Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú

Given the way the selectors summarily dismissed Hoggy and Harmy surely its now time for Bell and Collingwood to take a break. Colly at least is a grafter but is way out of form, Bell has maybe flattered to decive for too long and when you compare to other no 5's in top teams like Hussey etc he falls well short

Time to give Bopara and Shah a full home series. Bopara can bowl a bit too

Even though Ambrose has done well in this innings, I fail to understand why Chris Read is continually overlooked.
It seems to me that he watches men like Jones, Prior and Ambrose fill their boots against weak opposition and then, when they fail against sterner opposition, he is brought in when the pressure is really on. Then when he 'just' makes a few scores of 25 - 35 he is dropped for the next flavour of the month who scores a ton against Bangladesh and gets a run.
Read is undoubtedly the best wicketkeeper in the country and a good enough batsman to average about 30 in test cricket - that's enough for me.
Any views Aggers?

I have to guess everyone is speechless after that shambolic display by the usual suspects, otherwise this blog would be teeming .........

How can two batsmen so off form, be representing their country?

It took too long to rest Strauss, and low and behold, he is batting back to his best.

The England team is there for the best players in the Country. Its not there to help players get into form.

Bell and Collingwood need to be dropped. If they get runs for their County then they should be back in the frame.

How come Cricket is run so differently from every other sport?

The central contract system should be there for the benefit of the England team. And with so much talk recently about the Kolpak players stemming English talent coming through, its largely irrelevant if the England team can only select from about 13 players. We are not using the talent out there, so we can hardly chirp on about Kolpack players.

Good call JoeShmoe99 but I think Rob Key and Bopara are ideal to step up to the plate right now.

Key has a test match double hundred to his name already and Bopara looks a class act and as mentioned could be an extra bowler.


The South Africa series is a real yardstick in terms of where we are, they will give us a real test in every department.

Btw I have read a few times people on here (normally our friends from the sub continent) saying KP is overrated .......today he played a blinder and is very much one of the top batsmen in the world FACT.

The truth is that Collingwood ought to have been rested for this game. He is mentally strong, but woefully out of touch.

Bell rarely looks like getting hard runs and someone must get hold of him and find out what makes him fail to tick when he is both needed.

I would drop both for the South Africa series, and probably Anderson too.

Strauss, Cook, Vaughan, Pietersen, Carberry, Bopara, Ambrose, Flintoff, Broad, Sidebottom, Panesar

#6 .. as a Hants fan I can tell you Carberry is nowhere near test quality

Shah would my my bet ... i think he's been hard done by as he's never done much wrong and always looked like he has the temperament

Im also starting to look at Moores too, the whole team seems to have got softer under him and im not sure where any batting coaching is actually taking place !

Bopara and particularly Shah deserve a decent run in the side before we look at anyone else in the middle order. Lest we forget Shah made 88 on debut, well over two years ago, and has played one test since.

I would tell Collingwood and Bell they are being rested for SA, just as Strauss was rested for SL, and tell Bopara and Shah they have the full series to prove themselves. If they fail, and Collingwood and Bell rediscover their form in county cricket, then they can come back; if not look for other options.

We cannot continue with a situation where this top six which (with the odd exception) has been so mediocre for the last year and a half can apparently retain their places by default. Time to shake things up, just as Vaughan shook up the bowling in NZ.

Although it was disappointing that Cook, Bell and Collingwood all continued their poor form, I'd have taken 273 - 8 at the start of the day. A first innings of average of 214 at Trent Bridge so far and you could see there was a lot of movement for the bowlers, even without much cloud cover. Reckon if we can get 300+ Broady and Sidey should help bowl them out for below 200.

I think the 2nd innings is going to be last chance saloon for Bell and Collingwood before the SA series.

I was about to write that I didnt think Bopara was ready for test cricket quite yet despite his stuning innings yesterday, but then went to check his County Championship (div 2) average to find he's over 85 through 4 games this season. Think he should definately be given a chance against the Saffers, especially if he has a good ODI series vs NZ. A stint back in CC to find some form would not hurt Colly or Bell although a good ODI series would help them retain their places for the SA series.

Agree with your "Only criticism" of Ambrose Aggers. Somebody who is so "one shotted" is unfit for Test cricket. All the better sides will have worked this out and he will be shot less. NZ have just fed him in this game.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Having been put in, England probably have the upper hand, and if Broad can knock a few runs tomorrow then a score over 300 could be imposing, especially if Monty gives a repeat of the Old Trafford performance.

