More laws questions answered
- 15 Mar 07, 09:04 AM
The penultimate round of Six Nations games has thrown up plenty of queries for my colleague Hugh Watkins and I.
This week we cover the controversial ending to the Wales v Italy game in Rome as well as issues surrounding Ireland's win over Scotland.
Q. Paul - In the Italy v Wales game, the decision to kick to touch at the end cost Wales dearly. I think that the line-out is a separate play from the penalty, while my mate thinks it is part of the same penalty play and therefore the line-out should have been allowed. What is your position?
A. The line-out is a separate play Paul. Therefore if the line-out is not formed once the 80 minutes is up, then the final whistle shall be blown.
Q. Andrew - Following the Italy v Wales game, I have a question. Who is the sole arbitrator of game time in an IRB international match? Does the referee still consult his watch or does the time-keeper or fourth official prompt the referee as to when the 80 minutes is up?
A. The referee will consult the time keeper or fourth official but the referee is the sole arbitrator and has the final say.
Q. Tom Last - Why can't the Television Match Official or team officials ask for an incident to be looked at during the half-time break. For example, the punch on Stephen Jones by Mauro Bergamasco. If the TMO had seen the incident, as he must of, why can he not tell the referee at the time or at half time? Citing the player after the match has no effect on the game.
A. Good point Tom, but the law does not allow the TMO to act on foul play outside the in-goal area I am afraid.
Q. Mike - If a game is abandoned due to weather at 60 minutes, does the score stand or is the game replayed?
A. It may differ from country to country Mike but in Wales at WRU level, you have to play the full 80 minutes for the match result to stand.
Q. Robert - If an attacking player is running towards the defending team's line (eg Denis Hickie against Scotland) and is tackled, taking with him the corner flag before he grounds the ball, does that count as the ball being out of play? Also, at the end of the Scotland v Ireland match why, when Scotland had a kickable penalty, did the referee blow for full time?
A. The corner post is part of the in-goal area which is why the referee/TMO correctly awarded a drop-out 22. At the end of the match Rob there was no penalty, the referee blew up for an unplayable therefore signalling the end of the match.
Q. Tom - When the red team forms a ruck over a tackled player and the blue team enters it with a blue player ploughing straight through the middle so he is effectively standing over the ball, what can the player do? You can't pick up the ball as it is a ruck and you can't rake it back as the tackled player is in the way. The only thing I can think of is hacking the ball out the red side.
A. You must have at least one player from each side in contact over the ball on the ground for it to be a ruck Tom. Players joining it must do so from their own side and they must bind onto one of their own team. You are right, you cannot pick the ball up in a ruck but you can play it back or kick it out with your feet as long as you do not stamp or kick a player on the ground.
Q. Mike - With regard to rucks and to a much lesser extent to scrums, why are acting halves allowed to get hold of the ball, or touch it, and then let go leaving it where it was? Surely this is a knock-on, particularly if the player makes any backward movement. It seems to happen in every match yet referees ignore it.
A. If the acting half-back puts both hands on the ball, then it is out of the ruck. If he knocks it forward then it is a knock on, but touching the ball does not mean you have knocked it forward. A knock on is when you lose control of the ball.
Q. David Isaac - Can you please explain some of the finer points of the line-out? If the defending side do not contest the throw and the attacking team form a 'driving' line-out, are the defending team allowed to tackle the ball carrier, who is typically the last man in the attacking formation? This on the surface seems to be offside, but I am sure the Italians used it as a ploy against England recently. Could you point me to the law that allows it?
A. Right, this could be a tricky one to explain David, but here we go! If the defending team does not contest the driving line-out and the ball is at the back with an attacking player, then it is an offence ie truck and trailer. However, if the ball is with the player at the front then it is play on.
Q. Greg - At a quick line-out, does the five-metre rule apply? That is, if I throw the ball in to a quick line-out and an opposing player stops the ball travelling five metres, is he penalised?
A. Yes it does, with a free kick being awarded.
Q. Ollie - 1. What is the law regarding a double movement when scoring a try and does it result in a penalty or a free kick?
