew Strauss's dismissal and suggest that the umpiring error that dispatched him started the slide. There is some truth in that . . . . . "
There is no truth in that!
If you can even consider that one poor decision created the ensuing collapse then you will believe anything.
The truth is, that in the last series the Australian team believed their invincibility and more notably totally believed the words they uttered (it was a time of great embarrassment to any honest Aussie) to all and sundry and had the series won before the first ball was bowled.
England took them for the (loudmouthed) suckers they were.
However, this time the Australians are not letting belief in their own rhetoric or anything else for that matter get in the way of their cricket and a result.
Yes, England are not as focussed as previously and have much less belief in their capacity, but it would not matter how good England was, the Australians were not going to let England win any game easily, and that perhaps is the real difference.
Complain about this postI think the non selection of Monty was wrong. But everyone is saying this....how about Michael Vaughn coming back as a non playing captain until he can play....Andrew Flintoff did not show enough spirit and fortitude and challenge as a Captain on day 5. His batting was poor and his bowling changes was something else...also why did James Anderson play? He was not convincing enough as a bowler in the second test...
My favourite suggestion - Bring Michael Vaughn back to the dressing room! Let him be a non playing captain till he can resume the captaincy out on the field. And have Andrew Strauss or Flintoff lead on the field...
Complain about this postI was at the game, expected a draw, and couldn't beleive the way england batted in the first session. 30 odd runs in a session is rediculous. Most amazing day of cricket i have seen, and as an Australian I was well chuffed.
England were a disgrace. More importantly when Harmison came on for his second spell. Flintoff was standing at Short Cover, and didn't even turn to look at the bowler when he was walking back to his mark. Absolutely no support. Harmison appeared to have lost the support of his captain.
Complain about this postWake up England. You only won the Ashes last year due to " one single ball " - and it was not a delivered one but a seemingly harmless object that happened to lie in the path of a certain Glenn McGrath. He stepped on it and that was where England won the Ashes. It was a fluke.
Complain about this postNo, Australia is not overly dependent on McGrath but last year they were a little bit off colour but McGrath wasn't. Remember how he tornmented the English batting in the First Test. Now reality is coming to play.
It seem to me the Australian Tourist Board were aiming their message at our cricketers - "Where the bloody hell are you"?
Complain about this postGet rid off Giles, he is simply wasting his time!
Complain about this postGreetings again from Aust.If you go to the daily telegraph website in Australia it sounds to me Duncan Fletcher want to keep the same side for the third test.
Complain about this postThe way cooly played that he wanted to stay in crease to increase his average, so that he tried to rotate the strike as soon as possible for tailenders. If he donot know that last year Australia had done that the last wicket partnership is also crucial for the innings against S. Africa. If they score more 50 runs for that over there would be the different story. So, I blame all the batsman for this situation.
Complain about this postFlintoff is a fine player, who can take a game by the scruff of the neck when requested by his captain, but as a motivator, and moreso as a tactician, he is naive in the extreme. By the end of yesterday's test he ws reduced to the role of headles chicken looking around bemusedly, and listening to all and sundry, but crucially unable to lead the team to any coherent strategy.
Given the doubts about Vaughan, long term, it is hard to see where the next captain is going to come from.
Complain about this postIs there a common thread here will DF's inability or unwillingness to look beyond those players who performed last year and Clive Woodward's blind refusal on the 05 Lions tour to NZ to pick on form? Clive preferred the 'old hands' who'd won him the World Cup in 03 and the consequences were- well, we know that now. At least THAT series had to end at 3-0!! And also in common with this cricket mob, he refused to admit that things were terribly wronf when it was blatantly obvious to everyone else.
And why is it that English sport throws everything into one great series/cup and then slips inexorably off the other end. Will the Barmy Army STILL be singing about winning at the Oval in 2013? On the evidence of yesterday- yes!
Complain about this postWow, that was a fascinating end to a test match!! Especially being an Australian.
England would do well to remember the words of a former great and inspirational man - Sir Winston Churchill - "We shall never surrender!!!"
Well I am sorry, but that is what many English sporting teams have been doing too frequently ever since some Football final in 1966 and it is exactly what England did on the final day of the test. Every body (even in Oz) had written the test off as a draw after 3 days of "boring" cricket, except for the Australian cricket team.
Playing for a draw, whether in football, or cricket is surrendering and giving your opposition the psychological advantage.
There are the complainers out there saying that Giles should have held the catch on Ponting. That some umpiring decisions went against them, but these things happen in a game of cricket. They happened to Australia last year and they will happen to teams in the future. It is part of the game.
There are some simple facts however:
1) Eng should not have declared so early, they had a ironing board batting wicket so should have applied more pressure on Australia by being over 600 runs. This would have given Eng the chance to bowl Australia out twice on a crumbling pitch, with Australia batting for a draw. (This is what Australia would have done)
2)If you play defensively and do not score runs then you have a higher risk of losing. If all of the English batsmen had only scored another 5 runs each, then Australia probably would not have managed to score the winning runs. They would have had a go at it, because that is the team spirit, but quite possibly England could then have bowled them out as the pressure mounted. (This is what Australia would have done)
3)If you try and blame a couple of people for the loss of the team, then you are not playing as a team. Pretty much the entire team failed in the 2nd innings, because they did not score runs to apply pressure on Australia for when they came into bat. Remember the bowlers have to have a safety net from the batters to work with.
4)Tactics count for a heck of a lot, this is field placements to pressure the batsmen, bowlers bowling line & length, or to the field, it also means changing players for the pitches that will suit. Australia does it regularly. Hmm I wonder if Stuie McGill will bowl for the Sydney test.
5)Warnie and McGrath are legendary bowlers, in fact 2 of the best bowlers to have ever played the game. They still are and look at young Clark who is being slated to replace McGrath. The English batsmen know how dangerous the 2 of them are and have tried to target their bowling, but the young Clark has essentially slipped through unnoticed. Did none of the English coaching staff & players watch his series against South Africa when Glen McGrath was injured?
I shall leave with a snippet from an article that was written on the news.com.au sport section because it was bloody funny and well written......
"LIKE the tormented girl in a horror film, England thought nailing down the windows and pushing furniture against the door would preserve its chastity and life.
The heroine had taken some losses and endured many an indignity early in the piece, but, through sheer will-power and bloody-mindedness, had managed to survive the beast and find sanctuary.
She relaxed, slumped to the floor of the old weather board house and tried to gain her breath. One down wasn't that bad, she thought.
All I need to do is draw. There's hope. A heartbeat later the violins shrieked and an axe came crashing through the flimsy door.
And there was Shane Warne, a wild look in the eye and a wicked gloating grin on his face.
"Honey - I'm home!"
Complain about this postI think that about sums it up.
The urgent need to have a batsman at number 8 (which seems to be the criteria for picking Giles) can be resolved by picking an extra batsman. Bring Ed Joyce (or Vaughie if desperate enough (which we are)), play Flintoff at 7, Read/Jones at 8. Panesar can play and has shown he can bowl long spelss tightly AND take wickets. Pieterson and Collingwood and do a few overs to help out as the 5th bowler. Freddie can concentrate on his main strength (bowling) and not have the pressure of batting 6 with a long tail.
Anything has to be better than the pathetic excuse of an effort yesterday.
Complain about this postSo Thatcher didn't break all the unions after all. The English cricket team's batting line up has been united in their philosophy of "one out, all out" for as long as I can remember and it's good to see that this ethos has been carried on into Fletcher's brave new world of central contracts and taking Test cricket seriously. No scabs amongst our boys!
Complain about this postI think the expectation of the England team may have been out of proportion to the win in 2005. When all is said and done, England won the Ashes by 2 runs, a substitute fielder and a couple of rain affected draws. The past two matches could be described as an extension of the 2005 series, matches 6 and 7. England always threatening to perform and Australia always there to keep the English expectations in check. I'm sorry to say that England really hasn't shown they are any better than the 2 run winners they were in 2005.
Their performance since has been akin to Johnny Wilkinson's defeat of Australia in the Rugby World Cup. Neither team has done much of merit since. Australia on the other hand has continued to dominate and press for wins in every test match it plays and they score quickly. While they continue to do that will remain at the top of the heap.
Complain about this postSomewhere in this England squad is the team that did the Aussies last year.
The mob that lost to Australia last evening are certainly not it.
Lets see Panesar, Read and Mahmood because Jones, Giles and Anderson bring nothing to the fray.
Complain about this postI find it amusing how fickle the Poms are. Before the 1st test you were going to wipe out the "Dads Army". Didn't happen. After day 2 of the 2nd test you were going to level the series 1-1. Didnt happen. And now you are all bagging the crap out of your team blaming all and sundry. Don't delude yourselves into thinking Vaugh, Mahmood, Read or Panesar would have (or are going to ) make any difference! Just enjoy the 2005 Ashes series and appreciate how you won it by 2 runs.
Complain about this postThis final day disaster just happened to coincide with a day off work I had taken! (I live in Sydney). What pleasure to watch our inept batting performance!
As I had said after the Brisbane test, the only players to give their all were Hoggard and Flintoff....I now add Collingwood to this meagre group.
It is time for radical change by Fletcher and Flintoff as they continue to disappoint the thousands of England supporters who have spent a truckload to come down under and cheer the lads on.
Test playing careers should now end for Giles and Jones......this must be obvious to even the most blinkered of Warwickshire and Welsh supporters. Giles is fodder for the quick footed Aussies and Jones has been an embarrassment behind and in front of the stumps for far too long.
Monty and Read might not lead us to regaining the Ashes but at least we'll be more competitive and have the best spinner and the best keeper in the country playing their part.
Mahmood should take Anderson's place also. Jimmy has potential and I still see him improving to the extent where he is a regular in a year or two but he needs to work on his control and develop a stock ball.
What I might even suggest to Fletcher is to consider giving guernseys to all of the ex-Test players currently in Australia who are commentating, reporting, holidaying or organising tours.....at least they'd show a bit more passion.
So how's this for a team:
M.Atherton
G.Boycott
D.Gower
R.Smith
A.Lamb
M.Gatting
I.Botham
A.Fraser
B.Willis
P.Tufnell
P.Allott
Not sure who would keep...maybe the Judge?
12th Man - Aggers!
Complain about this post...and will people stop calling for Harmison to be dropped for goodnedss sake. He was the best in the world at one time and can be again. We can only retain the ashes if he improves and rekindles his hunger & aggression, but he has to play. Anderson-Mahmood is a better question. Giles-Panesar is surely already decided.
Complain about this postI think England needs to learn what we in Australia learnt from the great West Indies sides. That is - if you aren't trying to win you will lose. England lost because of their defensive, negative batting on the fifth morning. Even before the collapse started there were no runs being scored. Australia rightly saw this as a sign of weakness and were all over them like a mob of seagulls after a chip.
Remember we won with only 19 balls remaining. A more positive attitude would have seen Australia set 30-50 more to get and then the shoe could have been on the other foot.
Complain about this postThere is one positive note to extract from this shameful performance - the demise of the team was self inflicted.
Complain about this postIf it were down to the Aussies being just too good, too superior, then we would truly have cause for despair. We would be facing a team that could not be beaten.
However, we have seen that they are 'normal', they have strengths and weaknesses, but manage their weaknesses well.
We destroyed ourselves - we were not destroyed by a vastly superior team. Therefore, the solution lies within ourselves.
Hide the self destruct botton for a while and we can win, (at least one match, perhaps the series is beyond us now).
One of the best wins by any team, ever!!
Makes a joke of the celebrations your mob had when you won back the ashes......
How good it is to see your "best team in the world" beaten by "Dad's Army" and it looks like it's going to be a 5-0 whitewash.
I wonder will Her Maj. ask for those gongs back, i think she should!
Aussie
Complain about this postAussie
Aussie
please note
Complain about this postdo not beat us again as we respond very well the ashes are coming back were they belong !!
Is it just me or did anyone else notice Collingwood's lame batting in the second innings. Firstly, he took the whole team in a negative frame of mind by not scoring runs at all. Later, when the wickets started to tumble, he was more than excited to take singles so that Hoggard and company took most of the strike. With Shane Warne spinning the ball so much, it was inevitable that Hoggard, Harmison, and Anderson would be out sooner rather than later. Why take the singles then when the urgency wasn't there the whole innings?
Complain about this postNo Jerusalem,no inane boring soccer chants from the touring redskined bogans of the Barmy Army.
Complain about this postA placid tarmac of a wicket that saw the plucky yet limited Collingwood score a double century, a number 3 who could not pick Warne through the air, a decision to play the pie throwing Giles(a man incapable of turning a ball on a corugated iron roof) played in front of Monty due to his better batting and fielding Hmmm!.
A south African with a wonderful eye, and a woeful technique and plays with scant regard for his team.
Perhaps, the mythical Jerusalem which believed that Jesus spent his formative years trundling over the bleak old dart in his open toed sandals, is representative of the ills of a sad nation ready to claim anyone, foreign or not, to plaster over the cracks of ineptitude.
Duncan Fletcher points to the fact that it took Warne 80+ overs to get 5 wickets in the match. How long would it have taken Ashley Giles to take 5 wickets? How can he expect to turn a ball if he does not follow through? Let's see a proper spinner - give Monty a go.
Complain about this postThis is england's best eleven?
Never have so few disapointed so many!
Complain about this postNo team, which has won Ashes, is as weak as this team...its an utter ridicule to go to an ashes test with 3 batsman(Bell,KP and Collingwood) and a no batter wk and no bowlers who can take wickets...whats Giles doing in the side...well DF has to take the blunt of the defeat...ENGLAND, u can forget ashes....for ever...may i say...!!!
Complain about this postDave in Abu Dhabi
Complain about this postSurely the tone for the final innings was set when Flintoff and Pietersen came together after Collingwood's dismissal in the first. Here we had the 'dream ticket' partnership and an opportunity to push towards well over 600 and at a decent rate. We still had 6 wickets to play with! Instead we got a slow down in the run rate and a clear sign that this team lacks belief and direction. That was 'the hour' that cost us this game.
The only two men who can hold their heads high are Paul Collingwood and Mathew Hoggard. I hope Mr Boycott's criticism of him is retracted. There are plenty of others at whom it should be directed.
Complain about this postSo Duncan Fletcher does not wish to take the blame ' there are other selectors involved'!!!!!!!
Complain about this postPlayers come and go Coaches are more perminent, unfortunately.
Fletcher couldn't organise a drink in a brewery!!
Yes Pannaseer could be the panacea, and Sajiid might have helped but what is done is done.
Complain about this postIf England could come back after Brisbane and score over 500 runs they can come back again. ALL IS NOT LOST.
I would not give up on the pomms yet.
So Duncan Fletcher does not wish to take the blame ' there are other selectors involved'!!!!!!!
Complain about this postPlayers come and go Coaches are more perminent, unfortunately.
Fletcher couldn't organise a drink in a brewery!!
In response to Post 964 -
# At 07:20 PM on 05 Dec 2006, Al wrote:
When will the powers that be, in English cricket, realise that the accomplished batsman should never be made captain. How many times must we go through this nonsense until they see sense. Recent history has proven it many times, the pressure ruins their expertise.
Are you completely stupid?
The best batsman in the world Ricky Ponting is a CAPTAIN!!!!!!!!!!
Good idea genius never make a good batsmen captain..... on your logic we would never get Ponting from the crease!!!!
Complain about this postEng should pick Monty for the next TEST.
Complain about this postFrom an Australian perspective I can't fathom the depth of depair that has rained down on the England team from its own press and commentators. Yes, it is true, that Australia played well and was a deserved winner at Adelaide, however, there ARE positives that England can take from Adelaide to build upon - Tangible improvements over their performance in Brisbane that saw Australia in trouble several times.
I certainly hope that in the interests of the game that a positive kharma prevails in the English team or the reality for the remainder of this season is going to be rather bleak viewing.
Let's hope that Perth commences the turnaround or else the next possible memorable Ashes test we are going to see will be back in England in 2008!
Complain about this postEngland Fans- bookmark March 24th carefully in your diaries for next year now. Why? That's the day your ramble will face Kenya (semi-finalists last time remember) in the World Cup in St Lucia. You think there's a chance it might be the Kenyan's day??
Oh that would be SO sweet. But don't worry, I reckon you'll beat Canada and so not finish bottom of the pool. Should mean lots of cheap tickets and hotels throughout the West Indies too as disgruntled poms head home early.......
How sad.....
Complain about this postI know what the Poms can to commiserate this devasting loss.
How about you burn a bail, stick what is left in a little urn, send it off to the colony and write an obituary in the local paper?
What? you mean they already did this? When? I didn't hear about it?
Complain about this posti really think the negative approach from the england team had cost them the match.
WIth 115+ over remaining, England chosed to defend and used up the time. In that 20 over late in 4th day, they only scored 60+ run when the wicket is still very flat, that tell the story.
If aussie in this situation, they will use 65over to scored 330+ run [5 run per over, from the way they bat in the second inning, they are very capable to doing this.], and ask england in to bat for the remaining 50 over at 6run/over [still possible run chase from aussie point of view].
Complain about this postThe attitude of the team is a reflection of the leadership of the coach and the captain. They seem to lack application, believing that they can simply turn up and do their own thing and it will all turn out alright in the end. Let's hope this is a lesson that they have all learned for the last time. I would exclude Strauss, Collingwood and Hoggard from the above generalisation. The rest have done English cricket a great disservice and should hang their heads in shame.
Complain about this postAs an Australian and cricket lover I consider many of the comments below excessively defeatist. Australia always treats the ashes series as a contest that either team can win. England has a good side.
Complain about this postCricket is played between the ears, and confidence is everything. I believe the reason that ultimately caused Englands defeat was their reluctance to push hard on the 1st and 2nd day. A confident team,like Australia, will score quickly in order to bowl the other side out quickly and not allow their opponents to stabilize and regain the initiative. England exhibited self belief in the last series, why not now? Too early it seemed that England considered a draw as a acceptable outcome. In Australia a draw is synonymous with defeat. A cricket match is played by 22 people who all have the same number of arms and legs. Its confidence daring that wins the ashes. Support your team.
many people predict that this will be 5-0 whitwash but i do not agree with this because the aussie is very generous. They used to throw away the last ashes test match when the ashes was already decided (like last ashes series in aussie] . Therefore my prediction is 4-1 to the aussie.
Complain about this postPeter,
Were you born a complete moronic idiot or do you have to work at it?
For a start, KP a woeful technique. I suggest you actually take a closer look my ignorant friend. His technique, in defence is one of the truest you will find, straight bat, high elbow and watches the ball onto the bat (for the most part).
Collingwood, yup, a hugely useless player. Scores a double hundred on a pitch, the Worlds current number 1 batsmen couldn't manage, plus one of the best players in England's team and Hussey of Australia, yep, absolutely dire isn't he.
If all you are going to contribute is stupid comments like that, you and your like are best off not contributing at all.
Complain about this postI think England fans have been a bit harsh on the lads... you have to respect a team that can screw up a 1st inings score of 500+
that takes some skill that the mighty Aussies could never acheive....
Complain about this postHow sad to see Ashley Giles pilloried and blamed by much of the press for England's demise in the 2nd Test. Hands up any cricketer who has never dropped a catch in his career. This sort of scapegoat-seeking attitude by the media is sure to depress the confidence of individual team members even more.
Complain about this postOnce again, Jonathan Agnew sums it up perfectly. This was a spineless, psyche-destroying non-performance by England's batsmen reminiscent of the negativity of Trevor Bailey in the Brisbane test of 1958 when he batted for 7 and a half hours, faced 426 balls and managed to score off 39 of them! England lost that test too - and the Ashes with it. More broadly, England's understandable optimism that it could come here and retain the urn was misplaced before they ever got onto the 'plane. You cannot lose a class batsman like Vaughan and a superb bowler like Simon Jones without leaving a couple of sizeable holes in the side. Then there is the matter of toughness; why does Harmison have to be mollycoddled and gee'd up to bowl? If he gets homesick for his luke-warm ale and Newcastle United to the point that he cannot perform, do not pick him. Anderson is one also who sags when the going gets tough while Giles, good cricketer that he undoubtedly is, was always going to find it difficult here and especially after his long lay-off. You need the ruthlessness of a Jardine, a Hutton or a Ray Illingworth in leadership here not the counter-productive negativity of Duncan Fletcher allied to the inappropriate and sloppy Boy's Own Annual approach of Flintoff. England could well have won this test and should easily have drawn it. The latter would have meant being only one down and going into Perth with momentum. Now it is a case of ashes in the mouth. If Fletcher and Flintoff stay in a state of denial, Glenn McGrath's tongue-in-cheek prediction of 5-0 to Australia might well become the nightmare England had to have before it wakes up.
