Wales v England player ratings
- 18 Mar 07, 09:21 AM
Millennium Stadium - Wales secured their first win of the Six Nations and avoided the Wooden Spoon with a hard-earned 27-18 win over England in Cardiff.
See what you think of my player ratings for both sides.
WALES:
Kevin Morgan - 7: A trademark performance from the full-back. Brave under the high ball, and some delightful touches with ball in hand. Almost put Mark Jones in for a try in the second-half.
Mark Jones- 6: Cut some great angles when looking for work in the middle of the park, but should have scored when put away by Morgan on the left.
Tom Shanklin - 7: Always willing to offload, and a handful for England's midfield throughout. His ability to keep the ball alive was a key feature for Wales.
Gareth Thomas - 7: Offered great leadership without ever really sparking as an individual. Turned bad ball into usable possession with his sheer strength on several occasions.
Shane Williams - 6: Electric running as always, but guilty of ignoring better-paced men outside him early on. A bundle of energy with ball in hand, it was a match of almosts for the winger.
James Hook - 8: Involved in everything and showed his sharpness with a charge down for Wales' first try. His kicking from hand was almost faultless, and his place-kicking survived a couple of hiccups to win the game for Wales. A mature performance which justified the hype.
Dwayne Peel - 7: A superb early break from turnover ball set the tone for a livewire display. Kicked intelligently behind England's wingers, and was always a threat himself.
Gethin Jenkins - 6: Able to shove England around at several scrums, but still searching for his 2005 form.
Matthew Rees- 7: Very little to fault at the line-out, and the hooker was a dangerous presence with the ball. A good all-round display.
Chris Horsman - 7: Showed good strength for his try, and a real turn of pace with ball in hand. Can be proud of his efforts in the tight too.
Ian Gough - 7: Dependable presence in the line-out, and a solid display in the tight exchanges. His best game of the Championship.
Alun-Wyn Jones - 7: Also did his line-out work well, and was that bit more dangerous in attack. Made some ferocious tackles around the fringes as well.
Alix Popham - 7: Stripped Flood of the ball in contact in the opening minutes, and was an abrasive presence in a Welsh back row which outperformed their counterparts.
Martyn Williams - 8: Excellent link-up play as always, and his soft hands kept several moves flowing in Wales' first-half purple patch. A clever kick to the corner showed his full football range of skills, and he turned over plenty of England possession
Ryan Jones - 7: Good from restarts, but could not make too many of his usual bullocking runs with the ball. Even so, a terrific defensive display.
Replacements:
Duncan Jones - 5: A decent display after his second-half arrival without setting the world on fire.
Adam Jones - 6: Gave the team a boost when he sprinted on in the second half. Wales' scrum held up well all game, and he played his part.
Jonathan Thomas - 6: Made a solid contribution on his arrival for Alix Popham, and tackled bravely to keep England at bay.
Mike Phillips - 6: Did nothing wrong after replacing Dwayne Peel late on.
ENGLAND:
Mark Cueto - 6: Decent positioning in his first full-back start for England, and brave under high ball but not much chance to join the line. A qualified success in an unfamiliar position,
David Strettle - 6: Very little chance to impress in the first half, but latched onto a bouncing ball early in the second half to spark a dangerous attack. Got more involved from then on but generally found himself shackled well by Wales defenders.
Mathew Tait - 5: Half break with first touch, but there was little to get excited about thereafter. Tackled his heart out, but will be glad to see the back of the Millennium Stadium again.
Mike Catt - 6: Similarly to last week, a mixed bag from England's captain before he limped off just after half-time. Kicked aimlessly and sometimes seemed to dither in possession, but a brilliant break right through the heart of the Wales team created England's first try out of nothing.
Jason Robinson - 7: Somewhat under the cosh early on, with Shane Williams proving a real menace in attack. Took his try superbly, cutting inside two defenders but could not get into the game after the break.
Toby Flood - 6: Came back reasonably well after his nightmare start. Wholly culpable for Wales' opener, he steadied the ship afterwards with some calm kicking from hand and at goal, but England's backline did not sparkle.
Harry Ellis - 7: In the right place at the right time for his try, and created the second with a rapier break off a ruck and the perfect pass to Jason Robinson. Sharp throughout, he enhanced his reputation as England's first choice number nine.
Tim Payne - 5: Up against it in the scrum, and somewhat static when taking the ball into contact. A nasty knock-on exposed him in the open, albeit from a shocking pass. Will come under strong pressure for his place on the summer tour.
George Chuter - 6: England's line-out functioned efficiently, and Chuter showed up well around the park. Saved his side by clearing up excellently when James Hook's second-half penalty hit the post.