A. If it is a double movement then it will be a penalty Ollie. If you are tackled and you can reach the line to score a try in your next movement then you can score. But if you try and reach for it and fail and then try again, then that is a double movement.
2. If an attacking team takes the ball into the in-goal area but the defending team kicks it over the dead ball line, is it a scrum or a drop-out?
It will be a drop-out. It is all to do with which side took it into the in-goal area.
Q. Checkmate - How long can a number eight dribble the ball from the base of a scrum, and once the ball has been placed in, does he still have to keep his head in the scrum or can he look up for opportunities?
A. He can look up as long as he has at least one arm fully bound. He can dribble the ball for as long as the scrum keeps moving and he can control it in the back of the scrum.
Q. Rob - Is there any difference for playing advantage when the original offence has been either a penalty or a resulting scrum?
A. Yes, there should be a slightly longer time for advantage after penalty.
Wales 27-18 England
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Paul - When a ruck is formed and the ball is available for the active half, how long can he wait before picking it up? Surely if there is no time limit then this is a way of wasting time towards the end of the match? If there is a time limit then is this set for the referee or up to his judgement? Or is it up to the defending team to make him play it?
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Why can a player in a ruck not grab the opposition scrum-half if he is in arms reach? I was always taught, when entering a ruck, to grab anything/anybody I could and drive forward, and yet now I see players penalised for grabbing the scrum-half.
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No 2: Simon, this changed not all that long ago. I think it was a aft change. If the acting half doesn't want to get grabbed, he needs to be shielded by more forwards - so both sides would need to commit more forwards to the ruck and hence we'd have less congestion.
The other problem with this is that the acting half could actually be an approaching player about to join the ruck, in which case the defending forwards have a reasonable interest in disrupting his actions.
But don't get me started on new rules that have spoilt the game...
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What way does it stand now with the six nations, what does Ireland need to do to win the six nations.
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In relation to the end of the Italy Wales game, IRB Law 5(e)states:
"If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or
lineout has not been completed the referee allows play to continue
until the next time that the ball becomes dead. If time expires and
a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows
play to continue."
Nigel says the crucial moment is the forming of the lineout. The law seems clear that it is the awarding of the lineout. If the ball crossed the line before the final ten seconds were up, should not the lineout have been awarded and hence played?
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I'm not sure the timekeeping questions are entirely accurate.
Admittedly I'm not a Rugby referee, but as there seems considerable confusion here I looked up the Laws of the Game.
1) I think the answer should be: The line out is a separate play, so if it hasn't been awarded at the point at which time expires, the game is over. (Law 5.7 (e) "If time expires and ... an awarded ... lineout has not been completed the referee allows play to continue...")
In the Wales game, the referee clearly didn't know exactly how long was left. Had there been a couple more seconds, they could have awarded the line-out, but there weren't. Correct call in law, bad communication between TMO/timekeeper, referee and captain.
2) Law 6.A.7(g): "The match organiser may appoint a timekeeper who will signify the end of each half." This is supported by Law 5.3: "The referee ... may delegate the duty [to keep time] to ... the official timekeeper..."
So while it's not 100% clear, I believe that the timekeeper and Chris White both believed that it was not Chris White's job to decide when time had expired: that was a task delegated to the timekeeper (by the Six Nations Regulations?) and that he had no power to overrule the decision that time had expired.
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The lineout was awarded as the refree signalled - therefore the lineout 'should' have taken place. Not that it matters as Italy were the better team and deserved their victory.
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RE No 2 & 3:
I too get frustrated by the fact that a player coming through the ruck cannot touch the half-back.
Incident of note was Tindall giving away a penalty against France for just that.
I don't know the laws in detail but I believe that it works like this:
You must not pull an opposition player in a ruck or maul - ie. if you step through a ruck you are only allowed to push forwards and not hold or pull back an opposition player.
Therefore if Tindall had simply continued moving foward with his feet and pushed the half-back rather than reaching over and grabbing him, he would have been ok and the ruck would have re-formed between the two of them.
