Six Nations - the final verdict
- 18 Mar 07, 10:31 AM
London - The 2007 Six Nations ended in controversial, joyous, heartbreaking or infuriating fashion depending on the colour of your shirt.
But there's no doubt it's been a cracker - maybe not for the actual quality of rugby but for the drama and suspense right up until the final match.
France, Ireland and England were all tied at the top of the table going into Saturday's finale, meaning every point scored, for or against, would be crucial in deciding the eventual winners.
Ireland were up first and ran in eight tries against Italy but they lost their focus and let in the Azzurri for an injury-time score to cut the final margin to 27 points.
This left France needing to beat Scotland by a clear 24 points in Paris and Les Bleus were seemingly home and dry until prop Euan Murray's late try for the Scots appeared to have swung the title Ireland's way.
But in a pulsating finish, Elvis Vermeulen was deemed (by an Irish video official) to have scored with the very last act of the match to give France a 46-19 win and one hand on the Six Nations crown.
England still had an outside chance of lifting the title but needed to win by 57 points in Cardiff. But Brian Ashton's men were outgunned 27-18 in Wales and France accepted the trophy in their dinner jackets at the Stade de France.
So what's the end-of-term report for the six northern hemisphere teams as the World Cup looms larger on the horizon?
FRANCE
Positives: Proved that they could grind out a win when it mattered, as seen with the last-gasp effort against Ireland and also the title-clinching try in Paris. Lifting the crown will have instilled a winning mentality and confidence to the side and fostered more public support for the World Cup bid on home soil later this year. David Skrela has cemented his place as first-choice fly-half and Pierre Mignoni looks set to partner him at scrum-half.
Negatives: France, and how many times have we said this in the past, still have a tendency to go missing for large periods of time, such as the entire England match. They can't afford these sort of slip-ups in the World Cup. Coach Bernard Laporte was hoping to blood his entire 40-man squad but was unable through injury and is left with a few questions unresolved.
IRELAND:
Positives: Front row didn't buckle like many thought they would at start of the tournament and in open-side David Wallace they have one of world's most unsung players. The backs bristle with menace and dash, and when their dander is up the attacks can come from anywhere. Brian O'Driscoll is the talisman but Gordon D'Arcy is an equal in the centre and on their day the back three of Denis Hickie, Shane Horgan and Girvan Dempsey can carve defences wide open.
Negatives: Lack the composure and ultimately professionalism to close out matches they should have won. Captain O'Driscoll was off the pitch injured when they capitulated to a late French try in Dublin, and was also off when they allowed Italy to score a consolation in Rome, shaving crucial points off their winning margin.
ENGLAND
Positives: Brian Ashton's new-look side have shown moments of promise and are on a general upwards curve after the dark days of Andy Robinson. The opening win over Scotland and the defeat of France at Twickenham were high points, along with the return of Jonny Wilkinson and the emergence of promising young guns such as Toby Flood, Shane Geraghty, Tom Rees and David Strettle. The recall of veteran centre Mike Catt was also a plus, while the pack were hungry against France. Martin Corry moving to lock was another masterstroke.
Negatives: Seem unable to back up their good performances from one match to the next. The pack went missing against Ireland and again in Cardiff, though they did well to claw their way back into that one. But a general lack of real leadership up front is a cause for concern. The Andy Farrell experiment took England down a blind alley, and the appointment of Phil Vickery as captain backfired when he lost form.
ITALY
Positives: The only side that can truly claim to have progressed during the tournament. Their first ever Six Nations away win came courtesy of a pulsating opening seven minutes at Murrayfield and they backed it up with victory over Wales in Rome. The recall of 33-year-old scrum-half Alessandro Troncon was key, and Italy also ironed out their previous inability to keep fighting for the full 80 minutes. Italian public took notice and rugby knocked football off the back pages.
Negatives: The pack is ferocious but out wide Italy are still lacking world-class attackers. Were carved apart against Ireland and are susceptible to letting their heads drop at times. Still questions marks at fly-half with neither Andrea Scanavacca nor Ramiro Pez making the number 10 jersey his own.
WALES
Positives: Ended a very disappointing tournament on a high with a rousing victory over England that showed glimpses of their 2005 Grand Slam-winning form. Also impressed in patches against Ireland and France. James Hook has developed into a real star, while lock Alun Wyn-Jones has been a beacon of light and the back row of Ryan Jones, Alix Popham and Martyn Williams has an impressive intensity on its day.
Negatives: Spectacularly lacklustre at Murrayfield and a general lack of possession has hampered their ability to play "the Welsh way". Hook's rise has led to a difficult dilemma for coach Gareth Jenkins. Does he drop his injured captain Stephen Jones and stick with Hook at fly-half? Or does he go back to the 21-year-old at centre?
SCOTLAND
Positives: Hampered by a raft of injuries going into the tournament including the loss of key flanker Jason White but ended it slightly frustrated that they didn't do better. Took Ireland to the wire before going down by a single point and played with passion and verve at times. Skipper Chris Paterson, wing Sean Lamont and flanker Simon Taylor continue to stand out, while David Callam and Kelly Brown have impressed. Scotland are also strong at scrum-half, with Chris Cusiter, Rory Lawson and Mike Blair, though Cusiter was wobbly against Italy.
Negatives: The fly-half debate has still not been solved. Paterson is clearly the best player on the park but coach Frank Hadden has only flirted with him at number 10, while giving chances to Phil Godman and Dan Parks. The aberration against Italy, when the Azzurri scored three tries in the opening seven minutes, will be etched in the minds of Scottish supporters. The pack lacks real power and cohesion, while the midfield lacks guile.
Wales 27-18 England
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Fair assessment of Ireland's positives and negatives. Although Irish supporters are extremely disappointed, when all is said and done, France deserved to win the Championship, as they won the head-to-head match with Ireland in Dublin. Ireland clearly have the ability, however they really only performed to their highest levels when they were under real pressure to perform (against England, following the disappointing performance against France and against Italy, with the Championship on the line). If Ireland can find their "A" game on a more consistent basis then they will be serious World Cup contenders. Hopefully, the lessons learned in the Championship will prove to be good preparation for the France and Argentina games coming up in the World Cup. It's also critical to Irish hopes that both O'Driscoll and O'Connell stay fit and healthy, as their leadership abilities are key.
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Gareth Jenkins stood by his Fly Half until he was injured. Stephen Jones has been a great player perhaps not in the same class as the Barry Johns Phil Bennets and Jonathon Davies's and those before.However this International season it has been plain to see by his body language on the field that he has lost his confidence at this level and he should now retire gracefully.
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From what I've seen in this VI Nations, I'm reluctant now to keep Ireland in the favorites for the final victory in this year's WC. They are so dependant on 3 players that the chances those 3 are fit for the whole duration of the tournament are very low and therefore their chances to go through 1/4, 1/2 and then final are low as well. But assuming St Patrick is back with them for a two months period in Sept-Oct, then, why not? ;)
Regarding France, I'm comforted by the fact that at least there is a lot of choices available for Laporte. Let's just hope they will be able to create the team spirit that they were missing last Autumn against the AB (people tend to forget that France had not played as a team since June when the got hammered by the same AB that had just came out of a victorious tri-nations) . Let's hope they will be able to play a consistent rugby during the WHOLE tournament, otherwise the trophy will go directly to the SH...
Regarding England, we can see the first glimpses of the next team backbone. Who knows, they might surprise us in a 6 months time from now.
Regarding the other ones, let's not forget that the Scots have almost beaten Ireland and that Wales can be a pain in the a.. to almost any team if they are on a winning day.
Regarding the tournament itself, 2007 will be remembered as the year when Italy started to climb the ladder. Conratulation to Berbizier and his players, you deserved your victories!
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I am a French supporter and I was at the Stade de France saturday afternoon… what a game ! a real French team is born during this tournament, with a spirit, a solidarity and lots of great individual talents : Mignoni, Skrela and Beauxis, Clerc, and lots of confirmations : Ibanez, Thion, Jauzion… They live together, they play together, they are no more single players but form like a body… and, most of all, France has win a public, an audience, a country. The Stade de France was standing during 2 hours, was screaming, was waving and singing… I go see the tournament every year, and never before had I lived so much emotions than Saturday. Thank you !
PS : and sorry for the eventual faults in my English !
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I don't think you can say Italy are the only side to progress. Ireland are miles better than they have been but I agree totaly the need to have more composure at the end of matches. I thought some of the rugby played was fantastic. I am wondering about the effect if any the impending world cup is having on players at the moment. I think the lapses that saw Scotland conceed so many scores can be ironed out. I honestly don't see England progressing this year. I think with Full fitness on all teams, the English probably have the poorest team at the moment....
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A great championship. Its much more fun when there isn't one team dominating.
As an Englishman I am encouraged. We have a decent coach who shows humility and is prepared to pick on form. We have some rising stars who have been blooded in some really hostile environments. Roll on the RWC, Semi-finalist would be a reasonable result.
The only downside is that our Celtic Counsins have the bragging rights and that is never much fun but they deserved them this time around.
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A great championship. Its much more fun when there isn't one team dominating.
As an Englishman I am encouraged. We have a decent coach who shows humility and is prepared to pick on form. We have some rising stars who have been blooded in some really hostile environments. Roll on the RWC, Semi-finalist would be a reasonable result.
The only downside is that our Celtic Counsins have the bragging rights and that is never much fun but they deserved them this time around.
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What is the French for jammy!?
It's what if's and maybe's now...
If only those Scot's could have held them off for 30 more seconds.....sigh....
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6N team,
1.Milloud
2.Ibanez
3.Murray
4.Nallet
5.Wyn-Jones
6.Worsely
7.Wallace
8.Parisse
9.Mignoni
10.Hook
11.Hickie
12.D'Arcy
13.O'Driscoll
14.Lamont
15.Poitrenaud
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What's been great this year is how open the 6N has been - evryone seems to have beaten everyone else.
As an England fan I am left feeling frustrated again that we show glimpses of good play but we have no consistency. How can a team that played so well against France have been so poor against the Welsh? We seem totally unable to win away from home at present but maybe this is down to the lack of experience amongst so many of the players. Still Brian Ashton has made a difference and I guess we have to hope that we are generally "on the up" after such a poor autumn. What we lack though is real leadership - as soon as Mike Catt went off on Saturday England just fell apart. Any suggestions ? Don't think Vickery is the answer or Wilkinson come to that
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What an enthralling 6 nations; the only thing that spoils great coverage by the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is the inane and boring remarks of Brian Moore. Come on Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú you can do better - get rid of him for next season and find someone who will make watching and listening so much better.
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France deserved to win the Six Nations but Ireland were a little unlucky on the weekend and will be kicking themselves for the two late tries that they gave up (although the last one was a double move and shouldn't have been allowed).
England made an improvement but need the pack to perform on a more consistent level to give their impressive young backline a chance. Sheridan and Stevens will be welcomed back and that should be a big improvement.
All of the Celtic nations need to raise their game when playing each other to the level they play against England. Only then will the world start looking at them as serious contenders. Wales and Scotland were both guilty of not picking their best (i.e. most attacking) teams for most of the tournament.
All in all, an exciting competition but I doubt that the AB's will be quaking in their boots.
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i totally agree woth you regards David Wallace. Nothing is ever written about him, or you hardly ever here people talking about him. He is as fast as our centers and one of the stongest on the team, he can do anything. He should be given alot more credit, hopefully he will come the world cup.
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France will be very focussed in WC- not just because it's at home but because they think were robbed in the last one. We've still to see the best of them. Europe's best hope.
Ireland - not as good as they think they are. Too dependent on a few players. Not sure they can improve, specially given their hints of complacency.
England - big enigma. Pack very disappointing, need more spirit and more craft - how about Richard Hill? If they can sort the forwards, the backs could be great and the team is capable of significant improvement.
Italy - big improvement but it's hard to see where further gains can come from. Forwards are great - like Argentina they suffer from not being in top echelon and too many decisions go against them and/or opponents are given leeway. Fly half problem is crucial - kidnap Hook? Troncon won't last for ever and is suspect in defence now.
Wales - if they can sort out consistency and politics could be really good - if not, they could implode. Again a bit thin on replacements in crucial areas.
Scotland - too limited in every way, I'm afraid. Not sure where improvements can come from but they are needed.
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Aurora Snow - post 9
Are you quite sure? Hayes has to be considered - much maligned in the scrum he proved doubters wrong this six nations and didn't have a bad game in my opinion. Lifted well in the line out and was a terrier in the loose. And how can you discount the italian front row who were awesome?
Wyn-Jones was good but would not pick him ahead of O'Connell or Bortolami. Or maybe even Pape.
Worsley at 6? Do me a favour. Easterby was much better and probably even Betsen. You could even make a strong case for Leamy playing there even if he was an 8. In fact, the whole Irish back row were probably the best in the tournament so I'd probably play them 6-8. Corry wrote today that if there was "any forward more of a handful than Denis Leamy, I didn't meet him". Harsh on Parisse who was great.
Mignoni, yes. Hook at 10? He had one good game there and a part game against Italy. Yes, it was a very good game against England but you can't place him ahead of O'Gara - 4 tries, 10 conversions, 14 penalties - 82 points in total, just 7 short of Wilkinsons all time record of 89. Top scorer in all the games he played in. Then you've got Skrela who had a great season at the helm and finally looks like France have got a fly half who can control games.
Don't get me wrong, Hook is a class act and will be for many years to come but to put him ahead of O'Gara and Skrela after 1 and a bit games at Fly Half is just silly.
Poitrenaud is another one i'm not sure of? He was good but I don't think any full back shone? You can't discount Dempsey who had a solid tournament. But I guess we've got to have a frenchman in the back 5 seeing as they won the thing, right? Can't have Ireland 10-15 (minus 14) even though they scored the most tries, right? I would.
Then again, I'm a biased/bitter (delete as appropriate :P) Irishman!!
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6 Nations team
(Form over 5 games & reputation)
1.Milloud
2.Ibanez
3.Murray
4.O'Connel
5.Wyn Jones
6.Poppam
7.Wallace
8.Lemy
9.Peel
10.Hook
11.Horgan
12.D'arcy
13.O'Drisscol
14.Jones
15.Poitrenaud
16.Jenkins
17.Best
18.Gough
19.Corry
20.Mignoni
21.Shanklin
22.Jauzion
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That was probably the best 6 Nations I can remember. The tension at the end of the France game was incredible, I was glad that I could just enjoy the rugby and not worry about the result!
I think the tournament was a massive boost for all of the teams involved. The spirit showed by France, Italy and Scotland was amazing. And some of the rugby was sublime. Considering everyone had written England off from the beginning of the tournament they did brilliantly and showed the quality that we have in depth. Just have to blood as much talent as we can and hopefully grow together as a team before the RWC.
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The French were a bit lucky to claim the championship on 3 occasions - the winning try in Dublin inside the last minute or two; then Italy scoring that last try on Saturday when Ireland caught playing 7's - again last minute; and most notably, the French scoing that try with the last play of their game on Saturday. How could an Irish video ref be put in that position though? From the angles we saw, there was no way he could see it grounded, and yet to deny the Frenchmen a score would scream of bias. Surely a Welsh/English/southern hemisphere judge would have been more appropriate. Made it an exciting end though, didn't it!!
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if i was to pick a british lions team this year it would be this
1. Horan (ire)
2. Chuter (Eng)
3. Horsman (Wal)
4. O'Connel (ire)
5. Corry (Eng)
6. Easterby (Ire)
7. Wallace (Ire)
8. Jones (Wal)
9. Ellis or peel (Eng and wal)
10. O'Gara or Hook (ire and wal)
11. Horgan (ire)
12. Catt (Eng)
13. O'Drisscol (ire)
14. Strettle (eng)
15. Patterson (Scot we need at least one!)
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In response to No.9, here is my alternative 6N team:
1.Milloud (Fr)
2.Ibanez (Fr)
3.Nieto (It)
4.O'Connell (Ir)
5. Nallet (Fr)
6.Wallace (Ir)
7.Ma.Bergamasco (It)
8. Parisse (It)
9. Mignoni (Fr)
10. O'Gara (Ir)
11. Clerc (Fr)
12. D'Arcy (Ir)
13. O'Driscoll
14. Horgan (Ir)
15. Paterson (Sc)
Controversial no doubt, as there are no Welsh or English players included. Although there were some great performances from the likes of Wyn-Jones, Hook, Skrela, Dempsey, Robinson, Worsley and Corry, none of them produced on a regular basis.
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Thank God we have got past the assumption that the England v France match is the crucial one of the 6N. 6N must be the best tournament in the world regardless of what sport you follow. Saturday could not have been planned better, just a shame St Patrick went to the Caribbean for his holidays this year!!
Bitterly disappointed with Ireland's inability to close down matches, and also their performance against the Scots - they played the Scottish game of pick and drive around rucks, and did not do it as well.
But lots of positives, the back row were awesome; D'Arcy has emerged from the shadow of O'Driscoll and is now seen as a world-class centre in his own right, not just a foil for BOD; front row did not buckle as we were all told it would. I have said it before, but John Hayes has impressed me more than he has ever done before, I am not putting him up there with the top front-rowers, but I always thought of him as a very limited option, this last few months he has shown there is a bit more to his game than grunt and shove.
I hope Ireland can learn from this and take into the WC the lessons that Munster learnt over years of struggle to get their hands on the HC. I think they will and for encouragement, think how often we went into matches as favourites only to be hammered (I went to my first international in Lansdowne Road in 1970, so I have been watching for a while now). We may have lost against France, but were not hammered. Lessons have been learnt, and Ireland can cope with favourites tag.
Remaining HC matches will ve very interesting as will the summer tour.
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Interesting that a welshman ( I presume) has choosen 5 wales players in the team despite only winning one game. If they had beaten Italy would he have choosen 10?
As an Englishman I think we were disadvantaged this year by the injuries we have had and robinsons legacy. I think if we had Stevens, Thomson, Vickery, Borthwick and Moody fit we would not complaining about lack of steel upfront. I am also encouraged by the emergence of some potentially great new players.
Soon though we have to stop treading water and move up.
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Agree with Post 10, Moore has been a bit over the top this year. Also think that Eddie Butler is too opinionated as a commentator, and too biased when Wales are playing. The summariser is supposed to be the opinionated one, not the commentator. Andrew Cotter and Nick Mullins were much better. Butler should be made a pundit or summariser if he cannot be impartial.
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Post 16
Form over 5 games and you have 5 Welsh players and just 3 French players in your six nations team?????
Was Saturday's game the first rugby match you've seen?
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if the 6N is to be decided on points difference, then decisive round 5 games must be played simultaneously in future. this is one of the few areas where football gets it right, while rugby (6N and world cup) and cricket (current world cup) get it wrong.
what about bonus points? ireland would have won 6N by a point from france (19-18). both scored two attacking bonus points, but ireland's loss was by 3 points, earning a bonus, whereas france lost to england by 8. or should it be head-to-head record as the decider, in which case it's back to france as winners?
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All this talk about young guys coming through - which has been a big plus for a few of the teams.
Anyone got any thoughts of a 6N best newcommer(ish) squad?
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One of the closest 6Ns in recent years, for sure, but one of the best? I don't think so. How many teams performed well in all or most phases of the game for all or most of the 80 minutes? Ireland did against England, England did against Scotland and France and Wales sort of did against Italy & England respectively - but the rest of the rugby was for me scrappy & pretty low-grade stuff. The England vs Italy, Scotland vs Ireland and Scotland vs Wales matches were particularly poor, and nowhere near the standard that would trouble the All Blacks come the autumn.
BTW have they announced the player of the tournament yet? Parisse would be mine.
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1:MILOUD
2:IBANEZ
3:NIETO
4:O'CONNELL
5:WYN-JONES
6:WORSLEY
7:WALLACE
8:LEAMY
9:MIGNIONI
10:O'GARA
11:HICKIE
12:D'ARCY
13:O'DRISCOLL
14:STRETTLE OR LAMONT
15:POITRENAUD
This is my team/players of the tournament
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Luke, (Comment 18) are you seriously saying you could justify picking 5 englishmen in a lions team? Catt over D'arcy! Ha! Also Leamy would be at 8 and O'Callaghan above Corry.Hickie should oust Horgan aswell. A great six nations with some great rugby and the wrong winner (if you are irish)
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The comment by Ron McBride 10.08 regarding Brian Moore making boring remarks, - absolute rubish. He is a great commentator, and calls it how he sees it. He is not biased at all, he is the Jeffrey Boycott of commentating. Ask anyone who knows anything about rugby, and they will agree Moore is a bit of a legend, and his banter with Eddy Butler is fantastic. Love the way he is not frightened to speak his mind. Mr Mcbride, you appear to have no idea about the sport at all in making that comment.
From an avid Welsh supporter
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Don't know about everyone else but I wasn't too enthralled by the 6 nations this year.
I think a number of teams showed that they are not at their best. It's good when teams are more competitive & improving but I fear for the home nations come the World Cup.
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The comment by Ron McBride 10.08 regarding Brian Moore making boring remarks, - completely disagree. Moore is a great commentator, and calls it how he sees it. He is not biased at all, he is the Jeffrey Boycott of commentating. Ask anyone who knows anything about rugby, and they will agree Moore is a bit of a legend, and his banter with Eddy Butler is fantastic. Love the way he is not frightened to speak his mind. Moore to remain for a long time
From an avid Welsh supporter !!!