Complain about this postI actually think it's too late to bring Monty in now. Psychologically, for Monty, he will not be in the best place.
First, he will feel England are bringing him in in desperation. This is something we used to do in the very very BAD old days. Those were the days when we'd go through 30 players during a series.
One thing we had started to do since Fletcher took over was bring players in from a position of strength - in an aggressive "we want to win" attitude and here's are best attacking players for the series.
Fletcher's "we want to bat till 8" has been a massive backfire. Hugely negative. Sending out a message of fear to the team and the opposition. If you need to bat till 8, pick a batsman. And what does that say to your top order? "We don't trust you to get the runs".
Secondly, Panesar will feel the England management are not 100% behind him, in contrast to the way they are loyal to the point of absurdity to players like Jones, Anderson and Harmison.
Complain about this postHas Giles ever spun a ball?
Complain about this postAny team that "needs" a batting contribution from a number 8 has already expressed a vote of no-confidence in its top seven!
Complain about this postGiles scored twenty-odd in the first innings. True. But put it into context - the Aussie bowlers had already been subdued by the massive total that England's middle order had accrued. Giles took advantage of that situation. In the second innings where was his superior batting?
I still believe that England CAN win a game or possible even two in this series. It relies on form, guts and self-belief, three factors that are sadly lacking at the moment in any consistent way. Show the Aussies a glimpse of fear and they will rip our throats out. Their ruthlessness may be seen as arrogance in some viewers' eyes, but we could sure do with some of it!
What has happened to Harmy? He looks a beaten man. His body language is cowed and negative. Without Big Steve firing on all cylinders it matters not whether we pick Mahmood, Panesar, Anderson, etc. Freddie is clearly carrying an injury as well as too much responsibility and weight of expectation. If he wasn't captain, I wonder if a game off would do him good...? What a mess. Mark my words though, when this England team gets it together, someone will get a real hiding! Let's hope it happens soon.
We know that England's unwritten policy would guarantee the uninformed and unimpressive even at his best a pick ahead of the in form positive and penetrative bowler Panesar it is a good thing England lost, this decision on its own was a decisive factor in both tests. Now they are in a no win (almost) situation they will call on Monty.
Complain about this postWe should have batted until they got us out in the first innings - the priority was not to lose this test! make the Aussies bowl for best part of 3 days, get some form etc If we could score 500+ on that track then Freddie/Dunc should have realised the Aussies could as well.
Complain about this postNaive to the extreme and unprofessional.
I think the mental damage was done in the first 3 days when they played so well. They appeared quite cocky and went a bit silly celebrating wickets and run milestones. Once Australia got to within 100 runs they should have known it was game on but they simply believed they had done enough and the draw would duly follow. They really only needed to bat another 6 or 7 overs and the match was safe. You cant drop your guard agaunst these Aussies.
Complain about this postCant wait for the next test.
The biggest surprise for me was that England didn't carry on to make 650 in the first innings. That would have clearly told the Aussies that "anything you can do (i.e. Brisbane 1st innings), we can do better". Not only that, but we'd have avoided the ignominy of defeat, and maybe even won the match.
Complain about this postI cannot describe the torture i have been through from friends that have been absent since the first test last year (I am a perth resident). I was horrified at Panesar's non-selection. What arev we trying to do draw matches? We may win the Perth test (i have money on it. These Australians will be too cocky in Perth and it is a pitch suited more to our seamers than theirs. I am sick and tired watching our batsmen fall into the Warne trap of negativity. We have to take them on and play with a few more risks or we will lose again. The future of English cricket for the next few years hinges on this next....test come on boys!
Complain about this postIs my copy of the ashes video (The greatest series) biodegradable. If so it is destined for the bin. No excuses England. You were disgraceful.
Complain about this postDid fletcher know that in order to win a test match, you need to take 20 wickets instead of worrying on that 20 more runs [picking giles ahead of monty / jones ahead of read].
There is no way england can take 20 wickets by bowling this 4 bowlers. Pick some one who can actually take wicket instead of someone know how to defend run scores, this is not one day cricket, this is test cricket..... silly!!!!....
Complain about this postSo much speculation about the changes England ought to make yet we all know what Fletcher and Co will do - NOTHING.
Reminds of Sven in the World Cup this summer when it was clear his choice team was not performing.
Complain about this postThere was a foreboding sense of unreality in the run up to this ashes tour. Freddy is an honest bloke and so his protestations of optimism full of ifs ands buts and maybes were unconvincing.
Complain about this postThen his injury and strange 95% fitness comment, then poor MTs return home then that awful first ball from SH.
Since then SHs sitaution and under-use ha s been like a 6 foot question mark on the pitch.
The batting oh the batting - KP went right back to hit and hope and I hate to say it Fredie froze he looked like a Sunday late afternoon rabbit.
Ther was never a feeling of belief or of preparation - the post ashes 2005 euphoria was looking back more of a conclusion than a starting point. WE ARE NOT HUNGRY for success.
Nigel - I agree with you but if you can't trust your bowlers to bowl one side of the wicket setting fields is impossible....if you're coming out here be prepared - they are hailing this as the greatest test victoy ever - their Adelaide 2006 is our Headingley '81.
Complain about this postIt is astounding that only a handful (even less, perhaps) of bloggers have raised the issue of Collingwood's poor batting tactics in the second innings. He neither ensured that the Aussies would be chasing a stiff target nor did he protect the tailenders.
Complain about this postI think it is unfair to pick on Giles for the dropped catch. We have all dropped catches haven't we? I agree that on the basis that a bowler should be chosen for his bowling abilities and NOT batting abilities, Panesar should be playing.
So, its not just the great "Team India" who is capable of demonstrating this "Killer Instinct" to throw away a game, after all.........I hope that this England team learn a lesson from their Indian counterparts and concentrate on cricket, rather than marketing themselves as a brand (How one can be shameless enough to come out with an autobiography afer a couple of years in international cricket is beyond me!!!!!!!!!).
The series is not over yet. C'mon England!
Dad's Army Rules
Complain about this postUtterly disgusted. I watched England for so long during the bad old days of the 90s but at least there was some resolve in that team. Monday was spineless and devoid of the pride needed when representing your country.
Complain about this postThe management have to accept the brunt of the critism for England performance so far. Firstly there was the changing of the captaincy knowing full well that Freddie was an injury risk. What had Strauss done wrong? He had a wonderful summer!
Also why was Jones re-selected when he had not produced any performance of note.
Giles was selected on the basis of 1 match and also Anderson was coming back from injury.
The side was I believe selected on personnel as close to that that won the Ashes in the first place, not on what can be achieve with a side fit and potentially capable. We always seem to take a side that have several players that are injury risks.
Complain about this postCOMPLETE AND UTTER ARROGANCE !!
DF is driving an un-repairable wedge between himself and the majority of England fans with this arrogance over his insistance that the balance of the team is right !
Well if toppling over is the balance he wants to achieve then he has it !
Graveney has now thrown his 2pence worth and has backed DF..........we all know when a manager has to be defended the boat is already sinking !
Stop being so arrogant and defensive and stop treating England fans like as though we do not understand cricket !
We are frustrated that we know our team can do better and before we can fine tune the team we need to put the wheels back on !
The day DF will admit he may have been wrong on this occasion, bearing in mind he has got it right in the past and in truth that is the problem......it will be the day he will walk away....too late then and no one wants that !
Pride comes before a fall and we are falling so fast that when we hit the ground it will be the same old rubbish, a promise to review the structure of the sport, blame grass roots cricket not enought schools playing cricket, too many good players leaving the game when their skills can be used to help youngsters.................all to deflect the real problem.
DF.
Complain about this postIs this not surposed to be the best team of crickters in England, some how I don't think so. A team of school boys could have done better. I think winning the ashes in England went to there heads.
Complain about this postEnglish friends, sure your guys have got some personnel issues. But it has to be equally said that the oz team is overflowing with talent and apart from a hiccup last year in England ( it's that bloody warm beer i tells ya!) we have always been better than you strugglers.
Let's face it. You're never going to rival us on the pitch until you grow some moustaches. Think about it! Botham, Gooch, Gatting...all the greats had dirty mo's but you guys are all excited about a few changes in the middle order...grow some facial hair England!
Complain about this postI've got to say that although we won the Ashes last year, Australia were still the best side in the world. This is just their class coming through.
Complain about this postEngland can point to Andrew Strauss's dismissal and suggest that the umpiring error that dispatched him started the slide.
in answer to Mr Agnews comment on Strauss's dismissal,....how about Kasprovich's dismissal at Edgbaston last year, that cost Australia the ashes.??????
Complain about this postEngland didn't lose because of Warne, brilliant though he is, or because Pietersen missed a sweep, or because Giles played instead of Panesar or Jones in place of Read.
They lost because they had simply no intention of winning.
Under Flintoff and Fletcher, England's batsmen went into that decisive morning session having chained themselves to the most basic error of sporting psychology - playing for the draw. In just about any situation, sporting or otherwise , if you don't aim high you can expect to be floored.
Witness Australia. The Aussies never once allowed themselves to believe they had no chance of winning. To do so would have been an insult to their countrymen and a betrayal of themselves.
(As it turned out, giving Australia a target to chase provided England with their best chance of victory, with four wickets falling and chances for more.)
Set against the fight and determination of the Australians, England's technically flawed and morally impoverished approach was only going to end one way. Australia are a great cricket side and they have deservedly liquidised all English hopes of retaining the Ashes. But their greatness does not stem from the undoubted talent of their players. It is cultural. Put simply, they understand what sport is about, while this England side just don't get it.
Complain about this postThe whole strategy is based on a misunderstanding on what an allrounder really is. Look at all the greats - Botham, Sobers, Hadlee, Dev. They were Bowlers who batted brilliantly well.Usually they were picked as one of four bowlers and batted at 7.
By trying to use Flintoff as a number 6 we are forced to pick 5 bowlers, with the main selection criterion being that they can "bat a bit".
Complain about this postPick an extra batsman. Move Flintoff to 7 as part of a bowling quartet that includes Panesar,Hoggard and another seamer.
Lets hope rain, snow or a hurricane stops play for the remaining 3 tests to save then from total humiliation
Complain about this postThe result although massively important,is not the issue here.
Complain about this postThe issue is the attitude and lack of guts displayed by so called top pros with only 2/3 exceptions ....also there are parallels with the England football squad.
Too many players being put forward for selection who are patently not match fit,with an element of misplaced loyalty/favourtism being displayed by the selectors....aka Sven at the world cup.
I would rather see players selected on merit given a chance rather than the surrender to celebrity than seems to be gripping and destroying our attempt to give the aussies a real run for their money.
Geoff Boycotts withering assessment was spot on.
I am not blaming one man, but Giles has been out for a long time injured. Penesar has looked in good shape in the meantime. It just seems to me that the selectors, and Captain, of England typically look backwards when the opportunity to move forward presents its self. Perhaps, when looking at future selections, they should adopt the moto Who Dares Wins, or even, a little less dramatically, Suck It And See!
Complain about this postDuncan Fletcher has sought to justify the inclusion of Ashley Giles at the expense of Monty Panesar by referring to the fact that Shane Warne bats at 8 for Australia and makes runs. His justification is desparate and flawed because Warne is picked by Australia because he is the best spinner available to them the fact that he can make runs is a bonus. Is Fletcher suggesting that Warne would not be picked if he did not justify batting at 8? The fact is Giles is not the best spinner available to England he therefore should not be picked to be the spinner in the side.
Complain about this postI also note that DF referred to AG's runs in the 1st innings but ignored his failure in the 2nd Innings - wasn't it for moments like these that him and GJ were supposed to be there for?
Why is it that the english fans do not get behind their team? they need your support now not your condemnation they are up against a great team in the aussies and the kind of reports now happening can only make matters worst.
Complain about this postFletcher is still sticking by the selection, so has clearly learnt nothing from this debacle. Selection by committee will not work, it just shows poor leadership. Discussion with the captain of course is normal, but I think Flintoff is making the decisions.
Complain about this postHis ability as a captain is in doubt. It should have been Strauss in the absence of Vaughan. His batting improved with the added responsibility of being captain. Since being dumped his form has suffered.
The sooner we get Vaughan back as captain the better. He makes the difference, he reads the game well and positions the field a lot better.
Flintoff inspires when in form and all is going well, but is of no value as a captain when things are going badly.
There were major tactical errors in both tests. We should not be throwing wickets away when all we can get out of a match is a draw. We are in this position by backing bowlers who are not in form and can't take wickets. This leaves us under pressure even when we get a score of 551.
The Aussies have no fear of our attack, unlike our batsmen against the Aussie attack.
If Harmison wasn't showing any form before the 1st test why did we risk him, and why do we continue to repeat the mistake.
Flintoff will be a casualty as a result, over-bowling to make up for poor bowling by all except Hoggy.
My team (depending on fitness):
Straus, Vaughan, Bell, Pietersen, Collingwood, Cook, Flintoff, Read, Mahmood/Broad/ Harmison, Hoggard, , Panesar.
Cook has not been up to scratch against the fresh Aussie attack, but will fit in nicely lower in the order to re-introduce a left-handed batsman. Same with Broad, who is potentialy an unused weapon.
Harmison in only if showing he has it.
I don't know much about cricket but I why did they declare so early in their first innings? Surely, they should have got more that 600 runs before doing it?
Complain about this postHas anyone noticed something?
If England win the next Test, they will be in exactly the same position as they were in last year after the 3rd Test at Old Trafford! One win and a draw from the last two tests sufficient to keep the Ashes.
Don't forget that Australia have to win the series, England only have to draw.
I think the big question is whether the WACA groundsman will juice up the pitch. Would Australia take that risk given the possibility of recreating Sabina Park for Steve Harmison?
Complain about this postThe best thing to happen to the Ashes was England winning them in 2005 as we Australians became very bored with the inevitable that we would win and win easily. It was a big mistake for England to think anything but that they were on loan and a brief loan at that. England do not have the Attitude of the Australians "Never Say Die" everyone was predicting a draw but they forgot to tell the Austrlian team. Make no mistake you have lost the ASHES
Complain about this postthe huge gulf between the teams was shown on that final day. England could barely score at 1 an over, Australia easily scored well over 4.
Collingwood was gritty and stayed around but should have kept strike better and the amount of time he was at the crease, should have scored 50 and that would have saved the test.
Flintoff's batting form is poor - Strauss and Cook need to improve and the bowlong lacks penetration.
Agree they need to drop Giles, Anderson and replace with Panesar and Mahmoud.
Jones kept ok but would prefer they replaced with Read but they won't.
To lose a test having scored 551-6 declared is unique and from such a positive position, the negaticity thereafter was a disgrace.
Complain about this postwhen r we going to turn up??
Complain about this postWell I can understand why you English are so rattled by our victory in this Test, but you need to devise tactics for the Perth Test, not try to replay this Test with changed player selections.
Perth is baking hot at the moment (sweating as I write this) and is going to be a fast bowlers paradise. Harmison can be a match winner here, if he can get it his radar right, so don't give up yet. Sure bring in Panasar, but don't expect miracles. Lee is the man to fear for you here; 145kph will be 155kph, expect helmet repairers to make a killing :-))
Complain about this postEngland should never have declared so early. They would probably have gone on to score over 600 runs in the first innings. This would have put more pressure on Australia. I thought at the time that if Australia matched our score, we could be in big trouble on the final day, knowing that we can easily collapse under these circumstances.
Complain about this postEngland, under Michael Vaughan would have been a lot better organised and professional. Although Flintoff did very well in bowling and got some runs in the first innings, I nevertheless feel he had a relaxed attitude to the game, thinking that England had at least secured the draw. Vaughan would not have this laid-back approach and would have kept constant pressure on Australia.
Give the Aussies some credit. If Warne had played for us, then we'd have won. He's the difference.
Complain about this postThe most depressing thing about this whole sorry affair is England's refusal to take responsibility for the way they collapsed. In the aftermath, not a single person from within the camp said, 'we played really badly, we let everyone down, there are no excuses for the way we played.' Instead we got half-hearted excuses: reverse swing, bad umpiring, etc etc. It was a fine batting wicket, as Australia showed afterwards.
Why can't we just admit it when we've messed up? Perhaps it is this inability to confront our own mistakes that lies at the heart of our inferiority complex towards the Aussies.
Complain about this postOnce again Flintoff as captain allowed the team to relax before the game was truly over, he did it against the Sri Lankans last year and allowing them the draw and now he's done it against the aussies. The aussies on the other hand always believed they could win this test and never gave up that belief. To add to the problems he also picked his pals regardless of how little cricket they've played over the last year and the fact that there are form players that should be picked in their stead. Don't get me wrong I think Flintoff is an amazing player and without him and Hoggard we'd never have got the aussies out once. As for fletcher saying they asked the entire team who should play, how can you do that?! Surely all the players are going to say that they are the ones who should play! Sounds like him trying to move the blame for bad selection. Hopefully they'll take a chance in the next test and bring both Monty and Mahmood and maybe we'll put up a bit more of a fight though I believe the series might be beyond us now.
Complain about this postI agree with Bob, although I should point out at the beginning that I am English! We should stop giving our team a hard time. We should look at ourselves. What is it about the English that stops us from being ruthless in sport? It's easy to blame the players but the number of times I have seen our football team throw away games that we should have won, makes me think that there is a deeper problem within ourselves. We are just not ruthless when it comes to sport. We choke. I console myself with the the fact that this was only cricket. It hurts much more for me when our football team lose, as that is our national sport. But we have the same problem there. Why can't we win a penalty shoot out? We have genuinely good players. It is certainly not constructive to regain confidence by slaughtering the players. Give the players a break. They tried their hardest and, because they're English, choked!! I doubt it would have been any different if Panesar was playing and Strauss was captain. I appreciate that those changes might have made the difference, but the fact isn't changed that the players we most expected to dig in, failed to do so. How can we blame them for that? I'm sure they didn't want to throw it away. How can we blame the management for that? What can the coach do when his star players make reckless shots, choke and get out? I think we need to look at the bigger picture and work out how to stop us being a nation that chokes in sport!!
Complain about this postWhilst England's performance was improved over the first 4 days ..... was this purely pitch related?
Complain about this postAustralia still managed to get within reach of the English first innings, despite batting second...... are we not crediting a little too much the abilities of this current England side?
To Michael who posted at 10.43am 5 dec.
Well mate I鈥檓 sorry if the last two tests are dead rubbers but the fact is England have done this when they are visiting Australia since the early Nineties. Take this current visit: they come out two weeks before the first test, play one hit-and-giggle game, play another hit-and-giggle game then play one decent four-dayer against a State side, then it is straight into the first test. Then they lose, and everybody is dumbfounded. Who do you have running cricket over in the UK, Bill and Ben the Flower-Pot Men? If you check your Wisden you will find that Australia do not treat England with such arrogant contempt. They are out a month before the first test and back in the Seventies they used to be out two or three months before the first test.
Here鈥檚 another thing: coming out of an Australian winter into an English summer, well actually the conditions are pretty much the same! But coming out of an English winter into an Australian summer, it would be like trying to play cricket on Mercury! It takes two weeks just to get used to the light (you鈥檒l find that out when you get here 鈥 don鈥檛 forget your sunnies). The light is different, the pitches are different, the crowds are different, the food is different (excellent, but nonetheless different) everything is different. You lot don鈥檛 seem to be able to get past the notion that you are just travelling to a warmer version of Blighty. Newsflash 鈥 you鈥檙e not.