Julian White - 5: The Leicester prop did not really dominate his opponents in the scrum, and he looks decidedly uncomfortable with ball in hand. The sight of a labouring White in the middle of the three-quarter line is surely not part of England’s vision of attacking rugby.
Martin Corry - 5: A step backwards for the former skipper as he gave away several penalties and struggled to get the ball in open play.
Tom Palmer - 6: A whole-hearted effort from the second row on a day for hard graft in the pack. Gave nothing away before coming off for Louis Deacon.
James Haskell - 5: Switched to number eight within five minutes on debut, and struggled to make a mark on the match although it wasn't due to a lack of effort. Nothing to be ashamed about, but a harsh introduction to Test rugby.
Tom Rees - 6: Provided a ball-carrying option for England, but was outplayed by opposite man Martyn Williams. Will be better for the experience though.
Joe Worsley - 5: England's defence captain was forced off after just five minutes because of injury. No time to make an impression.
Replacements:
Lee Mears - 5: Got his customary 10 minutes of action, but could not make a telling impact.
Stuart Turner - 5: Also came on towards the end and gave his all in the front row, but nothing to write home about.
Louis Deacon - 6: Battled well after replacing Tom Palmer and showed some decent ball-handling skills.
Magnus Lund - 5: Had to play the match out of position on the blind-side after his early arrival. Tackled well, but always second best to Wales' back row trio.
Shaun Perry - 4: A horrible knock-on shortly after his entrance was his most noteworthy contribution. Failed to provide the spark England needed.
Shane Geraghty - 6: Got 40 minutes at inside centre. When possession came his way he was always looking for a break, but the gaps were not there to repeat his thrilling cameo of last week.
Wales 27-18 England
Comments Post your comment
Boy I am so glad we beat the English! Hook was fantastic and so was the Welsh pack. That'll give us confidence going into the rest of the season. Fair play to England though even though in the first hour hour they were outplayed they still continued to fight with those two tries. But they can't seem to win away!
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Catt deserved seven at least!
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wa a game. Wales had no faults. but no offence... ENGLAND DONE TERRIBLE.
2day was like the 2005 grand slam i was proud to beat wales. Like people say England cannot win at the Millenium and i dont think Stephen Jones will get the no.10 jersey for a long time..
James Hook Done Amazin
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What rating for the welsh 16th man? Alain Rolland? That amount of mistakes (mostly forward passes) from an international referee is unforgivable.
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Your ratings for some of the England players are harsh, especially Tait who played better than Shane Williams, Corry (who was just about England's best yard maker, and he only gave away one penalty) and Ellis, who was Englands best player.
Shane Williams deserves a 4, but other than that its reasonable - you're dead right about Perry, I can't understand that substiution.
I do think though that the national bias has shone through over reason here though, not quite as bad as Eddie Butler though!
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Outplayed by the welsh pack. the one rating i would disagree with is Corry, he was Englands outstanding forward and gave it his all, shame those around him didn't do the same!
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As a long time England supporter, in view of the disgraceful treatment of Josh Lewsey, I actually was (secretly!) quite glad that Wales won, it should have been more. Come back Josh, immediately. We need you!
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Engalnd show admirable cosistency. They always fail to deliver when it really matters
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To me rugby is not about winning world cups, or six nations championships its about playing with a smile on your face and being daring with the ball in hand. Today Wales showed that in spades. We could have been a lot more clinical, and I think we actually made more mistakes in that game than we did in any other game in the championship, but we were trying things - to win, to really win so it means something, you have to dare to lose.
I've been watching Wales play for 17 years, and thats the most comfortable I've ever seen them against England. England, for whatever reason, were never really in the game.
Honestly, if you gave me the choice between Wales winning the World Cup and beating England, I'd take the win against England every time. There is, has been and ever will be only 1 game that matters - Wales have just won it, and it feels great!
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It was a win and a satisfying one. Let's face it, only a fool would say anyone wouldn't put on a Welsh jersey and not give 100% for the cause. The problems have taken over and put the team under the cosh. Today against a England team themselves desperate to gain consistency after Croke Park, Wales came of age and they did so well.
Let's not be twp and say there weren't problems and I think England would have formed a greater threat had Mike Catt not been forced off. However, the boys in red saw good and we all appreciate it!
Hook was sublime, the 'old head' epitomised by his deliberately not taking advantage when a kickable penalty was on offer.
I feel sorry for Stephen Jones, it wasn't too long ago he was touted as the best in the 6 nations. He's put his body on the line in all the other games and shouldn't be forgotten. Perhaps he should be moved back to centre in future.