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To post 25 : you cannot count the points with different rules after the tournament is over. That make no sense. The strategy and decisions taken during each match would have been much different and the final tournament outcome might not have been different...
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1. Horan (Ire)
2. Ibanez (Fra)
3. Canale (lta)
4. O'Connel (Ire)
5. Corry (Eng)
6. Betsen(Fra)
7. M.Williams (Wal)
8. Harinordoquy (Fra)
9. Ellis (Eng)
10. O'Gara (Ire)
11. Robinson (Eng)
12. Jauzion (Fra)
13. Bergamasco (Ita)
14. Strettle (Eng)
15. Poitrenaud (Fra)
An all round 6 Nations best XV
5 Fra
3 Ire
2 Wal
2 Ita
4 Eng
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Yet again Frank Hadden's side fail to show any promise, or any signs of progress. With the mile-long injury list and the lack of talent on the field...there's a real chance that Scotland could get beaten - even thrashed by a minor nation in the WC.
As the ethos goes..'If you're not progressing - you're regressing'. The SRU badly need to start a review after the WC, to commence change. It's going to be very tiring being the 6th Nation all the time - especially considering how the Italians have stepped up to the plate.
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Luke Swan either has an odd sense of humour or an odd sense of reality... Chuter, Horan, Corry, Ellis, Catt Patterson??????
The England pack have strugled throughout most of the tournament-I'd rather have a half-fit Jerry Flannery than Chuter, not to mention the titanic Raphael Ibanez. Your choice of prop is also bizarre, considering the dominance of the Italian front-row over pretty much everyone...
And whilst I agree that corry has fronted up well at lock-was v good at Cardiff, how can you discount Bortolami, Easterby or AW jones?
Harry Ellis has improved but is still miles behind Peel, Mignoni, Troncon and Mike Blair-when fit.
Mike Catt at Inside Centre is perhaps your most entertaining suggestion: d'arcy (when played in his correct position) has been fantastic this year, and even a largely lack-lustre Jauzion is streets above catty. And finally Patterson at full-back is not a good option (this from a scotland fan), despite his robotic accuracy, his defense is not good enough- Poitrenaud, Lewsey or why don't you dig out Rory Underwood? Resurrecting past greats seems a uniquely peculiar English past-time.
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A lot of talk recently on the whole bonus points system and although Ireland would've won it had it been in force, I don't think you can change it.
We just had the most exciting end to a six nations for as long as i can remember and we didn't need bonus points for that so why bother?
Also, some of these teams are shocking, just shocking. Did anyone actually watch the whole of the six nations?
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#5 You really don't like the English do you?
Ireland have progressed form 2nd to 2nd, so no progress really. Irelnad looked a lot more shaky this season than last and a few cracks are starting to appear.
Italy won 2 games for the first time, progress.
England were up and down, new coach, new team a few sparkling moments (i.e beating France at home) and a couple of shockers, not being able to win on the road!!!!
Scotland haven;t changed for 20 years, if you give them a chance they'll spoil all day and make you look average.
Wales like a mirror image of England, inconsistent, poor selection etc.
France, most consistent team of all turned the screw when neccessary but fell asleep (as every year)for 40 mins.
I was interested to see Stephen Jones's world cup rankings in Yesterday's Times. He had Argentina in 4th. In my reckoning, that means Ireland don't make it out of their Pool. I think I'd agree with him. It's a tough break but to win the cup you have to beat the best.
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My 6 Nations 1st and 2nd selection.
15.Poitrenaud / Dempsey
14.Hickie /Lamont
13.D'Arcy / Jauzion
12.O'Driscoll / Hook
11.Clerc / Horgan
10.O'Gara / Skrela
9. Mignoni / Stringer
8. Leamy / Parisse
7. Wallace (player if the Tournament) / Burgamasso
6. Easterby / Taylor
5. Nallet / Wyn Jones or O'Callaghan.
4. O'Connell / Bortolomi
3. Hayes / DeVilliers
2. Ibanez / Best
1. Andrea Lo Cicero / Horan
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Why are people suddenly thinking Martin Corry is a top class number 5? Luke Swan - are you serious? If you picked a lions team now would you honestly put Corry as your first choice second row? Ahead of....... O'Callaghan, Murray, Hines, Wyn-Jones, Gough, Sidoli, C0ckbain, O'Driscoll, Borthwick?
Pull the other one.
And Catt over D'Arcy? Behave.
Paterson at Full Back? He is a good kicker, yes, but my gran would offer more in attack at full back.
George Chuter?! Lord of lords.....
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I thought it was an enthralling and open 6N, but ultimately lacking in world-class rugby. I didn't see anything other than brief flashes from the Irish (especially against England) that would worry the All Blacks.
In short - England (and I'm an England fan), very inconsistent but hopefully on the "up", 3rd in 6N probably fair. A lot still to do.
France - deserved winners, played reasonably well except against England. Can still grind out a result when playing badly.
Ireland - I think they were desparately disappointing. If I was an Irish fan I'd be furious. Should have won the Grand Slam but choked against France. Should have won the 6N but lack of professionalism gave away a championship-losing try to Italy. The were by some distance the best northern hemisphere team during 2nd half 2006, but did not show that. Not as good as the hype.
Wales - very mediocre except against England when desparate to avoid the whitewash and wooden spoon. Why didnt they play like that during the rest of the 6N? What happened to the grand slam form?
Scotland - sorry, but making up the numbers
Italy - played well above their expectations and deserved their results.
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I watched all the Scotland games and what fustrated me the most was how rubbish we were at the re-starts. Everysingle time we scored we seem to put ourselves back under pressure by gifting back possesion just outside the 22.
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Team of tournament (Not reputation) (B&I in brackets)
Milloud (Hayes)
Ibanez (Best)
Nieto (Horseman)
Nallet (O'Connell)
Bortalami (Alwyn Jones)
Eaterby
Wallace
Leamy
Mignoni (Peel)
Skrela (O'Gara)
Hickie
D'Arcy
O'Driscoll
Clerc (Lamont)
Paterson
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My team would be :-
1. Milloud (Fra)
2. Best (must be doing something to keep out Flannery)
3. Horsman
4. O'Connell
5. Bortolami
6. Harinordoquy
7. Wallace
8. Parisse
9. Peel/Ellis
10. Hook
11. Clerc
12. D'Arcy
13. BOD
14. Lamont
15. Poitrenaud
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Well as a French man I got really excited by the game, as DaveM wrote France was lucky, this last try against Scotland shouldn't have been granted. Don't understand on which basis the Irish ref took his decision. Anyway I'm not going to complain am I?
Regarding the WC I'm writing France side off. The French coach Mr Laporte keeps making stupid decisions and then blaming the players when things go wrong.
England has many young players emerging and along with some experienced players they may well create a surprise.
Ireland once again has been really disappointing. The main problem they will face at the WC is the lack of good players on their bench.
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At last another person who struggles with Butler. Funnily enough he was better in the england Wales game. As for Moore I have no problems he calls it as he sees it and he apologised a number of times when the camera showed he was wrong - and he got more right than Donal Courtney or Mr Joubert!!
I'm a Scot but Moore transfers lots regarding the dark arts that others can't.
However we Scots seem to have produced another excellent commentator in Andrew Cotter.
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A entertaining tournament indeed. But all in all it is the All Blacks that will be happy. Even France or Ireland at their best are not quite there. A promising world cup though.
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I have to say that in all of the six nations teams posted I was disappointed to see that (and correct me if I'm wrong) the top try scorer for the tournament was left out. Has everyone forgotton Jason "4 tries" Robinson????
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As with last year I'm a Scotsman amazed at how you all love Lamont out there. I have to admit he improved as the championship moved on..........but.......and a huge one.
He cannot kick (similar to Danielli cept at least he knows it. Therefore the wonderful counter attacking. Name me a side tho that does not expect its full backs to be covered by the wing? Lamont can't do this.
However my new master plan for Scotland is aimed to give the spark in midfield.
So how about
9.Blair/Lawson/Cursiter
10.Paterson (or Ross?)
11.Webster (When fit)
12.Dewey
13.Lamont S
14.Walker/Lamont R
15.Southwell (When fit)
Probably only Scots qualified to comment or Welshmen - on Walker and MacLeod for 2nd row.
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Ireland have lots of work to do before the World Cup. Dominance in the set piece is crucial and they were too inconsistent. Another key area is leadership. As alluded to already, the pack and backs are at sea when either POC or BOD is out of the picture.
As general footballing skills go, they are impressive but that's not enough.
Scrum-half is a major issue if Ireland are to get to the next level. Second phase passing
from the breakdown is sub-stanard and O'Driscoll can't be relied on to take hospital passes off Stringer
indefinitely. Best should be given opportunity asap. Apart from France, nothing coming through to provide hope for Northern Hemisphere teams.
For the World Cup, I hope the 6N sides don't over-respect the ABs. Graham Henry would have
prepared them to make a statement and given his time here, was likley to want
to prove his credentials. Every team has a weakness which can be exploited. The key to taking them is probably go old style and batter and bruise and hopefully
last it down to the wire. Over-reliance on Carter for sure. If I was a flanker I'd
be looking forward to it...
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Ireland have only themselves to blame for not winning the Grand Slam . Lack of concentration in two games , the bungled restart after taking the lead against France (a basic skill) and A no 8 taking a tap penalty from his own 22 without consulting those around him . Common denominator is Brian O Driscoll was not on the pitch when both these lapses occured. We have made giant strides this last couple of years , but,we do not have the strength in depth in key positions .If Paul O Connell or O Driscoll or Darcy get injured we will drop from worthy WC Candidates to Quarter Finalist at best .
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6 N team
15 Poitrenaud
14 Horgan
13 O'Driscoll
12 D'Arcy
11 Strettle
10 O'Gara
9 Mignoni
1 Milloud
2 Ibanez
3 Castrogiavanni
4 Wyn-Jones
5 O'Connell
6 Easterby
7 Wallace
8 Parisse
Bench
Robinson
Skrela
Ellis
Jenkins
Best R
Nallet
Williams M
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One of the best tactical decisions of the tournament for me was by Bryan Ashton, moving Correy to second row, although I would have moved him to prop - his extra height lifting in the line-out would be great. He would also be good in the centre because he is good at making the "hard -yards".
I think the Azzuri have been another success story, they should be in the 6 Nations more often.
I think they have an outside chance of winning the World Cup in 2008
Allez le blue
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Exciting finish yes, but the quality of the 6N has dropped, NZ, SA & Australia must be rubbing their hands with joy for the World Cup. France deserved winners, but flattered to decieve once again.Ireland didn't live up to their pre-tournament hype, England game apart and the rest were generally poor. England can take some crumb of comfort from an improvement from a dismal autumn. As for the individuals people have picked, John Hayes? Ahead of the entire french and italian front row i think not, that must have been a guiness fuelled pick. And yes David Wallace one of, if not the player of the tournament.
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To Will T, post 36: Luke Swan waspicking a Lions team, so Ibanez, the Italian front row, Bortolami, Mignoni, Troncon et al. don't make it!
Even so, Catt over D'Arcy and Ellis over Peel?? I don't think so!
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Well, I thought it was all great. Apart from one key area...
In football, the managers are always complaining that the "referees aren't consistent enough". On Saturday the referees were very consistent. Consistently bad.
This is added to the fact the touch judges seem to have been forced to watch the Blackadder Goes Forth episode where they are only allowed to speak when the referee tells them they can. In all three cases "Permission denied!"
There were some shocking decisions in each game which ruined things for me.
Italy v Ireland
Great game, with the Italians and Irish playing great rugby and not giving up and playing to the final whistle. The Irish are to be commended for playing the ball and keeping it alive after the time ran out. As are the Italians. However, the Italian try was clearly a double movement, and everyone in the pub I was in could see it, how could the TMO miss it?
France v Scotland
Good rugby again from both sides, soured by some very questionable decisions. How could the touch judge tell the referee it was Sean Lamont who committed the late tackle when Chris Paterson did it in front of him? A shocking decision, but not quite as bad as the Irish TMO who decided Elvis Vermuelen grounded the ball cleanly. Again, all in the pub could see a double movement after two additional French players jumped on top of Vermuelen and the unfortunate and brave Scottish flanker who had his arm underneath the ball.
Wales v England
Great start by the Welsh, poor by England, but turned into a really close enjoyable game or would have done if Alain Rollaind had not been the referee. How can you award a knock-on when the ball hits someone's shin? How can you award a knock-on when a player drops the ball and it goes behind him through his legs? How can you penalise a player for going through the middle of a ruck (not round the side) when the ball has been touched and sits there invitingly?
Again all the pub could see these mistakes (after four odd hours of solid drinking), how can the touch judges be so anonymous and the referees get it so wrong?
All three winners on Saturday deserved their wins in each of the games, and the competition I think has made great strides over the last couple of years to be much more competitive. the Italians have been superb this year, and Sergio Parresi gets my player of the tournament, with Alun Wyn Jones getting the young player of the tournament.
Please, please, please can Syd Millar 'fix it for me' and get the all the touch judges together and remind them to use their brains a bit more next year, the TMO's to have a refresher course (possibly down the pub watching rugby), and the referees to learn to trust going to the touch judges for help - as it will make the tournament much more enjoyable for everyone.
Yours, a slightly more hopeful England supporter than before the Six Nations, but equally available to be a new TMO - I couldn't get it much worse...
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A very entertaining six nations. It is definitely one of the more interesting tournaments around, and saturdays games were a fitting climax!!
Scotland 1st- my trips to murrayfield this year and in the autumn have done nothing to fill me with any optimism for the coming RWC. From the 2nd half of the pacific islanders match onward we have been very poor. We are lacking in every department against every team we play and its only through grit and heart that we don't get humped every game. Our players also seem to be the only guys who don't realise that nobody cares if you take steroids or HGH in rugby. Small, weak, slow and fighting a losing battle.
The Irish threw this one away. In Dublin and with the late try in Rome, but do seem to be the 6N side that will have the best shot at the All Blacks come the autumn, assuming their talismans stay fit. Kings of the forward pass though- does that rule even exist these days.
Great to see the Italians on their way up, if this continues then the 6N will continue to be a cracking tournament. Certainly considering a trip to Rome and Biarittz to see if the Scots can get some revenge.
The English were lumbering and the Welsh inconsistent but both are a worry if they get going and in Englands case have a fully fit squad.
The French well they are the champions and with home field advantage should do well at the world cup, but based on their capitulation at twickenham, i don't see them being as much of a threat to the southern hemisphere sides as the Irish will be.
PS If anyone finds my remarks about steroids/hgh inflammatory don't kid yourself. Just be content that its a level playing field pretty much and that Bigger, faster, stronger players make for a more entertaining sport.
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Whats with everyone selecting Hook at 10?
Did you actually watch the 6 nations or have you just read about the last round of games?
OGara was far and away the best 10 in the tournament, he scored a lot of points, was spot on with his kicking game (mostly) and, for the first time in the 6N, he scored a lot of tries, proving hes not just a kicking machine, never mind the best 10 in the tournament, surely a contender for player of the tournament.
Also Skrela looked really solid for France, proving himself as a world class 10.
Hook on the other hand (dont get me wrong, he's an awesome player and no doubt will grace the world stage for years to come) plays one decent game and gets voted best 10 of the tournament??? has everyone forgotton Wales lost all but one game?
And someone with Hardywhatsit at 8? (or worse, at 6)....whats the matter with you people?....Leamy and Parrisse were miles better, parisse for me would shade that one.
one with Ellis above Peel (Mignoni was head and shoulders better than both) more delusion, Ellis had one decent game against Scotland, but he's well short of International standard. Stringer has also conclusively proved he is not up to it, his service is just poor.
Another non Rugby watcher putting Martin Williams in at 7, Wallace was another in contention for Player of the tournament.
I could go on forever, but ill stop there.
In conclusion, Ireland threw it away, France probably deserved it, but both of these irrelevant compared to the emergence of Italy as a genuine contender in the 6N, and with a good few world class players tucked away in their ranks, it looks set to get better and better for them, well done Italy!
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This year Irish fans were genuinely disappointed due to the way they lost to the French. However, I think Ireland have much more to be pleased about than people think. Whilst a moment of stupidty cost them the French game we were pushing France without BOD and Stringer. The ease we put away poor teams especially England was also encouraging. And whilst performing well against Wales and Scotland we still ground out victories. Clearly we don't have the pool of players that France, NZ or even SA do but our back up continues. Most crucially of all was the performance of Ronan O'Gara - who was the most consistent player in the Irish team and was outstanding against France. People used to think the half backs were our achilles heel - I would say now they are our backbone. No doubt that our pool doesn't not favour progression which is unfortunate (not ony for us but also France/Argentina) and we will lose people to fitness so a bit of luck is required. In the meantime lets get the cotton wool out!
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Re:Post #30
Totally agree about Brian Moore. I don't think he's particularly biased, certainly not like certain Welsh commentators and pundits.
He call it as he sees it, either for or against England, and there's many like him in rugby club bars the length and breadth of the land - the "shoeing" incident 2 weeks ago; do you really think anyone who has played the game in the forwards over the years would disagree with his sentiments and observations?
Then on saturday, after Eddie Butler had come out with some totally fatuous piece of drivel about the linesman, when Moore responded with his "feel free not to burden me with any more of your irrelevant comments", well, I nearly dropped my Guiness !!
Overall thoughts:
Ireland - lost a grand slam and a championship that were theirs for the taking, but still the best NH side at the moment IMHO.
France - failed to turn up at Twickenham and paid the price. Despite their newly found determination, games like that against England will cost them in the RWC.
England - Improving, but not enough to retain the RWC. Stick with the youngsters, draft in more after RWC and then watch 'em go in 2011.
Italy - bloody well done! Need to sort out the discipline but deserved all they got this year. Looking forward to a possible trip to Rome next year!
Wales - said it all last week, too good a side to go through the 6N without a win, and when they moved Hook to fly half, the writing was on the wall for us. However, they should have won by more than they did and they've got to do something about Shane Williams' ego!!
Scotland - good in parts, still some excellent players (White, Patterson, Taylor, Lamont), but they badly need a confidence boosting win to get them firing again. When they're "picking and going" with confidence and speed there's not many better at it.
For the RWC, can't see England getting past the semis, but I'd love to be proved wrong. Next hope would be for Ireland to win it, lovely people, sporting crowds, brilliant "craic" and the current crop of players have given them their best team and chance since the RWC started.
Slainte !!!!
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Here is my assessment:
France - Had a good run knowing they really needed to perform with a home WC coming up. As always showing their hand as the unknown quantity still seems to pay dividends for them on a regular basis. Deserved champs.
Ireland - seemingly over rated from the start, i dont think a grand slam was ever on the cards with just the 2 good results against england + italy. A veritable bevvy of dodgy refereeing decisions saw them both loose out on the title, and by the same token helped them sneak wins that they might not have achieved on merit alone, so its very much horses for courses and found success in the triple crown.
Scotland - swapped their usual single 6N win from Italy to Wales, however performed well against ireland, seem to be lacking direction over the last few seasons. Probably more open questions than answers gained, is Hadden the man for the job? Im not sure at this juncture.
England - seem to be going sideways rather than forward or backward. I think this can only be expected with a new coach, plus a change of 11 starting players between the ireland and france game showed in the result of which that not only is there an underlying talent in the team, but also that concrete selection is still up in the air. I think the WC for them will either go really badly or really well.
Italy - did well this year to secure the two results, the hard part now is to gain these results consistently. Troncon masterminded the wins but wont be there for much longer, i really hope it is not not a flash in the pan but with some of the other 6N teams under performing this year, i really think they will have to make a marked improvement over the next couple of years to allow for the consistent results.
Wales - Under performing Stephen Jones and lack of G Thomas' leadership made them look hopeless at times, a slight tweak of that made them go from the ridiculous to the sublime (in patches). Still chasing after their 2005 form, and with so many injuries in 2006 you can argue that only recently is the 2005 team is back out on the pitch. And while a single win is not much to gloat about, perhaps winning your final match is better than winning your first and losing all matches there after.
The match officials - very poor this year, not sure they have the quality to be considered for the 6N competition. Far too many situations where it was not just down to interpretation, rather clear misunderstanding of clear and distinct rules in the book. In any job where you are getting paid, if you don't perform you either get fired or at least disciplined. I think between having a referee, linesmen and a video ref there are no excuses, referees should be held accountable!
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An exciting tournament, but not a quality one. The only team that did well were the Azzuri, France were a bit lucky, but Vincent Clerc showed a lot of promise. Ireland were unlucky, but really could have and should have done better. England went from being rubbish under Robinson to having a little promise about them. Wales were a bit unlucky but it seemed that they were unorganised, once they get that right they will be hard to beat, by northern hemisphere teams anyway. The real winners from this tornament are the southern hemisphere teams. The 6N teams would not have posed them any real worries to what they will be facing. All in all I feel sorry for argentina the most, why do they always happen to be in a group of death for world cups? Sometimes I feel a proper seeding should be how the world cup groups are made. Can't wait to see what the springboks are going to do in the world cup though, in my view they have the best up and coming youngster in the world, Francois Steyn. All that being said, the kiwis will more than likely win the world cup, but how many years has that been said and failed to happen??