You need to be out here SIX weeks before the first test, not two, and you need to play at least four flat out four-day matches against State sides (who by the way are some of the finest provincial sides in the world and several of whom in any given year would rate among the Test-playing countries if they were independent) and try to smash them. Because they will be trying to smash you.
So Michael mate, if you want to blame someone, don鈥檛 blame Duncan, don鈥檛 blame Flintoff , don鈥檛 blame Giles or G Jones, blame Bill and Ben the Flower-Pot Men back in England for their truly insane scheduling.
This is also infuriating for Oz supporters Michael, except it doesn't cost us 1000's of pounds. Fully expect to see UK win one or both of the last two tests, long after it matters.
Complain about this postThe management must take a share of the blame. It takes a month to acclimatise to Australia and get over jetlag, let alone get ready to face their cricket team.
When the Aussies were here in 2005, they were useless for their first month, losing one-dayers to Somerset and Bangladesh.
We need to go back to the old way of three four-day games, and preferably four, plus the same number of one-dayers, before we take the field against Australia.
Otherwise we will carry on being 2-0 down before we have woken up.
Complain about this postfirstly, congratulations to the aussies, amazing bowling from clark and warne in the morning. also nowhere near enough credit has gone to ponting and hussey for the great work from 30ish-2. to score so quickly chasing 150+ on the last day from that position, having put so much work in in the field, there was pressure there and i reckon england were slight favorites to win.
i also just want to say the hysterically negative coverage to england's performance really gets my goat. its very disappointing for everyone that what was shaping up into a really good contest has apparently been snatched away so quickly. but stranger things have happened in cricket and will continue to. tis the beauty of the game. i just hope the england team spend the rest of the week remembering that they forced a really strong team containing some genuinely great players to work and play at their best to scrape a narrow victory against us.
these batsmen made errors, they always have and they always will, and sometimes they are made at the same time and then you get a rubbish score.
disappointing yes, everything else that has been thrown at them, no.
if we manage to pull off victory in perth we're 2-1 down with melbourne and sydney, which will hopefuly do a bit more and which will therefore suit england a bit more, to play. Ashes over? No chance!
Complain about this postSo Aggers, are you still advocating the selection of Giles above Panesar? I would say that this selection (along with Jones above Read) is largely responsible for the negative/defensive approach to the first two tests.
Complain about this postI agree with you that the batsmen's approach in the second innings was "jittery and negative" but I think this stems from a negative team selection and a negative/defensive approach to the game in general. I was hoping that we had learnt our lessons from the last Ashes series, in particular the way we played attacking cricket after the Lords defeat, but we seem to have gone backwards. So let's hope we make some positive team selections; Panesar for Giles, Mahmood for Anderson and Read for Jones
The English team, selectors and the media always keep talking about players who are not available, for whatever reason. Let us stop talking about Vaughn, Jones and Trescothick. From the available players, I would appoint Strauss as the captain and Read, Monty and Plunkett in place of G. Jones, Giles and Harmison. Another thing, we should not ignore one day cricket as if it does not matter. All other teams play all matches to win. We seem to go through the motions at one day cricket. The final day at Adelaide was akin to one day cricket.
Complain about this postWe have 2 bowlers better than Giles in the side who didn't bowl, Collingwood and Bell would do a better job. Get rid of Giles, Jones and Anderson and play Monty, Read and Mahmood to at least get a bit of variety into the attack. We now have nothing to lose, so maybe it's time to give the new boys a chance, they at least will show a bit of pride and fight to try and cement a place for themselves in the side.
Complain about this postI'm an Aussie in London and loved every minute of our amazing fight back which bar a miracle will ensure we regain the coveted urn. Although mercifilly ribbed when deservedly beaten in the last series, I respect the English side and fans and want to see the best of England vs the best of Australia. In the final session in Adelaide Giles was treated with disdain. Hussey thumped sweep shots and Ponting plundered shots at will. Never looked even slightly bothered. I鈥檓 a back yard hacker but would fancy myself against Gilo any day. The King of Pain for English supporters.
Complain about this postI agree that monty should have been in and possibly saj mahmoud instead of anderson, but at the end of the day it was still there to be won or at the least get a draw - boils down to a lack of self belief and a defensive mentality. Fletcher and freddie must shoulder a lot of the blame, but the players, except hoggie, collingwood and pietersen ( in the first innings anyway) should also take a long hard look at themselves.......
Complain about this postThe parallels regarding the appalling selections and strategies of the England rugby and football teams are scarily apparent, abd Fletcher is tarred with the same brush as the woeful Robinson, Erikson and McClaren.
No cricket played for a year, so Giles and Anderson are immediately selected! Jones is restored at the first available opportunity! These were all disasters waiting to happen, as everyone realises. They should be jettisoned NOW while there is still a statistical / technical glimmer of hope.
Fletcher now tries to justify his favouritism by hiding behind an "other selectors" policy. And how ineffective does Harmison have to be to be dropped?
Add to that we have Cook out of his depth, Strauss out of form, and Freddie struggling to cope with the most arduous captaincy ask of all. Surely the mistake of making Botham captain showed the folly of heaping even more responsibility on your star all-rounder.
The Giles at 8 thing was always nonsense - how many Test bowlers in history owe their place to their batting? Mahmood would have been just as capable there. A big Panesar bag is far better than the 20-odd runs that Giles contributes. Why did Fletcher call him the world's best finger-spinner and then ignore him at the first opportunity?
So bring in Panesar & Read (who should never have been left out), plus Mahmood & Plunkett, and they should clearly replace Giles, Jones, Anderson and the woeful Harmison. And bring in Joyce for Cook (as England didn't have the sense to send for a more experienced replacement batter).
Oh, and give Strauss the captaincy back.
Almost at the end of the dream now. The reality will surely be....an unchanged team for Perth, as Fletcher asserts the present incumbents be given a chance to make amends.
Complain about this postEngland let this get away in the first innings.
They should have batted longer so that there was only time to A/ bowl out aussie twice, or B/ safely draw the match, in other words, make only one winner possible.
Giles has been a liability in this series thus far, especially his dropped catch that signalled trouble,Monte has to play in his place he couldn't score less runs than Ashley.. if not kiss the urn godbye right now.
Complain about this postIt takes a lot to make me want to go to the effort to actually bothere writing, But I am bewildered and dismayed to the max.. Not to mention frustrated beyond belief, As a proud England supporter, English by birth but living in Oz for the past 20 years you can imagine the stick that has been served my way every ashes campaign over the past 17 or so years.Then along comes 2005..Finally..At last!! Un believable joy and that rarest of opportunities, to return the compliment (Stick wise) to all my Aussie friends who at last were hushed..Step forward 2006...Oh dear!!! Have England learnt nothing.Lets say, just for the argument The Aussies have been the best side in the world over the last 15 years or so..lets say again (for the Argument) that during the late 70's and 80's the Windies held that title..What was the winning formula...?? 5 bowlers?? No..NO..No.. Australia learnt from the Windies ..4 I repeat 4 bowlers is the ticket..4 Englands side should have 6 specialist batsmen..a keeper batsman and 4 Bowlers...England have a wonderfull opportunity to be the best side in the world for years to come..Because we have a 4th bowler who also happens to be arguably the best all rounder in the world..Australia bowl McGrath, Lee, Clark and Warne..if the innings drags on then Clarke or martin is used as a 5th..Lo and behold that fromula seems to win...Contradict me!!! windies used 4 quicks and if needed Richards would have a roll..Lo and behold the won also ..Contradict me!!.. England .. Joyce, Strauss, Cook, Bell, Pieterson, Collingwood, Flintoff, Read/Jones, Harmison, Hoggard and PANESAR..No particular order ..Duncan Fletcher You Choose..That side will score runs...You play your 3 best quicks and the best spinner in England..The innings drags on then Use Pieterson and Collingwood ..God knows Collers is so highly regarded he's automatic selection to bowl in one dayers..So are you seriously saying he cant send down half a dozen overs in a test to give the others a rest if needed..Im pretty certain he would do as good a job as Richards has for the Windies Or Ponting, Martin and Clarke have for Oz..How many tests have Australia won over the last 16 years using exactly that formula?? how many lost?? WAKE UP..Its time..
Complain about this postSeveral intersting ideas proposed in JA's column and by the pundits above. It seems that nobody has taken into account one key factor that has already gone a long way toward deciding this series. INJURY.
Complain about this postThe Strauss dismissal was indeed a bad decision but as noted by Jeff Keogh, the decision was far less harsh than the Kaspa decision last year. The probem was that England had already lost Cook the night before (who will go on to be a world class player but is very green to be up against the Aussies). The openers were phenomenal last year and took a lot of sting out of the Aussie attack before the likes of Pietersen had to face it.
INJURY 1 Trescothik
Then there was no Vaughan to arrive at 3 and do the captains steady 'em and dig in.This leaves England's (if not the world's) most devastating batsmen to face the music with the bowlers feeling fresh and confident rather than mentally tired from the wickets earned prior. KP also seemed to tweak a hamstring which may explain why he changed his approach against Warne. 1st innings he would have danced and dispatched that through mid-on or just kicked it away and demanded a better line from Warne.
Not only was Vaughan not there to bat but he wasn't there to lead, to demand a consistent approach to 'surviving' the rest of the day. England had Collingwood keen to force a quick single and run out Bell but happy to bat very defensively for the rest of his innings, then had Flintoff and Jones caught slashing at balls they were lucky to reach.
Once they were a few down they needed to be proactive not reactive 'wait and see how the first session goes' is not good enough against anyone let alone the aussies.
INJURY 2 Vaughan
So missing 2 world class batsmen we analyse the bowling stocks. Where is the forgotten man of the England side? Simon Jones has not been mentioned nor his rehab covered by anyone in the media but he was close to their best last year. What a difference in pressure for Hayden and Langer to survive Hoggard and Flintoff and still have Jones to come instead of a partly fit Andersen.
Harmison is world class on his day but needs thousands of variables to come together to get it right. He isn't injured at the moment but has been in the last 12 months and hence hasn't had enough fitness and rhythm coming into the series.
INJURY 3 Jones
I don't think Giles or Andersen are world class but both could be good average test players when fully fit and bowling behind an in form England attack. BUT both of them are coming back from injury as well and neither have had the chance to get fit enough and get their rhythm either.
If Australia took 2 of their best batsmen and their captain and 1 of their best bowlers out all together and had a lot of the rest coming back to form they would struggle to. Just look at what taking McGrath out of the team did last series.
This series would have been tough with everyone fit from the last ashes and playing just as well as last year let alone with the team England are forced to call on now. At least they have unearthed Collingwood from all the injuries.
And the last factor this team must overcome is the 'singing when we're winning' attitude of most of their fans. All to happy to ignore cricket in the large part for the last 20 years, on the bandwagon last year and already calling the series over less than half way through. This same team, for all its failings had Australia on the ropes for most of the game, not many sides have done that at home over the last decade.
Attack can be the only form of defence for the ashes from here in. Its that attitude that won them the ashes last year and is what is required now. It takes a large part of the theorising out of the captaincy for Flintoff and allows for the logical inclusion of Monty and Mahmood. Keep Jones at keeper until there is somebody more obviously outstanding than Read to replace him.
This England side could still win the series but it will be very tough from here. Tougher still if all their fans and media continue sticking the boot in! I'm an Aussie and I still think they can do it but then I've got vested interests, I actually want to watch an interesting series and not another Aussie walkover!!
We may be missing three of our first XI in Michael Vaughan, Simon Jones and Marcus Trescothick, but once again English sport has exemplified an alarming lack of preperation.
Complain about this postFor one, Andrew Flintoff should not be captain. He is a batsman and a bowler, an all rounder, that's enough on his plate, Strauss is a cricketer's captain and that was clear from his leadership in the summer tests. That's one fatal error then.
Secondly, more synonymous in English sport in 2006, taking injured players. Why heap the pressure of captaincy on Flintoff, though he wanted it, when he was injured. Why play Ashley Giles ahead of Monty Panesar when Giles hasn't played in over a year and whose spinning skill isn't a patch on Panesar? Why play James Anderson, who on past showings, is clearly out of his depth in test cricket? Too many errors have already been made and Geoffrey Boycott isn't wrong (when is he wrong) when he insists the Ashes are over-this England team do not have the determination that so clinically streaks the Australian side.
The simple fact is England look more used to losing than Australia, and it shows. To Australia, losing is a freak occurrence that only makes them more determined, for too many of the England players who have won the Ashes, they already have something to tell the grandchildren.
As an Australian I find myself with a smile in one eye and a tear in the other. This was the most remarkable of victories. If the mental robustness of our team was any tougher it would rust ... hence my smile. But as a contest the series has been dulled ... hence my tear. To my Australian brothers I say lets find a little more magnanimity in victory To my English brothers I say steady men, steady. It is not over, yet.
Complain about this postI won't gloat as some of my fellow countrymen seem keen on doing. We copped it from you last year and now it's your turn to cop some back. That's the way it goes - defeats make the victories ever sweeter.
I will say that I never seriously believed that England would retain the Ashes in Australia. I firmly believed before the start of the series that 2005 was a blip (England had played above themselves and Australia below themselves) and that the natural order would be restored in 2006. What does surprise me is the manner in which England has capitulated thus far. I expected a tougher fight.
I still expect that England will be good enough to win one test (maybe Sydney?) and there will probably be a draw thrown in there somewhere too. That makes for a 3-1 result - what I had expected all along. I just didn't expect that the Ashes could possibly be secured as soon as the Perth test.
Look out for some changes to the Aussie line up. Hayden has passed his use by date and must soon make way for Jacques. Clarke seems to have secured his spot for the time being so it is likely that Martyn will move over for Watson when he is fit again. That could be the main interest now - seeing how "Dad's Army" copes with a long series and how it evolves. 3 Nil up in Melboure would be a perfect opportunity to bring on the new boys.
Complain about this postLOOK ITS OBVIOUS THAT FLINTOFF IS NOT A CAPTAIN.
COMMONSENSE SHOULD HAVE SHOWN HIM THAT DECLARING ON 551 WAS JUST TOO RISKY. IF ONLY THEY HAD MADE 600 FIRST.
I.R BELL AND STRAUSS ARE THE ONLY REAL CAPTAIN MATERIAL IN THE SIDE. ALL BE IT 4 TO 6 YEARS AWAY.
HOW BAD A DECISION NOW TO DROP ALAN LAMB. WE REALLY NEEDED HIS EXPERIENCE.
Complain about this postOne phrase sums up the England players: heroes to zeros!!!!
Complain about this postMeant to also add to previous comment.......Ashley Giles...Im sure he is a nice chap..Decent fellow..team player and all that..BUT..Poor fellow has been out of cricket witha debilitating problem..He, In all fairness was not a world beater before that..When you resort to picking a front line bowler..Your Spin option on the basis that he may occasionally muster the odd 20 runs you have a major selection problem.. I had to agree totally with my Aussie friends when thay said Giles wouldnt get any of US out on a 5th day turner..much less test quality batsmen..His major wicket taking ball is the one when the opposition have already scored 400 plus and are bored or trying to hit everything in an easy run chase..and the mode of dismissal is usually caught out near the boundary somewhere..he'd probably never even get those if he had to catch them too!!! Come on England pick the "best finger spinner in England" he might contribute about as many runs as Good old Ashley anyway..And of what real value is a bits and pieces spinner/Batter anyway If Ash scores 20 runs maybe Monty would have taken 2 or 3 wickets and saved you a hundred or more!!! Pick your 4 best bowlers!! Freddie, Hoggard, Harmison and Monty..Just like the successfull sides do (Australia ..Of last 15 years) add a wicketkeeper batsman (just like Oz) and 6 specialist batsman (just like Oz.. Oh and incidentally the Windies of the 80's they won too) The formula is there for blind Freddie to see (Meant Duncan) and lo and behold ..Advantage England because along with our 6 batters and keeper we have the number 1 allrounder aswell!!! Solves that batting down to 8 problem!!! we will win far more than we lose...Still got Collingwood and Pieterson to make a 5th if needed ( just like Australia and the windies do)..The wheel has already been invented..Dont be so stubborn as not to see it..or think you have a better paln..Yours does'nt work...4 bowlers does in the 70's, 80's and now.. the best team in the world uses it..and will continue to..what is their record 12 out of last 13 or something like that.. and god knows how many over the last 15 years..Tell me I'm wrong!!! and then prove it!!
Complain about this postSo the psychologist is in town. God help us!
There is no question in my own mind that it is all down to self-belief. Or in England's case, self-doubt. England simply do not have the mental metal to beat the Aussies and if he who hesitates is lost, then England got what was coming to them. You can just see it, for example, in interviews - while Ponting is saying, "We will win", Flintoff is "hopeful". This sums it all up really.
England need strong leadership with belief in the certainty of winning, not hope. And that starts with the selectors who must make positive and agressive rather than defensive selections.
Somehow I think the likes of Truman would have given a psychologist short shrift, but who could doubt his self-belief.
Complain about this postAustralians come on here giving it the big one with their so obvious and mind nummingly boring wit...per usual! Yes we lost big deal and I'm glad your enjoying it but what comes around goes around and thats where you don't get it.
Once you lost last time (of course it it was a fluke by 2 runs) and of course you weren't all whinging after the defeat were you as your far to good for that except of course all the excuses wheeled out afterwards, to chummy with the poms, poms cheating with subs, the rain , McGrath injured blah blah blah but of course no whinging just like when you went out in Germany this summer or when you lost the World Cup to us useless poms in your back yard!!
You call us bad losers, you are by far the most ungracious losers in world sport, theres always something, we take it on the chin and accept it cos we're used to it, we might moan about our own team but we accept it and most of us accept the better team won at the end of the day but not you lot and the funny thing is you can't see it. How many times have I read that we fluked the win last time, not many of you were saying the better team won if I remember and the same goes with that great win in the rugby in 2003. Funny this tour how you tried to restrict the numbers of England fans going wasn't it and how most are split up in the ground - win at all costs along with bad losers springs to mind!!
I was at Sydney in 99 when Gough got a hatrick and even though you were winning easily, you all got all moody and punchy, like I say you couldn't handle it...when the boots on the other foot i thing the saying is. If we come back in this series it will be interesting to see the responses of the many boring australian posters on this and many other sites, of course thats if you show up (I have my doubts) and obviously there will be no slagging off of your team will there as you don't do that sort of thing do you, I must have been mistaken then at the slaughtering Pontings team got when they lost last time!
You won fair and square, well done, i could easily list excuses on here but you played superbly on the final day and deserved it cos of that but things could have been different and the gap isn't that big remember another twenty minutes batting after tea and it would have been a draw. I think we can get a win in the next test and its not all doom and gloom and then we'll see what the aussies are like under pressure and will all the loud neanderthal crowing come back to haunt them.
Complain about this postTwo nil down, comes the time comes the man, perfect chance for a team to become heroes and pull off THE most amazing come back........
Complain about this postFirst point to note about the Edgbaston decision comment below. Whilst being technically not out it was hardly the greatest umpiring clanger of all time. It was only Simon Hughes's tenacious reviewing of the incident that spotted the inch or two gap between hand and bat at the moment the ball struck. It's not like it was a dodgy LBW or bat-pad decision that could have been easily spotted.
As for this Ashes series, sport at this level is about technique, courage and most importantly toughness of mental attitude. You see it time and again teams, and individuals, lose matches before they've even started because they are not in the right frame of mind. Opposing teams only get under your skin if you let them. As the Aussie coach said afterwards, England just sat back and let them bowl at them. Why?
There is a lot of talent in this England team but someone's got to instill in them the right attitude and quick else they are going to be rolled over.
Complain about this postEngland is just no match to the aussies.
Complain about this postbecause you won a few in the past does not mean you can win again.
they are too strong for you.
The fact is that the players needed to play their natural game and change tactics later on in the day if required. I think of the innings as essentially only 60 runs, even against superb bowling there are scoring opportunities and it seems to me that England were just in a beaten mental state and not willing totake the game to the Aussies. This must be addressed for us to have any chance of regaining some pride in our cricket. Ijust hope this can happen by Melbourne when I am flying out to support, I want to see arecord broken, but not with us at the receiving end.