If the selectors haven't already thought about it, then now is definately the time to consider replacements for Bell, and especially Collingwood. Rob Key is an interesting option, given that he already has test experience. Ravi Bopara had a disastrous series in Sri Lanka, but depending on how he does in the ODIs if he plays, maybe give him another chance at no 6. Other options could be James Hildreth, or even Ramprakash, who could be the ideal replacement for the SA series.

Well done to Tim Ambrose today. I was one of those who wrote him off after the Old Trafford test, but his vital innings today has at least shown his willingness to knuckle down. Let's hope it continues. (However, I still stand by the claim that England were too hasty in dropping Chris Read last summer)

I've been someone to tell the selectors to keep faith with people. In the case of Bell and Collingwood, both need to be dropped. Collingwood looks like Struass did last year, somewhat mentally tired. He won't get much rest with the ODI series coming up and I suspect he will not feature against South Africa in the Test matches. He's one of the few who make it into the side for all three formats of the game. That's a lot of cricket and he then has the added responsibility of the one-day captaincy. Give him the Test series against South Africa to recuperate.

Bell is a puzzle. He has the shots but it is hard to believe that he has the mentality. Many have pointed out that he has scored runs at times when the pressure has been off. KP has often delivered when it's mattered and Collingwood has done too. You can't say the same of Ian Bell. I have a feeling he is much like Damian Martyn, a graceful player who returned as a better player after a period of international exclusion. Both have a similar style of batting, a lot of grace and timing.

All plaudits to Kevin Pietersen today. Some people have called for him to be dropped. I presume those people are now receiving medical treatment. A lot of patience on a rather dead pitch that didn't seem to suit his style of batting. However, the player of the day goes to Ian O'Brien. Good reward for some good bowling and effort and deserves some wickets as Cricinfo have seen fit to grace his profile page with a truly bizarre picture.

Incidentally, to replace Bell and Collingwood, I would look for Bopara as a straight replacement for Collingwood and finally give Owais Shah a chance in place of Bell.

I'm fed up of listening to people defending Bell and Collingwood. Yes, they have been (moderately) good servants of England in the past. People look at their averages and they seem reasonable players. But you have to remember that almost all good sides in test match cricket have batsmen with 40+ batting averages. Brad Hodge has an average greater than 55 (albeit after 6 matches) and still can't hold down a place in their side.

What are their weaknesses? Interestingly, they are strikingly different. Bell looks great but cannot score runs, significant runs, when the chips are down. Collingwood has done this in the past, but is a technically limited player who relies on his eye and strength to score. He's currently out of form and injured so has neither.

The bottom line is this. It's all very well to play in a side when things are going easily. But in cricket, this is hardly ever the case, even for the best sides. The best sides are those characterised by their flexibility, their ability to come back and counter attack when things aren't going well. Pietersen and Ambrose's partnership today highlighted this. We need more players who can do this if we're going to challenge the likes of India and Australia. And frankly, there has been little/no evidence that Bell can do this, at any point during his test career so far (he's a good ODI player though). Now it may turn out that either or both of these players suddenly turn it around in the second innings and make big scores from a difficult position, but the odds are against it. Let's see them scoring big runs again in first class cricket (from tricky situations) before they are picked again.

As for Ambrose being one-shotted, this may be a tactic to get the bowlers to pitch it up too much. As such, it is somewhat risky but might disrupt the bowler's length. He's still young and will surely develop his shot repetoire.

My ideal XI vs SA (disregarding injuries etc):

Cook
Key
Strauss
Vaughan
Pietersen
Ambrose
Broad
Flintoff
Sidebottom
Anderson/Hoggard/Jones S
Panesar

lingos (#15) Nice to see someone throwing Hildy into the mix but I dont think he's quite consistent enough yet to merit a place. Has gone off the boil in the last few weeks, and didnt have a great tour with the Lions to SL over the winter. The guy has tons of talent though and is definatley one for the future.

Am pleased for Ambrose. With the likes of Gilly and McCullum people forget that a wk first role is behind the stumps. As long as he continues to keep well and at least contibutes with the bat I think people should stop questioning his place. The revolving door of England wks has to stop somewhere.

Agreeing with Andy (#16) re Bell. When he was in NZ he would play one or two exquisite MMC Coaching Manual type shots, only to then do something really silly.