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To No38 Lee, The improvement from 2nd to 2nd is to do with how the Irish played this tournament and how much the scored this time around. No I have no problem anymore with the English. I got over that chip on my shoulder a long time ago. Sounds as if some of your guys are building one up on theirs. ... Yes the Irish should have done better. We are not calling for anyones head. I understand it's sport. My comment was about an English rugby team that won the WC for years ago and has gone steadily down hill since. If the Irish were truly dissappointing and choked and were unprofessional, and nothing to worry the All Blacks then it speaks volumes about how far the English rugby team has gone down. Consider that for a moment before hoping on the high 'RED RUM'. All things considered, perhaps they were happy with the 3rd place position? The World Champions? com'on. Ireland lost the competition by a single try, over 5 games.
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i wrote post 25, and i was floating a possible idea for the future about introducing bonus points, not suggesting you change the rules for 2007 and take the trophy back from the french. DOH!
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I think when all 6 nations have calmed down it's the Scots who will have the fewest positives to take from this tournament. A marginally better performance against France can't disguise the fact that as soon as they give the ball to their backs they seem to be totally ineffective or just make stupid mistakes. You can't play route 1 rugby for the entire 80 minutes. By far the bluntest attack in the 6N.
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A lot of poor team selections above I'm afraid, though Jock High has it nearly right: (Lions in brackets where applicable)
Milloud (?)
Ibanez (?)
Nieto (?)
Bortolami (Palmer)
O'Connell
Taylor
Wallace
Parisse (Leamy)
Mignoni (Peel)
O'Gara
Hickie
Darcy
O'Driscoll
Horgan
Dempsey
Whoever put Catt over Darcy is plain stupid the world's in-form 3/4, Catt is error-prone and slow.
Jauzion and Lamont were excellent on Saturday, and were close for my team. Dempsey almost by default as no other 15 did anything of note. I can't decide on B&I front rowers as they have all had good and bad games this term.. e.g. the Scottish were excellent in the tight against Ireland but got stuffed by France.
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Can everyone go easy for a bit on the TMO in the France game. Probably you were watching in the pub and so didn't hear the ref over the mic. The TMO didn't 'award' the try at all - the ref said he thought he'd seen the grounding and asked the TMO to tell him if he'd seen any problems with it. Seeing as you couldn't possibly see anything on the replays (and presumably the TMO told the ref that) the decision was down to the ref, who awarded the try. Still not sure how he saw anything, but still, it wasn't the TMO.
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Why on earth do English supporters still think Matthew Tait is world class and in the league of O'Driscoll and Guscott. Neither of which have been embarassed on a rugby pitch like Tait was in Cardiff 2 years ago. English supporters need to accept that Tait, flood, Noon and Deacon are just not up to scratch and will never cut it at international level. Neither of which have done much in the guiness premiership either.
Tom Rees, Strettle, Geharty on the other hand look promissing.
From a Welsh fan
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53 - I thought it was a double movement but Di Maringy made his second movement when there was no one touching him so he had every right to move?
Will T - 36 - in defence of Luke Swan, it was a lions team he was selecting, not a 6N team
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An exciting championship but depressing for me as an English fan and for northern hemisphere in general.
France deserved to win the title. They have the best 15 and the best squad.
I cannot tell you how annoying it is to be an England fan at the moment. We have a squad of players who should have taken us well down the road of recovery and moved us into the top 5 in the world rankings. This would have been excellent preperation for the WC defence.
As it is, the players just down look up for it. It seems like they need a huniliating loss for motivation. I don't know where we are at the moment; some people need to get their head in gear.
As for northern hemisphere in general, this championship just highlighted the gulf in quality between NH and SH. France are the only contenders in my opinion and a large part of that is to do with home support.
Ireland have a decent back line but I haven't seen evidence that they can consistently put in the performances of the intensity needed to win a WC. When you cannot win the 6N in the same year as a WC then it does not bode well for your chances. Probably looking at finishing second in the group and then getting smashed by the AB's.
England have no chance. Absolutely none. We'll probably scramble through the group then get walloped by Australia (because we wont be up for it, it's only the WC after all).
So just to sum up the championship:
Scotland - played quite well at times actually. It was just that half against Italy which put a downer on their championship.
Wales - maybe if they just imagined that every other team was England then they'd play to their obvious potential.
Italy - the big winners this year. Taken the step from just having big clunking forwards to actually using them effectively in a game plan. Parisse is a class player. Be hard to improve next year though.
England - dear oh dear. Gave experience to some promising youngsters but the commitment and consistency is abysmal. Miles away from where we should be.
Ireland - one great game against England. The centre partnership showed it's class again but the simple fact is that if they want to move forward then they need to bring their best game to every game and they just aren't doing that.
France - the winners again and deservedly so. A very good squad with excellent strength in depth. Used the championship as a stepping stone for the WC. They will be there abouts in the closing stages but on that performance they will do well to win it.
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Scotland's biggest problem in the championship was the fact that they did not have a consistent half-back partnership. That, in my opinion is due to the indecision over fly-half - quite clearly Godman is not up to the task. Parks for me can be an excellent kicker but offers very little else - for me we have to play Paterson at 10. He at least offers some more attacking options - he is wasted at full-back or the wings where he does not have the pace required.
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1. Milloud
2. Ibanez
3. Nieto
4. Wyn-Jones
5. O'Connell
6. Wallace
7. Easterby
8. Parrisse
9. Mignoni
10. O'Gara
11. Strettle
12. Darcy
13. O'Driscoll
14. Horgan
15. Poitrenaud
What is with people who see someone play one game and all of a sudden they are world class and genius?
Also, to the guy who was complaining about the refs. The Italy score at the end was not a double movement. The ball was touching the line on his first stretch.
As for the French try, the ref said to the video ref "Is there any reason why I cannot award the try?" Seeing as how on all the replays the video ref couldn't see anything to do with the grounding, he couldn't tell him not to award the try. Correct decision.
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Unfortunately, the debate about the best backs in the competition is crazy. The best backs seem to always come from behind the best pack, funny that (scotland fans please forgive me, this does not apply to you). One week Wilkinson was a hero behind an inform pack, the next against Ireland he reminded me of Dan Parks. The Welsh backs have traditionally been strong and showed their hand again against England after the pack finally delivered more than 34% of the ball.Before this they seemed ponderous and second rate.
The interesting question is.. Wilkinson or Flood/Geherty? How quick some people forget goof old Jonny.
Finally, i think i saw the worst international performance from a scrum half on Saturday when Shaun Perry came off the bench.. what was wrong with him???
It ranked alongside Luger in the RWC 1/4 final and Henson against Ireland last year.
Surely there is better... I know a lad playing for Trimbles U14's who would do a better job.
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No, the All Blacks won't be quaking in their boots but they've gone into nearly every WC as favourites and mostly failed to live up to expectations. As an Englishman, before the Six Nations I had no hope. Now, I have hope. Okay, it's a slim chance but at least we have a chance. And we have most room/potential for improvement between now and the tournament. Strettle, Rees, Easter and Geraghty show the skills and desire I thought were lacking. If Sheridan, Vickery and Stevens come back with a vengeace we can start with a steadier platform and you never know. One player who deserves praise is Jason Robinson. Three chances, three tries - that's what it's about at this level. He has the hunger back and our opponents know it.
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Thoroughly enjoyable series. I think every team provided moments for their fans to be proud of. Overall I think Irish are the best current team, closely followed by the French, although the final table says different. The Welsh could be a force again with some tweaking and strengthening. The Scots need a little more work but I saw better spirit this year. Italy, lucky to beat Wales, but generally very impressive. England face a harder task than most because of the pressure they and the media put them under. Zurich prem does not produce expansive and creative players and I therefore fear for their World Cup.
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Ref post 18.
The referee saw it grounded and asked the TMO to confirm. So it wasn't down to an Irishman to decide. "Any reason not to award the try" was Joubert's question.
The other point that people seem to miss is that the referee's and their teams really don't care who wins. Blame them all you like, but the vast over whelming majority of the time, they are right. If you added up all the mistakes all of them made over the whole 6N, they still collectively made fewer errors than Shane Williams did on Saturday! (For which, as an Englishman, I am very grateful)!!
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Re post 53
I think post 53 has got a good point. Moving Corry to prop would give a significant advantage in the line out. I also agree that he could play centre, although i would put him at outside centre. It is plainly clear to everyone that once again Tait failed to live up to the hype. I think corry could do the job. Lets face it he has got better hands than Tindal and he is deceptively quick. It makes sense when you think about it. Farrell and Corry in the centres a daunting prospect for any team playing England!
Also I think everyone has got it wrong with their choice at scrum half. What about Stringer and Troncon? No one can deny that Ellis and peel offer a fraction of the danger that Stringer causes round the fringes. Having said that i would go with Troncon (for me the find of the six nations). He really does look like one to watch for the future.
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Best Coach - B Ashton - always thinking out of the box and prevented England getting wooden spoon - has conjured something approaching a back-lne with strong previously un-blooded half-backs and a decent strike force on wings - centres stil bedding in - forwads - not my speciality and I don't know why they have gone back so far in relation to others - but plainly work in progress with some progress
Best Team of Championship - France - looked more cohesive than most French sides although why did they not play against England? bizarre - good half-backs and good options in backs and if Skrela had kicked like he did the rest of the tournament Ireland would have been dead and buried in Dublin.
Scotland - kinda getting there - bizarre belief in their limited ability - long on scrum halves and short on fly halves - and don't use Lamont as much as they might as who else is there? - but will improve especially in pack
Wales - don't understand Welsh rugby - some good forwards and some goodish backs but seem completely driven on by their emotional state of mind
Italy - like Argentia used to be for me - great forwards but once you wear them a bit get play into the backs as Ireland did they aren't half as good. But great move forward for them and they do play to their strengths.
Ireland - my team - continue to show they have the best all-round side in these islands but selections and secondary selections are a worry - Horgan is not the third best centre in Ireland - surely completely proved now (no matter how effective a wing) - where is the second row back up ? - second choice half-backs as good as first choice but no proper rotation as still too dependent on goal-kicking - failed to develop Best, Trimble and others on bench and elsewhere who have the talent and may be needed in World Cup - and may be more importantly the leadership missing on a few occasions..... if Skrela had kicked OK their championship might never have started - and what do we know that we didn't know before ? and no idea of best options if key men are absent....
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in response to post 61, we have no chip on our shoulders, but i think everyone was hoping that the 6N would end with some genuine contenders for winning the WC. Instead we have re-inforced how far apart the All Blacks are at the moment. The Irish are a good side as the defeat of England proved. Outstanding back row and backline (scum half apart) but front row frailties, someone to partner O'Connell and a lack of a classy replacements bench mean that the Irish along with the rest of the 6N teams are way behind the southern hemisphere. I'd hate to see the cheating bullying Kiwis win but can you see it going anywhere else?
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For post no 26, my best newcomer 15 would be the following, with gaps in a few positions where there were no stand out new comers that come to mind:
1.
2. R Best
3. E Murray
4. L Nallet
5. A Wyn Jones
6.
7. T Rees
8. D Callum
9. P Mignoni
10. J Hook
11.
12. D Skrela
13. R Dewey
14. D Strettle
15.
While Hook played most of his games at 12 and Skrela was France's 10 I feel that if they were to fit into the same 15 they would be better switching.
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ed2003 spot on with most of your comments.. it really is annoyong that ireland are now being criticised for some admittedly below par performances. however we won the matches except for the france which believe me hurts! however at least ireland are consistently winning as opposed to teams playing well one week and then losing the next match! i agree ireland need to play much better rugby but to be honest i'm not that worried. france deserved the championship but we ended up with same amount of points as them and they also lost a match!not much between us really. also i reckon england can only improve with time.
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As Long As We Beat The English
We don't wanna be your enemy,
But when we're on the field,
It's red, white and green,
Get beat by the Irish,
Get beat by the Scots,
The French ought'ta struggle,
But you're the one we want,
We want...
As long as we beat the English,
As long as we beat the English,
As long as we beat the English,
we don't care
As long as we beat the English,
As long as we beat the English,
As long as we beat the English,
we don't care
We don't care
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No 67 - De Marigny Try was clearly double movement. You are allowed to make one movement in any direction when you are grounded his first movement did not make the tryline and thus his second amounted to holding on. When you are floored by tackle you must release the ball. No. Anyway it is irrelevant France may have gone for it even more. THere is no doubt that Ireland lost the championship - the French did not win it. They were lucky to beat Ireland, they were pump against england and even against Wales they were poor.
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Ref:- Ed2003
If Di Maringy was already touching the line after his 'first stretch' why bother stretching again?
How could the referee see a good grounding if every possible tv angle going didn't show one? The referee asked the wrong question. Therefore, it was the wrong decision all round.
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Strange as it may seem, as a french supporter, I'm left frustrated by this tournament. No NH team is likely to trouble the All Blacks, not even the brave irish.
Scoland's squad is far too limited to threaten any serious opponent for more than 15 mn.
Italy has eventually reached standards worthy of the tournament, after being almost everyone's punching ball over the past years. Berbizier surely deserves some praise for this achievement.
Wales has indeed a real potential, far superior to their results this year, and might just be the surprise team next autumn, but I can't see them get past the semi-finals.
England has improved, but they were so abysmal last autumn that they couldn't possibly get any worse, could they ?. Strettle is a real find, let him confirm before we call him a genius, and Ellis is a world class scrum-half (but name a top 10 team who hasn't got a world class scum-half, even Scotland has Cusiter...) Their win against France was promising, but France produced on that day such a miserable display that I'm pretty sure many other teams would have beaten us fair and square. And I simply cannot believe that England's success rests on Mike Catt...
Ireland are often a joy to watch, they are on the verge of stealing the word "flair" from the french, they have a strong mobile pack and are definitely a contender to play a major role in the world cup...but they have a major weakness : they depend far too much on BOD, O'Gara and Stringer. Another problem is obviously that they'll have to beat both France and Argentina to avoid NZ , and that's a high mountain to climb.
Last but not least, France, remains as ever an enigma. They seem to have in their DNA the gene of inconsistency and you never know which side will show up. Good news is that they can rely on a squad of around 30 top-level players, which means that no injury would be a major disaster (a main difference with Ireland) Mignoni and Clerc have shown true class, and with the return of the likes of Marconnet, Pelous, Martin, Nyanga, and Michalak (provided he brings his kicking boots), well I'm confident that on home soil, we can just beat anyone, that is but the big fast monsters in black....
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This wasn't a bad blog until very recently, even funny at times, but I never realised the depth of losers out there when I hear the usual and boring references: 'paddies' and 'froggies' - borne out out of a deep frustration no doubt.
There's no such thing as Celtic nations vs. English.
Despite Ireland's obvious limitations, if you can't see them in Wales, you must have been following football for the last 20 years my friend.
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Do the England team forwards actualy practise catching a rugby ball? They are also way to slow.
England have Backs with great potential, just need to get the ball to them.Do not play Shaun Perry ever again & find an insperational Captain.
Funny how no one ever mentions Charlie Hodgson, he's great.
Ireland: great when firing on all cylinders & BOD not injured.Lack depth on bench.
Scotland: Need Jason White back.
France: Potential WC Winners
Italy: Good to see them getting better
Wales: Could do better, see me after!
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Catt ahead of Darcy for the Lions!!?? And just to show I'm not a one-eyed Irishman, if we are talking of a team of the tournament, I think Marty is worth the other centre spot ahead of O'Driscoll. Lets look beyond the reputations sometimes.
One other point: anyone, such as Mark Reason of the Sunday Telegraph, who can leave Wallace out of his team of the tournament needs to seek urgent medical help!!
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Although the championship did not go our way i still feel Ireland have to be proud of their acheivements. We needed a lot of points and decided we needed another try and paid the price but thats life, Ireland were positive and played well crucially under pressure which bodes well for the world cup as Irish teams in the past didn't seem to have the bottle for the fight, ie. france in the 2003 world cup. Roll on September, C'mon Ireland.
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In answer to Jack Lawrence (post 2)
How can you say that Stephen Jones should retire??????
James Hook is a 10 and he plays his best rugby at 10 better than he plays at 12 in my opinion.
Stephen Jones is still a great outside half and is only 29 now we have 2 world class outside half's in the squad either of which could play at 12, with a world cup this year and a tour to Australia both players will be used and needed.
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Bring on the Blacks one of the NH teams will beat them I am sure in the WC,Munster for another Heineken Cup and Ireland for next years 6N,it was a great tournament for me ,listening far away ,refs will always make mistakes thats part of the game too. Long live rugby, best sport in the world by far , gotta put up with ice hockey and dog mushing here,its going to be a long six months til the WC.
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Re: 34 Howard Pothecary...
So thats what hardcore drugs do to you, you lose all sight of reality...I would say what i totally disagree with in your selection but i reckon it'd be far quicker to mention the few you have chosen with any kind of 'debatable' merit...Ibanez, Harinordoquy, O'Gara, Poitreanaud and possibly Robinson...Strettle is certainly one of the finds of the tournament but wasn't really given the chance to shine often enough
Dan 43 i think that team is just about spot on, good to see someone else has been watching the same sport! (though unsure about Paterson)
The centre partnership is the most laughable part of the selection!
Gotta say i don't think enough credits been handed to France's back 3, they have looked immense on the counter and were particularly lethal against Scotland, not giving them a moments rest...disagree with anyone saying no full back has done that well as Poitrenaud has been great and Dempsey has shown his class too
Player of tournament: David Wallace
Finds of tournament: Strettle, Dewey, Italian front line as a unit, the strength in depth of Ireland's back row and the amazingly swift French counter attack
Disasters of tournament: Perry, Stephen Jones, some dodgy umpiring and Scotland's lack of a half decent fly half (Paterson is ok but generally isn't being played there)
Whoever says Ireland have a weak bench take another look...Flannery (quality hooker), Neil Best (surely the most unlucky player of the tournament as would get into any other NH team), Andrew Trimble (fantastic player and great prospect), Malcolm O'Kelly (when fit)...I think Ireland's weakness lies in the props (even though they stood up quite well this tournament) and scrum-half (and i don't think Boss is the answer), everywhere else they look like a sound world class outfit...inconsistency has let ireland down this 6 nations but i reckon they could put in some good performances in the WC and don't think they would get completely battered by NZ if they were to play them
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Why do so many people have it in for Mathew Tait? Granted his attacks may have been limited against Wales, but you can only do so much when you don't have the ball. On the other hand his cover tackling was superb, and he saved England single-handedly on several occasions. He has got to be a better bet than the old trundler Tindall.
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Sorry meant to say the centre partnership is the most laughable part of Howard Pothecary's selection, not Dan's...
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For those saying England should move Corry to Prop - get a life! Do you know anything about rugby? Prop is a very technical position and no way can you simply move a no 8 to prop!
I was pretty impressed he managed to move to the second row though to be honest.
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Darren (#77) - AT LAST SOMEONE SPEAKS SENSE!
I agree too with your suggestion of Troncon, undoubtedly the find of the tournament, give him a world cup or two and he could be deadly!
Jim from Croydon (#78), it sounds as though you would also agree with using Correy as a dynamic and menacing power-house in the centres! He's a surprisingly versatile player as shown by his seamless move into the boiler house.
I think you'll all agree too that Peiter Devilliers is the French unsung hero, his viscious scrummaging skills are the main reason they are the 5 Nations winners (again), and will be instrumental in bringing them the World cup next year. It's a shame he can't be involved in our Lions 1XV (yet)
My 6 Nations line up:
1 DeVilliers
2 Chuter/Ibanez
3 Correy
4 Murray
5 O'Connell
6 Hill
7 Cheval
8 Wallace
9 Troncon
10 Hook
11 Strettle
12 Dewey
13 D'Arcy
14 Patterson
15 Lewsey
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Never before have a seen a team so roundly praised after having 51 points scored against them...
and to top it the team that did is over hyped - get a grip
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As an Ireland supporter I am Slightly disapointed about the fact that As pre tournament favourites we just failed to produce the Goods. On the up side we have shown to be in quite good form going into the world cup with the backs in particular able to produce fantastic rugby from little openings.The WC pool maybe dosen't help but I believe that we can do better than a lot of pundits think. I feel that to be better in the future a few more players are going to have to learn a bit more leadership qualities, as Saturday showed some of the players didn't step up to the mark in time of importance.weaknesses in the front row are a major concern at the moment and possably 2 nd row. We have the best back row unit in the Northern Hemisphere and the back speak for themselves. Alhough I would put G Murphy in at centre iy D'Arcy or O'Driscoll get injured as S Horgan just hasn't got the hands.
Team of the 6 Nations.