Complain about this postWe could have done with scoring a few more runs and more quickly on the first 2 days. Regardless of how the match turned out, If the aim was to make them follow on and bowl them out twice then 551 was never going to be enough on that pitch anyway. How crucial would another 50 runs have been? Similarly in the 2nd innings, one more run every 2 overs would have probably saved the game-another 30 runs or so. Again, it comes down to lack of positivity or urgency. Ashley Giles has been a good cricketer for England, but I'm afraid he is past his best and he certainly isn't 'match fit'. As for this 'batting down to no 8' there is some muddled thinking going on here. Neither Harmison nor Anderson is bowling well enough to be in the side at the moment, so presumably they must be picked for their batting too? Yes it's preposterous but that is the logic of Fletchers' argument. On this basis alone Mahmood should have played as he is a better batsman than Anderson. That he is probably a better bowler too seems to be lost on Fletcher. The point I'm trying to make is that in TEST cricket, bowlers must be in the side for their bowling and batsmen for their batting- otherwise you end up with a glorified one-day side.
Complain about this postThe truth is that we are not good enough to beat an ageing Austrlian team which still has a number of world class players in it such as Ponting, Warne and possibly Lee, Hussey, McGrath, Gilchrist and both openers.
Cook is not a test standard opening bat and needs to work on his technique, and we have to be honest and dispence of Giles, who should not play again, Jones ditto, and sadly Harmison for the moment, who could be best replaced by Stuart Broad who has the potential to be a number 8 batsman as does Mahmood.
If Vaughan is fit he could play, but Joyce may be a better option.
The team for the next test could be radical and read:-
Strauss
Complain about this postJoyce or Vaughan if fit
Bell
Collingwood
Pieterson
Flintoff
Read
Mahmood
Broad
Hoggard
Panesar
When Aussie lost last ashesh to Eng, It was big jolt to each Aus player. Justin Langer have correctly said, the movement they handed over Ashesh trophy to Eng they planted revival. Aus lost last ashesh because they were over confident & Eng played well above the expectations. Now when Eng knows that they are going to face the wounded champions they would have atleast planned if not win how to draw the series. looking at the two test play there seems to be no preperation of how to play wounded champions. The whole cricket world knows that Aussie hardly give away any opportunity of win.
Complain about this postMonty panesar should be picked for the next test, although he is not the best batter he is a very valuable spinner and should be considered more
Complain about this postIts easy sack fletcher and the rest of his back room staff and get someone who can get the pride back into the English team
Complain about this postA well written article.However,i wish to add that englands attemp at saving the game was lacking , skill and tecnique.One cannot defend on a turning track by solely blocking deliveries.There was so much set on defence,that they were unable to put away the few bad balls that came along.Please ,pass on to them that the best means of defence on a turning track,is to attack.That way,those batpad,and silly possitions set by the aussies,would never have been a problem.Thanks,and take care.
Orville ,Canada.
Complain about this postI think that England's poor shot selection was induced by good Aussie bowling, doesn't excuse the shots of Pieterson (injury?), Flintoff and Jones, but does offer explanation.
Complain about this postI think England should take heart from the first few days, controversially, given Collingwood's fantastic performance with the bat, I think England should look at moving Pieterson up to four. We have a real problem with a potentially long tail; from five down we have: Pieterson-poor starter, Flintoff-poor starter, Jones-Unreliable particularly under pressure, looks lost without Flintoff. Its a perfect recipe for a mid-order batting collapse.
The above is simply food-for-thought, please shoot it down. I just think some analysis is useful, rather than doom-mongering.
Unless weather intervenes we will get hammered 5-0. Selections have been seriously erronoeous; but underlying all our problems is the fact that this squad has simply not been adequately prepared, with too many "automatic" selections- including Gilo who was and isn't going to be dropped for Panesar by Fletcher & co- who have hardly played any cricket. The lack of pre-test preparation has been shamefully apparent- recall the first day in Brisbane- and explains why our national side has been "intimidated" by Warne et al. The lack of preparation cannot be made up quickly enough on this tour because the opposition too will improve; but it would be important for changing the way that our players are prepared for future tours if Fletcher & co accept this fundamental error. Sadly, they won't own up soon enough (when has Fletcher ever admitted he was wrong?) and therefore Giles and Jones will continue to get picked. Hence an "inevitable" 5-0 drubbing.
Complain about this postAt least Monty will have pleanty more chances- his career will last (if he ever gets played!)
Complain about this postMonty has too much pressure now to perform, but can he peform now? I think blame trescothicc. cos first he said he is fit and left tour saying he was stressed.What a chicken! Senior going out cos of stress, therefore left doubts and sloppiness in other players mind. I think in england we always gonna use blame theory. Last Ashes was luck or fix, this one is real thats why it is 2-0, soon will be 5-0. Unless english players do something. I hope they make 2-3. Monty needs to be superb, cos english batsmen can make runs against Aussies
Complain about this postAs an Aussie I was delighted with the test naturally.
I have to say though I am absolutely astonished at the way England have approached this whole series. They might as well have e-mailed each Australian player and said "Our plan to retain the Ashes is to draw each test."
Enough has been said about Panisar and Giles. Seems to be obvious to everyone except Duncan Fletcher. That whole selection thought process seemed to infultrate the batting on the 5th day. If they had been more positive they could have set a target of 200 plus and who knows maybe conjured up a win. They just weren't thinking like that.
England beat us last series by playing good postive aggressive exciting cricket. What's happened.
Now the bowling attack has taken 23 wickets for a total of over 1500 runs I suppose Giles devestating performace with the bat and his exceptional fielding will keep him in the side. Anderson has our batsmen running for cover too. Best not tamper with such a winning formula.
I want to see the best English team available play against us but I don't think it's going to happen.
Complain about this postThe initial choice of captain was wrong. Strauss made better use of the bowlers, Monty included during the summer, Flintoff does not seem to rate Monty either, look at the first Sri Lankan test when he bowled all those overs. The selections made by Duncan Fletcher reinforced this aim for a draw view. His choice of Jones / Giles over Read / Panesar was the start of the decline.
Play the best bowlers, wicket keeper and batsman. Go hard at the Aussies and give it a go, best to go down trying to win than loosing in such humiliating fashion in both of the first tests.
Duncan should then go, and we should start afresh.
Complain about this post1.Flintoff's captaincy was questionable.He declared too early 1st innings.Something similar happened to the Aussies vs India in Adelaide. It should've been in theback of AF's mind when declaring.
Complain about this post2. In their effort to balance runs from the lower order they lost an edge in taking wickets. On benign pitches that is vital.
3. Flintoff's body language this series has been appalling. He appears abject and discouraged and he's the captain!!!!
4. The Aussies are not THAT much better than England. The same bowlers who bamboozled England 2nd innings looked quite ordinary in the first.
5. DF needs to eat some humble pie. He's stuck to his principles and been found to be sticking to thr wrong ones.
6. Contrary to popular opinion we can't drop all our bowlers and expect to win the next Test. Panesar must be picked, however.
The last thing England needed was a break to think about this last test. They need to focus on atleast getting a draw in the next test otherwise you will have literally thousands of punters arriving in Aus to watch the final 2 test which could be dead rubbers.
Complain about this postmany people saying drop giles for monty, but what about harmison and anderson.... i have some horrible series stats from the bbc for you guys. giles compared to these two bowler, his record does not seem that bad.......
M J Hoggard 88over 279/10w
A Flintoff 70over 236/7w
A F Giles 82over 262/3w
J M Anderson 63over 303/2w [wah!! almost 5run/over and averaging 150run/w]
S J Harmison 71over 288/ 1w [4 run per over and averaging 288run/w]
so giles wasn't bad compared to the other two bowlers, 82run/wicket and only allow batman to score 3run/over.
Complain about this postBring them home now it will be better for them., get fletcher out and get someone with a brain in. Please. we need fight and we dont have it. we fight like little girls and that isnt gd.
Complain about this postLet's face it, Australia is simply a better team.
It doesn't matter if Panesar bowled instead of Giles, Read played instead of Jones, etc etc., the Ashes were always returning to Australia. England are a reasonable team and can compete with most nations for 5 days, just not this one.
The last series was a fluke.
Welcome back to earth, England!
Complain about this postNo doubt we will be selecting our fast bowlers based on their batting averages as well as our wicket keeper and spinners in future as it obviously works
Complain about this posti notice that there has been quite a bit of chatter regarding acclimatisation, time in country, better preparation etc.
just remember it was the ICC that scheduled the Champions Trophy only weeks prior to this series starting (which, we also won by the way). So if the Poms were to have a decent hit out, then they would have had to nearly fly straight from that tournament to Oz. Now that is a big ask.
The timing was also of the Champions Trophy was also a concern for us and there was consideration of resting some of the Oz players but the ICC put the hard word on Cricket Australia, threatening fines and other BS for potentially underming the series. Maybe the ICC should take some stick too.
Complain about this postThin line between a draw, victory, and defeat.
Now, we could have done with on-form strike bowlers (S Jones for one!), and we could have done without the collapse in the second innings.
If we had another in-form seam/swing/pace bowler (instead of Anderson), and a spinning spin-bowler (Monty instead of Giles), then we'd have had the weaponry to actually win this test.
I was hoping for a lead of around 200 runs and 35-40 overs left in the day. That would have been a run-rate that the Aussies would have seen as achievable, but that hadn't been seen yet in the test. It would have been just enough to tempt them to attack the target, which would have given us more wickets (from form bowlers) and a chance to win it, with a draw as the backup.
Fielding is a problem- Fred's fielding positions are not aggressive enough to worry the top 8 oz batsmen.
Complain about this postWell, that was a rather disappointing end to a test match (and I assume the series as well).
And this is coming from an Aussie !!
The last series was so damn exciting and even though I copped a load of stick from my English mates last year, my response was always : at least England showed up and to be honest I thought England were great !
Although I am deleighted to be 2 - 0 up this time, I can't fathom what the hell happened to England yesterday ! I thought the Gabba Test was a monor blip and England would come good and have a real go at the Aussies !
For all the English out there I will share some of my experiences in following Australia.
In 1984 the Windies flogged Australia at the Gabba and our Captain Kym Hughes cries on national telly and promptly resigned ! Sad days indeed, but this led to a new era in Aussie cricket with Alan Border taking over the reigns and the likes of new blood like Steve Waugh getting their chance.
A few years back we were playing in India, and made them follow-on, only for Laxman and Dravid to spank us all around the park and we ended up getting bowled out for about 110 to lose in the most unlikely fashion !!
So strange things happen in test cricket, and yesterday was a prime example of that.
I still think that England can't become bad players overnight: and I rate Freddy and Pietersen as truly world class.
Aggers is right : in that yesterday we saw "panic and indecision" from England.
Maybe nerves played their part, and perhaps too much was expected from the players by the English press, and the supporters.
Still, bring on the rest of the series, and lets hope England can show a bit of resolve and make a game of it for the last few tests...
Still, my 50 quid bet with my mate from the pub is looking good i suppose.
Complain about this postI think the Australians are in as big a shock as the English but the euphoria that comes from a win like that means that they can claim that they felt that they still had a chance even before the final day started - there is always a chance while there is life but the team that played over the weekend needs to be changed dramatically as far as the bowling and wicket keeping areas are concerned as the look on the face of the bowlers as they trudged off having being beaten was something else - the other query I have is whether Flintoff is the right captain at this time - under Strauss Flintoff would be bowled more and Panesar, Mahmood and Reid would have been playing instead of Giles, Anderson and Jones - that is players that have successfully played in the heat of the Test arena in the past 12 months not players who have been out of the game completely or have lost any of the confidence they were bubbling over with in 2005 - Jones Trescothick and Vaughan are obviously huge losses but really to play players who have not been under Test Match pressure for more than 12 months and even then were part players in some cases just doesn't make sense - the whole Management from Fletcher Flintoff down need to admit they got it all wrong and look to be the winners of the remaining part of the Ashes Series even if it means that they don't come back with the Ashes (by this I mean they need to win 2 of the 3 Tests remaining even if they lose the other)
Complain about this postI am an ardent follower of test cricket and a South African supporter. I think England need to face up to the facts that they came into this series as the underdogs. Australia have played exceedingly well since last year's Ashes, and England have struggled. The media has duped English fans into believing that they're better than they are. The players seem to know that - which is why they look so nervous. I think if the England fans are honest about how good/bad the team are, and stop putting false expectations on them, then the team might actually come good. Its like believing that Button will beat Alonso in F1. Its possible but not very likely.
Complain about this postbeing intimidated out of a cricket match is school boy stuff and they must have already had doubts in their minds about their ability. they need a dose of self belief and a positive attitude and as they have shown in the past they have the ability to dominate the aussies.
Complain about this postA utterly abysmal display by England batting lineup - all the stars of the team must have remembered last years headlines and thought they were invincible - Pietersen treated Warne with contempt as he'd dealt with him so well in the first innings. Trying to sweep him on a ball pitched into the rough was absolutely school boy stuff!
Complain about this postGiles selection utterly baffling ... ??? He is not a test player when fit ... after a year out injured, he should have been back here enjoying the rain!
well what can you say ?how can we loose after decalring at 553 for 6. where is MONTY?why he was not selected GILES hasn 't played any CRICKET this year and we know what happened ? goodbye to retaining ASHES I am not going there anyway i have cancel my trip ED
Complain about this postSurely now the squad should be used to its full potential. If the likes of Mahmood, Plunkett, Read and Panesar are not used now, how damming a comment is that of the faith shown in them by Flintoff and Fletcher? The series is as good as dead and the three bowlers i've just mentioned COULD NOT do a more inept job than Giles, Anderson and Harmison. You have to show faith in the squad and give the lift that new blood always gives to a team in this situation.
Also Strauss - stop sulking over losing the captaincy, if your bottom lip was any further out it would be dragging on the ground. You are the better captain, but live with it!
Complain about this postFlabbergasting second Test. When playing One Day the England team look like they want to be playing a Test Match. When they play Test Matches, they're One Innings Wonders.
Talk about Men playing Boys!
And I'm Eng;ish, but not very proud of it.
Complain about this postIf Pakistan or India has performed like that, then the match fixing commission would be investigating the performance. Perhaps Flintoff and co should be interviewed by the police. Re-open the King Commission! At least that way England will never be sio complacent again.
Complain about this postmuch as warne was again a revalation with the ball on the final day. his appealing antics leave a sour taste with me. He would have known full well that the ball did not touch strauss bat but
Complain about this postbullied the umpire into giving it. Had he not have done that, i believe the series would still be 1-0 only.
I'm a simple soul so I don't understand why there's this obsession with batting down to number 8. Seems to me that if 1-7 can't get enough runs then the bowlers won't win the match. But surely it's bowlers that bowl and control that are needed in any game of cricket, never mind an Ashes test match, so why play a bowler because - supposedly - he can bat? It's negative, defensive and it also says to numbers 1-7 that they're expected to fail - but don't worry, the bowler at number 8 will do the business for you.
So saying that we should bat down to number 8 simply that doesn't make that much sense to my mind. All it does is lend credence to the idea that the strategy for this series was not to lose a test match and that involves the tactic of "batting" down to number eight. Nothing else makes sense. If it was anything else, Panesar would have played
I really can see what Duncan Fletcher is saying and believing, honestly I do. But it seems to this simple soul that he's got it wrong.
I can forgive bad performances because it can happen. What I can't forgive is the lame excuses trotted out and the spin that it was a bad hour. It's bigger than that: the bad hour was brought about because of the over-riding need to stick to a a strategy developed weeks ago and after the first test, already proved to be wrong.
Another set of late nights for me coming up? Well, probably, but just 1 day ago it was definitely.
Complain about this postThe saddest thing about the two matches is that they showed that with the correct selections England could have defended the Ashes quite successfully. There was actually a winning team in place already which would have been better than the selected side (although Flintoff should have returned as a bowler); the honorable thing would be for the coach to depart now as his series of high profile and controversial selections have utterly failed and lost not just the series and not just a match - Flintoff (batting and captaincy), Giles, Jones and Anderson?
They indicate classic "bunker syndrome" all the more perturbing when there are perfectly good and now even part proven & in form replacements for all of them.
England have handed the Ashes back to Australia on a plate, nicely packaged with a bow on top.
I also find it almost impossible to understand England's One Day performances ? England's recent record in this area cannot have done much for their pyschological state and mental preparedness for this Series.
Complain about this postAs an Aussie it was a great spectacle. On the English side I thought Hoggard bowled well as he did in England. One of the big differences for me is that the Welsh Jones (oxymoron ?) was missing. He and Hoggard made the Australians struggle in England with the swinging ball.
I think Pieterson and Collingwood batted superbly in the first innings. Pieterson didn't have his head screwed on right for the 2nd innings but probably thought he was just going through the motions of a draw anyway.
I thought at the time that Flintoff should not have declared at 6-550. Should have taken it to 650 and hoped on a deteriating pitch for the Aussies to bat on. Australia would have been in the same situation as England then. No chance of winning and needing to bat out a draw.
Complain about this postI'm an Aussie and, strangely, I am disappointed with the second test. The last years Ashes were devastating, but wow they were exciting. It was edge of your seat stuff, and even my girlfriend became a cricket fan. What's happened? I don't want to watch a blow-out. I want to watch a repeat of last time around, with an English team that savages and causes my team to shake a little in their boots. I've read the comments from others and they all say the same thing: put Panesar, Reid and Mahmud in. To my mind, to beat the Aussies you have to make them experience a little fear, not be able to bat to No. 8. Lets not forget, Australia bats to No. 9. The current side aren't causing enough fear - It might be time to make a change...
Complain about this postEngland in the second innings looked as comfortable as a King Penguin trying to negotiate a rocky surface to escape an ensuing bull fur seal.
Quite literally warn down, England must now throw caution to the wind, and go the full Monty to try and salvage some dignity from what has so far been a pretty miserable Ashes campaign.
Complain about this postFlecter goes on about having batting down to number 8 but what use is it whe his main role is to get wickets? i'm a fan of Gilo but he is not ready to play test match cricket after 11months out and a new action.
Complain about this postOur bowling attack is poor. All our bowlers appart from Hoggard are not test match fit. Flintoff is still injured, Harrison is already homesick and a waste when he bowls as bad as he is and Anderson has been 12man for england for so long it is a crime for Flecter to put him in the side. If he wants a spinner who can bat, alex Loudon of Warwickshire can do that. ok he is young and it would be his debute but changes need to happen.
Monty should play and i would play with 2spinners, and keep Anderson in the side because really there is no one else.
English cricket has been good for the last four/three years now, I just hope it doesnt end up like the rugby, and thats the way it's going to go if we cant get the Aussies all out.
our chances of retaining the ashes have gone up in flames....but on the bright side atlest whats left of us by the time we have played the other 3 tests can be scooped up and put in a new trophy. becuase like england thats falling apart too
Complain about this postWhilst selection options at the top of the order have been somewhat limited by the departure of Trescothick, the reselection of, most notably, Jones, Giles, Harmison and Anderson merely served to reward mediocrity even in the face of defeat. It is difficult to believe that the Australians would have announced an unchanged side were the roles reversed: those responsible would have been punished and have to work extremely hard to regain their places. With the noises from players and coach implying that changes should not be made for the next test either, are we not being too bloody English?
Complain about this postAlthough it's all doom and gloom, you have to think that the Adelaide pitch was so flat and lifeless a draw had to be a no brainer, and for four days that was the case. England, though not as dynamic (no Vaughn in the field) as 2005, were still easily holding their own.
However, when you look at it, two of the leading batsmen got out foolishly on the last day - and then we had a run out to compound the problem鈥.
Strauss - though he got a home decision - was tempting fate all the way through his innings...did he not realise he was batting to save the test and keep the series alive?