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When a team is awarded a penalty and opts for a kick at goal, if the resulting kick hits the post the ball is in play and attackers can score a try.
As the defending team generally stand between kick and goal, space may be available on the pitch. Can the attacking team aim the kick away from goal, eg to a corner, in order for runners to catch and attempt to score a try?
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Is the bigger problem with the Wales-Italy ending that the ref mis-informed the Welsh about how long was left? Even if the time was up when the ball crossed the line, 10 seconds hadn't elapsed since the ref stated that was how long was left.
My personal view is that the ref should have allowed play to carry on as he must have known that his statement of how long was left had influenced the Welsh decision; he should therefore stick to his ascertion and let the lineout be taken.
I don't really care if this is technically against the rules, ref's in all sports need to be a bit flexible and they would get more respect if they didn't always hide behind the laws of the game (I'm saying this as a qualified football referee).
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What would be the ref's decision at a restart if the player taking the restart drop-kicks the ball over the oppo's bar, and the ball does NOT go over the dead ball line.Is it a drop goal?
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In the Eng v Fra game last week, England took a quick line out which I thought was basically a pass from the wing to the full back (ie it clearly went backwards). Is the rule on having a straight line-out ignored when it's being taken quickly, or did the ref/touch judge ignore it in the interests of letting the game 'flow'.
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In response to Ant. Yes, you are correct. Cna't remember who it was against, but David Humphries did it recently in a game for Ulster. He noticed that the opposition were huddled beneath the posts talking tactics. So he just kicked the ball along the ground, picked it up and scampered over for a try. The opposition moaned about it and said it wasn't very sporting, but I guess that is just because they didn't think of doing it first lol.
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Re: #10, from what I remember you cannot score a drop-goal from a restart (free kick, presumably) - the ball must be touched by a member of the opposition. Therefore the #10 can drop a goal from a scrum or after the forwards have set up a maul, but not directly from the free kick.
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In response to Ant and Richard. You used to be able to tee the ball up at a penalty to kick to touch but this was stopped about 15 years ago. The rule goes that if you say you are going for the posts you have to aim at them.
How the ref would decide what was a fair shot rather than a miss hit I don't know. But I guess that it would be reasonably obvious.
In David Humphries case he had not said he was going for the posts and the ref had not signaled. The opposition just assumed that he would so went to stand accordingly and Humphries noticed so tapped and ran.
The opposition got annoyed but the only fault was their stupidity at making a school boy error.
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In response to message #12 and #9.
If you have indicated you are going for the points then it's what you go for.
I am sure there are spme people that will disagree.
In the Ulster vs London Irish game, David Humphreys had made no such indication and Simon Best mentioned that nobody was defending the corner, so in he went. As an Ulster fan I was highly amused. It was a little piece of genius.
I am sure once again that some people will disagree :)
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In response to Ant and Richard (9 & 12) my understanding is that once the team awarded the penalty has indicated that they are going for goal, they have to make an attempt at goal. They aren't allowed to kick to the corner or kick along the ground.
At least that's how it was when I last played, but I guess the laws could have changed!
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Nigel/Hugh - you said that the lineout is a separate play from the penalty, which I agree with, but I disagree that the final whistle should be blown if the lineout is not formed once the 80 mins is up. Doesn't the lineout have to be played if it has been AWARDED before the 80 mins is up?
If I'm right, doesn't the fact that your interpretation is wrong show how easy it is for international referees to get it wrong (though I don't think the referee who made a mistake in the Wales-Italy game - it was the the TMO who told him there was 10 seconds left, when there wasn't).