15- Dempsey ( postional sense and
angles superb)
14- Clerc ( good runner always looking to run)
13-o'Driscoll ( great defense as well as attacking)
12-D'Arcy ( great of every foot side stepping and always breaks the gain line)
11-S Williams ( speedy and elusive)
10- O'Gara ( great controller and amongst thr try's this season)
9- D Peel ( best in the world )
8- Leamy (fittest backrow forward in the 6N always willing to carry the ball
7-D Wallace ( player of the tournament)
6-S Easterby ( best blind side does a lot of the dirty hard graft well)
5-P O'Connell ( Talisman and great leader
4- Wyn-Jones ( Fantastic athlete and line out jumper
3- Nieto (best scrummager around )
2- Ibanez (Great in the loose)
1- Milloud ( Fantasic player)
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I Agree with item 60. The standard of the officials was not up to the quality of the tournament.Despite the modern technology in use, the teams and spectators have to put up with officials who are only yards away from incidents fail to see them ! As for the most basic rule of rugby, forward passes, we saw many missed forward passes and the whistle blown for passes that were absolutely legal.It's time for the governing bodies to revue what's going on.
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95 - egbert. you're having a laugh right? corry playing prop? I know he moved from back row to second but think that might be step too far...
who's cheval?
hill? hill who? Richard Hill? lord tell me you're taking the mick here.
WILL PEOPLE STOP PICKING JAMES HOOK AS THE BEST NUMBER 10 THIS YEAR? He played one and a bit games there! yes he played well but O'Gara was far superior I cannot stress that enough! Joint top try scorer, top points scorer, 7 points off record in a season. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU ALL?!
Dewey ahead of O'Driscoll? Heaven's above...
Lewsey? LEWSEY??? In case you hadn't noticed he was DROPPED!!! Shame because he is good but things just didn't go his way... Paterson has a great boot on him but other than that he was poor and offered little.
I swear the majority of people here didn't watch the whole thing?
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Someone please tell me what Peel has done this 6 nations? NOTHING.
People wanted Philips in as he offers a more dynamic game. Ellis was excellent against Scotland, France and Wales, and was solid against Italy and Ireland. He falls just behind Mignioni for me, with Troncon behind him and Peel below that.
This natural bias against Ellis has blinded people from seeing three very good performances.
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What are you talking about?
Clearly Troncon had the most influence on any team in the tournament and was head and shoulders above the rest. Peel a good player but has to learn how to win games for his country as above.
No England players in your teams!! But you pick players fromn the lower teams i.e. Wales and Scotland. Get a life.
Robinson, Strettle outstanding - when got the ball. As was DOminici
Otherwise, Martyn Williams unbelievable - close on the best 7 in the world.
Patterson - good at kicks but sadly exposed for lack of pace when breaks were made.
Ibanez - played out of his skin - a true captain
D'Arcy - wow - showed what he could do when allowed to go for it - never seen him in that light before.
other centre Jauzion
French second rows?
no 8? Leamy
Italian props
Stand off - O'Gara - easy that one - did it all this year.
That leaves Full Back - that's the hardest because Poitrinaud was shcoking for 90% and awesome for 10% - is that enough. Not a lot of competition I guess i.e. no Blanco, Irvine etc. perhaps there never will be.
Last spanner - that double movement was a tripple - watch the slow mo - kicks the legs before goes for the line..........
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Chuck
I don't see your team, perhaps provide your own before criticising others.
Cheval is the long-haried French flanker who plays for Newcastle I think (did you not watch the French games?!)- he must be up there at the top of the top try scoring list for a forward - tries win games!
As for Richard Hill - if you compare the games that we (England) have won or lost when Hill is playing, you'll no doubt see that we always win when Hill is playing - WC 2003 for example!
I do agree O'Driscoll is awesome and it was a really tough call, but I just don't think he had as good a tournament as Dewey who looked dangerous whenever he touched the ball from the games I saw. #50 and #80 also seem to agree.
Regarding Correy, I just feel he has proved his versatility and could be considered for other positions in the pack
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All the teams are very interesting and everyone has merits. The big question would be however..
How many of these guys would get in the All Black team?!
Sorry, Just to clarify, I meant the All Black 1st team
I think O'Driscoll and um.. O'Driscoll?!
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In response to 78
Best Coach - Brian Ashton??!
Who are you kidding? Did you forget a certain Pierre Berbizier?
1/100th of the resources of Mr Ashton.
Did good old Brian not reside over the worst English defeat to Ireland in History?
Some season he has had.
Funnily enough, he also resided over the worst Irish defeat by England when in charge of Ireland!
So coach of the season, Ashton oh and Shane Williams to join corry in the front row.
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99 chuck
I started to type and then read yours - best blog of the day!
103 honestly jonnyC if theres one for me its Darcy!
And if you want a second Easterby- made the Lions and keeping Neil Best out of the Irish team.
And if you want a third - Wallace.
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To be honest, Darcy would have a better shout of getting in the All Blacks team than O'Driscoll at the moment on current form. Ellis would not be far off either!
France- overall the strongest side.
Ireland- I fear overrated(hope I'm wrong)
England -young and improving
Italy- battled well
Wales- good showing eventually
Scotland- boring and dull
Looking ahead, I desperately hope Ireland get off to a good start in the WC- I'm just worried about their group, France (in France) and Argentina- whom they lost to in 1999! They just can't be satified about the 2007 6N. Make no mistake - THIS WAS THEIR GRAND SLAM YEAR! They had a cracker jack of a chance ,having France and an inexperienced England side at home but they blew it! They shouldn't have even cared about the title with the whole points difference situation - the fact is they missed their opportunity and the Ultimate prize in NH Rugby, the GRAND SLAM. They should be devastated-I am. Ireland will forever be a nearly made it team team unless polish sides off (and not rely on O'Connel BOD, and O'gara).
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no 100 youre dead right. ellis is fantastic! i'm irish and have to say he was one of the few english to impress v ireland this year! ellis is definitely one to watch- as a munster fan it pains me to say this but he was outstanding for leicester agianst us. ellis is a jewel! theres been gushing about strettle and flood and geraghty but ellis is a real find!
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I understand that Wallace and Easterby have had great seasons, but are you going to drop Collins or McCaw for them?
Ireland are a good side, i have to confess to being slightly disappointed in them this 6Nations. I thought the form they showed against Australia and South Africa was world class and they might challenge NZ in the world cup. However, the 6N indicates that this wont be the case.
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15 Julian White
14 Duncan Jones
13 Colin Farrell (Andys irish film star bro)
12 Eddie Stobart(All over the place and always gets there)
11 Colin Mcrae
10 Tony Blair
9 My plumber (very fast service, hard to get hold of)
8 Shane Williams
7 Honk Kong Fooey (quicker than the human eye)
6 Vinny Jones (capt)
5 Stringer
4 Stringers smaller brother
3 Frankie Dettori
2 Madonna
1 Patterson (he does everything else for Scotland so Im sure hed make a good Prop also.)
So theres my lions team, bit silly I know, but easily more sensible than a lot of the teams on here so far.
There has been a lot of hostility on these blogs of late, dont understand it, banter and well placed comments are fine, but remember, there are English, Scots, Welsh and some Irish guys (not getting into N ireland/ S ireland here) fighting side by side around the Globe together. This is just sport, important yes, but not life or death.
Regards to all, we are the best fans in world sport I believe, lets not lose that.
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I have to say that the author of comment 16 is, im my opinion, deluded. Hook at 10? Perhaps if it was a development squad! Ronan O' Gara was hands down the outstanding 10. The only negative aspect of O'gara's game over the whole 5 matches was his kicking against Italy and this was due to the fact that along with the rest of the Irish team he was totally focused on running the ball. O'gara scored ugly and pretty and top the points list. In contrast to this Hook played at 12 for the first game and got a good schooling from the immense Gordon D'arcy. I find it difficult to justify the inclusion of Hook at No.10, the most influential and controlling position on the park, when all he could orchestrate was a single victory over the below-par England. While I recognise his undoutable talent his inclusion is warrantless. For Ireland I found D'arcy, Leamy, Wallace and O'Connell to be truly immense, I would extend that list to at least 8 but fear that would expose my bias. I took as always great pleasure in watching Shane Horgan he is so unique.
I'm with chuck (posting no.99) all the way, I think some people on this blog are exercising their more creative minds. 'Cheval' is the french word for horse and Chabal is the French No.8 who plays for Sale (not Newcastle Egbert No.102). France seemed to only get out of second gear against Scotland which is worrying for the rest of us but on the otherhand shows their lack of focus is still their achilles' heel.
England Strettle and Ellis apart were poor, if pushed further I could find positives with the youthful Flood and Geraghty, they coped well when given their chance.
Wales whom I usualy love to watch were uninspiring and Scotland despite getting the wooden spoon (which they should be slapped with for letting down their Celtic brothers) were better than the last two champioships. Ireland played all the rugby and were focus, aggressive and clinical in everything they went about bar that one lapse in concentration that allowed Vincent Clerc to scoot in. As much as I enjoy and respect him, John Hayes is not man you want out The backs defending wingers in second+ phase ball. Geordan Murphy as I always suspected might happen was found out against France. He is phisically and mentally found wanting and I fear his inclusion in the Irish World Cup squad as I think his personal disappointment may be slighty infectious.
Finally I think those who say Ireland without O'gara are useless are either unfamiliar or seriously underestimating Paddy Wallace.
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The one thing i have learnt from this 6 nations is tht egbert is either drunk, having a laugh or knows nothing about rugby! lol cheval...horses for courses indeed...
In response to chopper 101 with no England players in these teams i think Robinson would be unlucky not to be in a 6 Nations team but there have been many other quality wingers to choose from like Clerc, Dominici, Hickie, Horgan, Lamont, Strettle...Robinson i don't feel has stood out as much as some of these (maybe he hasn't been given the same opportunity)
Unfortunately as fantastically as Wallace has played i guarantee he still wouldn't get in the NZ team...unless McCaw gets a nasty injury! Reckon both D'Arcy and O'Driscoll would have a chance even against the imperious likes of Nonu, Mauger etc...O'Connell would be up there (though not on general 6 Nations form), possibly Mignoni on form shown this 6 Nations...as well as the wingers have played they would have no chance up against the quality of wingers at NZ's disposal, they'd be fighting to get in their 2nd team squad! Mealamu over Ibanez or Flannery (when fit) and most certainly over Chuter...don't really know the NZ props (or understand front row scrummaging generally tbh!) so maybe milloud in there? i dont know...
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To Greg, post 57:
"Hook plays one decent game and gets voted best 10 of the tournament??? has everyone forgotton Wales lost all but one game?"
Hook only played half of any of the other 4 games - are you suggesting then that he won the Wales/England game alone? Cos you seem to be claiming he's not up to scratch?!
To Ian Churchill, post 59:
Brian Moore is often entertaining, but when he shouts "GO ON!" etc when england have overlap against Ireland he really is a joke, and shows far more absurd bias even than Eddie Butler or Andy Nicol, which is saying something. Having said that, I quite like the partisanship of the different countries' pundits/commentators, as it means there is a subtext of banter.
That is all.
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102 - egbert. I am convinced you are now completely taking the biscuit. For what it's worth I've commented plenty about who shouldn't be in the team on the basis of some of these ludicrous selections - mine will follow at the end of this message.
Cheval - i guess you mean Chabal who plays for Sale and went missing against England, right? And was dropped after that. And didn't play against Wales.
Richard Hill didn't play in the tournament so you cannot include him? unless you are picking a random team of players from recent six nations? Which kind of strikes Chabal/Cheval off the list as he has rarely played for France.
The only scottish back I would consider picking is Lamont because he was the only one who looked dangerous. To say Dewey had a better tournament than O'Driscoll is nonsense.
Here is my team
15. Dempsey - Solid in defence, options in attack.
14. Clerc - dangerous on the ball and scored the try that arguably won France the tournament.
13. O'Driscoll - so important and made the best partnership in world rugby
12. D'Arcy - oozed class. give him an inch, he'll take a mile.
11. Hickie - old legs never showed, still got that pace and very good in defence.
10. O'Gara - joint top try scorer, top points scorer, top scored in every game he played in. no contest.
9. Mignoni - very impressive. proves size isn't everything.
8. Leamy - strong with ball in hand and great off base of the scrum.
7. Wallace - amazing talent. pace, strength, ball carrying, the lot.
6. Easterby - another underrated player. So important to Ireland - does so much unnoticed work.
5. O'Connell - perhaps has too high standards nowadays but when he plays well he plays VERY WELL
4. Bortolami - superb for italians, still so young too. great future.
3. Hayes - targeted as weak spot before six nations but proved nothing of the sort. great lifting, terrific in the loose and steady in the scrum
2. Ibanez - led the french team superbly and line out throwing was strong. top player.
1. Lo Cicero - another star of the Italian pack. scrummaging was great.
I feel a lot of people were picking players on the basis that France won the championship and couldn't think of anyone else - Milloud, Nallet, Poitreneud spring to mind. They played well, yes, but I feel the above selections were better. :P
Robinson almost scraped in - can't sniff at 4 tries - as did David Strettle, a great find. Wyn Jones was also great, would probably make the bench.
Probably a little/a lot biased the above team but I do think Ireland were the best team. They were switched off for 15 mins v France but managed to get back in to the lead and were it not for that 2minutes of madness, well, we all know but that's life.
Slate the above selections all you want but it's a hell of a lot better than having Hook at Fly Half, Paterson at Full Back and Martin blimmin Corry at Tighthead Prop for godsake!!
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110-Top Pundit and 99-Chuck, It seems you have an appreciation for the finer details of the game, well said fellas, although you should probaby lay off 102-Egbert as he's probably just a kid.
Here's a team for you!
15 Girvan Dempsey,
14 Shane Horgan,
13 Brian O'Driscoll,
12 Gordon D'Arcy,
11 Denis Hickie,
10 Ronan O'Gara,
9 Peter Stringer,
8 Denis Leamy,
7 David Wallace,
6 Simon Easterby,
5 Paul O'Connell,
4 Donncha O'Callaghan,
3 John Hayes,
2 Rory Best,
1 Marcus Horan,
I admit not alot of thought went into this one but I'm confident this team would beat any other posted so far.
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obviously the idea of picking a team of the tournament is a bit dim as there were reserves of strength in some positions (openside flanker for example) and little quality in other places (fullback). my way of doing it: best players, in no particular order
Martyn Williams, Sergio Parisse, Sandro Troncon, Pierre Mignoni, Paul O'Connel, Gordon D'Arcy, Marco Bortolami, David Wallace, Alun Wyn Jones, David Skrela, Pieter de Villiers, Lionel Nallet, Cristophe Dominici, Dennis Hickie, Brian O'Driscoll, Ronan O'Gara, Mauro Bergamasco, Martin Castrogiovanni, Andrea lo Cicero, Alix Popham, Chris Patterson, David Strettle, Rafael Ibanez,
a team from that?
MC
RI
AlC
LN
PoC
AP
DW
SP
AT
RoG
CD
GD
BoD
DS
DH
(??)
PdV
AWJ
SP
PM
DS
CP
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Aurora, Worsley? Are bloody joking?
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#109
Well said Dai,
other than Roy of the Rovers 15, your team wins it for me and at least yours gave me a laugh. But your best part is surly that it is only sport, yes the best sport going (unless Dublin beat Kerry in the All Ireland Final)but sport none the less.
Some great blogs, and some spoilt children crying when someone disagrees with their ideal team.
Maybe if New Zealand (and who knows maybe they won't) win the World Cup, then maybe they could play a European 15. And I say a European 15, rather than a NH 15, otherwise the USA will want to join in!
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Perhaps you're right about Mr Wallace at number 7 but wasn't the real foot-shooting on Eddie O'Sullivan's part that he left his best back-row player, Best, on the bench for all 6 nations games? He was Ireland's player of the autumn internationals. Easterby is an experienced player but he's not World Class. I think had Best have started or come on earlier against the French, Ireland could have one that elusive Grand Slam!
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Quickly: great championship and one of the best I've seen. The whole gamut of skills and excitement from excruciating to illuminating.
Brian Moore is the only commentator on the circuit (I know of) as widely admired by his southern hemisphere contemporaries as his northern. Intelligent, articulate and doesn't peddle in nationalistic nonsense like Butler or the Irish bunch.
To say that NZ won't be quaking in their boots by this 6N display is to forget that the All Blacks are famous for their choking on the biggest stage. I defy any team to resist a full 80 minutes of the Welsh onslaught that England had to face. And anyway, silky skills can be quickly reduced to rubble in the face of determined, Moore-ish, bloody-mindedness.
Can't wait for WC kick-off.
Come on England.
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I cannot believe the number of deluded irish fans on these forums. Despite being huge favourites yet again you failed and france won the tournament ! You have a good team who have been playing together for years and can therefore beat teams that are going through development similar to Ireland some years ago ! Unlike England you will not become World Champions and if Ireland were to play the All Blacks tomorrow there would be anyting up to a 20 point margin in my opinion !
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Sorry to join the convo a bit late but all this talk of playing the "best 5 nations team" is absolutely ridiculous. What a surprise that everyone goes for all the flair players with no regard for the consequenses and lack of game structure.
Egbert great shout for Corry at 13 (although personally i'd play him at 15 for his tackling and gain line skills).... at last someone who realises that it's not all about long blond hair and gas.
for me the best 5 nations side would be one that refostered "up ya jumper rugby" once more.....let the boiler room boys get hold of things and roll on the unpretty hard yards.
On that "10 man" basis i think Troncon at 9 complimented by Dan "territory" Parks at 10 and i know its against the rules but bring back Kevin Maggs at 12 for that j'ne sais quoi that all 5 back lines were missing this time round! yet again injury robbs the sport!
Thats the spine of a side that will bring back silverware! FACT
jabba.
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This is my team of the six nations-;
Patterson
S.Williams
Tindall
Dewey
Lamont
Hook
Troncone
Rees
Worsely
Taylor
Corry
Bortalami
Vickery
Best
Horsman
As you see this is a pisstake from the rubbish i just read. Eacj of these were included. Now look at my list and realise how terrible this team actually is. Anyone who can say that Hook will go forward with this pack is havin a laugh!
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JUst wondering what anybody else thought about this.....
In the autumn series of internationals - Ireland had a blindside flanker named Neil Best who raised eyebrows with his hard hitting no nonsense attitude. He quite rightly was man of the match against the aussies at Lansdowne and was hailed by rugby pundits all over the world as one of the best in the world! Roll on to the six nations..... Less than 6 months later, the same player is still doing the same thing, his last match for his club - he was named man of the match, yet if youu care to count the minutes he spent on the pitch in the 6N, you might be surprised to find that "one of the best in the world" spent only 23 mins total on the pitches and all as pointless time wasting substitutions...
Any comments?
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Re 99 - Chuck
I actually agree with Edger's selection of Dewey ahead of O'Driscoll,
May be a bit controversial... but i just don't get what all the hype about O'Driscoll is. Is he truely a world class player or even international standard for that matter. For me he had a poor tournament (again) and it is only the world class players around him like Horgan, Hickie and O'Gara that have ever made him look good. Can anyone honestly give me an example of O'Driscoll actually creating something off his own back without being handed it on a plate? I agree he has had the odd good game for Leinster but is he really international standard... i am not convinced.
I reckon if you put him in a poor team like Scotland (come on guys you did come last) he would fail to shine and there would be none of this rubbish about O'Driscoll being world class. He is a good club player and thats it!
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I think that Jonny Wilko should be moved to play hooker. He cannot play fly half. all he can do is kick Who agrees. By the way IRELAND RULE
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109 Dai, well said!
I don't understand why all these toys are being thrown out of prams either, even the obvious wind-ups are setting people off on one.
I also agree with others who say that picking a 6N squad is easier and probably more sensible than a team.
The following observations are limited, don't get Sky so don't know the "form" players in the various leagues.
Very mixed bag though, this 6N, Ireland have the best 1st XV, maybe even 22 but they may need more than that in September - injuries happen. They are perhaps a little over-reliant on one or two key players (as England were in 2003, what happened next?).
Not sure about France, probably the strongest squad but where's the old spark gone?
Italy, great strides forward but they do need a bit of class and pace out wide, or they won't continue to progress.
Wales, Hook does seem to exude class, but let's wait and see. Team great against England but even then, the individuals played better than the team, otherwise they would have won by 20+.
Scotland, primarily, need a 10 - does Paterson play 10 week in, week out? A few good players but not much depth there. It's a worry.
England need to dispel any thoughts about retaining the WC, persevere with the younger lads (why has Tait been given all this flak?) and maybe scour Her Majesty's Prisons for some nasty forwards.
Would love another Northern Hemisphere win, but can't see it.
Bon courage.
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****
Chaps apologies for spelling Chabal wrong, I guess it's his thundering runs and long hair that remind me of a horse.
Back to more important things like the WC. I think this year it will be a battle with the NH, I feel this 6N has been a real battle and will only help all the NH teams beat the SH for once. So happy BA is now there for Eng, so much better than AR and on par with the IQ of SCW.
COME on NH! Lets show the SH what we're all about in this WC! COME ON Eng and the BA army, come on JR, JL, JW, LD, RH & MC (prop).
BTW, Roy of the Rovers #114, I was a kid one day, not anymore unfort, but I do know my rugby - I used to play mini rugby with Bill Beaumont!
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For what it's worth, my team would be as follows:
15 Girvan Dempsey - Good in defence and attack.
14 David Strettle - A real find who shone on the few times he got the ball. Pity England didn't get him it often enough.
13 Brian O'Driscoll - Not always up to his usual standards, but still consistently better than most this year. The loss of his leadership hindered Ireland at crucial times in the tournament.