Pietersen - what a player. All the talent you could wish for, and most of the time 鈥 mentally sound, but he must have a peanut for a brain. At the Gabba, when looking to save the test, and with the prospect of bad weather in the afternoon, he smashed the fourth ball to mid wicket. Why? We couldn't win....fourth ball of the day! And then here - first ball from Warne - try and play a shot he thought too risky in the first innings......good plan - save it for when the game has to be saved and let's make first ball against the spinner as well just for good measure. Warne is no way near the bowler he was, but he doesn鈥檛 have to be while he can still raise himself when it counts 鈥 knowing that our batsmen will help him out when he needs it as well.
And anyone who is run out when trying to save the game - they just need a check up from the neck up.
If it wasn't for that, it would most likely have been a stone wall draw. Geoff Boycott must have been jumping on his panama.
Agree with the other 1,300 posts saying the wheelie bin has to give way for Monty (though I do appreciate what wheelie has done for the team in the last few years). Monty and Flintoff are maybe the only two likely to trouble supreme talents like Ponting and Hussey in Perth. Hoggard's solid enough, so that's three.....Anderson hasn't done it so let's try Mahmood maybe.
Complain about this postDear Sir,
Complain about this postI don't know where to begin,inthe first two tests we play three bowlers who to say the least have had little bowling for some time.Secondly at a time when we are in the ascendency th first and second day,(the pitch still good)we decide to declare why?, Iwould have thought that we had to make sure that we didn't lose this match so as
to go to the next test with some momentum with
us.We rely on the same bowlers who didn't do it in the first test again. Iknow that duncan is a loyal coach to his playwers but sometimes you have to call a halt to that loyality and face facts
which arev that Harmy doesn't like being away from home and appears to be less than interested in cricket, just to get home asap.
Next Ashley Giles was taken off in the last innings because he couldn't contain the oz batsman, thats supposed to be his job.
Iam sorry to keep rmbling on but as we have lost the ashes now wouldn't it be better to
blood both Plunkett and Mamood to give them some experiance and also look to the future.
Yours Sincerely
J.J>BIggs.
The final straw!!!!
I have just seen that the "Selection Committee" consists of the following senior England players:
Flintoff
Strauss
Collingwood
and.....
GERAINT JONES
There is no chance of Read or Monty getting a look in. Fletcher is backed into a corner, saying he is right, Jones isn't going to offer to be dropped and knows that Monty is far harder to keep to.
It is like the weakest link, with Fletcher as Anne Robinson.
Fletcher: 鈥淎s my best mate in the selection committee you have the first pick, who do you think is the weakest link Geraint?鈥
Jones. 鈥淐hris Reed鈥
Then you get the voiceover, 鈥淐hris Reed was actually the strongest link in the last series taking 6 catches, averaging 42 and making 1 stumping - Gerraint Jones averaged 14 then, is currently averaging 16"
FLETCHER OUT NOW
And before I get accused of being a post 2005 bandwagon jumper, I having been going to watch county cricket since the age of 6 (28 years), go to at least one test every year and have played to a decent level over the years.
Complain about this postSo nice of Fletcher to drop Fred's name in as many times as he could with regards to the selection process.
If he expects us to believe that he wasn't behind the Jones, Giles & Anderson decisions then he's more stupid than I first thought.
Get Bob Woolmer in before it's too late.
Complain about this postHey jas:
'Just face it you poms: the only reason you lost is cos the Aussies are just so bloody damned good'
Sorry but I just couldn鈥檛 resist your gilt edged invitation. I can't believe no one got in before me.
Seriously though England has to cut loose some of the dead wood. Your team is not good enough to carry an out of form Harmy, a 鈥榟as he ever been in form' Anderson and a specialist No. 8 batsman and part time slow/鈥檚pin鈥 bowler.
Complain about this postAm the only one who thought we were incredibly lucky to beat the Aussies in the last Ashes series? We are not as good as them in any department and this time it really shows.
Complain about this postAs a non-English cricket fan, I find this all highly amusing. The underlying reason England lost is because they (as a country and a team) acted so ridiculously when winning the Ashes last time round. Instead of just viewing winning the Ashes as one step to something bigger they got overwhelmed with the hype that England were somehow a world-beating team. As Australia are showing England it is not enough to win one series. You have to keep doing it. Unfortunately one is unlikely to be able to do that if your team is filled with people like Flinthoff et al who can't call a spade a spade and are unable to simply say "we played crap". In short, this loss is the result of a very English disease - hype, followed by failure, followed by polite rubbish
Complain about this postTime for a rant.....We are the laughing stock of world cricket,why?
Complain about this postWe pick captains on the basis that they're popular with the other players & the crowd think has great-Remember one Mr IT Botham,he was a good captain too!(Sarcasm).
A captain isn't supposed to be popular,has supposed to lead the team & make tough,intelligent,emotive decisions-Is it any coincidence that 'Freddie' didn't drop his 'mate' Harmison when he was quite clearly not ready to bowl against the best team in the world.
Flintoff is not worthy of the title captain of England.
We pick an all rounder as captain who carries the team anyway-Name me a genuine all rounder that has been a good captain in world cricket.
We don't play the best spinner in the team because he cant bat very well & on a turning pitch too-Was Jim Laker a good batsman?
We play wicket keepers 'because they can bat a bit' & 'bring something else to the party' or some such shit.Jack Russell,a case in point,he couldn't bat either,averaging 27.2,scoring 2 test hundreds & 6 fifties.
We declared against Australia when were 1-0 down and on a pitch that was always likely to turn significantly on the last day.They haven't got any good spinners in their team have they?
English cricket will not be highly & regularly competitive improve unless young spinners and encouraged to bowl attackingly not told to just 'drop it on a length and keep the runs down' when they step up to senior level.
Apart from that we've got it spot on and got what we had coming to us injuries a side-Simon Jones was the difference last time round and still would be.
Anyone who thought we were good enough to win out there was living in cloud cuckoo land or is a fully paid up member of the ashes bandwagon.
Yours p****d off from Gloucs
Lets rap up this "Poms are no good at Sport" thing. I'd much rather see a debate on why Australians are so crap at pop and rock music. Rolf Harris? Kylie and that bloke with the mullet that sang "I am The Voice". (and I don't mean Glen McGrath). That's about it.
Complain about this postOk so you can throw things and hit things with sticks, but it takes a "Pom" to do something genuinely creative.
So cheer up England fans - on balance I know what I'd rather be.
PS - no doubt some tiresome Aussie will produce a long list of Aussie "greats". Don't bother. just stick to your tribute bands to the likes of The Beatles, THe Who, Oasis etc etc etc etc
This is probably the worst defeat I've ever know England to suffer.
But I don't see why everyone seems to be singling out Ashley Giles. True, he played like a donkey, but at the end of the day you can't blame one man for this disgusting defeat. Why's Harmison not taking any flak? At least Giles actually took a wicket, Harmison can't even manage that! The difference is that we can replace Giles with Panesar, but Harmison is irreplaceable, unfortunately.
At the end of the day, our batsmen have to take a hell of a lot of blame for losing us this test match - to bat the way they did on the final morning of the game was nothing less than a sick joke, and they should all be ashamed of themselves. But our bowlers (Hoggard the sole exception) have to look at themselves too and ask why it was they allowed Australia to get back into this game. The Aussies shouldn't have got so close to our first innings total - it was their doing so that got them back into this match.
Complain about this postDoes anyone know of a side to have lost a test match in which one of their players scored a double century? Also, has a side lost a match having declared with 6 wkts down and a score of 550?
Giles' bowling is as ineffective as Collingwood / Pietersen. Anderson has come up short too. The need to attack the Aussies from the off was evident to all except the England management. That meant Monty & Mahmood (who can also bat as effectively as Giles). Seems like a no brainer unless your name is Fletcher.
Even as a Kent supporter, I can see that Jones G is no good in a crisis whereas Read might be relied upon to dig in. All Jones' test scores of note have come when we are in the ascendancy. In spite of being Aussie, he is a bottler when the chips are down.
Let us at least try to rectify these shortcomings and make a series of it, if only for the Barmy Army. No chance of winning but a bit of pride will get the Army singing!
Complain about this postWell, after 24 hours since the worst ever test defeat (never mind getting stuffed by a innings and few hundred runs, this defeat has to class as the worst ever - surely no one could really lose from that position on that surface.....) things are being made worse by the nonsensical state of the squad! A fan can take defeat when your best players are beaten by a better team having played to their best potential AND played all out to win. Currently, our squad and set up are NOT playing our best players, NOT getting the best potential out of the players and NOT playing positively and going out to win. You win test matches by being able to take 20 wickets without conceeding too many runs not by packing the team with bits and pieces players in the hope you can avoid defeat. The nonsense being spouted by the players and coach is ridiculous.
Firstly, Collingwood said something like "we played really good cricket for 4 days and showed the team are capable of winning" - the only way to show you're capable of winning is to win, otherwise you are actually incapable of winning!
Secondly, is it really correct that Fletcher and Flintoff consult a panel of senior players including Geraint Jones on who to pick in the side - this surely is crazy!!
Thirdly, after all the talk of not repeating the mistakes of previous tours with unfit players, we find the team packed with out of form and unfit players. Giles and Anderson haven't played any cricket in over a year and both, and together with the bowling coach, openly admit they are still trying to remodel their actions - an ashes test match is not the place to do this!! Never mind the worry over Flintoffs fitness.
Fourthly, I don't really need to say anything about Panesar and Read, enough has been said. If you seriously want to win matches you should pick you best players you have in each discipline. Leaving them out is like leaving out one of the best 6 batsmen because they're not a good enough short leg fielder (an extremely important and specialised fielding position afterall). In my mind you should always play your best specialist keeper as taking 20 wickets in probably the toughest aspect of the game on many wickets. I think any bowler, especially a spin bowler, would be more confident with Read behind the stumps. A really good spin bowler needs a really good keeper to take catches and stumpings off them.
And finally, fifthly, Fletcher's talk of needing to bat to 8 and using the example of Warne. Warne only averages 16!!! If we really need to bat to 8 then go in with only 4 bowlers, 6 specialist batsmen with Flintoff at 7 and Read at 8. As things stand our 5 bowlers are incapable of taking 20 wickets so going down to 4 including Panesar would be no loss, if push came to shove we can get extra overs out of Collingwood, Bell and Pietersen.
Fletcher did a good job, however now he has become entrenched with his team of favourites. That fact alone means it's time for a change at the top for the progression of English test cricket BUT adding our woeful one day results means Fletcher must go ASAP so we can install a new coach for the World Cup.
Complain about this postI love cricket with a passion, I also love football. But how sad to see so much fickleness inflict the game of cricket when it is normally reserved for the terraces.
To see Andrew Flintoff in tears being consoled by Paul Collingwood says all there is to say about the pain felt by this team for losing to Australia the way they did.
For once, we have a team of players who ordinarily have gone beyond the capitulation so common of the 15 years before Fletcher's reign.
We could, if we wanted, make a myriad excuses for defeat - from injured players to poor decision making.
But these are neither here nor there.
We are down.
But by God we are not out!
How dare some people complain about the lack of fight and spirit among the players when they themselves have capitulated on message-boards and radio phone-ins, wallowing in their own self-pity and bemoaning the loss of their Ashes with three tests still to play.
Whinging Poms worthy of the title, the lot of them.
We do not measure a man by the scale of his fall, we measure him by the nature of his reaction.
We need win only 2 of the 3 remaining tests to retain the Ashes.
And today I want every English player to remember that the difference between success and failure is as thin as carpet fibre.
We ARE good enough to compete. We ARE good enough to win. For 80% of the match we played Australia off the park - and that despite not being 100% at our best and making occasional but costly errors (the dropping of Ponting for sure).
IF this country's sporting heroes are to show the backbone and courage we demand, then WE must show the same.
No Aussie would be on here today talking of defeat. They would not countenance it.
And until we understand this, we will forever be bound by our own disappointment.
To those going out to Australia who complain that their ticket is wasted, give it to me.
Because I was at the Oval 2 years ago to see my 18 year dream come true and I will applaud that team until the cows come home for that, Fletcher, Giles, Jones and all.
Make changes to the team, regroup, and go again.
And go knowing that not every Pom is a serial defeatist.
Sit and mope - you give up HOPE.
We'll be back. And Warne we're coming for you!
Complain about this postI love cricket with a passion, I also love football. But how sad to see so much fickleness inflict the game of cricket when it is normally reserved for the terraces.
To see Andrew Flintoff in tears being consoled by Paul Collingwood says all there is to say about the pain felt by this team for losing to Australia the way they did.
For once, we have a team of players who ordinarily have gone beyond the capitulation so common of the 15 years before Fletcher's reign.
We could, if we wanted, make a myriad excuses for defeat - from injured players to poor decision making.
But these are neither here nor there.
We are down.
But by God we are not out!
How dare some people complain about the lack of fight and spirit among the players when they themselves have capitulated on message-boards and radio phone-ins, wallowing in their own self-pity and bemoaning the loss of their Ashes with three tests still to play.
Whinging Poms worthy of the title, the lot of them.
We do not measure a man by the scale of his fall, we measure him by the nature of his reaction.
We need win only 2 of the 3 remaining tests to retain the Ashes.
And today I want every English player to remember that the difference between success and failure is as thin as carpet fibre.
We ARE good enough to compete. We ARE good enough to win. For 80% of the match we played Australia off the park - and that despite not being 100% at our best and making occasional but costly errors (the dropping of Ponting for sure).
IF this country's sporting heroes are to show the backbone and courage we demand, then WE must show the same.
No Aussie would be on here today talking of defeat. They would not countenance it.
And until we understand this, we will forever be bound by our own disappointment.
To those going out to Australia who complain that their ticket is wasted, give it to me.
Because I was at the Oval 2 years ago to see my 18 year dream come true and I will applaud that team until the cows come home for that, Fletcher, Giles, Jones and all.
Make changes to the team, regroup, and go again.
And go knowing that not every Pom is a serial defeatist.
Sit and mope - you give up HOPE.
We'll be back. And Warne we're coming for you!
Complain about this postThere is an old saying about this "there is nothing to fear but fear itself"
England [the English?], we, have lost confidence in ourselves as a country.
Things might improve if sport is ever re- introduced into the curriculum.
Roger Johnson
Complain about this postWhy make a scapegoat of Giles? Just because he hasn't taken many wickets and has scored fewer runs everyone seems to be on his back. He's batting at number 8 for a reason. He has the potential to get a big score. This may come in the next test. It's also possible that he may get a sackful of wickets too. How short our memories are!
Complain about this postLikewise, why the constant cries for Panesar? If he is picked for the Perth test he may get swatted all round the ground, who knows?
I think poor old gerraint jones has done okay behind the stumps. He did reach for a wide delivery in the second innings, but at least he was going for his shots, more than can be said for Collingwood who decided it was more important to boost his batting average by being the not-out batsman.
Lets get back vaughan into the team asap. doesnt matter if he cant bat, we need his tactical ability. freddie is not as capable as captain but that shouldnt surprise anyone really. the good thing about this england team is we have such batting depth with gilo the saviour that vaughan's return is a no brainer. P.S. Harmison and anderson deserve as much flak as gilo, its not his fault entirely we've lost 2. well, maybe a little but really duncan 'i dont pick the team alone but i was right to pick gilo' fletcher is surely the culprit for the footballing equivalent of putting 5 in midfield, sitting back and hoping to nick a goal.
Complain about this postSo Paul Collingwood doesnt want panic changes. That is interesting because we dont want panic batting. Panesar for Giles and Mahmood for Andersen doesnt sound like panic to me.
Complain about this postAustralia can be guaranteed never to bat badly through both innings of a test. If they collpase in the first, you can be sure they will dominate in the second.
On the contrary England can be guaranteed not to bat well for both innings; if they dominate in the first, they seem destined to collapse in the second.
In any sport the best players or teams are the most consistently good. This is never more true than in a 5 day game.
I've been gunning for Gilo, but I can't see any reason now to keep him over Panesar. Harmison shouldn't be dropped, especially when you examine Anderson's contribution. Read would have done no better than Jones, who might as well keep the gloves.
Complain about this postWell i have agreed with you much in your colums aggers but here you can't really get it wrong. What were they doing, i play local league cricket and i have seen a few collapses from teams that play once a week, but these guys are paid to perform and train day in day out. If i performed that badly at work then i would be sacked, something that they ought to think about. They have the chance that most of us dream of, so guys start to play like you have earned it, they have let the whole country down. I am a big England fan but this is a real blow and Fletch should make wholesale changes, they have let him down, he has proved his worth, yes he could have played Monty but that would not have stopped the crazy batsmen getting themselves out. I just wish we had the Aussie approach, as they are so professional and hungry. Our players are happy to rest on cheap runs and winning the ashes in 2005, wake up men you only become great by being as horrible and run hungry and Ponting or mean and determined as Glen McGrath all the time, not once in twenty years. So glad i did not go and watch the 2nd and 3rd test as planned.
Complain about this postToday i was clearing out my junk mail folder for my e-mail and i found a stray e-mail from stick cricket.
The headline of the e-mail was:
"It can't get any worse, can it?"
I thinking that it was about the 2nd test i opened it and read the top lines:
"It can't get any worse, can it? Sid The Hat reflects on a tale of woe for England and looks forward (in the time sense only) to the Second Test in Adelaide, starting on Friday."
how little did anyone know how bad england can be...
depressing...
Complain about this postHow can the England selectors persist with Giles who has not played first class cricket for a year until the Ashes tour, has hardly justified his selection as a better number 8 bat, dropped the crucial chance when Ponting was only on 35 in the first inns of the second Test and hardly turned a ball all match when he had the ball in his hand?
Complain about this postAnderson looks incapable of bowling a line and length and bowls too many four balls.
Bring in Monty and Mahmood.
CANT SAY I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE. WE DID BOTTLE IT, BUT EVEN AUSSIE DO THAT, I BELIEVE ADELAIDE 2003 V INDIA AFTER SCORING 556 FIRST UP. IF WE HAD THE GUMPTION TO BE POSITIVE AND PICK PANESAR FROM 1ST TEST THINGS MAY HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT. WITH HOGGARD HE SHOULD BE THE FIRST ON THE TEAM SHEET, FIT AND IN FORM. THE TEAM IS DEVELOPING SINCE ASHES WITH PANESAR AND COLLINGWOOD TOGETHER WITH HOGGARD IMPROVING AS A BOWLER. SIMON JONES AND VAUGHAN ARE BADLY MISSED THOUGH, THE LATTER MORE FOR HIS CAPTAINCY. WE NEED TO BRING BROAD THRU' AND TRY TO FIND A PROPER WICKETKEEPER BATSMAN TO LEESEN LOAD ON FLINTOFF AS ALL ROUNDER. CAN ECB NOT DO SOMETHING TO DEVELOP PROMISING BATSMEN INTO WICKETKEEPERS, USE THE SKY MONEY!! KEEP THE FAITH EVERYONE WE WILL GET THE ASHES BACK 2009 WITH SOME GOOD PLANNING, THEY ARE HOWEVER GONE FOR NOW.
Complain about this postON ANOTHER NOTE IS VAUGHAN'S APPEARANCE IN THE UPCOMING 2 DAY ENGLAND GAME A SIGN THAT FLINTOFF IS INJURED. IF SO EXTRA BATSMAN AND 4 BOWLERS (INCLUDING PANESAR) WOULD BE THE PRESCRIPTION.
panesar/giles would have made no difference in this instance
it was bad batting/poor judgement call it whatever, but it is the mental toughness that is missing and this is what makes the difference at the highest level in any sport.
england thought they had the match "saved" and so need not bother too much - they were complacent
Complain about this postaustralia are ALWAYS looking to see out the last ball no matter! they play 5 day tests - england dont see it thru
prety much teh skills levels in each side are not any different -warne is an exceptional & great bowler- but th erest of batters & bowler are equal apart from their mental approach
Besides this devastating loss.
I would just like to congradulate Paul Collingwood on a magnificent innings..
Double centuries dont come along everyday.
From an apparent journeyman to a dead set pillar of the English team. Well done Paul, as an Aussie supporter you are one of the most determined and gritty English players there is and has been!
If you dont ever do a thing again in cricket, at least you can say you scored a double century against one of Australia's mightiest sides.