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Sorry to harp on back to the Chris White misunderstanding but after the event the law was explained time and time again. Why then did the ref in the English game the following day decide a scrum could be taken well after the 80 minutes? Was he taking the micheal, re-iterating his authority, allowing another cheap joke from Brian Moore or was he happy in the fact that 2 scores were required so in fact was under no pressure what so ever. One Law for one etc!!! Guinness helped get the salt off my nose that day
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the law has always been that if you opt to go for goal, you must. It has also always been the case that you can follow up a penalty kick - it may drop short, hit the post, be knocked on by a catcher, and in all of these cases the 'chaser upper' can have a go for the try. After all, if it falls short or just wide in goal, the ball is in play (and the defenders could stage a counter attack and score themselves(hopefully England won't try this too often on saturday as we will probably lose the ball in midfield and concede)). They key point is that the kicker must attempt the posts and cannot deliberately kick for a catcher.
Re#14. I can't see why it sould be an opponent who has to touch the ball, because a chaser could catch the drop out, set up a phase or two, and then have Johnny slot the winning drop, without any of the oppo touching it.
Still living off RWC 2003!
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Maybe Nigel was being a bit ambiguous about the law relating to the lineout in the Wales-Italy game to try to save the blushes of a fellow referee! If not, it looks like it was lucky it was not him making the decision, or he would have been left as exposed as Chris White.
That said - I think it was a dumb call in the first place by Wales. I seriously doubt we would have won clean lineout ball and scored a try.
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If a defending fullback catches the ball with one foot in touch, then the throw-in will be awarded to his own side, not the kicker's.
As I understand, this is because he has not carried the ball out of bounds.
A similar situation arises when a defender picks up the ball with one foot in his own in-goal area, and touches it down: a drop-out 22 will be awarded rather than a scrum 5, because the defender has not actually carried the ball over his try-line.
QUESTION:
What happens if a full back stands with a foot in touch, and swats the ball out of the air?
Has the ball gone out of play?
Who would have the throw-in?
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One thing which I have always wondered about in rucking is not being allowed to play the ball with your hands in the ruck.
Often, you will see the attacking team's forwards handing the ball back to their scrum-half with their hands.
Surely, this is either handling in the ruck and a penalty, or the ball is "out" and the player holding the ball for his scrum-half can be tackled.
I've never, ever understood why players seem to be allowed to play the ball with their hands in this instance.
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Nigel
How do referees reconcile the rules on entering a ruck with the tactics used by some teams (especially Southern Hemisphere teams)of "clearing" opponents out of the ruck?
Law 10(i) says players must not charge into a ruck or maul without binding on and Law 16(2)(b) says players joining a ruck must bind on with at least one arm to a team mate. Yet if you watch Super 14 or SH International tams you routinely see players charging in and barging opposition players out of the ruck without binding to either their opponent or a team mate.
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I was wondering what is your opinion of the advantage rule regarding the length of an advantage after an offence? I see some referees play longer advantages then others and I was wondering is there a longer advantage for some offences than for others. Is there a set rule for an advantage length or is it up to the referees discretion?
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Re #19:
If a scrum or line-out is awarded before time expires, it must be completed and then the ball go out of play again before the end of the half/game is declared.
I might be wrong, but I think that a scrum is 'completed' when the ball leaves it legally - so if the scrum fails (collapses, etc, possibly even wheels through 90 degrees) then the scrum is re-set and the ball put-in again.
In the Wales game, the timekeeper determined that time had expired before the ball went into touch: you can hear Chris White say 'can we award the lineout first?' or words to that effect (I think the video with the conversation turned up is still on the 麻豆官网首页入口 site somewhere). The timekeeper said, no, time has already expired. The fault was that he had told Chris White "ten seconds" when really there were only six or seven, and possibly that Wales didn't quite kick the penalty as quickly as they could have.
Correct call, the fault being the inability of players or referee to know precisely how much time's left. Is it time for a stadium clock which shows the seconds remaining (a la American sports)?
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Why is it that forward passes are so routinely allowed? Just watching the Italy vs Ireland game, second try, pass to Horgan was clearly forward (easily seen relative to the halfway line) - nobody appeared even to notice.
Surely it is simple a case of if the point at which the receiver first touches the ball is nearer to the opposition try line than the point at which the pass was released, then the pass is forward? This is really the only reasonably interpretation of the laws I can think of, but it seems pretty clearly not to be the way that games are refereed. Rarely a game goes by where there aren't several examples of this not being applied.