12 Gordon D'Arcy - Possibly the best player in the tournament this year. Always dangerous.
11 Shane Horgan - Has improved a lot over the last few years, had a good tournament.
10 Ronan O'Gara - I've never really rated him, always thought him just a kicker, and wouldn't normally even have him in the Ireland team. Played really well this year though, so is there on merit.
9 Pierre Mignoni - Just played well, consistently.
8 Sergio Parisse - Usually where a number 8 should be, either in the ruck or waiting for ball beside it. Excellent.
7 David Wallace - Superb. Contender for player of the tournament, and certainly the forward of the tournament.
6 Simon Easterby - Very good, consistently.
5 Paul O'Connell - Wasn't up to his usual very high standards for the entire tournament, but even then was still good enough.
4 Marco Bortolami - The best 2nd row in the tournament.
3 Pieter de Villiers - Great scrummager, surprisingly quick on the wing!
2 Raphael Ibanez - Better than all other contenders.
1 Martin Castrogiovanni - Unfortunate injury, looked good before then.
Replacements:
Andrea Lo Cicero - More than adequate cover for either side of the scrum.
Mauro Bergamasco - Unlucky to be up against Wallace for inclusion (as is Martyn Williams) but great player, both as flanker and back.
Jason Robinson - I always feel he's too slow after the first 10yds, but as an impact player against tiring opposition... 4 tries this year also speak loudly.
David Skrela - France finally have a good solid fly half. Didn't really do anything wrong, but O'Gara just too impressive this year.
Sean Lamont - Best Scots player, always looking to attack, good in defence.
Rory Best - Solid hooking, good around field.
Mike Blair - good for the entire time he was on the pitch, which no other scrum half (Mignoni excepted) can say.
The reason there aren't any Welsh or Scots in the team is I don't think any deserved a place in the starting XV. If this offends national pride, sorry, but there were better players in every position. Alun Wyn Jones did play well, and Chris Patterson was consistent as ever, but neither were quite good enough.
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The best team won, no doubt. If anyone is going to stop the Southern Hemisphere teams at the WC it will be France; they are the only side with the combination of grunt up front and gas behind that can do the job. Sorry, Irish fans, I don't think your pack is up to the job and Stringer will get mangled behind a retreating eight.
England are getting thoroughly unpredicatable and could get to the semis on a good day or go out in the group stages on a bad. Wales will have to raise their game and keep it up there - something they haven't managed in thirty years. Sorry, Scotland, no chance at all. Italy will give anyone a game up front and would be serious contenders if they had a set of backs. I'm expecting a France/NZ final. Anything could happen on the day but I hope for a French win.
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Post 128.
Gd team- I thought Harry Ellis had a very gd tournament, he prooved wrong his doubters. Not sure you meant to put in Blair who was injured! I would probably have Clerc somewhere round there as well! From a bias Welsh perspective, Wyn Jones and Poppam i thought deserved a shout. Very physical and caused the opposition problems on a indivdual level. Shanklin might also make your bench...
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Ireland & France were light years ahead of the rest but both still have tweaking before world cup but can see one of them get to the WC final. Where as the rest are in real disarray with their prep fo WC. Wales on day with right balance can cause teams major probs, England don't have the forwards to beat the top teams, Scotland need there best XV to do anything and can't afford injuries to key players like white, hogg and blair. Italy are getting better but now have to work ona plan B for tactics. They should all aim for at least QF.
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124 - I am in a pure state of shock that you have just said that and am convinced you are just winding me up.
Take a straw poll of people who know anything about Rugby and ask them if they think O'Driscoll is world class, I think you'll find you'd be in the minority.
There is no point arguing with you because there is no argument. You are clearly out of your mind.
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Whys eveyone forgotton about Charlie Hodgson? Best fly half England ever had.
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Why all the hype about Catt ? He had one good run where he chipped the ball forward when he ran out of ideas and got a very lucky bounce for the try. Otherwise he was ponderous, slow and looked out of his depth. Andy Farrell is a much better option at 12.
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The quality and diversity of the comments following this article clearly highlights its thought provoking content. We all have our views on the good, the bad and the ugly moments of the tournament but for me the horror story has been the standard of the refereeing which left much to be desired. There seemed to be a terrible lack of "teamwork" between the onfield officials and an awful "bottling it" by refs passing seemingly simple decisions to the video official. I only hope that the IRB get it right for the RWC.
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brian moore is a joke. For the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú to let this biased moron onto our television to support England courtesy of our license fee is disgraceful. However, it is entertaining when they get beat which is a regular occurence these days e.g. When Boss intercepted a pass for a try his girlish scream still makes me laugh.
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humps if o driscoll was englsih scottish or welsh he'd walk into their first team! graham henry has also daid that he along with o gara o connell and leamy would be in the nz team if they werw kiwis! enough said.
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humps if o driscoll was englsih scottish or welsh he'd walk into their first team! graham henry has also said that he along with o gara o connell and leamy would be in the nz team if they werw kiwis! enough said.
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ref 109 mac - i fail to see how you can say the best team won when they were so severely ripped apart by the scots who i feel were VERY unlucky to lose.
At no stage at all did they look like handling Pattersons power at 15, or indeed Deweys quick feet.
I think on another day the scots would have put a cricket score past them and indeed should have won the whole tournament, had Ford, Kerr and Hines found 6th gear.....
all of this and i'm welsh - i just feel we have to be more REAL about this and less BIASED....
let me guess Mac, just an outside one, Parler Francais??
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"At 11:39 AM on 20 Mar 2007, emerald star wrote:
humps if o driscoll was englsih scottish or welsh he'd walk into their first team! graham henry has also daid that he along with o gara o connell and leamy would be in the nz team if they werw kiwis! enough said."
O'Gara for Dan Carter, Yeah, Right. And I bet he'd pick Andy Farrell at inside centre.
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What does everyone think about moving Stringer to inside centre?
And before you say it i know he is small but he is deceptively strong. I think his vision and pass may provided the likes of Horgan and Hickie with space to use their pace. A frightening prospect!
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the scots did play well against the french for certain periods in the match but at no stage were they ever going to rip france apart!i was hoping the scots would cause an upset but to be honest the french got in gear in the 2nd half and took out their frustrations after the england game on the poor scots! no offence jabba!
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Rhodri, Post 130
I agree that I didn't mean Mike Blair, I meant Mike Phillips! Oops. Although, on further consideration I would have had Alessandro Troncon on the bench, he played very well. Alix Popham played well, but I feel that Parisse was much better, and Denis Leamy also played well, so Popham misses the call. The same with Vincent Clerc, he played well, took his chances, just there were others who shaded it.
Who would everyone have liked to see more of during the tournament?
For me, Mike Phillips, Nick Easter, Isaac Boss and Neil Best immediately spring to mind.
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By the way Egbert, when you say post 50, I think you meant 49... (the post numbers seem to go out of sync) and 50 mentions the fact that Ireland are at sea when BOD isn't in the team.
Post 49 does have Dewey in his back division. You'll also notice that this is a scotsman given his idea on a Scottish backline. Wouldn't expect O'Driscoll in that given he's Irish.
Post 80 is a 'newcomer' squad. O'Driscoll made his debut in the 2000 six nations.
Man alive, has Jeremy Beadle hijacked this Blog?!
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haha i dont think ive ever seen stringer pass from a movin position. its a totally different skill! ive heard seen some stupid posts on this blog but that takes the seabiscuit
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Jabba, decidedly English, I'm afraid. I failed to see the Scots rip the French apart as well - were you watching the same game and can you tell me the score? Once the Irish blew it against Italy despite the referee's best efforts on their behalf it was clear that the French would ensure they did enough to win the championship. Remember, they beat Ireland in Ireland by sheer self belief and keeping going - it's that which makes a great team. Don't bet against them for the World Cup. I wish I could say the same about England but I've been consistent in all my posts on that subject - we should have started rebuilding four years ago - not four weeks.
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regarding post 18 - luck is part of the game (but hopefully evens itself out in the long-run you could claim Ireland were lucky to be in the position to challenge for the title - stronger reffing in the Welsh game could could have resulted in a loss and a 1-point win against Scotland!) as to France's try the ref asked the 4th official if he could give any reason NOT to give the try as the ref said he had seen the grounding.
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Charlie 133!!
Sorry mate but you could not even tackle my Granny!!!!
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Is Hook world Class? Or did he just have a good game against England? No doubting he's a talent but is he a similar talent to the now invisible Gavin Henson (even if he was fit). Let's hope not for the sake of Welsh Rugby.
Tait is not world class. He's handy to have on the bench becuase he changes the focus of a game. Deacon isn't even Premiership class in my opinion, a total plodder.
Flood has got something, not sure what but I think he's one to watch.
Rees and Strettle will have long futures with England and Gerraghty will be up there too if he can get to grips with kicking a ball.
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mac edey- those were graham henry's comments in an interview! and yes he probably would as new zealand have a huge squad and part of their brilliance is the fact they have more than one player for each position.
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132 is this charlie hodgson himself trying to claim he's the best fly half england ever had! lol. poor old charlie though he at least was better than the leiceter guy andy goode
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sorry has no one noticed that ireland were the only team that were not well beaten. france were annihalated by england.
i am sorry but if i rate ireland ahead of france. at least they showed up for every game and were competitive for the full 80 in every game. france went missing again.
ireland have a lot of strength and depth on their bench. flannery, n. best, g. murphy, trimble would all get on the english, scottish and welsh teams.
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I completely agree with the previous comment concerning the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú's insistence on continuing to employ Brian Moore as a commentator. His comments give no insight into the game (which frankly bears little resemblance to the rugby union of his era anyway) and his thinly veiled bias lowers the entire tone of the commentary.
I spend more time swearing at the television than enjoying the game.
Jonathan Davies by contrast says it how it is and makes fair, considered comments. The sooner Moore is off the airwaves the better.
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My England team for their first game at the RWC:
Sheridan
Chuter
Stevens
Palmer
Shaw
Moody
Rees
Ward-Smith
Ellis
Geraghty
Robinson
Wilkinson
Tait
Strettle
Cueto
Replacements:
Mears
White
Grewcock
Worsley
Richards
Tindall
Simpson-Daniel
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Can anyone tell me how Sheidan and Stevens are progressing after their injuries. Certainly they together with an in-form Kay and Hill would add to the English pack.
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munster all the way - personal opinion I know but O'Gara wouldn't even be my third choice for England. I expect Graham Henry was being polite and playing to his audience. I'm surprised he wouldn't have Ireland's best back, Gordon d'Arcy - I rate him above O'Driscoll these days. I think maybe injuries are taking their toll on BOD - or it could be the weight of expectation. Hope he's fit for the World Cup.
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Am I the only one who still holds Farrell in high regard and believe he can insert some needed self belief into the England team???
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Well said Ruggernut.
Let's give Brian Moore and Eddie Butler a break - from all future rugby internationals!
Player of the tournament? Take your pick from Parisse, Wallace, Ibanez or D'Arcy - all outstanding.
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d'arcy was the only player that would be feared by the opposition on his current form so therefore he would get my vote!
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I've read thru these blogs with great interest, many contrasting views, but for the life of me I cannot understand some of the logic regarding some of the comments against the poor old Irish team. 2nd place for 5 of last 7 years, and what is it three Triple Crowns in 4 years, have beaten Australia, South Africa, England, Scotland, Wales and Italy, only losing out to France in injury time. OK they need to cut out some of these silly errors, but "not as good as they think they are"??, a bit harsh I venture.....
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Andy Farrell was made a scapegoat after the defeat to Ireland yet he wasnt given the platform to perform by the forwards who once again couldnt cut it against the wales team....how come no scapegoat was made for the wales game....
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There are two many people on these blogs making ludacris statements.
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The rugby knowledge on this blog is dire. Please bring back scrum V where people new what they were talking about. Above someone has said Troncon was a real find! He is ancient. And BOD is not a newcomer! Also someone is saying that Richard HIll should come back into England? The same person called them an enigma. You my friend are an enigma. Hill also pops up in 154 along with Ben Kay. Sometimes I think that the last game of rugby English people saw was in 2003 in Sydney.
On teams of the tournament etc - It is redundant excercise. Some players only look good cos they play in a bad team e.g Paterson, Lamont, Peel, Strettle and others play excellent rugby in international jersey with the players around them doing well. From an irish point of view I would not change anyone in my starting 1 but would kill to have the strength in depth that France has in key areas. e.g Frontrow Beuxis/Skrela Mignoni/Yachvili. irish depth is only in 3/4 and back row.
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IMO D’Arcy outshone O’Driscoll by a MILE this year BUT O’Driscoll is the most influential player we have and seriously missed even if only for a few minutes and also, is probably more capable of finding gaps from nothing than any player in the world. My vote for player of the tournament goes to Darcy though, made more ground than ANY other player in the 6N and showed his class. Only problem though is that he needs to get more tries, he doesn’t seem to be comfortable going for it and doesn't seem to like the limelight, preferring to do all the hard work instead – his try against Italy, he was almost held up and there was another run he had which seemed clear but he just didn’t seem to know what to do. STILL my player of the tournament just edging out Wallace. Horgan and Hickie always a joy to watch and O’Gara ran the show. I don't think O'Connell should make the 6n team as his first couple of games, he seemed to be absent. However, we may have had the best individual players but they still lack the bottle to win big games. It’s worrying and I don’t think we have a chance in the wc. I think we’re all a bit too quick to rule out Australia and South Africa in any case… can’t see either of them rolling over to France or Ireland at any stage to be honest.
Anyway all in all a fantastic edge of your seat tournament that played up til the final seconds… France and Ireland both had fantastic games on Saturday. But to those saying Ireland should have kicked the ball out. I wasn’t sure the ref would blow if they did, cos he blew a couple of times after the 80 minutes already but not to signal the end.
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The persistent criticism aimed at Ireland by supporters of other nations is baffling. It is true that they should have won the championship and, but for a late and poor lapse v France, they would have. But here we have a pack of morons calling them lucky; 'Grand Slam never on the cards' they cry; 'over-rated,' they moan; 'not as good as they think they are' others whine.
Ireland scored more tries than any other team, more points than any other and conceded fewer tries than any other. They had no poor games, doing enough to win in all but the last few minutes against France. I accept that those few minutes were crucial and showed a lack of professionalism. But Ireland were the best overall team in the Championship. That they did not win is their own fault, a fault which may well be mended by the autumn and next year's championship. Remember, England blew 4 Grand Slams before securing one and going on to the World Cup.
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to be honest i'm laughing at most of those idiotic comments regarding the irish team! constructive critisism is one thing- that's fine. i'd be the first to admit ireland will have to up their gears for the world cup but all the rubbish comments about us being chokers etc are laughable! especially coming from the british teams! people here will probably be pissed off with being called begrudgers and sour grapes but comments like chokers etc do nothing to dispel the fact that it comes across as jealousy. i mean to be honest england scotland and wales would happilt take the position that ireland have been in over the last few years. and also there is no shame in being beaten by a better team ie france edged us out but we went on to win all the other matches whereas scotland beat wales but lost to italy england beat france (great victory) but lost to wales and wales lost to everyone aside from england! ireland and france were the most consistent teams this 6nations. that's a fact! chhokers- i dont think so esp after the autumn internationals!
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to be honest i'm laughing at most of those idiotic comments regarding the irish team! constructive critisism is one thing- that's fine. i'd be the first to admit ireland will have to up their gears for the world cup but all the rubbish comments about us being chokers etc are laughable! especially coming from the british teams! people here will probably be pissed off with being called begrudgers and sour grapes but comments like chokers etc do nothing to dispel the fact that it comes across as jealousy. i mean to be honest england scotland and wales would happily take the position that ireland have been in over the last few years. and also there is no shame in being beaten by a better team ie france edged us out but we went on to win all the other matches whereas scotland beat wales but lost to italy england beat france (great victory) but lost to wales and wales lost to everyone aside from england! ireland and france were the most consistent teams this 6nations. that's a fact! chhokers- i dont think so esp after the autumn internationals! triple crown 3 out of 4 years, irish teams finished 1st 2nd and 3rd respectively in the celtic league last season, munster won the heineken cup in 2006 and are still involved this year as are leinster and finished on the same points as france! i'm lookingn forward to the wc!
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glad to see others here also spotted the double movement in the italian try! i thought i was the only one!
still, the final table is a fair verdict. ireland lost the championship through letting in 2 last minute tries. teams who can't hold their focus for the full 80+ minutes do not deserve to win.
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France ripped the irish apart in the first half in Dublin and were easily the better team if it hadn't been for some poor finishing they would of been clear at half time. true there was abit of a resurgence from Ireland in the second half but France deserved the win. Also this is the year for Ireland home advantage seems to be a huge thing in rugby anfd this year Ireland had the two other big teams at home an advantage niehter England or France ever have. second time in a row Ireland went in as favourites yet the irish seem to refuse to admit they choked yet again
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That Ronan O'Gara should never have left Boyzone.
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We did to choke, yes. But to say we were underrated and poor is far from true. As mentioned, we were top try scorers and point scorers. We put 90+ points on Italy and England - a 'tough' away fixture and the world champions. On paper, they're great results.
We were not favourites last year, far from it. We had just had a poor autumn and faced France and England away, while Wales were the Grand Slam champions. The press we were getting prior to last years tournament you would've thought we were staring at a whitewash. We came second.
I also would not change anyone 1-15 in our team but would love to have the strength in depth France have particularly back up at prop and fly half...
We are a good team and who knows what a win in France vs France might do for us.
Roll on the RWC and the naysayers I say....
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post 163 - LIAM
What are you talking about liam !!??
You say that you have great rugby knowledge but yet you comment that players like Lamont, Paterson,Peel and Strettle "only look good cause they play in a bad team" ? Crazy logic. Surely it doesn't matter what team they are in its the opposition they are playing ! Funnily those 4 players you mention would arguably be in a lions squad on current form. Lamont for one has been destructive in defence and attack against the top two. Think again.
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England lost to Ireland at Rugby. England are now in danger of losing to Ireland at Cricket (& they pinched Ireland's best player!!)
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murder she wrote the irish have admitted we lost to france thro our own fault but we refuse to call ourselves chokers as we are not! there's a big difference. also why are france not being labelled chokers because they lost to england!
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surely it cant be a double movement when the italian player wasn't held. can someone help me on that law. surely thats the case????????
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Not enough credit given to the Scotland pack, who laboured hard with some success in all their matches. As usual the side is let down by a truly poor set of backs, save for Lamont. Dewey exposed as a lumpen hod carrier of no skill or guile, Henderson has skill and guile but no pace at all. For the life of me, I don't understand why we can't produce one Scottish player with any pace.
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I agree with most of the comments up here, this six nations was one of the best in years, very watchable, very competitive. As a welsh man I took just as much pleasure out of watching France beat Ireland, Ireland beat England, England beat France as I did watching us beat England. And Italy were superb, there was a part of me that smiled when in the infamous 10 second lineout was not awarded. Their win against Scotland was awesome and its good to see they have the know-how to survive a game from start to finish, even in defeat.
Unfortunately, the RWC will come to soon for most, but theres a lot of games to be played between now and then and I'm sure the debates will rage on about tactics and selection for all concerned. Ireland and France will lead the european challenge, but the All Blacks are the only team to be fearful down south. If they choke, as they have a tendancy to do then this is going to be the most open tournament in years and even an outsider might come through to clinch it, I cant wait.
Of all the teams, I'd have a little smirk on my face if I was English. Theres a breed of talent coming through that might just ignite a running, enjoyable brand of rugby, and with a few old heads to return in the forwards theres no reason why they cant be destructive to go with it. We may have unearthed a gem in Hook, but Flood, Geraghty and Strettle are not far behind, in a few months time I think the biggest rallying call may come from over the bridge.
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Re: murder she...wrote
Funny you mention England being one of the big two and so Ireland were lucky to have them both at home...i personally would have prefered to have Wales at home and take my chances with England away! Beaten England 2 or 3 times in a row i believe at HQ and Wales were a team with the potential to upset Ireland...
Ireland were lucky to have France at home agreed but other than tht they wouldn't have minded who else they had at home (other than for the fact they wanted England to take part in a momentous occassion at Croke Park)...Ireland had only two home fixtures just as France had so cant complain that France had the better of the two that were supposedly challenging each other for the title...Ireland were however a bit unlucky that France played Italy in what was the only game they failed to arrive for and failed to fight for once behind (which in the end proved crucial on points difference)
All in all though, if you get beaten by the champs whilst you're at home, then you don't deserve to win the championship itself no matter how well you play in the other matches as the championship lasts 5 games
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Am i the only person who holds Charlie Hodgson in such high regard?
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Hodgson was one of many players hard done by on the last Lions tour.
He and Cuisiter proved a far more effective and efficient half back partnership than any of those used during the tests.
That said, his form did begin to dip towards the end of last years championship run and subsequent injuries have done him no favours.
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i think every team has a bad patch they can't win EVERY match but they did do good though so welldone team we done all we could :D
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Roy Allen 166(ish)
Ireland may have scored all these tries and all the other stats you clutch at, but unfortunately they still don't have the winning guts. Look at France who had to force scores against the clock in their Ireland game, and then against Scotland. They literally "scored at will". Ireland did not and cannot do this when it counts. Of course the IRish will snow tries down on Namibia and Georgia in the pools, but that will buy them nothing in the clashes with the Aussies and Argies. I wouldn't even risk much money on them getting into the knock-outs, but that's maybe just me.