Individually the day obviously goes to KP and Ambrose, but I have to admit to eating humble pie re O'Brien. I truly thought Southee should have been back in the NZ team at O'Brien's expense, but he bowled pretty well.

Martin and Vettori? No idea what was going on with them today...usually they can bowl on a sixpence, but today they were all over the shop. Maybe the nice weather put them off? ;o) I do know this though...I can't recall either of them bowling badly two days in a row.

Now just hoping I've not put the mockers on them!

I think England at the moment are scared to drop players like Bell and Collingwood and are just using the 40+ average as an excuse to keep them in the team. The selectors, in my opinion, are also being a bit blind. The New Zealand bowlers are no quicker than any other county seamer, so it wouldn't be too much of a step up for the in-form county batsmen. Matt Prior, for example, should play in the side as just as batsman at 5, with Bopara at 6. THey have averaged 77 and 82 respectively in the County Championship this season, while Bell and Collingwood have been sub-30 this calendar year. Come on selectors: take a chance!

It's nice to hear people defending Rob Key but, even with a Test double century to his name he averages barely 30 in Tests. It's not as if he hasn't had chances: after all, he has played 15 Tests and to average 31.0 after 15 Tests is not a Test standard record (even in the 1980s our main batsmen averaged more). More than half of all his Test runs have come in just 3 of his 26 innings.

Bopara, yes.
Shah, yes (although his form this season has not been sensational).
Rob key needs to do something sensational first to put himself back in the frame.

Right now, if Paul Collingwood were to be rested, you would want Ravi Bopara as the younger player, the form player and the one who you would turn to to supplement the attack if Jimmy Anderson turns his ankle on the first morning and can't bowl his full quota of overs.

I do think Collingwood may have run his course for a while, at least as far as tests are concerned. Actually really you look at his record and beyond a couple of key innings, what is there? A good bloke and a decent hard working player who gets all he can out of his talent. But I kind of think England need more dependable runs in the minddle of the order, especially with a tail as long as England have. Times like this I miss Graham Thorpe!

I have been defending the selection of Colly and Bell for some time, but now they have to be put out of their misery and allowed to go and find some confiedence and form - just like Strauss was.

A while ago I posted that one ton does not make a comeback, particularly a scratchy one. I got basted from all sides. I think MPV proved me right this morning. What did Strauss do wrong when he was Captain (other than not being MPV)?
Petersen on the other hand looked back to his bullying, swaggering best. Comparison with Viv is a bit rich mind!

Against SA we will need to score more, expecially with a 4 man attack. Who to put in? Difficult not to pick Chris Reid as he is scoring heavily, but for goodness sake don't give him the gloves!

The stick Ian Bell is getting is outrageous. Yes he's having a bad run at the moment (although he does average 50 in 2008!!!) but form is temporary and class is permanent. He's been messed about in the batting order to suit the needs of other players, especially the skipper. The team England are building now must be aimed at winning the Ashes back next year and Ian Bell should be a major factor in that. I would keep this team for the current summer and the winter in the hope that by the time the Ashes does come around we'll be firing on all cylinders and full of confidence:

Cook
Strauss
Vaughan
KP
Bell
Shah/Bopara
Flintoff
Ambrose/Prior
Broad
Sidebottom
Panesar

Bell now averages 36 in 2008. That includes 1 not out 50 when there was no pressure on the team as they'd lost the game, and 1 hundred where Strauss had already scored a hundred, and the pressure was also off.

I don't think the stick Bell is getting is outrageous! He has so far proved to be a fair weather player of the worst kind. He can't get into double figures when the heat is on, and his fielding is average. Sure he slaps it around on flat tracks against mediocre bowling when the pressure is off but what use is that. I agree with the majority of the above comments except that I would drop Bell in preference to Colly (at least he is a fantastic fielder and can bowl) although in reality they both should be given time out.

Sadly Bopara (even given recent heroics for Essex) has thus far looked out of his depth on the test stage. I know the essex mafia in Gooch and Hussein have been singing his praises but intense test match cricket vs the Proteas is very different to a sunny afternoon on the flat benign Chelmsford pitch against county trundlers. All that glitters is not gold.

PS Beefy made a decent comment in commentary on SKY this afternoon in that bowlers who don't perform get jettisoned PDQ whereas the batsmen have more lives than any cat. Time to call the vet for Bell and Colly then!