Why does Jonty Rhodes always pop into my head when your name is mentioned.
Complain about this postI have read so many of your emails and would like to remind you of the problems Australia had when it went to England last year. Our 2 good bowlers McGrath and Gillespie were injured and our attack was very limited and we had to try Tait who was a beginner and really did not penetrate the English batsmen, Further, our batsmen played ordinary innings and were totally at sea with the new ball and the old ball.
Complain about this postOn the other hand, your bowlers bowled superbly with the new ball and especially with the old ball and the Aussies played like a bunch of old men. Your bowlers were at their best from the point of view of form and fitness. Your excellent bowling put our batsmen to shame.
This is an excellent series and I feel that you will do much better in the Perth, Melbourne and Sydney wickets - I certainly hope you do because I see great promise from England in these next 3 games and because the game needs it.
Cheer up fellas, it is, after all just a game (as Michael Parkinson recently stated)and being a good sportsman is the best thing about it all.
Cheers
It was truly a great match which probably won for Australia who played with a positive attitude.I am reminded of a similar match many many years ago probably in Lords when Ted Dexter was going great guns and taking his team to victory. Suddenly Richie Benaud produced a great spell of leg spin bowling using the rough patches made by bowlers and the rest was a historical win for the Aussies.
Complain about this postTo be fair to Ashley Giles, amid all these calls for his being dropped, the man has still made more runs (74) in the series thus far than Flintoff and Strauss (56 and 71) respectively. Opener cook has only scored 90 so far in four innings, and i wonder why no one has questioned his place in the current side? Instead everyone decries the inclusion of Geraint Jones, who has kept wicket very well, and Gilo, althogh i admit they should give Monty P a go. Other than that swap I say keep the side the same since any more would be a huge admission of panic and indecision in the face of the Australians.
Complain about this postBut hang on....England were champions and Shane "Has Been" Warne and the rest of Dad's Army were yesterday's news. What the...?
Some recently shy English journalists trumpeted that Mr Warne had "no idea" how to bowl to Mr Pietersen. Around the legs is the answer apparently!!
Complain about this postWhat is really worrying is that Flether's attitude is still the same after this match.
Complain about this postBatting down to 8 is the reason for Giles.
If Panesar is selected, it will be additional to Giles.
So, who drops out?
Probably an injury to somebody will help with the selection.
Maybe Flintoff will be out if he can't bowl. Based on his return from injury, he would not be in for his batting.
Otherwise I can see Anderson making way. He will not drop Harmison, just in case he has a good day!
Fletcher is CLUELESS! A wicket taking bowler is far more important than a bowler who can bat abit. EVERYBODY can see that except the england selectors and that is driving the whole nation mad. This whole BALANCE OF THE TEAM business is a load of rubbish and to EVERYBODY else this is so obvious.
I don't have much of a problem with g.jones i think he's done alright but changes must be made. I would personally swap giles and anderson for panesar and mahmood because they have had good years (although mahmood has been inconsistent) but at least he has been playing test cricket this year. I would keep harmison but thats just my personal opinion. They might be just trying to retain as much of the original team as possible.
However i have a strong feeling england will retain this team for the entire series...to their credit it's one of the good things they did last series...but....this is CLUELESS!
ps: bowling average comparison:
Panesar: 32.10
Complain about this postGiles : 40.60 ( 56.95 against australia)
When is fletcher going to get his act together and pick a cricket team that can actually win a test match!!
The thing is that we are playing so negatively like we are scared of the aussies when we should be showing them who's boss.
We need to look at the bowing department as to be honest apart form hoggard and the odd spell from a half fit flintoff we don't look like getting 20 wickets in a month of sunday's. We need to bring some enthusiasm into the bowling attack. Where is the fire and passion that was the whirlwind bowling attack of last summer???? Anderson and Giles are not test standard cricketer's and should be replaced Mahmood and Panesar. Harmison need's to be beaten with a large stick to iggnite some passion into his bowling.
On the keeping front i think Jones has done an alright job so far but i would have given the possition to Read based on his performances in the summer.
The top order batsmen are doin alright but we need to stop playing at stupid shots and getting out.
I think that Flintoff should be stripped of the captancy as he is not the right man for the job. He has enough to think about already without the added burden of captining the side. I think Strauss did a good job while he was a stand in ovr the summer.
Complain about this post2 in-form english vs 11 committed aussies... the determination i see in ponting is enough to kill the fragile Englishman on the park
how on earth do we even think of retainin' the urn.. Forget it!!
Complain about this postIs Monty Panesar going to be the Theo Walccott on this tour? The 2nd test was a shambles. Giles should go. Flintoff has shown he does not have a tactical brain.
Complain about this postWhat is the difference between a junior school cricket team and England? The school kids engage their brains before batting.
The Australians have to be congratulated on a great victory and defeat was really no more than England deserved. What a pity it is so difficult to like the Aussies though - with their arrogant posturing and gloating.
Complain about this postLet's face it, there is too much hype about Flintoff. He's a good bowler, but an unreliable batsman. I would even put him as a mediocre one. Then there is the wicketkeeper problem. England does not have a good wicketkeeper who is really a good batsman like other countries such as Australia, India and Pakistan.
Solution--even though this will never happen. 1. Drop Flintoff and bring in a sound solid batsman in his place like Joyce or someone else you can think of. 2. Compensate the bowling of Flintoff with maybe Lewis or Broad. 3. Drop Giles, Anderson and Jones and bring in Lewis, Panesar and Read.
Complain about this postIsn't one of England's major problems the way they often do the difficult part well, like getting the main opposition batsmen out, and then struggle to finish off a side? In last summer's Ashes they headed all of the last four Tests, and yet they let Australia get frighteningly close in all four of them. Yet again in Adelaide, they let the Aussie batting back in, and then couldn't close out the match on day 5. Seems that nothing changes.
Complain about this postCan someone tell me Gerraint Jones' batting average calculated over his last 10 test matches?
Complain about this postWhile you're doing it perhaps you could tot up the number of dropped catches, missed stumpings and fumbled takes in the same period. When you've done that can you tell me why he is thought to be England's number one wicketkeeper?
Frankly the worst English performance I have witnessed for years. The collapse on Day 1 brings back memories of the dark days of English cricket. It will be huge test of Fred as captain now if he can lift his men for Perth just over a week away. With the wickets at Perth, the MCG and Sydney expected to be as docile if not more as the Adelaide pitch, surely now the only option is to put Monty in the team, either for Giles or Anderson? We need more aggressive and attacking bowlers if we are to take 20 Aussie wickets, and surely there is also a case for replacing Anderson or Harmison (who is clearly hopelessly out of sorts) with Mahmood? Fletcher keeps going on about batting to 8, but whats the point when the top 6-7 do perform (as they did in the 1st innings at Adelaide). Giles has contributed 70 odd runs in 4 innings, and three wickets for over 200 runs. This needs changing now before its too late!
Complain about this postTo win a test match at this level you need what I would describe as "11 justly selected players."
I don't know if the best of "QC's" would want to aruge the justice in selecting Giles and Jones ahead of Monty and Read. Let alone argue how to be positive with such defensive selections.
This selection has sent out all the wrong messages to the squad. Now England are paying the price. Loose shots, and a loose frame of mind from the players.
Now it's an almost impossible task to win the series. Anything the selectors do will be a reactive measure. The players will have to show "Muhammad Ali" type character.
If I were commentating on a boxing match I'd say England have to win the last three rounds of this fight, not impossible, but implausible with the current team.
Come on "Freddie" be bold with the selections now, or it's never. Monty, Read and Saj will deliver everything they have, thats got to be better than delivering what you thought Giles, Jones and co might have left to deliver.
Complain about this postSo, the truth is out! The selection debacle is down to Fletcher and Flintoff, who have the final say, together with a panel of Collingwood, Strauss and Jones. I wonder if Jones voted for Read's inclusion, hmmm. The only good news for England is that neither Jones nor Giles will survive this series as test players. Neither will Flintoff's captaincy or Fletcher's coaching position.
Complain about this postwe are paying the price for awful selection decisions.
strauss
cook/m.butcher (top season, proven against AUS)
bell
collingwood
pieterson
flintoff
read (jones has not justified being slected for batting)
saj mahmood (can bat very well @ 8 and fantastic with the ball...great summer)
hoggard
harmison
panesar (32 wickets in 10 tests? said to be the greatest finger spiiner england have, but yet picked ahead of giles who hasn't played for a year)
time for duncan fletcher to go...he's done all he can with england, time for change
Complain about this postyou know bloggers, i am reading from a lot of you that you thought flintoff should not have declared when he did, and then in the same breath you say DF is negative (which he is), england are negative (which they are), its all negative. but dont you realise that his declaration was a positive move designed to get a result? why do you wonder why england is so negative when you are advocating such safe options yourself?
Complain about this postNothing will change for the next test as the
selection commitee consists of:
Fletcher, Flintoff and Collingwood -who will select their favourites Giles and Jones.
Jones: Hardly likely to select Read ahead of himself and he will not want to upset his sponser (Fletcher) by voting for Panesar
Strauss: Outnumbered. Funny how when he was captain Read, Panesar and Mahmood were playing and England were winning.
Sad to say but I think Boycott's right, 3-0 to the Aussies. England are not gutless, but the cronyism at the top makes them look it. Very frustrated and disappointed fan.
Complain about this postI agree with a lot of the comments made previously re Fletcher / Giles / Jones & Flintoff's captaincy.
GILES - nothing against the guy, but it's painful to watch because he doesn't turn it! If only he could spin the ball as much as Fletcher, Graveney and Flintoff spin their arguments re selection and performance.What's the point of including him if he occasionally gets 20 with the bat (usually when 1-7 have made 500). It's damage limitation - that's pretty negative. Also, his wickets seeem to come from mistakes from the batsmen, as opposed to Monty who gets people out with wicket-taking deliveries. Give Monty a chance at least.
FLINTOFF - I'm baffled by him being capain - I seem to remember last year when being interviewed he said something like "I can't wait for Vaughan to return". So why is it that he was given the extra burden of captaincy, when Strauss clearly has a captain's tactical brain and a much better record.
There's no Q re Freddie being an inspiration - as an all-rounder, not as captain! Strauss should be made captain so that Fred can concentrate on doing what he does best.
FLETCHER - although I don't agree with his selections, he did contribute enormously to the 2005 ashes. I wish he'd just speak the truth and hold his hands up and then make some common sense changes, like Panesar for Giles.
There have also been some comments on here along the lines of "we just have to accept the fact that we've lost the ashes". That's the exact negativity that was displayed on the pitch on the 5th day! Let's make some common sense changes and believe that we can win - that's what we want isn't it? If we don't believe, we ain't gonna win! As Shane Warne said last year on Sports Personality of the Year, "Never Give up". What would happen if we were to win at Perth with a few changes to the side - I think it would be game on.
Complain about this postWell ! England lost plot by scoring runs at such a slow rate. 129 in 73 overs... I can understand that they wanted to spend as much time as possible, but it would have been great if they scored 60-80 more runs.
Each run scored by england would have been equivalent to 2 runs for australians, and that would have ensured England not losing the game.
Ofcourse, England is not playing positive, otherwise, they should have played Monty Panesar instead of Ashley Giles. They got decent score in first inning, all they needed to bowl aussies out quickly and they needed Monty for that. When that did not happen, they should have scored runs at fast run rate in their 2nd inning to set a target for aussies and may be they could have done something what australia did. But that required positive thinking. Now, this result will force them to go more in to negative thinking, even after scoring 551/6 in first inning they lost, that means it was not enough. A negative team will think that, positive team will think it as lost opportunity. I hope England does that otherwise, 5-0 is on the cards...
Complain about this postEngland's negative approach started by including Giles instead of Panesar. Whatever extra Giles might score would easily have been saved by Panesar not giving away as many runs. Also Panesar would have taken wickets (the wicket was good for spinners). Maybe Panesar should change his name to Smith so at least the selectors are not put off by an unusual name.
Complain about this postAggers speaks sense as ever. Media attempts to point the finger at the selection of Giles, Flintoff's captaincy or even the declaration of England's first innings, just don't add up. England lost this five day match in the space of an hour's vapid batting, and the Aussies' mental dominance of England is the real difference between them. The triumph of the Ashes over here was the way we refused to succumb to Aussie 'never give in bullishness' from day one. We won almost every session on every single day in that series, and yet it was still a close 2-1 finish with the result in doubt until late on the final day of the final match. It would be annoying to lose the Ashes to a side that aren't as good as us because they've faced us down. But then, this depleted England side have still to prove they can perform on this tour and in Aussie conditions.
Complain about this postIf the England cricket team carry on like this - they
Complain about this postshould expect to be paraded around Trafalagar Square on a open top bus and let every disappointed fan pelt them with eggs and rotten tomatos !
No comment BUY
drop
Fletcher
Giles
Anderson
Cook or Strauss
Jones
Bring in
The Pope
Complain about this postPanesar
Botham
Panesar
Rooney
Panesar
Joyce
Panesar
Read
No comment BUY
drop
Fletcher
Giles
Anderson
Cook or Strauss
Jones
Bring in
The Pope
Complain about this postPanesar
Botham
Panesar
Rooney
Panesar
Joyce
Panesar
Read
Regardless of what I and everyone else has previously said about Giles, I think it is harsh to mention the dropped catch. As crucial as it was, it could have happened to anyone. Remember Warne at the Brit Oval 2005? That is certainly not a reason to put a case for dropping someone. Pietersen dropped all 6 of his catches last series.
Pick the better bowler in this case Panesar but don't mention drop catches.
Cheers
Complain about this postPoor team selection cost this result.
Complain about this postHow come they included Giles and Gones instead of Monty and Reed?
England is desperately missing both Treschotic and Vaughan.
Its good to see someone else snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, I thought India had a tight lock on that, specially in recent years!!
Complain about this postAlso, Fletcher is starting to sound like Pres Bush and Rummy. Get rid of the old geezer!! Consider this defeat a mid-term election.
wilko at 1374
yes - australia against india in adelaide a few years when ponting scored a double ton
Complain about this postDavid Whyte's post (1379) is the first I've seen that made the point I had in mind: Flintoff's decision to declare at 551 and give England a fighting chance to win the match was exactly the sort of positive thinking that many bloggers say we lack. If it was his decision alone I applaud him for the courage to take the Aussie's on.
By day 5 the team no longer believed they could win, and as the wickets fell the prospect of actually losing destroyed their morale completely.
This was the crux for me, loss of nerve, quite apart from selection arguments. Probably we do need a stronger bowling attack to really have a chance of bringing the Aussie's to their knees. But with a bit more self belief even the same squad could have won this match IMO.
And it would make it much easier to regain that self belief if they felt their supporters back home believed in them too.
Complain about this postThe problem had little to do with Warne. The three main reasons are this:
1. stupid selection of Flintoff as captain as opposed to more astute Strauss
2. stubborn approach to selection especially not picking Panesar. Had he played Aus would not have got past 450 and there would never have been an issue. Play Mahmood for Anderson and he would have scored Giles runs and done anderson's job or better with the ball
3.thinking that 550 odd was enough with such a rubbish attack. They declared when they were smashing AUS at about 8 an over. They should have rubbed it in at that point and got to 750 plus by one and a bit hours into the second day. That way they would have got Aus playing on a more wearing pitch and at most needed to score a quick 100 or so in their second innings from around tea on the fourth day to set up the possibility of bowling AUS out for less that 350 on the last day.
The rest is less relevant - its always hard to bat against warne on the last day but you are turning the man into more than what he was. Take out the bad decision against Strauss all you had was Giles who should have padded up, Pieterson who should have got his pad in the way and a tailender - i.e Hoggard
Complain about this postIf perths a spinners wicket why dont they put giles and panersar in. when england toured last time in 1986-87 they two good spinners john embury and phil edmonds why dont they do a copy of the same 20 years ago.
Complain about this postI have lived here for 42 years and never witnessed a more embarassing defeat. It's true comparing Giles to Warne is chalk and cheese and the dropped catch was expensive, but the difference is once we needed to rely on the batting to save the game we were in trouble. With Bell's run out that ment we needed to establish a partnership and some discipline batting, unfortunately without getting his eye in Pietersen showed his immaturity exposing flintoff who clearly was underprepared for this series. The result unfortunately has unfortunately has taken the interest away from the series... Get rid of Fletcher !
Complain about this postWhy do the English fans insist on paying out their side? Everyone loves a winner, so why can't you guys give the Aussies credit? They are one of the greatest sides EVER! Let's face it, when the Australians are playing well they are almost impossible to beat!
Complain about this postI think it is time to move forward and not dwell anymore on this defeat. England had a bad couple of sessions and unfortunately it came at the wrong time. Even the mighty aussies fell from winning postions twice against India in recent years.
Complain about this postFOUR CHANGES NEEDED FOR PERTH HARMISONANDERSO,GILES AND JONES OUT. MAHMOOD PLUNKETT PANASEAR
AND READ IN PLUS FLETCHERS POSITION AS COACH SHOULD BE SERIOUSLY LOOKED AT IN VIEW OF HIS SELECTION POLICY AND THE IMPRESSSION HE GIVES OF A LAID BACK APPROACH .THE GUY FOR THE JOB IS MIKE ( no nonsense ) WATKINSON
Complain about this postI think the problem is very simple indeed. Flintoff is not a good captain and never has been. He should be in the team, but as a player and not captain. Furthermore, picking Giles was a mistake and Fletcher should be axed for his ridiculous team selection. Picking players who are on form, exceptionally talented and can do the business for their country is what he should look for, instead of prima donnas, favourties and has beens.
Complain about this postI don't think Aggers question "why a group of successful cricketers...... continues to be intimidated by the Australians" is answered by options of team selection. I think the question is one of team spirit.
Listen to Bernardinho, Brazil's most successful coach - he trains the men's volleyball team (two Volley World Cups, Olympic Gold, has won 17 out of 21 competitions since he took over). His comments about team spirit:
1. A spirit of brotherly love flows through our group.... this love is manifest by each one humbly seeking the success of his colleague.
2. In our team each depends on the other. We have to accept that. There are no privileges. More is demanded of the best because they have more to give.
3. The only way to support the pressure for results is to be a true team. Not individuals, but each one supporting the other......
4. The great team is not that which doesn't lose, but that which picks itself up again.
This thinking about the formation of team spirit is applied to a group double the size of the team that will actually play. Plus very intensive technical training, physical preparation, leading-edge technological support. Unremitting workouts.
Any lessons here for English cricket?
I don't have the Ashes on TV here, but did all Giles's team-mates show him their support after he dropped that catch?
Complain about this postThe word ignominy comes to mind when but will panesar really make a difference now given that there is at least seven players in the England team who have played appallingly so far? It is time for a change in manager at the end of this series. Clearly the Aussies have something that currently we Brits lack.
Complain about this postengland need help , it was a mistake to ask flntoff to captiain , straus was defiately better as showed in the tour with pakistant , the selectors were a disgrace letting in giles , without any match practice was crazy , monty showed over all his matches that he is one of a handful of players that can turn a match around , the stats speak for them selves
Complain about this postthat was the dumbest innings by a team i have ever seen! did it ever occur to england that they only had to score 200 in their 2nd innings to force a draw! instead they went out to occupy the crease for a day & block their way to a draw. collingwood was the main offender! yes, he didnt get out but he put more pressure on his teamates by choosing to not use his bat for 3 hours! hopeless.
Complain about this postWhat a negative second innings by England. Too many times have I seen them batting just for time instead of taking the fight to the other team. I would rather see them lose trying to win, than block like this. We need a positive coach and captain. Even Steve Waugh as coach, could you ever see him backing away from a win.
Complain about this postAshley Giles did not play his way back into the side. He was fast-tracked in as one of Fletcher's Favourites, ahead of the in-form Monty Panesar. You only need to look at England's disastrous rugby team to see what happens when a coach resorts to old favourites ahead of form and sensible squad building. Andy Robinson's painful demise is what awaits Duncan Fletcher and the England cricket team unless they play form players who are match fit. This means playing a potential match-winner like Monty Panesar ahead of Giles, the stock bowler. "Playing it safe" was never going to be an Ashes-winning strategy, as the first 2 tests have proven. It is time to be a little bolder now; have faith in the batsmen to score runs and the bowlers to take wickets; play the exciting Panesar instead of the dull Giles.