Noone is knocking Ireland - a fine team to be sure - but even with odds stacked in their favour (England and France in disarray, Wales ravaged with injuries, Scotland - well, Scotland...) they have managed to to slump.
Ireland are one of the best teams in the world, but I just don't they have WC winning nous in them.
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i think every team has a bad patch they can't win EVERY match but they did do good though so welldone team we done all we could :D
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munster all the way (168?) it is you who is laughable.
yes, other non-french teams in 6N would gladly take irish talent at the moment, but that is not the point because we are talking about achieving potentials.
actually, no, it IS the point: ireland HAVE these incredible players at the moment - have done for a few years now - and can't make it count. noone here is denying the class of the irish squad, which speaks for itself. they are only responding to what is a mixture of under-achievement, complacency, inflated opinion of a team that must always be content with second place.
ireland should be smashing teams like scotland but were frankly jammy to scrape past them. they were also lucky to side-step an under-strength (although fired up) wales team, and were unprofessional in the extreme against france. the england and italy games showed what a class act they can be, but which they don't perform like enough.
we, the other teams who are currently incapable of running france over 5 games, are frustrated that ireland cannot make their on-paper advantages count and oust the french from this championship for a change.
you're right, i AM jealous of ireland's players at the moment, from an english pov. but i'm more frustrated - why can't they win anything, while you tout them as world cup winners. ireland are certainly better than wales and england, but aren't they the worse under-achievers this year?
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munster all the way (175?)
france are not chokers because they had seconds to make do-or-die scores against ireland, which they did, and then against scotland in their final deciding game, which they did.
performance under pressure is what counts and ireland failed to muster it again, which is so frustrating.
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With the RWC looming, I think that England flood (pardon the pun) of new talent coming through could peak at just the right time. Geraghty, Flood and Strettle can all provide flair, while experience can be provided by the likes of Catt and Robbo. The pack still needs work, with Chuter really no match at hooker for an in-form Steve Thompson. Moving Corry to centre was a master-stroke, but in order to achieve long-term success, we need a captain - fast. Catt and Corry are both getting on, and the currently seems to logical replacement.
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travis so france and ireland both lost one game and both ended up on the same amount of points. ireland lost the championship because they made a decision to go for another try which didnt pay off. france 's decision v scotland did pay off! seriously it's rubbish to say we are chokers because both decisions were brave and only one paid off but at least we had the balls to go for it! also a successful season i think heineken cup, celtic league, won all our autumn internationals v sa and australia won the triple crown finished runners up on same points difference as france. beat scotland wales and england again as well as a very good italian team. if thats what's considered choking then yes ill support a team of chokers!
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How can anyone even venture to make the claim that "Tait is never going to be world class"?
The guy is 21 and has had only two international starts, both of which were for an England team firmly on the back foot and under pressure.
I think 'world class' is a term banded around too easily these days. In my view world class means you either make the first choice world XV or are the first replacement.
So granted he has not been able to produce anything as of yet which suggests he may become world class but to dismiss a young talent after two games is ridiculous.
-------------------------------
Just to return to the TMO decisions:
From what I saw Di Marigny scored the try with his first movement, but obviously he did not know that and made a second movement. So I think the try was correct.
The referee in the French game obviously was happy with the grounding because he said to the TMO "is there any reason not to award the try?" If he had not seen the grounding then he would have said "I'd like you to check the grounding."
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Here are the best 6N backs:
9 Ellis - for the breaks
10 Hook - loads of spark
11 Strettle - best english player
12 Dewey - bit of beef in the centre
13 O'Driscoll - enough said
14 Patterson - kicking, tackling
15 Robinson - reputation says it all
notice a mixture of experience and youth
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Before we wrap up all our teams in a bin liner due to 'unbeatable' ABs. Just having a look at the tri-nation stats makes for some interesting reading. Last time NZ did a route in the cometition was in 2003, just before the WC, low and behold Auz knocked them out, even though NZ were favorites. WC year 1999, guess who won the tri nations? yep, NZ, favorites for the WC? yep, NZ, yet they lost to France, even though they put 40 odd points on the in the semi they still lost. We still await this years tri-nation matches, so looking at 2006, as usual nz won. But interstingly they did loose a match to SA, about 6 weeks before that game Auz had beaten SA 49-0. And looking at many of the other results nz matches seemed touch n go
Barely a couple of weeks later nz again are laying waste to the northern hem teams, while both Auz and SA earning a very mixed bag of results.
So...am i to believe that Auz and SA are world class when they play NZ, yet all of a sudden decidedly ordinary when on tour? No i dont think so, i think it shows that the other southern hemisphere sides know all too well that NZ have weaknesses too.
I think if there are any 'inferiority complexes' going on its between many of the british teams and NZ. I think a perfect example of the is both england after winning the world cup, results against NZ very different and argentina, who dont have the long history of fearing the big 3 and (though alot of us probably dont consider argentina better than the likes of france, ire) do suprisingly well against the tri-nation sides.
Now dont get me wrong, i know the AB's are a fantastic team, but perhaps if we start thinking about them in terms of 15 v 15 rather than david v goliath then i think it would make quite a noticable difference to the points haul they get at the end of most matches (even if we still loose).
I'm a welshman and it was not a long time ago that wales we at the bottom of the table year in year out, and i never saw us being successful ever again, next thing i knew i was celebrating a GS in 2005, so things change, as this great game grows and grows around the world, AB's wont be gods forever!
P.S. and yes i do appreciate the irony of this years 6N results!
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Will New Zealand be worried?
lol
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fullback fred (190), please don't draw me into a debate over best backs. yours is clearly rubbish. that backline would get mullered. no french for a start? are you quite mad?
D'arcy and BOD is the best centre pairing in the world - why change that? so that's dewey out.
you cannot put hook ahead of o gara on the basis of one game... o'gara top points scorer etc etc... Hook out.
mignoni over ellis any day of the week. ellis out.
paterson had a boot, that's about it. too slow for an international wing. robinson might make wing owing to his 4 tries. i'd stump for dempsey/poitreneud at full back. paterson out. i'd take hickie on the left wing as he's got pace still and can defend, immensely. strettle out. i'd actually pick clerc over robinson. robinson out.
each to their own i guess.
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fullback fred (190), please don't draw me into a debate over best backs. yours is clearly rubbish. that backline would get mullered. no french for a start? are you quite mad?
D'arcy and BOD is the best centre pairing in the world - why change that? so that's dewey out.
you cannot put hook ahead of o gara on the basis of one game... o'gara top points scorer etc etc... Hook out.
mignoni over ellis any day of the week. ellis out.
paterson had a boot, that's about it. too slow for an international wing. robinson might make wing owing to his 4 tries. i'd stump for dempsey/poitreneud at full back. paterson out. i'd take hickie on the left wing as he's got pace still and can defend, immensely. strettle out. i'd actually pick clerc over robinson. robinson out.
each to their own i guess.
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Munster all the way
don't misunderstand me - i don't think france will win the world cup either, because although I think they edged ireland out on grit, they also left too much to chance, like their irish title-sharers, and will be shredded by teams with more close-down ability than scotland/wales.
ireland have certainly got some results this season, but i don't think they've achieved what they should be capable of. it's like wales patting themselves on the backs for demolishing england when they forget they were beaten by an irish team they should have beaten, mediocre in italy and unforgiveably appalling in scotland.
i very much see the "unlucky ireland" argument based on the last day - i watched it with me dad and wanted ireland to win it like you wouldn't believe - but the fact is they were let off twice along the way to getting that far by scotland and wales (who definitely lack the killer instinct after absolutely destroying england but only showing a 9 pt difference for it) who both should and could have beaten ireland.
(incidentally it wasn't so much a tactical "decision" for france to go for the scotland try - it was that or lsoe the tournament, but that's not really relevant).
however, if ireland can beat france and argentina (i'm not yet convinced they will do both, but would like to be proven wrong) then they will likely get scotland/italy and avoid NZ until much later - which is promising.
here's to some NH sides upsetting the bookies.
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Munster all the way
don't misunderstand me - i don't think france will win the world cup either, because although I think they edged ireland out on grit, they also left too much to chance, like their irish title-sharers, and will be shredded by teams with more close-down ability than scotland/wales.
ireland have certainly got some results this season, but i don't think they've achieved what they should be capable of. it's like wales patting themselves on the backs for demolishing england when they forget they were beaten by an irish team they should have beaten, mediocre in italy and unforgiveably appalling in scotland.
i very much see the "unlucky ireland" argument based on the last day - i watched it with me dad and wanted ireland to win it like you wouldn't believe - but the fact is they were let off twice along the way to getting that far by scotland and wales (who definitely lack the killer instinct after absolutely destroying england but only showing a 9 pt difference for it) who both should and could have beaten ireland.
(incidentally it wasn't so much a tactical "decision" for france to go for the scotland try - it was that or lsoe the tournament, but that's not really relevant).
however, if ireland can beat france and argentina (i'm not yet convinced they will do both, but would like to be proven wrong) then they will likely get scotland/italy and avoid NZ until much later - which is promising.
here's to some NH sides upsetting the bookies.
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Fullback fred-190 - you are welcome to play behind that backline.
You matched only 1 of the 6 nations team picked by the experts. Have you never heard of Gordan D'arcy?
I hope you don't do the lottery!
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good grief i think i must have wondered into another dimension by mistake - a world where irish rugby supporters can escape their spoiling and scavenging rugby playing history and lecture followers of other nations on the supremcy of the men in green! Just one measley grand slam in 130 years of trying, never been past the wc qtr finals, no champinship win since 1985, never beaten the all blacks, 3 great chances of grand slams in 6 years thrown away (twice at home)
I would say to my irish friends that when your team has won a few grand slams and championships and maybe reached a semi final or two in the wc then you can presume to lecture the rest of us on the oval game until then maybe you would do better to reserve your abuse for those consistent chokers in green shirts!
If blowing numerous grand slams and championships isnt choking i'd like to know what is????
When o'gara and co 'choke' again in the WC against france its the mighty all blacks in the quartesr for you -if you manage to overcome argentina that is!
But expect you'll still try to say ireland are not a team of chokers even after another faliure at the WC
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Travis, oh Travis,
is it the green eyed monster that has you so negative?
People are saying how France are going to be the only team to beat New Zealand in this years World Cup and how rubbish Ireland are. Is this the same France who got hammered by New Zealand last year?
And when does Ireland play the Aussies? Certainly not in the group stages like you said.
Maybe this year an outsider will win it, maybe Argentina, who are ranked 6th in World Rankings, one place above England and two places behind Ireland.
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Charlie Hodgson, you are the new Honest Tim, a good laugh
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re 198-leigh
The only knowledge of rugby that you have displayed in this comment is a vague idea of history.
Whoever won the championship in 1985 isn't going to affect Ireland's performance in the World Cup.
In fact, Irelands' poor record is more likely to be a motivational advantage for them than anything else.
Trying to wind people up can be a bit of fun I guess, but at least try and do it with a bit of style (like the people who put Hill, Hook and Dewey etc. in their 6nations team!)
Have some respect for your
"Irish friends" who have just as much right to "lecture you on the oval game" as anyone else.
If the English team, like you, are foolish enough to adopt an attitude of relying on their success in the the past, then that's where I imagine their success will stay.
Having said that, I hope that's not the case, because I'm an English Rugby fan,one of the few, it seems, who's happy enough to give the Irish Rugby team the respect it has shown us it deserves.
Every dog has it's day. England has enjoyed her success in the past and will again, but now it's time to hear our little green neighbors' dog bark
and Oh! how she barks! Woof Woof!
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There is no such thing as a double movement. And what is this nonsense (# 83) about "make one movement in any direction when you are grounded"?
As far as I know, once you are grounded you cannot move your body along the ground, but you can definitely stretch it over the goal line.
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liam meighan.
the "green-eyed monster" irish riposte seems to be tiring. if that's what you want to deflect reason with so you can go on living under your deluded veil of contentment and ignore the fact that your team has added to its swelling record of underachievement, go ahead. but when will irish supporters wake and smell the coffee? you don't get a chance to lose one game at the WC, let alone lose almost 3 like ireland did in the 6N, and then feel "unlucky".
And no, I specified that noone is saying ireland are rubbish - you have a chip on shoulder imagining that they are. instead, before you stomp around trumpeting an ireland WC win, consider the reality that ireland can never win anything they're "supposed" to win, let alone something they're not (ie. WC)
NB. i corrected the aussies comment.
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Think the hype with Brian Aston might prove a bit of a false dawn.
Few comments here about him picking form players and going with youth seem to be based in the realms of imagination! (Comment 6/7)
He picked Wilkinson based on a 40 minute performance for Newcastle, he stuck with Farrell until he was injured, then only made Catt captain when Vickery pulled out, Strettle only came in when Robinson was injured and Flood/Geraghty combo was only considered when Wilko pulled out.
I do think that England have found a team that can play a decent game and will improve in the future, but it hadn't anything to do with Brian Ashton!
As for the World Cup, Ireland / France game is 50/50 and while I think we will beat Argentina, we will lose too many players to injury to compete with AB, Aussies or SA for 80+ minutes. Semi's are possible though!
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Entertaining 6 nations & thrilling to watch at times but ultimately disappointing as an englishman for us to lose to wales.
Don't like to hear Brian Moore and his co-commentator's so obvious dislike of each other. Their differing views of the game are interesting but not the animosity.
Also (and yes I do know that women watch rugby and enjoy it knowledgably) why do we have to have a woman interviewer on the touchline? This is a male game, played by men and largely watched by men. Let's keep the commentators male too. OK I know that's not PC but how many male role models are there on Woman's Hour?
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travis if you look at some of the other comments there are lots of people slagging the irish team and calling us losers and rubbish etc! clearly not true though and a bit rich coming from scottish fans! are we not allowed to defend our team the way the others are!
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Considering Irelands playing numbers, I believe we are overachieving. Finished on the same number of points as France in the last two 6N with a few triple crowns to boot. Not bad me thinks. I could be wrong about this but I believe if some of the other teams managed that they would be claiming moral victories!!!!
No one is saying we will win the world cup but its nice to know we have the players that could do it. And wether we win or not, Irelands fans will back her all the way.
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a johnson i'm not a die hard feminist by any means and as a female rugby fan i'm not going to call u a big old sexist or anything but what is the problem with having a female reporter on the touch line? there are never any female commentators at matches so to have a female reporter ask a few questions from the sidelines isnt too much to ask is it? as for woman's hour what the hell is that? and as if i'd ever watch it. i'm not trying to attack you but rather ask a simple question. the bbc reporter is actually ok.
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Re Double Movement:
When a player is grounded he may place the ball in any direction he likes in one movement. He is in essence moving his arm/hand but not his body and places the ball. If he makes a second move to place the ball(again) it is a double movement. If he is not held in the tackle then he can do what he likes because it is open play.
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I thought the competition was a fantatic one, until the penultimate game where it was marred beyond any hope of redemption.
I know the vogue is not to mention when a referee has a blind game, but the ref for the Scotland - France match should be publicly dismissed/humiliated/flogged, depending on what paper you read, for that travesty of a match. He effectively cost Ireland 15-20 points with woefully poor decisions. The final try was probably good to be fair - just the rest of the match he got it wrong over.
I've been a Scotland fan for a couple of decades and know what it's like to lose. We've done that a lot. I wan't expecting to beat France and don't think we deserved to from our play, but the one thing that really twists at the craw of any rugby fan is watching a game decimated by bad refereeing.
If Ronan O'Gara's kicking had been a little better it migh not have mattered.
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Ireland were massively unlucky to lose on the final day, poor refereeing decisions cost them dearly. Don't no if anyone has mentioned this, but the ball they use in Italia is different to the rest! Maybe if they played with the normal ball it would help them to cope away from home and maybe Ronan O'Gara might have got those two conversions that would have sealed the cup for us?
Ireland will do well in the world cup, but they have to beat France, which will be half way through the tornament so maybe, hopefully, the novelty from the home crowd may have dithered a little and it'll be a regular game and then we have every chance. Geordan Murphy needs to be brought back into the frame, Dempsey played well but with the lack of strength in depth on the bench, we just cant afford to leave him out. We also have Trimble, Bowe, Best ,Flannery etc, so we not completely rubbish on the bench!!!
England have no chance at this moment in time as the only reason they succeeded lat time was due to Johnny Wilkinson!
France will go far but won't win as you never know which team will show up?
wales , Italia and Scotland are only really there to make up the numbers to be honest, sorry!
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joe doyle- come on. blaming the ball is one of the best i've ever heard and i'm irish too! france one fair and square we can admit that!
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Travis
Can you read? I never said that you said that Ireland are rubbish, just that people on this site were saying so.
As the saying goes "you are only as good as your last game". So that must mean that France, Ireland and Wales are good and the others not!
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Re. comment 210, referees make mistakes but they do tend to even out over the competition. Ireland benefited from poor refereeing against the Welsh and also in periods against Italy (the Irish try before half time included two forward passes). That said, it would have been fairer for the last three matches to have been played at the same time. Finally, to say that England won the WC just because of Wilkinson is a joke and ignores the fact that England had the best pack in the world for a number of years up to the WC, and a very good set of backs.
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Here Here to Ron Mcbride in Post 11. Brian Moore is the most biased comentator that has ever picked up a microphone!! I have never heard so much hogwash in a lot of years of watching rugby, the only good thing is when Jonathan Davies puts him in his place, hopefully he will smack him on air one day. The man is a disgrace to front row forwards!!
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210 Joe Doyle.
Too far!
Most Irish fans/bloggers are rightly indignant at the lack of respect shown to their team but how can you say:
1."poor refereeing decisions cost them dearly" and:
2."the only reason they succeeded lat time was due to Johnny Wilkinson!
1. If you look at the whole tournament objectively, you'll probably find that refereeing mistakes evened themselves out. Remember the forward pass missed leading up to the pre-half time Irish try? Amongst other things, a few lapses cost Ireland the Slam, e.g. the last minute French try and playing below par against Scotland. Other than that, they were by far the best team in the 6N. If they can maintain the intensity for the whole tournament and key players remain fit, maybe they can surprise the ABs. Hope so.
2. The only reason? A little bit of credit where it's due please, one player can't win you a World Cup. At the time, England had the best pack in the world, had they not pressured opposition packs into giving away penalties, Wilkinson would not have had all those kicks at goal.
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spooner as an irish fan i am laughing my ass off at joe doyles comments! seriously the ball is the best excuse i've ever heard! also england got to the wwc final on the back of their full 15 wonderful players and under the captaincy of one of the best captains of all time martin johnson! wilkinson scored the drop goal to break the deadlock as it was pretty tight in the final between the englsih and the aussies! however he literally won them the cup at that moment in time- but to say he got them there is ridiculous. the pack were seriously impressive that year!
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Joe Doyle - way off the mark.
As mentioned, we were not robbed by bad refereeing decisions. Forward passes vs Italy and Easterby on Czekaj during first game vs Wales spring to mind? We got our slice of luck too y'know.
The English pack was phenomenal in RWC'03 and in my opinion the man who won it for them was as much Martin Johnson (although it pains me to say it!) than Jonny Wilkinson. He was an outstanding player, captain, leader. In England's grand slam deciders that they lost, he was absent. I seem to remember it was him also that picked the ball from a ruck at the end of the final to get those crucial yards for 'that' drop goal. Moreover, the back row unit of Hill, Back and Dallaglio was as streetwise as it was lethal in its execution.
As for the ball, we knew that would be the case. 2 years ago we started our campaign vs Italy and were very very shaky as was ROG with the ball and we mentioned the difficulties he had with it then. We knew they were playing with that ball. Also, I'm pretty sure it's the same ball they use in the Heineken Cup? Didn't complain when Munster were victorious last year with that ball! If the Ireland team were so worried about the ball they would've shipped a load in for training which I'm sure they would've done.
Let's move on. Ifs, buts and maybes are all well and good but that's all they are.
I can't wait for the world cup to begin and am only looking forward to that. and the Heineken Cup.
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RE: my post that hasn't a number yet. Just checked it out on youtube. Dawson made that cracking break, Johnson made a couple of extra centimetres....... still, he was immense. one of those players that you loath playing against because he's an a-hole but would love to have in your team - mainly because he'd be an a-hole to the opposition and also because he was so good.
I remember ian mcgeechan saying he chose him as 97 lions captain because he wanted someone who would knock on the opposition dressing room door to say "we're ready" that would scare the bejaysus out of the opposition. if he did that to me, i would positively soil myself.
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I'm responding to myself again... regarding that 'couple of centimetres', i guess you could say he realised they were in a good position but the best person to get the perfect pass to wilkinson was at the bottom of the ruck. He knew this and by picking up that extra centimetres and allowing Dawson to make the pass surely has almost as much to do with the England win as the drop goal itself.
I'm going to stop now, I don't even like the guy!!
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chuck agree with all your comments to yourself lol! joe doyle is the only irish fan trying to make excuses because of the ball! well it's more original than blaming the the referee! to be honest it wouldnt have even occured to me that the ball would make any difference! maybe that's the ball that munster shouls use again this year!
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Cheers Emerald Star, i just feel all dirty for praising the English so much...!