As much as I am a big fan of Colly, I think it is time for him to go. Ian Bell too. Time to give others a chance. I also agree with what some posters have said already: what did Chris Read do wrong?

Is it a coincidence that it took a South African and an Australian t dig us out of the mire today. Perhaps we should pick more foreigners.

Posters typing about Chris Read should remember that Test cricket is more than just about ability. Read is doubtlessly a talented cricketer, the best keeper at county level and a handy batsman. So why has he found it so difficult to break into the Test team for any length of time?

He's been around the team a few times - perhaps it's an attitude problem, or that he doesn't react well under pressure. Either way, there's something about him that the selectors don't like, which is why they habitually go for players like Ambrose, Prior and Jones.

Pietersen was superb today, world class. Very disappointed by the rest of our supposed batsmen. I think it might be time for a Bopara, Key or Shah recall. Not Ramprakash, he's not even that high in the averages this year - they may as well bring back Graeme Hick.

It's Intresting how people are suggesting freddy should walk back into the team even though he can't buy a run in county cricket never mind international cricket im not suggesting flintoff should never play again just that he should get some runs first collingwood and bell both need time out of test cricket like strauss to try and rediscover some form id also like to know what jimmy anderson has done wrong for so many people to suggest he should be dropped

The bad news is that there was another middle-order collapse, something almost synonymous with English test batting over a long, long time. The good news is that the batsmen responsible, Bell and Collingwood, have proved their value over a long period and the only thing wrong with them is that they are out of form. But that is only a temporary phenomenon. They have been allowed to work their way over that playing for England and there must be some big scores just around the corner.

On a more serious note, as I mentioned before, it didn't seem to me to be particularly worthy of celebration the fact that the England team was unchanged for five tests, something not seen for over 120 years. There are probably very good reasons for that and they are not just injuries. I think we have wasted a golden opportunity to blood or re-blood different "new" batsmen. Surely Key, Bopara and Shah can do no worse than the current crop and, much as I would like to see James Hildreth given a chance, as is he from my county, he has had a very poor patch after a brilliant beginning to the season. His time will come.

Tomorrow we will see if the England bowlers can match the sterling efforts of the NZ youngsters. They didn't get everything right but they must be very pleased with their efforts today. The pitch was slow and there was some movement of the ball, but nothing that could explain the spineless display of most of the batsmen, excepting, of course, KP and Ambrose. Strauss gave away his wicket again and as you said, Aggers, he can't be very pleased about that. He was on his way to a big score, which is what we should expect from ALL of the batsmen against this opposition.

All is not lost, but I hope another victory "against the odds" will not mask the shortcomings of our batsmen.

There are much sterner tasks ahead.

Its funny hardly any comments praising Pietersen's innings. He played brilliantly today but he also shared in big partnership something ou rbatsmen have to do. Ambrose as well deserves alot of praise and has rewarded the selectors for having faith. Collingwood concerns me. If he is injured he should be rested. Bell should get some batting in with his county.

The one problem with dropping Collingwood, and this isn't my personal problem, it is the selectors problem, is that Collingwood is the captain at the shorter form of the game.

Therrefore, like Vaughan before him, he has probably been earmarked as the next captain.

I would bring in Bopara for Collingwood, and for Bell either Shah or Key, probably would go for Key as he has been one of the top county players in recent years.

As for bowling, Anderson is too inconsistent, give Hoggard time to regain fitness and then put him back in the side, he was rashly dropped imo in New Zealand, and even though it worked in the short term i feel he has been our premier bowler since that great team of the 2005 Ashes, and we need his experience in our otherwise fairly rookie bowling attack.

Give Cook more of a chance though, he has proven a lot since given his chance, and is still very young.

My Prefered Team:

Strauss
Cook
Vaughan (c)
Pietersen
Key
Bopara
Read/Ambrose
Broad
Hoggard
Sidebottom
Panesar

Also finally praise for KP's innings. Time after time he stars in our innings, and I think 4 is the right place for him, come in after a decent platform, and even if the players around him fall limply, he can carry on and put us in a good position.

Why does everyone want Chris Read back?
Even Aggers would shudder to see any wicketkeeper chop and change!
Chris Read is Nottinghamshire Captain - hence the reason why he isnt chosen.
You wouldnt pull the captain out of any county,..not fair.
I think Aggers would back my view - keep the current team....same team for 5 tests since 1885.
Even Australia cant say that!!!!!!