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What is the point of the TMO if they get it so wrong?? The standard of refereeing this championship has been dismal. Today proved that with that disgraceful decision by the TMO in Rome and also the inexperienced display by the South African in Paris. Between him and that idiot Courtney they sent of teh wrong man for what was not a binnning offence and then awarding a try which wasn't conclusive. If he ws so sure why go to the TMO. Pathetic!! IRB needs to look at the dismal standards in this championship as it may end up that the WC is remembered for the incompetence of the referees!!! Mssrs Walsh (Mr Mouth), Courtney, White and others need to have a good look at themselves!!
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Once full time is up, how long can play go on if the ball never goes out of play?
E.g., if the team trailing need to score to win the match & the team leading need to score to win the championship, neither will want play to stop...
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I am biased. I am Irish. Can some one explain to me how the tmo could award a try when in my opinion one could not see the ball being grounded for the French final try.
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Hi Nigel,
What is your opinion on the quality of refereeing in this year's Six Nations?
Personally I'm of the opinion that the outcome of the championship was decided by their errors.
We had:
* the Wilkinson try that wasn't
* the debacle at the end of WalesvItaly
* the unmentioned full-time whistle after Scotland were awarded a penalty vs Ireland.
* the sin-binning of the wrong player in Scotland v France today.
* the forward pass for Darcy's try today.
* the double movement for Darcy's try today.
This is all off the top of my head, I'm sure if I thought about it more I could come up with more.
I suppose my Laws question would be this:
* What exactly is the purpose of a video referee, and where are the lines between the on-field ref & video?
From what I can see we've had video ref's make a series of disgraceful decisions this Six Nations. Surely if on-field ref's aren't going to show backbone to make decisions themselves and the video refs are as prone to as many errors as they've made this year then they're entirely pointless?
As a Scotsman, this isn't sour grapes at all. We won the Wooden Spoon gloriously on our own this year. I just feel it's a sad state of affairs that my abiding memory of this year's competition isn't anything to do with the quality of rugby played but the lack of quality in the referees.
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Re #22 If a fullback catches a kick whilst he has 1 foot in touch, the lineout will be awarded to the team that kicked it. this is because the ball is not out of play until it has either contacted the ground in touch or as seems the case here, the ball has not crossed the touch line and the player has a foot in touch, he is in effect carrying the ball into touch(the same as if a running player puts a foot on the line.
Different Laws govern touch and in-goal so what is said is correct if a player has 1 foot in goal then touches the ball down, it is a 22 drop out.
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"I am biased. I am Irish. Can some one explain to me how the tmo could award a try when in my opinion one could not see the ball being grounded for the French final try." (#30)
Because the TMO didn't award the try. The referee said that he saw the grounding and went to the TMO to see if there was any reason NOT to award the try. If he had been asked whether to award the try or not, I'm sure the decision would have been a 5m attacking scrum because it was inconclusive. But being inconclusive, the TMO could not say for definite that the try should be disallowed, so it went back to the referee to make the decision.
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Oh Nigel
All criticism for refs? Is it not time in rugby if we have a TMO that he can give help where help is needed- eg in the wrong sinbinning?
Or for example clear vioelnt conduct - eg a punch in open play.
We seem to be at a half way house.
Tries yesterday balanced out - eg Darcy try - seemed like a double movement and the final french try- well I didn't see it touch the ground!
Other calls like forward passes have to be called by on the pitch refs.
I'm not sure that Paddy O'brien has got the question right when he suggests refs should ask 'Is there any reason why I should not award a try?' Simon McDowell could have said yesterday honestly that he didn't see any reason why he should have awarded the try!
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re #27: when a player passes the ball it maintains the players momentum, which means it may travel forward relative to a fixed point (e.g. the half way line) but backwards relative to the player.
I believe that as long as it travel backwards relative to the player then the pass is good.
I remember reading somewhere that referees look for the passers' hands moving/pointing in a backwards direction at the point of release.
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