Complain about this postaggers mate.
Complain about this postnow is the time to battle, concentrate and perform.
talk is very heap.
now lads, after all, this is the ashes.fight!
ENGLAND HAVE GIVEN NEGATIVE SIGNALS BY NOT PICKING MONTY AND PICKING HALF FIT BOWLERS LIKE Giles and Anderson.
Egland have thrown it away.
You have to match the aussies in every session
Complain about this postto beat them.
This has been simmering in me for a while now, but I have to vent my spleen after listening to the cock and bull being uttered by Flintoff and Fletcher after such a dark day.
Complain about this postIt struck me last summer during the Ashes how the Aussie players and staff came across so much better in interviews than the England team. They were honest and straightforward, and they actually made sense. They weren't afraid to say what they thought. The England team and those surround them end up sounding like politicians, not admitting anything, or saying anything at all really, after a while you can predict what their answer to a question will be. All in the name of "positive Spin".
This is irritating for the listener at best, but after the debace at Adelaide it was infuriating. Come on England - if you mess up this badly do us all a favour and just admit it - and be thankful Paxman's not doing the post mortem interviews.
All this stuff about "we need Vaughan", isn't helping. Cricket is won and lost above the shoulders. The Aussies know this and have a real winning attitude (which is why the loss of the Ashes burnt so badly). England could have won the last match with the XI they'd picked, but they dropped the bundle. Sack the team psychologist.
Complain about this postWhy on earth was Flintoff selected as captain for the tour?
Obviously Vaughan has the tactical nous and all round cricket brain to successfully captain a decent cricket team.
I also think that Strauss would make an ideal and more of a like-for-like replacement.
Unfortunately Freddie's approach is unsubtle and at times predictable. This not only detracts from the team but also his own strengths - batting, bowling and slip fielding
Complain about this postI actually flet sorry for one person and that was Freddy, Australia's favourite Englishman. He looked so forlorn and lost after the humilation.
As an Aussie I think it has been a shame that England has let us walk all over them like throw rugs. Even Australians are wondering when/if Monty Read and Mahmood will play.
As the famous 70's ditty goes c'mon Aussie c'mon; how bout c'mon Pommy C'mon?!
C'mon Poms how about some competition?
From a disgruntled Aussie fan.
Complain about this postOK, it was pretty humiliating to lose such a sure-fire draw, but there are still 3 tests to go, and by winning in Perth, the English team would go some way to make amends for their inconsistencies so far.
I think everyone should stop pointing the finger of blame, and get behind the team to rally them for the next 3 tests. This kind of negativity does no one any favours, and adds to the pressure.
Go on lads, pick yourselves up and get on with the job at hand.
And play Monty and Sajid next time, for gods sake!
Complain about this postTo be honest, I'm still in utter shock at this defeat, but then again maybe I shouldn't be this is England we're talking about!!!
Why oh why oh why do England (both Football and Ctricket) insist on giving players a "farewell tour"? all throughout my short life this has happened players have been picked to play when quite clearly their time is up and things have moved on and should have been left that way. The excuses given for not picking both Read and Panesar were and still are UTTER RUBBISH, Read is a far better keeper and is in my books also a more competant batsmen, he has one poor one day series as did so many other players and then found himself dropped for doing nothing wrong, to say that Jones is more capable with the bat was just a poor excuse to get Jones back into the side and well he's not as I expected done anything special with the bat and hasn't really shown any composure, as for Giles well enough said, his dropped catch proved to be crucial in this test, yes Monty's fielding leaves a lot to be desired but he makes up for the rumd he might cost the team by virtue of the fact that unlike Giles, hew poses a real threat to the opposition and can take wickets and if I'm not mistaken he's also capable of scoring a few runs also.
Fletchers too proud or should I say arrogant to admit he got things wrong.
I feel sorry in a way for Anderson but the fact is that he's just not cut out for Test cricket.
The loss of Simon Jones through injury was always going to be massive, he scares the Aussies, I only hope he can get and stay fit for more than a few months, although i sadly suspect we might have seen a short glimpse of what could have been...
Complain about this postBest Test match Ever!!!!!!!!!!
AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE.........
Complain about this postWhat realy puzzeled me about Englands batting,after Strauss was dismissed.Was the total lack of interest in scoring runs.Did they realy believe they could bat for the entire day?There are serious problems within this English team.The batting is very suspect, after the first five batsmen the tail is exposed.the bowling is perhaps the weakest of all the major cricketing teams.it would defy logic to believe this English team is capable of taking 20 Australia wickets in a match.The team management and selectors have some serious questions to answer,they ((the selectors )have had 12 months to prepare for this Ashes tour and after two test its all over.
Complain about this postWhat realy puzzeled me about Englands batting,after Strauss was dismissed.Was the total lack of interest in scoring runs.Did they realy believe they could bat for the entire day?There are serious problems within this English team.The batting is very suspect, after the first five batsmen the tail is exposed.the bowling is perhaps the weakest of all the major cricketing teams.it would defy logic to believe this English team is capable of taking 20 Australia wickets in a match.The team management and selectors have some serious questions to answer,they ((the selectors )have had 12 months to prepare for this Ashes tour and after two test its all over.
Complain about this postAs an ex-pat pom living in Perth Australia it may surprise you to know that far from going around gloating about the turn of events in Adelaide the Australians are steadily going about their business and thinking about the next test in Perth and how they can clinch the Ashes.
The Aussies were as surprised to win the Adelaide test as the Brits were to lose it.
It is a time for planning and confidence in our cricket not panic.
The Perth wicket has not traditionally favoured S.Warne so he may not be as big a factor for the Aussies as we may think.It has usually been a seamers wicket.
Most of the Aussie pitches tend to be flat theses days (more as a result of making test matches last 5 days ) to please the bean counters financially.
Lets have some self confidence and if Australia want the Ashes so badly lets make them win it rather than handing to them on a plate.
I can tell you that if England win 1 test here the Austrlaians will not know what hit them and will start to doubt themselves.
Complain about this postCome on England show some fight. This series is the most hyped Ashes ever but did you even send out your first grade team?
Seriously, get behind your team. They came back from the first test admirably, at least for the first four days.
Like the aussie team, never give in. The test is not over until the end of the fifth day, and the series is not over until the end of the fifth test.
We dont want it to be a 5 - 0 whitewash. We certainly want the ashes back, but put up a fight and fight every inch of the way! You earnt the ashes last year, and deserved them too. OK you made us fight for this second test, but we should have fought for a draw not the win.
PS: Brian from blog 1403 and others say we are 'arrogant, posturing and gloating'. Most likely. If enough people say it, it must be true. Perhaps England do not have a winning culture and have not been able to back up a significant win with another (1966, RWC, possibly the Ashes). Without consistent success you cant get into a habit of expecting to win and loudly proclaiming it when you do.
Keep the faith, greatness does not last forever, look at your empire.
It can return, you just have to believe in it, believe in your team, like we believe in ours, and they will start believing in themselves.
Complain about this postEngland have LOST the Ashes.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for England not to lose the next 3 Tests.
Duncan Fletcher has gone totally MAD.
Complain about this postEngland beat Austrlia for the Ashes because of the rules of the game during wet wather. Most of the tests were rained out and the Australians were not allowed to express themselves. The first and the second tests in Australia is a good example of what both teams can do with no interuptions from the weather.
God bless you Aussie.
Complain about this postAlthough born in England I came out here as a boy, became an Australian and have supported Australia ever since. As a long time cricket follower I remember some of the bad times in Australian cricket when the poms soundly beat us in the 70's and early 80's. After holding the Ashes for so long it was very painful to lose them to England in 2005 but it should be plainly (and painfully) obvious to all Englishmen that Australia is on a mission. This country lives and breathes sport, so I assure you that Ricky Ponting and his men will not sleep easy until they have ground the English into the dust at Perth, Melbourne and Sydney. The difference between the Aussies and the Poms is that the Aussies have a 'never-say-die' attitude and make the best out of even the most dire situation. Don't get me wrong, this series isn't over but it is going to take a great deal of belief for England to salvage something from here. You need to get rid of Fletcher, put in a decent wicket keeper and get rid of Harmison, Anderson and Giles. Oh, by the way, if you think that it's going to get easier in a few years when half the team retires you can think again. Australia has enough young cricketing talent waiting in the wings to fill a 2nd XI that would beat most teams in the world.
Complain about this postCompletely agreed England threw it away, but I think the seeds were sown well before then - England have to take 20 wickets and the bowling attack is simply not up to the task.
I don't want to hark back to the bothan and willis era, but when they defended the low target there were no easy singles every run was pressured, what I witnessed on the final day was quite simply batting practice - no pressure on the singles - absolutely dire - When you want to take wickets you gamble and pressure - how can Flintoff even think about guarding the boundary with such a low total - Anyway back to the root issue 20 wickets a match. The answer is simple drop giles - pick Monty - If they want a 2nd spinner they have pieterson who seems to turn the ball more than giles anyway.
Complain about this postIndeed, that confidence went missing after several days of being there, and when it was there, it seems to have been misguided- the declaration always had that feeling of not being enough. There's something numbed and even stupid present - a committee of players selecting other players, and one of tne of these players, Geraint Jones,having had his own postion be in jeapordy before. And yet well before a week before the first Test it's announced Jones would be the 'keeper.
Complain about this postThe epithet of Botham's - Dad's Army applied to the Aussies- may be altered to be Dud's Army for the English. Even in all of this, the English team has the potential to become a great team, but it needs revising of its focus, it needs to toughen up again. That resolve, present in 2005, has been replaced by awful platitudes of re-grouping, words which sink in the stomach and just as quickly pass out.
I was at the Adelaide Oval. Perhaps my eyes deceived me but I'm sure I saw a bit of push and shove between Flintoff and Hoggard towards the end of the match, during the final over if I remember correctly. Some playful joshing or a disagreement? Did anyone else see this?
Complain about this posti have had to put up with English skiting over their ashes win 15 months ago and the never ending put down of the Aussie team by those pb's like Boycott etc.
Complain about this postI have enjoyed the humilitation of the English team in the second and first test and only hope it happens three more times.
I wonder if you are the bloke nicknamed Aggers who rabbitted on about the"dont pee over this line" warning in the Adelaide uranials(mens):this was informative but not very entertaining.Incidentally were you tempted to, pee over the line?
In response to the comments of David 239.
Complain about this postDavid you want your boys to go join you in Afghanistan to see how to achieve SUCCESS in difficult circumstances. How many years have UK and other forces been in Afghanistan and as far as I can determine no SUCCESS at all, haven't even taken one wicket. Talk about British grit or should that be "git" in your case? I am an ignorant Antipodean so what would I know? If I was so brave as your good self I'd jump on a plane, go to Perth and help the lads out, you sound like a spinner to me and perhaps your "floss tosser" would scare the Aussies into submission! You have given up on the lads, mate there are 3 more test to play yet,so don't you think your offer is a little to premature! I think those above you have made much worse choices than Mr Fletcher will ever make. So if you have any resolve at all I'd be telling my superiors what a balls up Afghanistan is amongst other places nearby. I know you must be keen to win back "the ashes" but if the boys did what you propose some of them may be sent home in body bags, turned into ashes and sit on a mantlepiece some where. Are you that desperate mate?
Will Sinclair.
I have only one thing to say - WHAT A DISGRACE!
How can you not pick your inform players and then expect to win. Forget the past and the winning team of 2005, pick the players that are performing Fletcher.
The sooner Vaughan is fit, it will be a great day for England. Flintoff is a great bowler but not captain material. Thinks more like a fat bowler and does not take all things into perspective.
Panesar - Best finger spinner in the world as quoted by Willis, so why is he not playing?
Get rid of Fletcher!!
Complain about this postDear Jonathan,
I am still shocked how this can happen? Won the toss, ellected to bat, scored 551 a big total to win a match, declared for 6 wickets, 3rd double century in the Australian soil, 310 partneship, and only one day to defend with 9 wickets in hand .... lost the test in the afternoon? disaster, I can not find any other word to discribe this.
Now everyone is looking for excuses & try and blame someone as usual. Harmissio has got wickets, Giles drop ponting, Ian Bell's silly run-out, K P' sweep shot, Filintoff's poor shot selection, Giles duck, Jones poor batting ..... the worst defeat in the Ashes history
Now you are kindly refering to a "psychologist". It is really making me to think We are run out of excuses. Come on England could have defended the Ashes by selecting the best team from the biggining, if so,at least could have defended by saying we have selected the best available players, but things didn't work unfortunately. Today, this could be too late to defend the Ashes, but not the pride.
Fletcher went for defence in the first 2 tests, but unfortunately now he is defending his decision to select Giles ahead of Panasar, Jones ahead of Reed.
Now there are lot of media focus on the Panasar issue, but this could put more pressure on Panasar even if he is going to play the next 3 tests. Wil that make any success.
I still believe Panasar, Reed and Harmission's form are vital & all other batsmen must contribute and play an important part as a team, I emphasise as one team to bounce back to produce a better result
Complain about this postBRING ON PERTH, I'M LOVIN LIFE
Complain about this postView of a club cricketer.....I doubt whether Giles would be taking regular 5 fers in our league, west of england premier...Panesar with his flight and guile definately would... enough said.
Complain about this postis duncan fletcher really an aussie? lets not pick monty, persist with average players and now even rule out vaughan's participation in the series altogether. give me vaughan on one leg any day . drop freddie down the order as he's not performing with the bat anyway. the disappointing thing for me is that fletcher doesnt seem to want to pick his strongest side, he'd rather rely on favourites and the memories of former glories. by that token if harmison doesnt shape up in perth he should never play test cricket again. its a disgrace to see someone playing for england who makes it seem like a minor inconvenience. if he doesnt like touring send him home. sort it out.
Complain about this postit wont be long before big dunc and the fake sheikh meet - so similar is the path that fletcher is on. sven just picked his favourites and fletcher is doing the same. trying to simply come out unscathed in a 5 match series by picking mediocre players who may occasionally get some runs against match winners is a nonsense. giles has never been good enough, read must have done something to fletcher - there can be no other reason. As for Harmison -if some one looked at his figures on decent batting tracks and against good batters he would be playing county as best. OK so he ruffed up the aussie at Lords on an overcast day with a new ball - Mcgrath took 5-for in the blazing heat and they won.
Complain about this postI've never felt compelled to write in to one of these boards before after a poor performance, after all its fair to say that the watcher certainly can't do better than the players, and that sport can be swings and roundabouts. Similarly I don't think its fair to overly criticise players that are trying their best.
in this instance I am disappointed beyond belief at the way our players conducted themselves during this test, I really have to wonder what kind of psycological advice they are receiving from the "expert".
For many years now I have watched the England team bowl at other teams without any real leadership or guidance or sense of urgency. With the Australians you rarely see a lack of urgency in their bowling. As an example think back to the last cricket world cup. With the aussies down to two wickets left, we just plodded up and bowled and let them acquire the last 80 runs or so, it defies belief.
I think it is fair to say that having Flintoff as captain is unlikely to work as he is a flair player, he should hand the reigns over to someone else and concentrate on his own performance. Its also just an opinion, but he seems to be lacking the intelligence needed to make strategic decisions.
The persistance of Giles in the team, with a better player waiting in the wings is just astounding. You could understand this for the first test whereby its unknown territory, but coming from a position where we need to win, why pick a player that cannot win matches? Giles will never win a test match with the bat or with the ball.
For me personally the most disappointing part of this test was the cowardice with which the team played, letting down their country in the process. From the moment it became apparent that we couldn't hit a ball, it just got worse and worse. Yes there was a brilliant bowling performance, but the manner in which we capitulated showed a complete lack of positivity or spirit.
These players should remind themselves who they are playing for. They should remind themselves what it means to play for England. They should not make excuses in the slightest, I hope when their heads touch the pillow they realise that this defeat is probably one of the most shameful that has ever been seen in the history of test cricket, and that their lack of guile and spirit contributed to this. They have embarrassed England, let down the fans, let down those that stayed awake to watch the game, let down those that wanted to watch good cricket, and those that have paid to do so.
We need players that from the moment they walk down the steps and there feet touch the grass, they step into the zone. You have to feel the adrenaline, and be ready for a fight, you tell yourself you are representing your country, your people, yourself, your family, and that you will do your utmost to win. Why do our players not show this ? We occassionally see this sporadically with batsmen, but rarely when approaching the finish line, the lack of belief and urgency means that watching England bowl at a reasonable opposition becomes an interminably dull process.
I'm sorry to overly criticise, but i've reserved opinion for many years, and everyone is entitled to an opinion.
Complain about this postMaybe the problem here is not only having mistakenly made Flintoff captain instead of Strauss for this series (the heart ruling the head), but also holding this constant lingering hope for over a year now that Vaughan will return at any moment by magic. Psychologically this leaves the team unsettled & in a constant state of limbo waiting for Vaughan to make his comeback.
Complain about this postLet's move on, assign a permanent captain and make the decision again if and when Vaughan is fit and ready to return to Test cricket. This is no good for the team's confidence when they should be building on what they have not waiting for what may or may not return.
With Englands collapse, it's easy to foget the performance of Australia. Ponting is in Bradman like form and captaining brilliantly, Warne has recovered from injury to not just be the best spin, but possibly the best bowler in the world, add Langer, Hussey, Gilchrist, McGrath and Lee and it's one of the best cricket teams the world has ever seen. No team in the world could have beaten them, England did well to stay in the contect for four days.
Complain about this postI believe that Flintoff's inexperience in Australian conditions was the problem. His ridiculous declaration when on 551 and only 6 batsmen down was an unbelievably naive move. I know it's easy in retrospect to criticise - but at the time I knew that by not batting Australia out-of-the-game, would give them a sniff of victory.
Complain about this postWhen one examines Australia's first inning at Brisbane - they batted on until all-out and more than 650 on the board. What made Flintoff think he could go one better?
Other points raised about team selections are valid. Giles should NOT be playing (he's unfit and ineffective) Panesar should have been in the team so should Mahmood and Read.
Fletcher and the obeying Flintoff are putting favourites in at the behest of form.
If they don't get it right in Perth (and if Flintoff loses the toss, we may as well turn the TV off and forget it) - then Australia will again dominate and I can foresee them doing a 5-0 whitewash. How utterly embarassing.
Having sat through the last three days of the Adelaide Test, especially Tuesday, showed that England continue to have a negative approach to retaining the Ashes. To bowl Giles for over after over showed that Fletcher is frightened of giving runs away, is uninterested in taking wickets and relies on a No 8 batsman of no pedigree.
Complain about this postThe on field managment is woeful - obviously orchestrated from off the oval by Fletcher. No-one knew where to field, and bowling changes were signalled from the stand.
The critical point in the match came with the decision not to try to score any runs on the last England session, which put enormous pressure on to save wickets. If England had scored at 3-3.5 an over in a positive manner, they would have either forced a draw or made Australia go for a more rapid run chase, with higher risk and the possibility of a win.
This England team has no understanding of the winning psychological attitude and never will. Please remain tuned after the test series for the one day matches if you wish to see just how abject the state of cricket is in England. The likelyhood of them taking a point off NZ, let alone Australia is minimal.
Paul Collingwood, whilst showing the grit and determination required to win the ashes, advises everybody that it is not time to panic following the debacle of last weekend. I have only just calmed my anger and only now feel i can express myself without falling foul of the sensors! The idea that England should not panic should have been conveyed during the match and not after it. Maybe they need an invitation to bolt the door also....
Complain about this postI sat through the 5 days at Adelaide and I can think of no one who I spoke to after the end of day 4 who could have possibly anticipated the outcome after day 5. I spoke to an Aussie taxi driver on Wednesday afternoon who said that Australia were 25/1 to win going in to Day 5. I suspect even the Aussie fans would have thought those pretty meagre odds from the typically stingy bookies. To say it was embarassing would be something of an understatement and not something I would EVER want to go through again. The Aussies quite rightly were taunting us during the latter part of day 5 and the 'Barmy Army' disappeared without trace (would could blame them).