"The fact is that Bell and Collingwood were put under pressure today, and failed...."

It never ceases to amaze me that aggers is supremely brilliant at pointing out the opposite! Love it!

Legend

pointing out the obvious rather!

Some questions...

1. Why do a lot of people think that Chris Read is a test quality wicker keeper?
2. Why is this football-style 'must be world class in a few games' attitude appearing in cricket?
3. Why, seeing as Rob Key has done nothing over the last four years to solve his technical flaw outside off stump, do people keep putting him forward for England?
4. Why Aggers, is arriving in the middle against New Zealand pressure for Bell or Collingwood. The pressure is from the media not the opposition (yes I answered that one myself).
5. Why do people question KP? Our best talent... who care what his motivations are.
6. Why so much pressure on Broad? (pssst rotate him with Shreck, Davies, Onions and Mahmood and give them all some experience without the expectations).
7. How can Jimmy Anderson recover from publicly admitting he felt bad for hitting Flynn in the mouth? A day out with Pat Patterson is called for or stop bowling bouncers.

Unless Bell or Collingwood does something spectacular in the second innings, at least one of them must go.

Bell, in particular, irritates me - he scores lots of runs when the match is won already by others and none at all when they are needed.

Collingwood, at least, has shown the occasional ability to turn a match; so, if one goes, and one stays on the grounds of continuity/stability, please let it be Bell who goes.

Some of you miss the point about Ambrose. He's not one shotted but being short, bowlers find it difficult to get their length right to him. Balls that would be a good length to many batsmen, Ambrose will have no problem ricking back onto the back foot and cutting or pulling. Then if the bowler bowls a bit fuller he will get onto the front foot. He's also very level headed and has bottle, which is sadly lacking amongst some of our other players. The Read argument has long gone. He might be the best keeper and Prior might be the best batsman but the combination of the two Ambrose is streets ahead of anyone else.

I find it amazing to see all the England fans on here complaining, when you should be praising Pietersen and Ambrose on a remarkable partnership. Collingwood and Bell will come right, and South Africa aren't that good anyway. Cheer up! I wouldn't be too concerned about the rejigged NZ batting order -- McCullum at 3 and a confident but still very young Taylor at 4 -- it makes one wonder about the 'retirements' and unavailability of so many of our top order batsmen -- Fleming, Astle, Vincent, McMillan, Richardson, Styris -- none of whom are very old. Be grateful you still have everyone to choose from!!

right where has this hating for colly and bell come from? fair enough the've hit a bit of rough patch but before today you can't tell me that pieterson was really playing his best cricket ever! why doesn't someone just come out and say that very few on the batsmen in the England team are on form? it seems like colly and bell are being used as scapegoats for the recent run of bad overall scores for the england team. fair enough they aren't the best batsmen to watch but you can't tell me that when pietersen walks out to bat you think he's going to get a big score everytime - he normally looks shaky and rushed but yet he never gets anyone saying 'he's got to go out of the team'. after all it was only a couple of years ago he was the best one day batsmen and one of the top test batsmen in the world but he lost form for a couple of years and was kept in the team without question. also bell and colly offer something different into the team - colly can bowl a bit and for bell, whoever is willing stand that close to a batsmen when he is being bowled at offers something to the team. Over the past couple of years they have both offered more to the team than pietersen has and so why not give them a bit more time to find a bit of form?

I think this England team has a great team ethic. After all, only a few months ago it was Vaughan, Strauss and Harmi who "had to go". Thankfully, in two of those cases their class has seen them recover. Last week it was Ambrose, who has answered his critics admirably, and Bell and Colly for who "had to go". I agree, both look low on confidence (but I have never understood how dropping someone would improve that), but both are proven test players; maybe not World XI, but very good players. Even Pietersen and Monty have had calls for their heads and, while both are overrated in my opinion, both are also the best at what they do that England has. A poor start against the Saffers, and I'm sure Cook "will have to go". Get a grip people. And Key or Carberry, don't make me laugh!

It was a good innings from KP; it came at the right time. Any innings played from 80 odd for 5 is worth praise; however, one has to take into account the docile pitch and a out of sorts Kiwi bowling.
It was nice to see KP back among runs. It was due for long.
With a 1-0 lead England are in the driver's seat but to turn the result in their favour they need to go past 350 today because then their bowlers would be able to rattle some nerves in the average Kiwi batting.
I think Collingwood unnecessarily has become the talking point. He has got a smart head on his shoulders and he will come out of this patch very soon.
More he is scrutinised, the more is prone to buckle under pressure.
Though I agree with Mr Agnew that the player should have played the county match. He, anyway, doesn't have a great technique. He is a lobourer and he must try to labour hard at the crease than spending futile times with Andy looking at his batting flaws.