Beating England is not the be all and end all, but it's at least a start, maybe they can build on that in Australia
Tonight though, life is beautiful. Cymru am byth!
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Mostly agree with the ratings congratulations to the Welsh for a fully deserved victory but if I were a Welsh person I would be furious that my team did not play with that passion and intensity for all the 6N matches if Wales could set aside the old enemy attitude they really could be a world force again as a Englishman I just want to see my team win regardless of whome we play not just a lets beat them above all else mentality.
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Pains me to say but Wales certainly deserved the victory, much more impressively than compared to 2005 where I thought England lost it rather than Wales won it but today Wales certainly won it …they look good! I think they were a little lucky to get away with some 'over enthusiastic' forward play at times (just nit-picking I know) but they clearly wanted it more, well done!
I think the mark for Tait is a little unfair, he defended really well and did about all he could do.
The Welsh pack deserved higher marks overall but not England’s; they were pants. The front five, once England's strength, are getting shoved around. The back row was clearly upset by first the loss of Easter and then Worsley, I think Joe would have stood up and been counted where others didn't. I thought Rees will grow into an England star in the years to come.
I can also see why Ashton wants JR on the wing now, what a finisher. Sadly, we didn't get the ball to Strettle and Catt's injury didn't help in that but it's about all the straws I can clutch at - fair play, it was Wales' day.
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Well not surprised that Wale salvaged their pride. Experience probably told. Engalnd can only get better which is the good news out of this Six Nations. France deserved the title having beaten Ireland but what a competition!!
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Will both of these teams get to the WC quarter finals ?
England were poor, front 5 haven't got a clue except Corry. Why does everyone think Julian White is a great scrummager, he's turned it on a couple of times against mediorce opposition but anyone who can scrum can hold him. Just remember he didn't do too much against Sylan Marconnet 'best mate' John Hayes. I've never rated Tim Payne either. Palmer is a basketball player good hands but not an international lock as he's not nasty enough.
Lets go to the backs. Flood gives the ball away too easy and looks like he cannot handle pressure. Tait is simply not good enough. Cueto is not a full back simple.
To be honest Wales could/should have put 40 points on this team. Bring back Stevens and the Sale lad in the front row !
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wales played the best rugby of the whole tournament thank to james hook who should have played at 10 after the Ireland game ,and brent cobain,colin charvis should also be given the chance to prove how good they are.ALFI should be captain for the world cop
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Fair assessment of Welsh side in comparison with English counterparts, but generally, English ratings too high. Assessment of Catt OK - but he was still by far the best of the English backs, so others are over-rated. England lacked many things, Skills and techniques apart, they also lacked passion and leadership, especially after Catt went off. As an ex-captain, I expected more from Robinson. Tait's half-hearted follow up of a kick ahead in the first half, making no attempt to challenge for the ball, means he has no right to wear the England jersey, but the same could be said for many other players. They need to watch that game again, frame by frame, and be brutally honest with each other. Some should never wear the jersey again.
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agree with the ratings although i would give Cory a 6, still like the faith in the new guys and an experience like this against opposition on a mission has to be viewed as a learning curve and life isn't always going to be rosy - streets ahead of a team un AR
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Oh well another disappointing 6 nations for me, but saying that never expected great things this early from ashton, he may nave been slightly enthusiastic saying the campaign was satisfactory.
Fair paly to wales and Ireland we were beaten by better sides on the day.
The ratings say it all when none of your pack scores over 6 your not gonna win many games.
Have good hopes for the summer tour get in shame nicely for the world cup.
Bring back sheridan and stevens and ward smith lose white and corry and life must be better
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Great to see Wales win but lets be realistic, England managed to come back into the game without even playing well. Wales finally managed to compete at the breakdown and need to up thier skills/intensity like Ireland have. It will be interesting to see how England develop from here. I hope all the British team's become super-agressive in the tackle area as it's going to be the only way to compete against the likes of the All Blacks. A way to go yet!
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I think you got the player ratings about right for both teams-nobody was outstanding and there were alot of mistakes!
Its been a long week for me as i do not agree with the selection policy of brian ashdon unless he has used the six nations to blood players to see if they can handle the pressure and still perform at international level-the answer is NO they can not!As for last week i have no idea why FRANCE played so badly,but make no mistake they did not turn up!