Complain about this postAccording to Andrew Miller's report on Panesar's interview ahead of the Lilac Hill match, Panesar explained: "The exact reason [for my omission] is my batting. If we lose a quick couple of wickets in the first session, we need a good balance in the batting line-up because maybe we could be skittled for 150."
Yeah, we wouldn't want that to happen, would we?
Seriously, though, the man's a spinner. Could the ironic undertow have been intentional?
Complain about this postI doubt selection changes will make much difference as the core of the team are now mentally destroyed. Less than a fortnight until I fly to Melbourne and, just for a brief moment on Tuesday, I wished I wasn't going and had bought a new car, or repaired my roof, with the money instead.
I'm sure I'll get over it, though.
Just one thought, however. Almost every other post has berated England's selection and commented about the need to take 20 wickets. Seems fair enough on the face of it but obviously it's not as simple as that, as Australia have just won despite only taking 16...
Complain about this postEngland won the first 7 sessions of the match, at the end of the 7th session Giles dropped Ponting and Australia won the next 8 sessions. Small margins seperate success and failure at the elite level and this blow not only let Australia off the hook (they would have been 79-4) it gave Australia the chance the needed to get back into the match. Once parity on first innings was nearly achieved there was only going to be one winner and with momentum behind them Australia showed their greatest characteristic - ruthlessness and England folded under the pressure.
Fletcher has to take the brunt of the critism as he has led a negative campaign by his selections.How on earth can we take 20 wickets with Giles and Anderson? Fred is not fit and Harmison is too precious.
The whole winter has been ruined.
Complain about this postI agree with the team selections so far, or at least that there was very little in them. I now believe that Giles and Anderson have not proved their worth and that Panesar and Mahmood (unless we go with two spinners) should be inserted. There is not much to choose between Read and Jones but I have more faith in Jones' batting abilities and more importantly, in his energy and 'noise level' behind the stumps. He is a competitor in a way that Read has shown himself not to be and that is a very important quality in a wicketkeeper. Again, Jones may not be the best keeper but I've not seen enough evidence of that myself to warrant a change in my outlook.
Jonathan, do you really think Warne bowled that well? England, for reasons lost in mysticism, were the perpetrators of their own downfall (with the help of a dodgy decision against Strauss) - yes England got a few last time round! Just on that note, Koertzen pulled two pretty poor lbw decisions out of the bag (Harmison - how tall is he and it hit him above the knee roll, Anderson - right arm wide round the wicket hit him on middle/middle and leg) and I've always believed the guy is a liability. I recall his explanation for coming off for bad light in South Africa in 2004 and I've seen him swayed by an appeal on more than one occasion. I'd have put money on him giving Pietersen out caught behind when Bucknor, rightly, didn't. While we're on the topic of umpires, I was nervy when I saw Bowden and the aforementioned Koertzen named as umpires for the series. All umpires make bad decisions but it's the manner and nature of them which is the key. I could not believe (although I seemed to be the only one) that Pietersen was given out in the first innings in Brisbane lbw. I have faith in Bucknor, although he gave Strauss out, but I have little faith in Bowden (cf. Plato views of those who would be rulers) and Koertzen (IQ of less than 100, surely, and makes little sense).
Back on point. I was surprised ( or was I) by the way England allowed Australia to dominate them in their last innings and I think this is what drove Pietersen to sweep so early. He was trying to regain the initiative. I put Jones dismissal down to similar. What England did was to revert to type, to old habits - 30 of 28 overs! Where was the urgency of the previous evening. Yes, Collingwood batted the innings out but what good did it do to bat for so long and score so slowly. If in doubt, be positive and by the by this doesn't mean play rash shots, just display a positive attitude, be commanding, be dominant. Possibly easier said than done but I feel personally let down by England's approach and poor planning. Surely, before each session a game plan is discussed and decided upon and then executed and within that, there are contingencies. Maybe it's just down to one or two players missing who do have the ability that a few of their replacements do not to handle the pressure. There seems to have been a lack of focus so far, a fear of losing and look what's happened.
Cheers
Complain about this postTeam changes, then Aggers? Personally, I think England have three main problems: the openers, the 6/7 batting and the bowling. The openers haven't got anything in 4 innings between them, and it would certainly suprise the Aussies if Cook and Strauss were dropped. Replacing Jones with Read could add a few more runs, and taking Anderson out for Panesar would add to their attack. England could pley 2 spinners and 2 seamers, with Flintoff and Pieterson supplying an additional capacity if needed, with Ed Joyce or Robert Key opening. Let's have a bit of a change! If it were football, every sub would be on, everyone pushing forward going all out!
Complain about this postWas surprised to hear Fletcher sayin that he wont decide any changes for the 3rd test without consulting the rest of the team!!!!! What is this guys job title & description??
Just imagine:
DF: Right guys you decide who you want to play?
Its just like being in the local park or school grounds and you pick your mates & the rich kids to play with you. What a joke.
Complain about this postI've just got back from Adelaide, and still can hardly believe what I saw. I had bad misgivings when I arrived at the ground an hour before the start of the match and saw Anderson marking out his run and no Panesar. But for the next 4 days we at least held our own, and largely put Brisbane behind us. A winning draw would have set up the series but the 5th day was too awful for words. A scoring rate of even 2 an over would probably have been enough.
A few morals Duncan:
1. If the top 6 can't make runs, it's no good relying on numbers 7 and 8.
2. You need to take 20 wickets to win (yes, I know Australia only took 16 this time) so you must pick your most attacking spinner.
3. If you're so worried about having Hoggard at no 8, then play Mahmoud - he's quicker than Anderson too.
I hope we can recover some pride and give the thousands who have booked for Melbourne and Sydney to cheer about, but with this selection I'm not hopeful.
Complain about this postWhy is Fletcher obsessed with batting to number 8? Why do we have to put up with Giles pathetic bowling, england have the world's best finger spinner in their disposal according to many yet he doesn't get a chance to play? I am sri lankan, and it would be like leaving out Muri or Australia leaving out Shane Warne, these guys do better when they play more! Panesar has proven he is an excellent bowler and if england are worried about an eigth batsmen, then they should be looking further up the batting order in seeing what is going wrong, i always thought 1-6 are batsmen, 7 is an all rounder, 8-11 are bowlers, or maybe i am mistaken???
Complain about this postYou're right - Kevin Shine will have his work cut out. But there are more fundamental reasons for Adelaide debacle:-
1) Wrong captain - the selectors stayed with Freddie but history showed that appointing a gung-ho guy who happens to be the team's best player (ie Botham) is asking too much of one man. Should have stuck with Strauss
2) Bad team selection - before even a ball was bowled at Brisbane we handed the initiative to the Aussies by going for Giles instead of monty. Not because Panesar can do it all hiself but it revealed a cautious approach that says :"we're more scared of losing than winning". Jones, an obvious Fletcher favourite, over Read - the Aussies recognise he's our best gloveman (& as good a bat on recent evidence)
3) Injuries - if Aussies were without Ponting & Bret Lee they would be less of a team
4) Bad coaching (or deaf players) - Harmison is missing Try Cooley, Anderson still too inconcsistent. All the good bowling has been shared by Hoggy & Freddie - very few wickets from others. It doesn't matter if Gilo makes 40 runs if leaks runs & can't get people out. Many batters play rash shots insteads of building an innings - like Colly has done
What does the future hold in this series - probably a 4-1 defeat - the Aussies will not blow a 2-0 lead. So England should be looking to build for the future - be bolder in selection, dump Fletcher at end of series and also pat Freddie on the back and bring back Strauss (unless Vaughan is still crocked). Remember with our best possible team playing for whole series we only just beat the Aussies at home. So plan to do that again & make tough decisions now. 1966 didn't stop Ramsey getting the push, so why is Fletcher so precious?
Complain about this postI have just read the comments being made here and can only hope that the players read them. All have enjoyed adulation and significant commercial advantage with the Ashes victory in 05. However, they have begun, from the coach to the number 11, to believe their own press. Selections of players (average performers at best in many cases) that have not played for months on end beggars belief. A batsman who is so arrogant he honestly believes he cannot be touched by the best bowler the planet has ever seen. A coach that believes in saftey first and not playing in his own words the "best finger spinner in the world". These are traits and issues that as an Englishman in Oz and no doubt all those folk who travelled here to wacth the games are just too difficult to swallow. The worst is my 2 English sons of 9 and 12 here living in oz who wear England football, Lions and England rugby shirts even in todays world of those sadly performing teams in front of their australian classmates have today announced they never want to play for the english cricket team. Shame on you.
Complain about this postA couple of comments from an Aussie supporter.
Congratulations to Collingwood.
He has actually batted so well that the Aussies were giving him a single to get him off strike.
I was almost sad for Flintoff trying to single-handedly save the match with his bowling in the last session. Every time he bowled I was worried that he was going to get a wicket, and they had trouble scoring off him.
The game was lost in the terrible batting of the last day, not by the bowlers.
I hope they select Panesar for the next game. I'd love to see his bowling, having heard so much about it.
Complain about this postA lot of people have commented about the declaration not being enough. Radio 5live interviewed Mike Gatting shortly after the end of the test and asked him if he thought the total had been enough. His response was that he would have declared at about the same total.
At the start of play on the final day with only one man down, England would have been quite happy with the runs on the board and were well placed to put on a good second innings total.
For all of you quibbling about Giles dropping one catch, think of the number of catches spilled by Panesar and Pietersen over the last year. But the n the team moved on, regrouped and recovered.
Complain about this postWhat honours will these laughably "sporting heroes" receive on their return
Complain about this postI don't know what your opinion really is behind the shambolic yet on so familiar England collapse at Adelaide, but I feel really let down by the ECB over the past three years or so. Beginning with a really bizarre ticket allocation for the ashes series twenty months or so ago, where the allocation allowed a black market for tickets that priced out genuine fans, we now on the back of the most successful summer for years have produced inflated prices for tickets at test and one day matches, yet on the back of this Duncan Fletcher allows the finest bowling coach in Troy Cooley to leave for the Aussies. What do we get in return? I will tell you:
Complain about this post1. A coach, selector and all round coach who does not know how to take twenty wickets in a series, never mind one test:
2. Without Vaughan a skipper in Flintoff who is the world's most talented player but with a useless tactical team brain.
3. A coach who in Monty claims we have a great finger spinner then chooses Giles over him and Jones over Read because of batting ability. When Read was gritting his teeth last summer was Fletcher counting sheep?
4. A group of bowlers who when they run out of form seem to have no guidance.
5. Surely anyone with a brain setting the aussies 170 or so would have packed the offside field and slips bowled 12-18 inches outside off stump and let them go an fetch the ball. A few loose shots and slips if we had them 40 for 4 we had a chance to win the game. If they moved over we had the option of the inswinger to leg stump. For once we had the option that if they wanted to win they would have to play away from their bodies but oh no not the good old English bowlers!
What do you think of these points
Thanks fellas
Kind regards
Alan
i think its about time England realise that Giles is not worth his place. the few runs he gets is not enough to compensate for missing the likes of panesar who can get wickets. England need wickets to beat the Australians, and there is currently a genuine lack of any wicket takers.
Complain about this postActions
Replace Feltcher with Vaughan - even if he can bat, would he get his place back, but he is a proven tactician and motivator - get him in the dressing room
Ban certain shotes pre a 50 score (Strauss hook, Peiterson sweep etc)
Ban newspaper column writing whilst playing for your country - conflict of interest
Instruct mild celebrations for centuries - a 100 is seen as job done. Simply not good enough. That is why Aussies go onto to big hundreds.
Axe Giles - inoxuous
Axe Anderson -doesn't look at the stumps on delivery - no wonder his direction is dreadful
Last chances for Harmison and Jones - they need to know that one more failure will mean being dropped
Keep Flintoff as captain until end of tour then replace with Strauss. Few bowlers make great captains.
Complain about this postAmongst the hue and cry for Monty has anyone took the trouble to check the stats which show Giles as our 4th best batsman and 3rd best bowler ! thats how much trouble we are in blaming poor old Giles is not going to change things enough.
Complain about this postGuys!!--so much self abuse?
England has known for over 15 months that they had to go to Australia -to defend the Ashes!
Did you think that the Aussies would lie down?
Us Aussies have been fuming!-------our performance in England last year was -----below par.
England had --------" the bit between the teeth!"---a mental thing?
To me,every touring member -----represents -England.
Remember-----------England holds the Ashes!
Ricky Ponting ---------has had a lot of " Flack" over these last months!!-----he is in a constant -mind set!!
Shane Warne!!-----------is in the same mind set!
Aussies-------LOVE--------beating England!!
It is a -convict thing!-------to beat the people that sent us to this -paradise!
Guys!-all you need is a drawn series!
Your team is -------------not BAD!!
Collingwood-------disturbs us!!-his grit and dour attitude ----is a BIG worry!
Oh!!-you say!---------who will take 20 wickets?
You have lost the ability to ----WIN!!
Don't go through the motions!-try something -------NEW!!
Your guys are better than that!
Team unity and resolve ------a great thing to have.
Remember-------------Ian Botham in 1981!
Ashes tests are -------hard and demanding?
I rate England ----------highly!
Regroup!!
HobieT------------( Aussie!)
Complain about this postQuote: "Why did we agree to so few warm-up matches and matches between tests? The Aussies have not allowed us to get acclimatised . "
I believe you (England) agreed to such a compressed schedule because of the World Cup coming up in March. It's really no great conspiracy.
Complain about this postQuote: "Why did we agree to so few warm-up matches and matches between tests? The Aussies have not allowed us to get acclimatised . "
I believe you (England) agreed to such a compressed schedule because of the World Cup coming up in March. It's really no great conspiracy.
Complain about this postMy team for next friday
1.Andrew Strauss
Complain about this post2.Alastair Cook
3.Paul Collingwood
4.Ian Bell
5.Kevin Pieterson
6.Andrew Flintoff
7.Chris Read
8.Sajid Mahmood
9.Mathew Hoggard
10.Steve Harmison
11.Monty Panesar
I repect duncan fletcher for his role in the revival of England thesepast 7 years. I respect Ashley Giles for his contributions to the team with bat and ball as a support player.
However allow me to saythat even when we declared at 551 for 6 I said that we simply dont deserve to win forr having picked Giles instead of monty.
Monty is a wicket taking spinner. Giles is a defensive slow bowler who can bat a bit.
I am not a cricketer so i am always cautious about slagging off professionals who (ought to...) no more more about the game that I do.
however allow me to destroy big Duncs defence of picking gilo.
1. "We want to bat to 8": Fine if you can do that with the best players available if not then what for? If the top six are scoring runs who cares what happens at 8. if not then gilos 20 odd are hardly going to make the difference out here.
2. "Balance of the team" We are 2 nil down!! The balance wqs disturbed despite that fact they we could have scored as many runs as we liked in the first innings, we only lost becasue we couldnt bowl them out, monty may not have taken 9 for 24 on that pitch but he may have nicked out 1 or 2 which could have given us and extra hundred run lead > game over
3 "you only have to see that giles helped score well over 500 and shane warne helped the Austailians near our first innings total" :
Utter Bollards. We had 491 on the board when gilo came to the wicket. in the context of the game his 27 were irrelevant. Much more relevant was the duck in the second innings when 27 would have mattered much more. More pertinently Shane warne found it easy to kick giles away form outside leg stump > monty may well have got rid of him.
4." Even shane warne struggled to take wickets on this pitch. Which is why Giles struggled"
Wrong! warne struggled on day 1 and 2 whiole england were piling up the runs. Giles struggled on day 3and 4. At the end of day 4 when england started their 2nd innings warne looked like he was bowling hand grenades. Monty on day 1 and 2 would have been a different proposition to giles. Even more so and day 5 were Australia to have be chasing a target.
5. General point. We need to win matches. you need to take 20 wickets to do this. You can score 800 but wont win if you dont bowl the other side out twice. Monty helps do this.
Monty is a proven wicket taker. The wickets he takes of decent batsmen (eg sachin tendulkar, mohammed yousuf) will save many more runs than the 20 odd we can expect gilo to make at number 8.
6.If you really shudder to see the hogster coming in at 8 then bring in mahmood who can bat as well as giles in for the out of form and unfit anderson.
what does anybody think of my analysis?
Complain about this postToo depressed to write anything serious and so to the tune of 'Don't cry for me, Argentina'
It won't be easy, you'll think it strange
When we try to explain how we feel
That we鈥檝e lost all our hope after all that you've done
You won't believe us
But all we can see is a team we once knew
Under Vaughnie -- so many good times
Now at sixes and sevens with you
We鈥檙e in trouble now, Freddy Flintoff,
The truth is the Ashes look gone.
All through those glad days
That mad existence
The Oval triumph
Just seems so distant
It鈥檚 such a failure, it鈥檚 such a shame
Though we know that you wanted to win
And it seemed to the world that was all you desired.
Victory鈥檚 an illusion.
Harmies not the solution he promised to be,
The answer was Monty all the time.
No sixes or sevens with him.
We鈥檙e in trouble now, Freddy Flintoff,
The truth is the Ashes look gone.
We鈥檝e had such sad days
The Adelaide madness
There was such promise
Now there鈥檚 just distress.
Have we said too much?
There's nothing more we can think of to say to you.
But all you have to do is look at us to know
That every word is true
We鈥檙e in trouble now, Freddy Flintoff鈥
Complain about this postThe Poms lost because Harmison got a bad decision? Oh for God sakes. Grow up.
Complain about this postDisappointing doesn't begin to cover it but I just want to pick up on the issue of team psychology. It seems to me it's not just the team that need to be more positive / optimistic / aggressive. I love the way the Aussies always look on the up-side: if they're behind they focus on ways in which they can turn it around and win. Conversely our media (and I definitely include Agnew & Boycott in this) instinctively talk about avoiding the follow-on or holding on for a draw etc.. Also, Boycott seems fixated on the idea that we should play defensively when holding on for a draw. This is exactly the sort of negative attidue that we rightly condemn in our players. Only by taking on the Aussies do you relieve the pressure. Shane Warne & McGrath are lethal if you let them impose themselves. They've been shown to wobble when you go after them.
Complain about this postAfter this bad defeat I have this awful feeling that Australia will now go win the series 5-0!!
Could someone explain to me why 'wheelie-bin' Giles is in the side? That dreadful missed catch will go down in Ashes history. It was such a basic error!! On Adelaide's small boundaries Giles was fielding 10 metres in, when he should have been right on the boundary line.
Complain about this postwe went into the ashes 1st test with these issues and problems
Giles - has been injured for a long period and has not played a competitive match for 12 months then expect to be confident and take wickets and get his runs at 8 ?? this casts even more doubt over Fletchers decision !!
G Jones - dropped I think mayer in the warm-up who went on to get a ton, a good omen should not have been picked. only scored 1 50 against aust but is classed as a better batter than reid ??
Anderson - another casualty to injury not played a big game re modelling his action ? How we expect to be consistent and take wickets.
S Jones - Not on tour was instrumental in getting key wickets with the old ball last summer badly missed.
Harmison - Hates touring and after the 1st test was clearly not confident.
Vaughan - g8 player in aussie conditions and a very good tactician and would have probably picked panesar.
Panesar - has a wicket taking delivery which u need in these matches. eg taking ricky ponting at crucial times would have been a turning point.
i rest my case sadly the coach and captain who both pick the team have made errors whichyou can il afford in Aus. with the injuries too we really had very little chance in winning i was hoping for a draw and we would retain the ashes.
NOT TO BE IM AFRAID
ps - if we do win it would be the biggest upset in cricket history. i would gladly eat my words.
Complain about this postCome on everybody - where's that great British resolve? I m Scot and I m rooting for England against the Aussies. Stop talking like the England of old and go out there and fight. If it were the Aussies they d be spitting mad and up for it. Still three to go - we only need 2 to bring back the urn. Yes - some changes are needed, nothing to lose. Lets be bold.
Complain about this post