Hoggard must wonder what he has done: one bad match and discarded! As for the batters they live a charmed life. There was an interesting comment on Sky yesterday that Bell consistently fails in the first innings and rarely scores heavily when England are in trouble or against quality opposition? So how does he manage to keep getting selected? Whenever he walks out he looks like the proverbial rabbit in the headlights, as does Collingwood.
Makes the concept of picking the one day squad look rather ridiculous, surely pick the eleven best one day players in form and then pick a captain. It is not as though one day cricket requires great tacticians!

Sorry Arfurjock - there is a reason Chris Read doesn't get a game - he averages less than 19 in Test cricket.

*stumped* what do we need hoggard for?

bopara bowls pretty decent medium-pace away drifters?!?!

A lot of people are calling for Bell and Colly's heads, and I agree that they both seem out of touch at the moment, but in reality I cannot see any of the players mentioned as replacements being more than a stop gap!

Bopara and Shah look to be decent cricketers, but no more than that, and Key and Ramprakash have proven they can do it on occasion but are too inconsistent for a long term place.

I'm not too sure about Bell, but an in-form Collingwood is a must for the England team. He is our only gritty player in the middle order who is at his best when the chips are down.

I think the selectors are hoping for him to turn the corner, rather than shuffle the side.

Glad to see KP get another ton today, but must admit he worries me slightly. He is undoubtedly our best (and only world class) batsman but occasionally i'd like to see a bit more grit from him too - what I'm getting at is that for someone as good as he is, he doesn't seem to make enough hundreds and big hundreds compared with his peers - the likes of Ponting, Tendulkar, Yousuf etc. He did this in his innings today, but too often on a tricky pitch seems to play a silly shot trying to take it to the bowler and gets out. His run out at Old Trafford was a classic example of a mad moment - I think in the same postion we would have seen Ponting carry his bat (as per ashes 3rd test 2005 at the same ground).

"1. Why do a lot of people think that Chris Read is a test quality wicker keeper?"

Maybe they have seen him keep?

I don't think that there is any question that he is a Test quality keeper (and his excellent performances during the Ashes only acted to confirm this), the question is whether he can be fitted in to the batting line up.

There is also the matter that his treatment by previous regimes probably leaves him with so much baggage that it is hard to see him being selected. But none of that takes away from his class as a keeper (if that is what you really meant, or were you using wicket keeper as a euphemism for batsman-who-keeps?).

Bell was man of the series not so long ago, he can be a classy player but has not proved himself against tough opposition and only rarely when the chips are down, I think we should stick with him a little longer.

Collingwood should not have been chosen for this test. It is an insult to all other county players in form that he was chosen. He should not be given the opportunity to play himself into form whilst playing for England.

I'd like to see Broad get some wickets as well, he has looked half decent with the bat but not very threatening with the ball thus far in this series

Totally agree with Joeshmoe99.
Mind you, I'd also be picking England's
premier no.3.

Totally agree with JoeShoe 99.
Mind you, I'd also pick England's premier
No. 3.

Lots of people also championing Chris Read, and must admit I have not seen a lot of him other than his test match appearances, but the one thing that (unfortunately) sticks in the mind with him is that he looked very uncomfortable against proper pace bowling, and the image of him curled up in the foetal position to be lbw to a Chris Cairns slower ball against NZ in 1999.

It probably isn't fair to judge him on that, but if that's what sticks in the mind, perhaps that explains the reluctance of the selectors to choose him again?

I was at TB yesterday.

KP was really really brilliant (and had never been out of form, in any case, his last century being only 5 innings ago!), and while I agree with Aggers that Ambrose looks to cut too often, he isn't "one shotted". Indeed he played some decent front-foot shots yesterday. I think he's secured his place for the SA series.

Bell and Colly are getting a lot of stick. I can't add to that.

However, I can't believe no one is pointing a finger at the WORST batting display yesterday. That of VAUGHAN.

Vaughan came in, and pretty much right away started showing the bowlers to be what they were. A limited bunch on a pretty flat deck. His cover-drives were wonderful.