(only joking, kind of.)
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Ireland XV
Dempsey
Makepeace
O'Driscoll
Darcy
Hickie
Ronan Keating
Peter Stringfella
Shane Byrne
Shane Lynch
Shane McGowan
Fr. Jack Hacett
Westliffe
Now thers a team to put the fear of God into anyone, especialy if they start singing!!
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Have to say this 6N gave me absolutely no confidence than the NH can challenge the ABs at the world cup. Only Ireland and France could possibly do so but both have lacked consistency and I can't really see it happening...unless NZ have a real shocker. Let's just hope that happens!
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from an england perspective!
a report simon austin has written about richard hill!thats a final report england need to bring back there world champs and build a team around them for this world cup,hill,dallaigio,grewcock,white,vickery,kay,catt,wilkinson,lewsey,robinson,tindall.....these guys know what it takes and given game time together and the motivation of a world cup they will get back to there best for one last time!!!!catt and wilkinson(with no game time)have shown that you have to raise your game for international standard and some players just cannot do that at this stage.the young guns will get there chance in 2011.for 2007 bring on the world champs.....
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triple crown "chokers"
of course you are - and should. there are plenty winder-uppers on these forums who should not be honoured with responses (tho everyone's proud of their country, so i understand why they are). the point is, there is an irish tendency to go the other extreme, and think either - A: they're on course for the WC, or B: fulfilling their potential as runners up in the 6N. they aren't. they have a formidable squad and should be piling tries on scotland instead of wriggling out of the jaws of defeat by a point. they should be holding the game against the welsh (especially a weakened welsh side) not relying on lenient refereeing and welsh inefficiency in turning pressure into points.
i hope ireland can reach their potential in a few months, but to pretend they at the moment is codswallop, and self-excusing.
also, the argument over player pools and population resources is old. ireland have overcome that problem with arguably the best squad of players in europe at the moment - why can't they win a european cup?
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liam
you're getting over-excited.
yes i can read. can you? then read again:
I specified that noone is saying ireland are rubbish - you have a chip on shoulder imagining that they are.
Instead people are reacting to the "glorious ireland" mentality that supposes ireland have achieved in this 6N. look at the awesome players in the irish squad and then ask yourself (a fine irishman i would imagine) if 2nd place is good enough? this was ireland's best chance to win their only grand slam in well over 100 years, and instead they let let bookie's second choice france win - again. we're all sick of the french winning!
i would agree that ireland france and wales are the best 3 teams.
for the sake of conversation i will even say ireland are currently the best in europe. but they don't act like that consistently and that is their fundamental failing.
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This is Neville Chamberlain's "WHITE PAPER" for the future of English rugby.
Starting England VX for the WC
15 Jade Goody
14 Jade Goody's ma
13 Warm beer brewer
12 Capt' Smith of the Titanic
11 Essex Girl
10 Gareth Southgate ( on peno's )
9 Tiger Tim Henman
8 Stan Laurel
7 Eddie the Eagel
6 Timmy Mallett
5 Michael Barrymore
4 Any of the teletubbies will do
3 Julian Cleary
2 Judy Finnegan
1 Mr Blobby
Now you guys have a fighting chance.
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travis i read your blog and agree that yes some ireland fans are going a bit too far and saying we'll win the week! however most of us are realistic enough to know that we more than likely wont. we'll give it a good shot though! just apointer we're not the only ones to get over excited though. on one blog after the england french game, some fans were saying england were a shoo in to win the wc again. just pointing out over exuberance isnt likited to the irish! nice sparring with you though! to liam good points man- however travis is at least one of the more respectful critics- suggest you look for someone much worse to vent at!
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XV
THAT'S BETTER NOW
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Really interesting blog team - keep it up! I thought the 6N was pretty woeful in terms of quality and skill, but there were patches of good stuff - all too rare unfortunately. As I've claimed before, most S14 teams would beat any of the 6N sides at the moment.
It will be really interesting to guage the NH/SH levels with the June/July tours. As long as everyone fields a proper representative team it should give some indicators. England in SA - lambs to the slaughter! SA are looking very strong now, completely different to last Autumn. Ireland in Aus (I think) - will be close, but never under-estimate the Aussies (NZ did at the last WC to our great cost!). France in NZ - will be another hammering for France I'm afraid. France are unlikely to field their full strength side so close to WC, and NZ will only do/show enough to win well. Overall though, they'll be interesting games to watch.
To win a WC tournament, a side has to perfom consistently well for 7 games in a row - this year's 6N demonstrated that none of the teams could perform well for even 2 games in a row.
We'll see!
Cheers!
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re: joe doyle
Wales there to make up the numbers joe? hmm...well that might be true but for fate - and the wc organisers - favouring wales with a good draw! Beat australia at cardiff - a real possibility - and wales wil have a home draw in the last 8 - probably against england. Again a very winnable fixture on recent evidence! So wales could easily reach the semis - hardly making up the numbers mate! Have to say the draw has not been kind to ireland! A tough group, and then a likely meeting with the all blacks in the last 8, hardly fair in view of recent 6 nations standings even i would admit (wc organisers take note for future cups!)
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I'm afraid those of you that believe Ireland have a chance at this years WC can forget it. They have France (their nemesis,and in Fance)and Argentina (very,very dangerous)in their pool. If they drop a pool game, they have to face New Zealand in the quarters.....bye bye. I just do not think they have the depth ie they rely too much on the old heads of RO'Gara BO'Driscoll and PO'Connell. If any one of these guys gets injured then it is curtains. I want them to do well, but I do not want to get my hopes up.
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233
Tell us something we don't know? I'm getting tired of all these people telling us Argentina are very dangerous? It's as if now they've beaten England they are to be taken seriously?
We've been taking Argentina seriously for a long long time. This will be the third time in the last 3 world cups that we've faced them. We lost to them in QF qualifier in '99 and they ran us very close in '03 (we won by a point). We also only just beat them in 2004 Autumn Internationls with 21 points from the boot of O'Gara. We've always rated them and always had very tough battles against them.
The idea that they are only now a strong side and we should be wary of them is patronising not only Argentina but also slightly to us.
Unless I read your comments in the wrong way...
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handy legend the thing is most of the irish are not naive enough to think we can win the wc! but to say we have no chance in our pool group is a bit unfair! yes it will be tough but we will go out and give it our best shot!and i think that we have the capabilities to win our group. it's not written in stone that france will beat us! i'm not saying we will necessarily win the wc or whatever but write us off at your peril! as for argentina yes that'll be tough but i reckon we will beat them. if we dont, then fine but lets not write us off just yet. and as for playing nz in quarters, lets cross that bridge when we come to it.
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handy legend why are people presuming that most of the irish fans think we will win the wc this year! granted there were a few over exuberent comments on this blog but to be honest reading the blog after the england france game- there were loads of english on there saying england would win it again and that was after one good game! to be honest none of the northern hemisphere teams will win it! but ireland are in the best position along with france, especially after the autumn international! yes we have a tough group but i'm not going to write us off just yet! and i'd rather be in ireland's position right now than england scotland or wales! so yeah, we shouldnt be naive to think we'll win the wc but neither should we write our team off not to progress out of the group at least! i will continue to support and cheer on my team and they will come out fighting!
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To the guy saying that Jonny won the world cup single handed, it could be argued that if it wasn't for Catt coming on for the second half of the Quater Finals England would not have even reached the semi's.
I'm not saying Catt won the match single handed but that a number of players put their hands up at different stages in the tournament resulting in the overall win.
to say it was just jonny smacks of someone who has only watched rugby since 2003 with no knowledge of the game just reads the sun.
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Grow up! I don't think England are going to win the World Cup. But although Ireland are currently stronger than England and Wales, Ireland have a much harder draw. England and Wales have a much better chance of reaching the semis if they play well purely because of the draw. I am not saying they are better teams because they are not! I would like to see ireland do well, believe me. No offense intended!
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A good asesment of england but a positive had to be harry ellis who played fantastically in all the matches and was the star player in the tournement! Wilkinson coming back was a great thing but what about jason robinson? He played very well in all his matches.
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handy legend didnt mean to cause u offence! grow up- didnt think my comments were that bad tho lol!
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thank you zinzan brooke for writing a report on corry in the second row!finally someone talking sense about the fact that corry isnt good enough in that position or in the back row........bring on the world champs and build a team around them,hill,dalligio,kay,grewcock,white,vickerey,wilkinson,tindall,robinson,
catt,
given game time this is the answer for this world cup!!!
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Is it me or is Brian O'Driscoll morphing into Shane Byrne??
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Yes it's just you Charlie Hodgson!
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Everybody on this site is deluded, NZ will not walk it,they never do, yeah sure they're a good team,but still very beatable.The one team that's been beating them constantly (once a year) recently are my beloved Boks, we'll smash the English for sure in our group aswell. With a (politically correct)full strength team we can beat anyone on our way to the final, where we'll beat the AB's again.
After SA,then maybe NZ, other than that only other teams with half a chance are France, Ireland or Australia in that order.
The rest should send their womens teams.
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Wilkinson won the world cup on his own? Come off it.
Sure he was the best player in the world but probably 5 of the pack would have been included in a world XV pack.
Also, people have the impression that his kicking won games. That's obviously true in some of the tight games. But actually in most of the games 2000-2003 we won by two tries anyway.
It was truly a world class team. Not just one player.
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205 ajohnson.
What a load of old tosh. Welcome to the 21st century. There are plenty of women who do more that "watch knowledgably". In fact I bet I can trot out quite a few that will have a greater understanding of the game than you.
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To Travis,
mea culpa.
Yes, as any supporter it is frustrating watching your team (no matter who they are) play brilliantly one week and rubbish the next.
2nd place is only good if it spurs you on to better things, but then again I would rather a silver medal than no medal, but of course I would prefer the gold. If winning is the be all and end all, one can be only happy some of the time, and no that does not mean one has to be happy with a defeat, but it can help one accept it.
Still, looking forward to the WC, and have started the novenas (praying),and hopefully the rugby will be more consistent and may the best team win. Once it is fast exciting rugby with lots of tries I do not mind who wins. Other than France, NZ, Eng................!!!!
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Travis
It is also frustrating to have commentators saying it was the balls fault. If ROG does not train kicking every type of rugby ball and any other ball he has lying around, he is not very professional.
I hope Ireland do not intentionally go out to win matches by lenient refereeing decisions, I should hope they go out to score more points than the opposition.
For every forward pass that went unseen (and the ref does not have the benefit of TV cameras)there have been chances where Ireland missed out, like G.Murphy running under the French posts while advantage was being played, but the ref blew his whistle (swings and roundabouts).
What gets me are peoples comments saying Ireland were lucky when they win and chokers when the lose.
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Reflecting on RBS 6 Nations
Now that the dust has settled and everybody has come terms with the high and lows of the 6 nations, its time to reflect on the state of the game in the Northern Hemisphere.
We are a few months away from the 2007 RWC, and to be brutally honest the Southern Hemisphere has it wrapped up already
In order of 6 Nations table
France Group D
With the talent, flare and ability this side has, they team should be competing for the highest honours every time they put the shirt on. But all too often we see the brilliance of the French one week, then the same team can go out the next week, and perform like the local pub team. For my money too inconsistent, but maybe the home crowd will urge them to their ultimate goal.
Verdict – Runner up in group behind Ireland - Beaten by New Zealand in Quarters
Ireland Group D
Showed what a great team they have evolved into over the past 5 years, but as usual they seem to fall at the final hurdle. Whether it is pressure, lack of concentration, or maybe an ageing team that has missed the boat. With many of the established stars likely to retire after the world cup, I think the long awaited Grand Slam could be a long time coming. But World champion status may just erase the memories of their Grand Slam failings over the past 5 yrs. It’s a long shot, but probably the best hope of a Northern Hemisphere team winning cup
Verdict – Group winners – Then only obstacle to final should be South Africa
England Group A
This is a team going through the rebuilding stage, with varying degrees of success. As title holders they won’t enjoy being labelled one of the also ran sides. The reality though is that they don’t have the quality or experience to put up realistic defence.
Verdict – Runner up in Group - Beaten by Australia in quarters
Italy Group C
Undoubtedly the success story of the 6 nations over the past couple of years, getting ever stronger, and more competitive each campaign, at the expense of Wales and the Scots. I wonder how long it will be before they are winning games against the world’s top 6. Their team is made up of professionals all playing first class rugby across Europe, and they have without a doubt one the best packs in world rugby. If they can produce a back line to match, then look out here come the Italians.
Verdict – Runner up in group - Beaten by Ireland in quarters
Wales Group B
My beloved Wales, the team that puts me through so much anxiety every Feb-March for the last 35yrs, whether it be competing for the Grand slam or scraping a win to save face. Currently we have a great squad of players, capable of competing against any side in the World, but of late there seems to be this lack of confidence, passion, and maybe even pride in the shirt that they wear. Yes they found all those qualities in Cardiff against England (What a day) but the reality is that one victory against a poor England side, is not great preparation for the upcoming World Cup. Now there will be discussions, arguments, and even the odd spat between friends about Hook v Jones. (For my money it’s got to be Hook) But who ever Jenkins decides to pick, that person has to be on top form, and the best man capable of taking Wales forward as a team.
That said I believe our biggest failing in the 6 nations was the ease at which we gave the ball away. Lost far too much lineout ball, got turned over with ease by some teams, and made far too many unforced errors. Without the ball our back line has no chance what so ever
Verdict – Runner up in group – Beaten by South Africa in Quarters - BUT the OPTIMIST in me hopes for a stunning victory over SA to set up a semi final against Ireland. What if.
Scotland Group C
The Scots appear to drifting into rugby oblivion, taking the role of the Italians as the team everybody should beat. All of their rebuilding seems to show little promise, and fails to produce a squad of quality players capable of sustaining a good run of results.
They like us are a very proud nation, and thrive on past achievements, but at present they seem adrift without the necessary personnel to move forward.
Verdict – Third in group after losing to Italy for runner up spot.
History will tell us that New Zealand have been the favourites for all the RWC tournaments to date, with only one success. But somehow I just can’t see them throwing this one away.
Best of luck to all the home nations
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Is it just me, or am i the best fly half in England?
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I agree with your sports writer. Coming from a neutral view, I thought it was a very absorbing, dramatic final day of the championship but, it has to be said the overall standard was patchy. Every team had its good performances but also there were the poor performances and this lack of consistency (unlike England in 2003) should be a worry, especially for Ireland and France. I don`t think Ireland progressed and in the two pressure situations they didn`t cope. People talk about learning from the Munster experience, but how many close, lost chances do you need?! And I am still not convinced about France. Let us not forget they still let in 19pts against the Scots, let Ireland back into the game in the second half when it should have been all over (not to insult Ireland`s brave fightback), let the Welsh get a flyer and went missing against England. Even though they showed toughness to fight back against Ireland, Wales and Scotland on full-time, to me there are still some mental questions hanging over their players about being switched on for every game and having the real spine when it will come to the true test at the RWC. They could win it but they could just as easily be out at the group stage.
Italy showed the most consistent improvement but really were helped by the Scots in that game - and the Scots are very unlikely to giftwrap the twos RWC game, infact the Scots may have learnt more from that defeat than the Italians. Scotland v Italy will be one of the closest group games (If probably not the prettiest!). England, despite the last match loss, have made a mild improvement but probably too late for the RWC but could be like Wales in 2003 who shook poor form coming into the event to stage a revival. Other teams should therefore be wary. Wales, still have attacking flair and still scored some very nice tries - they will be good but not good enough simply because their tight-five isn`t up to standard and it was plain to see that in the 6N. What is the ABs biggest worry. Apart from injuries (and remember the effect Umaga`s injury had in 2003), the biggest concern is complacency. I think they have shown that unlike their predecessors in 1999 and 2003, they can handle the pressure and step up (Infact they remind me of England in 2003) and they are comfortable with the favoritism. Whereas with the previous AB teams it always felt like favoritism weighed heavily on their shoulders. They may still lose a game or even two come Tri-nations (esp against SA away) but I don`t think it`ll damage their confidence going into the RWC.
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I have to question some of Frank Haddens decisions. He is complaining in a report on the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú website that he would liked to have been more consistent in his selection but for injury. But it was him that has chopped and changed the debacle at S/O saying it was horses for course. Surely that sends out the wrong message and he should be putting out what he thinks is his strongest team and not the opposition dictating which team he picks. To compound this he is also saying in the Metro that one of the positives was when Patterson moved to S/O. I think everybody in Scottish rugby has been saying that for years that Patterson should be given an extended run at S/O now he is thinking about it with only 2 more game before the world cup. He seems to contradict himself continually or is he only saying what the public want to hear but acting differently?
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Good posting Dragon. As an Englishman I fear that England could struggle to get out of the group stages, but at least it will give the Celtic nations something to laugh about.
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Commenting about Irish players who would be good enough to get in the AB squad, certainly Darcy (my 6N MVP) would be in there - better than Mauger on recent form tho Luke Mcalister is also one of the form players in the world so far this year. O`Gara is a very good SO but I will still have Carter starting and NH pundits seem to underate his understudy Nic Evans who is also a quality player. They should watch his break against Wales in the Autumn game to remind themselves. The whole back-row is class and would walk into most international teams staring line-up but again McCaw didn`t win the IRB best player award for nothing!! O`Driscoll is a class player as well though he didn`t have a spectacular 6N due to not being a 100%. I like the Irish backs open play and it`d be great to see Darcy, Hickie, Dempsey (lovely running lines, change of pace etc - Scotland wish they had someone like him I bet!) etc playing in NZ super14 teams! Come on over guys!
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England is under construction, but I think is not too late, they can manage a competitive team for the world cup. Wales and Scotland are strong team when they fight with rage and hearts but it's difficult to play like this in a long term. they miss few stars to pull up the team but the basis are good according to me. Italy make progress, but their bench is weak at the top level. Ireland is a tyrannic team when all top players are presents but a little like Italy they show some weaknesses when injuries fall dawn Irish titulars. Irish forwards are correct but not the top. Irish team is a dream team but a fragile dream team. I think that the fact most of Irish players play together in the same clubs help them to sustain an high game level but I repeat it, it's fragile France is an enigma always! enable to beat All Blacks one day and to play poorly another day but it seems a team is born during the tournament, a team with a soul furthermore some injured key players will strenghthen the team. But which team of the NH may beat NZ ....hum.... who knows, a great Ireland vs All Blacks in a bad day in Quater final and I promise to drink Guiness and eat Irish "cookery" during a ....heuuu.... one day!
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NZ weren't favourites for the 2003 WC. England were firm favourites before the tournament began. They were rated about even with England by the semi-final stage because of a few below-par performances by England. Anyway that's all trivial now.
The point I wanted to make is that because of the fact NZ have blown three good chances to win the RWC, the whole Country is determined that they don't get this one wrong. The entire mental and physical preperation they have undertaken over the last few seasons has been totally focused on the WC.
So sure 3 or 4 other teams can count themselves in with a chance but I really feel like this is going to be NZ's year.
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* Luke Swan wrote:
if i was to pick a british lions team this year it would be this
I thought we were part this, Ireland(or at least most of it) is NOT British. It amazing how Ireland gets left out of the British Lions and Wales from the England and Wales Cricket Board
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Some random points.
Brian Moore is an entertaining presence in my living room - though i agree that his banter with Butler sometimes sometimes goes too far. But he is the bloke in the pub you'd want to sit next to - knowledgeable and humorous. That Scottish guy, who's name I forgot, is dull. I Like the Irish summariser though (ex-player; again forgotten his name!)
More comedy XVs please! 110 classic no.9 choice "my plumber" - fast service and hard to get hold of! Still laughing...
Charlie Hodgson - could that really be you? Gotta look out for yourself. Nobody else will.
Scrumhalfs (I'm one) - Ellis had a good Six Nations. Stringer a little quiet. As was Peel though I think he will come back. Shame Cusiter also had some bad moments. Troncon could struggle to revisit his form come World Cup - have Italy peaked too early. They will be lucky to have another seven minutes of madness handed to them again, as Scotland did. Mignoni was excellent and sparky.
England - who knows? Don't think they have any chance of actrually winning WC. I'd favour an overhaul with an eye to the future. Robinson turned the clock back, but why not take some chances on more youngsters and move away from Catt, Tindall, Corry, et al. There are already a few there looking promising, though only Strettle for me looks like a true find. One of the most frustrating teams to watch this year in terms of potential versus actual performance.
Scotland. Oh dear. The first 7 against Italy summed it up for me. Panic rugby. Lack of real pace - I mean REAL pace - in the backs. Shambolic at times and only grit saw them through their better moments. No. 10 is a problem. Why not throw Patterson in there? Hadden is deluded and keeps talking about how good they where in games where they were obviously rubbish. maybe he is the barrier to success.
O'Gara is was best No.10 for me - he has a calmness and the ability to direct the game very well. Good decision maker. Crucially he kicks well, for goal and from hand, which always helps to settle your team and keep the scoreboard ticking over. Making a break isn't everything - but he showed he can run too.
Italian advance marred by Bergamasco's forearm smash on Jones in the Wales game. But good to see them grabbing an away win.