Then he drives airily at a straight one, misses it by a mile and gets clean bowled!

It's one thing for Bell and Colly (out of form) to get small scores. It's quite another when the CAPTAIN (who, before the match, said we'd have to graft to get runs) gets himself out.

Vaughan looks lazy and disinterested. He has more talent than any of the other English batsmen (including KP) but he simply doesn't seem willing to knuckle down and score runs.

How many times does he get HIMSELF out with a lazy shot? He's meant to be leading the team. He tells us they are working hard and they aren't complacent and the respect NZ and they haven't under-estimated them. Then he plays a shot like that!

I love Vaughan. He has all the talent in the world. But frankly, since he won the Ashes he's looked disinterested and casual.

Interesting point, Silk - I am a massive fan of MPV, but I find him so frustrating.

What's your solution? Drop him? Replace him as captain?

I've been a big supporter of Ian Bell, but have to agree with simonk (#8).

Collingwood has been out of form for too long, and can't be in the side just becaue he's the ODI captain.

Bell, despite showing glimses of brilliance, needs to go away and learn how to convert solid-looking 30s and 40s in to big, big hundreds.

Give Bopara and Shah a chance against South Africa, as they are both bang in form at the moment, unlike Colly and Bell.

Interesting point by Silk and also as a Vaughan fan I agree. For those who have avidly watched his career the really disturbing issue is the number of times he gets clean bowled, in exactly the same manner as yesterday's dismissal. There is a technical flaw in his game and those bowlers who can bowl straight will get him in trouble. He plays expansively too early in his innings and ends up missing the straight ones.

AinsdaleWolf wrote

That KP is not scoring enough tons.

In three years he has scored 12 and he has gone past 50 on 10 other occassions. He has a test century against every test nation he has faced. He has averaged over a 1000 test runs for the last two years how many other players do you think are out there doing this.

I think KP is the least of Englands problems.

Silk - i sortof agree.

i don't think he's quite the mercurial batting talent you describe but he was very good.

in my opinion Vaughn's fielding is a good indicator/barometer of where he's at, and it has been getting steadily worse for a while.

obviously he's nowhere near as sharp as he was before the knee injury. but worryingly his reactions and anticipation seem to have deserted him too - not just his groundspeed. he was always a genuine menace at cover/mid-off or running to midwicket from mid-on to pick-up-and-throw. England's fielding team misses that energy in its captain.

i don't think it's that harsh on Vaughn to call him an old pro who's learnt to do just enough...

SisterKaren, I think you may have missed my point?

Far from criticising the amount of runs KP gets, I just think that to go down in the record books as one of cricket's great players, which I believe he has the undoubted talent to be, he needs to work on those minor lapses of concentration which prevent him from, on certain occasions, taking advantage of opportunities he creates for himself.

It is only a small step, but one which I believe would take him from being the world class batsman which he currently is to being remembered as one of the greats of the game.

I think it is fair to say that Bell and Collingwood need to be sent back to their respective counties to go and find their feet. But I would make no bones about the fact that there probably isn't anything which is immediately better. I am not convinced about Shah or Bopara at test level and both Bell and Colly have proven that they are players of very high calibre, in fact both have been the ones getting the bulk of the runs while everyone else struggles at various points in their careers so far. Add to this the fact that Collingwood is one of the finest fielders in the game and to dismiss them both outright is foolish.

I say give them a rest, but I would also do the highly unpopular thing of bringing Mark Ramprakash back into the team. Agreed it may not be the most forward thinking move, but if you want the best and most in form players representing your country, then he has to be there!

As for the bowling, this attack is fine for me. James Anderson had a brilliant series against SA the last time they were over here, and while he is prone to spraying the ball about a little bit, you know for sure there will be wicket taking deliveries around the corner. Look at Brett Lee, in his early days he was very very erratic, but he was persisted with and now has much more control, something which Anderson will gain as he is clearly a bowler of some talent.

Finally, Ambrose for me is not the long term solution, but at the moment he is just about holding his place. Chris Read is simply not good enough. Only other option for me is give Phil Mustard a go. Very simlilar style of play to Gilchrist and McCullum which is surely what we are looking for? He may not be in the same class, but he may become as good if given the chance and since we have tried and disposed of so many keepers, what is the harm in giving him a go?

My team for SA would be
Cook
Strauss
Vaughan
Ramprakash
Pietersen
Shah
Ambrose
Broad
Sidebottom
Anderson
Panesar

Keeping in mind Bell, Collingwood, Mustard, Flintoff, Hoggard

What no one mentions is that after five and a half Tests, Time Ambrose already has as many runs as Chris Read had after 12 Tests and that he already as a century and 2x50 in 5.5 Tests, whereas Chris Read had a top score of 55 after 15 Tests and only one score of 40 or more in that time.

There is a herd of people going around asking to drop someone. A few weeks ago it was Strauss, then Vaughan, then Pietersen. At that time Belly and Colly were solid. Now the attention is turned on them. Is that the answer to everything? Drop him etc.
The herd is led by the media so we get the latest catch phrase repeated. The latest being easy runs.
There have been loads of examples given on 606 that Bell has come in and battled away in pressure situations. I'll just mention this year he batted for five hours trying to save the game at Kandy, facing Murali at his best. If a few others had stuck around we would have drawn that game and the Series. Also he was the ONLY one not to crack at Hamilton in that dramatic collapse. Again if some had stuck around for half a day then we would have drawn that game.
He got a superb century only four innings ago.
The media are hell-bent on persecuting Bell and breaking his self-confidence. There's no-one good enough to come in and replace him. The media are on a destructive crusade. So they have to invent reasons like easy runs. What next I wonder? There are no easy runs in Test cricket against decent bowling. Ask Bopara and Shah.

Yes, battingforbell, I had noticed. And a few months ago people were positively foaming at the mouth at Andrew Strauss's "totally unjustified" recall. Just as well he was recalled, despite the revelation made by many fans that he is talentless and just had a lucky season.

He might have got out to a poor shot yesterday, but without his runs over the last few Tests we would have been up the creek without a paddle.

The same few sad posters, led by someone who seems to have a personal issue with him, are after Michael Vaughan. One thing is to criticise, as Silk does (after all, he was actually at the match yesterday) a daft shot and the fact that he is not making the big tons that he made earlier in his career, it is another to claim that he is a bad captain, practicing nepotism and his selections are all based on a desperate wish to get Andrew Flintoff back to avoid a threat to his own captaincy. Really, there ae a few critics out there who really seem to have some issues. It's quite simple: MV is the captain and is the most successful one in England history. When he can't do it any more, he'll go. End of story. Right now he is still doing it, maybe not quite as well, but did average around 50 in 9 Tests in 2007! And England are winning some matches again.

Collingwood is another case. He is having a desperate time this season in all cricket. Sooner or later you reach a point where you need to give a guy a break. Unfortunately though, he is now ODI captain so, what is he going to get after this series? A couple of county games? A 2nd XI match just to get a quiet bat away from the media? No! High pressure international cricket with half he fans hoping that he'll fail. Just what he needs now.

KP was brilliant yesterday, after a rather dodgy start. Once again, he has got runs when the pressure was at its most intense. However, with KP we just expect him to now. He's class. It's not a surprise. End of story.

The problem with the idea of dropping Strauss (who most people on this blog wanted dropped two months ago), Bell or Collingwood is that all three have better records over the last 5 years than the captain...

Interestingly, over the last 2 years (not sure where 5 years has come from, Philyana - Bell and Colly haven't even been playing that long and MPV was injured for half of it!), the records of thos batsmen are almost identical:

Vaughan: 993 runs @ 38.2; 3x100
Bell: 973 @ 38.9; 2x100
Collingwood: 997 @ 38.3; 2x100
Strauss: 972 @ 38.9; 2x100

What I would say, though, is that those averages reflect slightly better on Strauss and Vaughan than the others as they have either opened or come in at number 3, so have faced the new ball and don't have their averages boosted by not outs. Coupled with the fact that Bell and Colly are completely out of form, whilst the other two are in decent nick.

GHBRich,

Bell and Strauss made their debuts in 2004 and Collingwood his debut in 2003.

I admit that choosing 5 years was a bit random; I chose it because over that period (since his 100 against South Africa in June 2003) Vaughan averages 37. It makes the point that it's not a blip but a sustained run.

Anyway, your 2 year figures make the same points - that they're all fortunate to be in the side, and that dropping other batters (especially younger players) whilst retaining an older player with a poorer record would be difficult to do. What message does it send out?

Not sure I'd agree about the batting positions making much difference. The captain has had the pick of where to bat and has changed at will.