Double movements. My understanding is that once you are felled by a tackle and held, you may place the ball in any direction (including a pop to a supporting player, if it is in one movement). If you are not held, you may place/play the ball or simply get up again with the ball. However, after being held in the tackle initially, the tackler must release you. At this point you must place the ball before getting to your feet to play it again, even though you have been released. Finally, if you are held in the tackle, but your momentum carries you forward, you may still then place the ball. But a further movement, under your own steam, would be classed as a double movement.
Check out the Super 14. SA looking quite strong. Ominously, ABs have withdrawn a squad of 20 or so likely members of the WC team for "conditioning". Think they return to the fray soon, to get some match practice. And still they have quality players coming through. Aussies have not been that inspiring, but they are bound to be in with a shout come September. Thats the great thing though - on any given day, that form book goes out the window...
From a Scotsman, born in England, of Irish descent, living in Japan.
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I agree with post 256. England were quite far ahead of anybody in terms of their efficiency and effectivenes in 2003. They had a good set of backs who, in attack, were marshalled by Greenwood so well. Hill, Back, Dallaglio and of course Johnson, were players of such calibre that were they playing in their 2003 form now, they would each be in with a shout of captaining any current team in the world except New Zealand.
The only thing I wonder about is if anybody puts pressure on them. Truthfully, they just dominate a game so much that I don't see anybody putting out a team that is going to put any pressure on them. New Zealand are 2007 equivalent of England in 2003. If they don't win, they should be ashamed unless something miraculous happens.
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To all the doubters of whichever teams
Save face and leave it till after the world cup!
When in doubt, make a fool of yourself. There is a microscopically thin line between being brilliantly creative and acting like the most gigantic idiot on earth. So what the hell, leap.
This quote i feel is being followed to the letter of the law here!
Come on Ireland! lol
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rajin nz today are 5 times better than the england team of 2003. fact. they'll win the wc and play brilliantly in every game as opposed to england who did well to win their games but didnt really start playin in the wc tilll the quarters in 2003. no offence england- it was a great wc win for ye!but nz are in a league of their own at the minute!the thing is nz have lots of extrra back up for each position so they dont need to worry abput replacements! seriously it's scary.
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The All Blacks invincible? I don't think so. Last year they were besaten by both the Argentinians and the South Africans. It shocks me that everyone is buying into this invincibility tag. Sure, they are indeed the best team in the world on their day but like many of their counterparts they too lose the odd game. Over the course of a championship or tri nations this generally doesn't mean you come away with nothing but in the World cup it will.
Every team in september will be hungry to topple the blacks. Lets see if they can cope with winning four big games without a stumble. I reckon any one of three teams can get the trophy.
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I have just read Zinzan Brook's article on this subject and write here just to let off steam.
Surely the B in Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú is for British and, whilst I appreciate the need for independance, do we really have to put up with the one-eyed claptrap he has written.
"Should NZ be worried?" probably not, but that is not because of any inherent weakness in the 6 nations they exist in the SH as well.
Apparently the Italian success this year is all down to John Kirwan (a New Zealander) who left them over 2 years ago.
Wales's problems up front are down to the loss of Andrew Hore (a New Zealander) as fitness coach.
If only there were more New Zealanders in world rugby, it would be a much better place.
Of course the only place where New Zealanders struggle appears to be their own team who are made up predominantly from Pacific Islanders.
Bring back Campese, all is forgiven!!
My view of 6 nations - teams (except Scotland and Italy) showed flashes of absolute brilliance tempered when playing teams (mostly Scotland and Italy) played to disrupt them.
What will this mean for WC? absolutely nothing, by QFs we will see the best of SH and NH and I don't think any one should be written off yet. NZ should win but they will meet a number of Big Banana Skins hopefully "on their day".
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Team:
1. Lo Cicero
2. Ibanez
3. Nieto
4. Nallet
5. O'Connell
6. Betsen
7. Wallace
8. Leamy
9. Ellis
10. O'Gara
11. Robinson
12. D'Arcy
13. O' Driscoll
14. Dominici
15. Lewsey
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The Argentinians beat the AB's? Don't think so.
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Foremost, France,Ireland,Argentina in the same group it's stupid. Besides the 2nd would have to fight with NZ. Cruel! the strength of the AB's is due to a fact their back lines are heavy. An average height of 10 Kg more than french players for example. The AB's play only a few months and 2 or 3 months for physics trainings like American Football. In the same time NH's players play all the time, in the NH it's the chaos between rugby federations and leagues. French league threats to switch off H-cup. A great cesure may occur with the pression of TV money's rights. Well, I think that maybe a super big clubs Championship in NH it would be the solution. In this case, no matters of date, can you imagine Munster, Ulster , the bestest clubs of the premier and top 14. it would be fantastic.
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re 228. You forget to add Mike Catt to that list and the great M Tindall.
Ireland 43 - England 13! - after choking in Twickenham against the Paddy`s last year and the humiliation of this year, I`d be keeping a bit more quiet if I were u guys! Chokers all!
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My team of the 6 Nations
1 Milloud
2 Ibanez
3 Hayes
4 Nallet
5 AW Jones
6 Popham
7 Wallace
8 Parisse
9 Peel/Mignoni
10 Skrela
11 Strettle
12 Darcy
13 O'Driscoll
14 Horgan
15 Morgan
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I am sure the Kiwi's get tired of being told all their players are pacific islanders...would probably be news to a fair section of the squad...williams, oliver, jack, McCaw, Hayman, Mauger, Carter etc...also I believe they play a long Super 14 season plus the tri-nations..not to mention tours...that being said their backs are monsters and I would not want to try to stop any of them.
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Yeah, I agree with Jim (#263). Who cares about the ABs when the 6N are on? Besides, we all know they're gonna choke again in the World Cup. When was the last time they won it? let me see...
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"nz today are 5 times better than england team of 2003. fact."
Ha Ha. Oh dear, spoken like a true armchair 'fan' who doesn't know much about the game.
Try not to embarrass yourself again.
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Why are the AB's the bench mark and why is the 6N all about the WC?
The Pacific Islands (opps I should say AB's) as a bench mark for the WC when is the last time they won it. A bench mark for Underachieving yes.
Ok done, in WC terms the AB's are not the bench mark. And guess what the AB's are not the bench mark for the 6N either.
But on the subject of the AB's a question. What has the Haka got to do with anything it really is becoming a total pain. 'Respect the Haka, you must respect the Haka' as soon as they started harping on about it being 'cultural' I really did lose interest. Anyway back to the 6N...
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ed2003 seriously try not to use such patronising terms in future. armchair fan my arse. england deserved the wc bck then but many of my friends are english and even they say england won most of their group matches while not playing to their full capacity.however it is the sign of a great team ,IN MY PERSONAL OPINION nz are far and away the best side in the world right now!AND IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, nz are a better quality team with a better calibbre of players than england had in 2003.m are we not allowed express personal opinions here. and ed i am not an armchair fan, not that it is any concern of yours.
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re 257 Well said Luke Swan!
We Paddy`s are not British, thats why The Lions are officially titled- The British and Irish Lions! If you had your way Luke, I`m sure you`d have more of your pussy cats in from Wales, all credit to you!
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#258 Steve you have a strange taste in drinking buddies if you entertain the thought of Slurpy Brain Moore anywhere you in a bar. ;o). I often wonder why Brain does not just swallow.
Remember 'conditioning' is AB parlance for Hake dance practice. We have noting to fear but a well worked routine all 15 moving as one a Kiwi river dance for the big men. I wonder which of the two dances they will do. Will it be the sticky out tongue big bulging eyeballs one or the sticky out tongue big bulging eyeballs make trout cutting action one.
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If the Haka is cultural, then why don't the English do a Morris dance before the game? Or the Irish do a jig? Or the USA a line dance with cowboy hats and leather chaps. What is all this haka business anyway? I think the WRU had the right idea: you do a funny dance and we'll sing our anthem AFTER it!
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i actually love seeing the haka and seeing as the maoris (spelling?) were the indiginous people of nz and brought the world's attention to theeir genius at rugby- they should be allowed perform it. i love seeing it and it's a tradition in rugby now.
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Emerald Star:
Yes England did play below par during the group stages, and yes NZ are by far and away the best current side.
What annoyed me was the way you just said NZ are 5 times better......fact. That's just silly isn't it?
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the point of the haka is that it used to be performed before a battle did it not?
#276 a morris dance?! the point of the haka was to scare your enemy, do you find a pile of guys wearing tight crothched clothes dancing ruond a pole holding hankies at all intimidating? and i don't see the big deal with when you sing your anthem, but it's traditional for them to come straight from the haka into a battle/game of rugby. so stop moaning and enjoy the cultural enrichment!
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Munster Girl, what's tradition gotta do with it? And what genius are you referring to? Genius at spear tackling Irishmen into the ground? Genius at world cup failure for 20 years? Me no like haka. Me prefer Morris dancing
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I'm not sure than Carter, Eaton, Oliver, Robinson, Smith, McAlister, Ellis, McCaw, Mauger, Jack, Kelleher, Hayman, Evans, Woodcock or the coach Graham Henry are exactly what you would call Maoris'.
They'd be more your decedents of European settlers types. Lets see we have English, Scots and German surnames in there... just trying to tie this in with a traditional Maori war dance.
I think the forbearers of the AB's listed were more likely to be facing the Haka than doing the Haka...
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Matthew # 279 think about it. Blokes dancing round you in tight crothched clothes waving colourful hankies is is pretty intimidating. It's scary.
But hang on 'it's traditional for them to come straight fro mthe Haka into a battle/game of rugby'
Rugby is a GAME rugby is a sport it has no relationship to a 'Battle'. Think about it! RUGBY is a sport. The Haka in it's current form is a new thind 10 years ago the Haka was not preformed with the violence it is to day. the last few years have see the Haka become a Become a violent and unsporting display. Mock cutting of the oppositions throat's in one version, has this any place in sport? No!
Cultural Enrichment? A hijacked tradition shoe horned into the 2 mins between the anthems and kick off more for the TV cameras then anything else. Cultural enrichment indeed. You want cultural enrichment, read a book, go to a museum don't lok for it at the start of a game of rugby
Catherine Jenkins singing a countries anthem now that’s cultural enrichment ;o). I tend to turn the volume down and enjoy more of the sight than the sound...
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Matty, what cultural enrichment do you get from the haka? That's a Maori thing for battle. What's that got to do with rugby? are you suggesting a violent link there? Is it a cultural thing to spear tackle people into the ground too? It's traditional for the Welsh to sing their anthem and then go straight into the game. who says their tradition/culture takes precedence over ours then eh?
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yes i know alot of the kiwis are not maoris-i'm just saying that the haka is done to include their culture in the team. ie the kiwi national anthem is for the non maoris too. like ireland with the 2 anthems!
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I see the wind-up merchants are back in ful force sounding of about topics they know little about and dragging up ancient history.
Never could resist a chance to stir the pot...here goes.
The Haka is the issuance of a challenge...seems fine to me before a rugby game...it does not equate with a national anthem...no matter what the Welsh think.
The Haka is symbolic of the unity of the two groups that make up NZ culture...Polynesian and European. It seems to succeed rather better than the rather dirge like Ireland's Call that my country men have to endure. The NZ national anthem has both languages...you just don't hear it because so many of the performances are woeful.
I guess being exposed to elements of another's culture should not be counted as cultural enrichment...we should all be reading Dickens etc to truly appreciate the basis of all civilization...England.
But maybe we should have more Haka like activities...we could get Michael flatley working with EOS...might actually help the Irish squad's footwork.
As for the AB's and the WC...in the grand scheme of things there have been 5 WC's in the last 20 years...England has won one, NZ has one...but I guess in the minds of teh English it is definitely a question of what have you done for me lately...which begs the question of their last football WC in 66? have all English teams since then be rubbish?
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Goodness we are all getting a little touchy about NZ all of a sudden.
To quote one of your own ...'Me thinks the lady doth protest too much' ...Calm down ladies please...
If NZ weren't so much of a threat one wonders if you'd be so venomous in your comments.
We have a great side and I am looking forward to seeing them play to the best of their ability just like I enjoy watching any great sportsmen...(or women for that matter)from anywhere. Of course I am glad that NZ can put together such a dynamic team.
It's probably time that the ABs leave the haka to themselves. It's a shame as it used to be part of seeing the All Blacks play but, as a New Zealander, I would rather they didn't do it if it gets misunderstood or creates an international incident.
As for all the sour grapes comments about the colour of our player's skin, because let's call it what it is - the fact that we have a lot of dark-skinned players in our team. New Zealand is a Pacific nation and if any of you complaining about the number of pacific islanders in our team had actully been to New Zealnd then you would see quite a few Pacific Islanders living there. NZ is not a 'Little Britain'. So why shouldn't these dark-skinned New Zealanders play for THEIR country??
Are you saying that we should only have pakehas ( White people) playing?
That would be rascist surely.
Funny though - the white New Zealanders are pretty good too.
Stop all this rascist rubbish. NZ is a multi-cultural nation as is Britain...just look at your athletes.
Face it - We're good ...and no amount of whinging about the haka or Pacific Islanders can change that.
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hear hear eileen! i'm irish but i love the way nz play rugby! ye are the best there's no doubt about. but i sincerely feel should ireland meet you in the wc quarters that we will give nz a good run for their money. nz are awesome and i will say it again- the calibre and quantity of players is the difference!although ireland will do well too!
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hear hear eileen! i'm irish but i love the way nz play rugby! ye are the best there's no doubt about. but i sincerely feel should ireland meet you in the wc quarters that we will give nz a good run for their money. nz are awesome and i will say it again- the calibre and quantity of players is the difference!although i hope ireland do well too! seeing as ireland probably cant win it although ill never say never- nz will win!
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Ah, Mr Gator, welcome back. A challenge, but only one team gets to issue the challenge, the other not allowed to respond without the precious ABs getting upset. Poor poor ABs. I do hope you'll be supporting Ireland in the WC, my friend. Remember what they did to BOD!
And, come on Eileen, do you really have to drag up that ugly word "racist". The lady doth protest indeed. So tell me, if you're all such a happy bunch of islanders down there how come you don't all join together and play as the Pacific Islanders? A joint team? that would be progress. Ooops, it's already been done, so why haven't the ABs joined in???
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bracchi it's ridiclous- i mean there's been south africans playing for england, aussies for ireland and wales so come on and get off your high horse- the fact is why shouldnt the pacific islanders play for nz!
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Re 289..
You have missed the point entirely..
What I said was that the players who may or may not have originally hailed from one of the Pacific Islands are now living in New Zealand and are New Zealanders playing for their national team ie: New Zealand.
I do not protest as much as despair at such petty mindedness that suggests that a national side should all be one colour - because really this is what several people seem to be whinging about - or that they need to be third generation nationals.
And with regard to your comment 'remember what they did to BOD' - what happens on a rugby field happens ...it is a contact sport after all. Why all the bitterness ...?
Could it be that you wish your national team was as good as ours?
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eileen what happened to bod was not a tackle that went wrong. it was a dnagerous moment in sport and people still resent the kiwis for pretending like nothing out of the ordinary had happpened. i'm a huge admirer of nz but that spear tackle could have made bod a quadroplegic forever. the hush hush that surrounded the incident angered the ppl of the nh as it was one rule for the nz team another for the lions who incidentally had danny grewcock sent off (deservedly) but that umaga incident was dangerous play. if it waa unintentional then why not play umaga when they came to ireland? yes rgby is a contact sport but nz should not need to resort to measures like that and it did come across as mean spirited to not even apologise to bod for putting him out of the tournament even if it was an accident! nz are amazing but cannot have the rules bent in their favour. that is why people are frustrated.
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Emerald star let me get this straight you are applauding NZ hoping that should Ireland meet NZ in thw QF's we will give them 'a good run'
So you don't expect Ireland to win and you'd be happy if they give NZ a 'a good run'.
I'm not sure that Ireland are there just make up the numbers and give team 'a good run'. I'm sure you'd be more than happy with a 'plucky' Irish performance. Where is your pride you have assumed two losses while sucking up to NZ 1, to be palying NZ we would need to lose to France 2, the 'good run' we are to give NZ. To hell with this friendly Irish nonsense. Irelands intention is and should be to win the world cup no if's and's or buts'.
While bending over backwards to worship and respect NZ rugby try and remember the respect they showed Irish rugby in the first minute of the first lions test. A huge respect show to the Irish rugby on that occasion. I think not. They remember the totals lack of respect show by NZ rugby to the Welsh nation when they danced in the 'Shed' in Cardiff.
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"The Haka is symbolic of the unity of the two groups that make up NZ culture...Polynesian and European"???
The Maori wardance performed in Pacific language is symbolic of a fusion with European?!
What a silly thing to say.
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#289 'Racism' An 'ism' the last defence in a bad argument.
Surly you should question appropriation by NZ rugby of a Maori tradition, add to that that NZ have not exactly been supportive of the Pacific Islands, And don't claim the NZ Maori team is anything other than a team designed to benefit the AB's. Kiwis claim by using the Haka they are embracing Maori and the pacific Islands.
Embrace the Pacific Islands and NZ multi culture by letting the Islands into the Tri Nations, A little cash going to the Islands would help, get some teams (teams not just players) from the Islands into the Super 14.
But of source this would mean NZ would need to put there money where their mouth is. So keep doing the Haka pass it off as a symbol of unity and meanwhile keep the Pacific Island teams weak and nice reservoir for NZ to tap.
I agree #285 Irelands call is weak but no controversy surrounds it. Ireland to my knowledge have never insisted it's host's put it before there own nation anthem or sulkily preformed it in the changing room. I used to like the Haka but that was before NZ decided it was the most important cultural event on the planet.
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Ah Eileen, a contact sport indeed. So holding a player up by the legs and plunging him into the ground head first is sport? Hmmm. and then the silence afterwards, no apologies. One rule for NZ and another for the rest indeed.
Why do you think I made the suggestion that teams should be of one colour? I can't see any reference to that in my comments. Perhaps you are putting words into my mouth. No, I'm just making a social comment on how your traditional people are treated OFF the rugby field.
I think your last comment betrays you as a NZ fan. The Welsh have a proud history of great rugby, and on our day we are as good as you. Perhaps you need to respect other rugby nations a bit more and get your head out of your backside :)
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sean i like and admire nz rugby. they are amazing and i meant that by giving nz a run for the money, that we could win! and it's not wrong to admire a team with an array of talent like that. i'm not sucking up at all. i reckon we'll top our group and beat france and argentina but nz will be a different kettle of fish. i do have faith in ireland and i really do feel we've a great shot this year but i'm also realistic. as for sucking up i'm not at all. i think nz play amazing rugby- as a fan of the sport, it has to be said nz are good. what's wrong with praising them. yes the spear tackle was wrong and the reaction from the kiwis was wrong but so too were the scottish this year and some scottish fans on this blog said they were happy about rog getting choked and o driscoll getting tackled. the worst the kiwis said was nothing or that rugby is a contact sport. they didnt suddenly slag off the whole irish team. so i see nothing wrong in praising the kiwis. of course i want to do well and if possible beat the kiwis etc etc but we must also be realistic.
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Emerald, Remember I'm not saying that NZ are not a good team. How good or bad NZ are does not interest me (unless we meet them in the QF's ). My complaint is about the Haka and the NZ claim that it has a cultural significance that is greater then the cultures of the countries that they demand must stand still and 'respect it'. NZ protect their right to the Haka because it gives them a competitive edge it's a bonding exercise for the team which focuses them. This is why they insist on the Haka being preformed last! If NZ found that doing the Haka had a detrimental effect on the NZ performance do you think they would still be doing the Haka
Anyway I'm please to hear you are going for an Irish win and have not given up before we've even started. I think we can avoid NZ (same as every other team in the WC wants too) by beating France which we are more than capable of doing. It pays to be realistic but how real are the facts you base your realistic view on. NZ WC record is not good at all and they have spent the last few years addressing this we will see if they have got it rigth come september… I'd hate to think of the WC as a done deal, what would be the point. Hand out the trouphies based on the pudits predictions and save us all wasting time on the WC.
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sean with all these comments i lost sight of the origianl arguement- the haka! i also agree that while the haka should be allowed and respected, i do feel that the kiwis would do well to show our traditions a little respect too. like not trying to paralyse players lol.
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Emerald couldt agree more
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...you guys still talking about the haka ...?
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no eileen we've moved onto discussing the spear "tackle" that could have led to bod becoming a quadraplegic and wondering why there was such an ominous silence from the nz camp!
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...Ok...just checking :)
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If Ireland meet New Zealand in the World Cup and they insist on doing the Haka,as it is their custom, can we insist on having a drink with them, as that is our custom, get them plastered and walk all over them!
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...we play you guys in a week or so in the Cricket World Cup. No haka for you to worry about but the ball is a bit hard ...
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Tal - Never said it was a fusion...said it was a symbol of unity for a bi-cultural, and increasingly pluralistic society. Something that Britain claims to be, but does not do much else to back up the words.
Bracchi - I am an irishman and I will be cheering long and hard for my country all the way. If the unthinkable happens I will be a happy man.
If we bow out early, I will cheer on the AB's...I have been a fan of them since the 70's and see no reason to change. Unlike so many on this blog I would be happy to see them win as they continue to move the game forward...something that England could do more of....sorry...I know you guys won in 2003...which was a considerable achievement for a 9 man team playing a 15 man game.:)
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