NOW lets start to concentrate on the world cup and get back to what england can achieve this year not 2011.......ENGLAND won the world cup by being in control and playing set piece rugby in control with wilkinson and catt putting us in there half,Johnson would not be bullied by anyone and even when england were on the back foot they had the experience to gain control and frustrate the opposition who would then fall apart.Some said it was boring well it may have been but england did it better than anyone else and its how we need to play this world cup to stand any chance. SO THERFORE WE NEED TO SEE THE EXPERIENCED WORLD CHAMPS BACK AND BUILD A TEAM AROUND THEM,DALLIAGIO,HILL,VICKERY,KAY, GREWCOCK,TINDALL,ROBINSON,WHITE,CATT, LEWSEY....THESE GUYS KNOW WHAT IT TAKES TO COMPETE UNDER PRESSURE AND IM SURE THAT THEY NOW HAVE THE MOTIVATION AND DESIRE TO GIVE IT ONE LAST GO....ALL THEY NEED IS GAME TIME TOGETHER TO REBUILD THE TEAM SPIRIT THEY HAD IN 2003.
THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR EXPERIENCE AS CATT HAS SHOWN AND I THINK THE REASON THAT SOME OF OUR WORLD CHAMPS MAYBE HAVENT PREFORMED SINCE THE WORLD CUP IS BAD MANAGEMENT AT ALL LEVELS IN THE RFU-HOWEVER THEY WILL HAVE THERE OWN MOTIVATION AND DESIRE TO GO BACK TO THE WORLD CUP AND PERFORM ONE LAST TIME!!! ONE THING IS FOR SURE THEY CANNOT DO ANY WORSE CAN THEY?
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Harsh on Mathew Tait, who did nothing wrong and will play a big part in England's future.
Generous to Shaun Perry, who's had a disastrous run in international rugby. He must have palpitations at the thought of putting on a white shirt.
The England front row for this game is a long way short of the necessary class; Tim Payne regularly gets shoved around in the scrum at club level and Julian White lacks any ball handling skills. Matt Stevens is streets ahead of either.
Congratulations to Wales who proved they have much more talent than their prior record in this tournament reflects. But England will feel that they've turned the corner and that better times lie ahead.
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Broad agreement with Phil Harlow except for Shane Williams' rating. He virtually threw away two easy scoring chances through inability to perform his blatantly obvious role of link-man at the time. Schoolboy errors - rating 4
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I still can't work out whether this year's Six Nations shows a great strength in depth of European international sides, or sides with a total lack of consistency and crunch-time ability to win games that matter, games that "don't matter", and being able to come up with big performances without it having to come on the back of a defeat. Ireland lost to the French and game back against England. England lost to Ireland and came back against the French. Wales lost to everyone and came back against the English. Are any of these sides a match for the All Blacks, Australians and Springboks? I still don't know. Ireland are number 2 in the world without having played the number ones for a while; the french are in the top 3 and received a lesson in the autumn. Wales deserved the win, showed what they can do. So why don't they do it more often? The same goes for the other nations. Any team can win on their day, sure, but why is it that it always happens to be the All Blacks when they're playing?
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Well done Wales. You deserved it. How many handling errors can one side make? Still, plenty of time to train before the WC.... er, no.
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England were very bad today, they seem to completely lose the ability to do the basics when they're on the back foot, i think some of the ratings are wrong though, i think corry had an ok game and deserved a better rating, as did Cueto, but England should be worried that they're best players are robinson and catt. as for Wales they did well today, as much as i hate to admit it, and i think they've been a victim this tournament of picking people on reputation, hook is obviously better than jones at the moment so the choice is obvious, the southern hemisphere teams pick on form and so should the northern hemisphere teams. As for the welsh ratings i though popham did a lot better than a 7 as an England fan today i was happy to see him leave the field, peel also deserved a higher score. Shane williams should have got about a 4, if Wales had lost today it would have been because of him i have never seen one individual throw away so many chances, overlaps etc he was really quite useless, I know it could be argued that he created chances but what's the point in doing that if your just going to throw the ball away. overall well done to Wales, England badly need some consistency and for Tindall to return.
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Welshman sitting in my office in Brisbane (Sunday morning at 9.30am). It's 11.30pm Saturday night there in Cardiff. I've just got a text message from a mate in The Old Arcade. Can you imaging where I'd prefer to be?
Good on you Wales: start believing in yourselves. Don't read newspapers. Focus on each game and not the hype of the competition (especially the RWC in France)... and do us all a favour: take the fuse out of Henson's sun bed; he's a laughing stock over here in Aus (bit like Beckham but without the talent).
Enjoy the night, wish I was there.
Robin
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yeah the welsh pack have let them down this season but still they havent been hammered at all this season, player for player the welsh have the 2nd best squad in the northern hemisphere talent wise.
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Yes, I agree with you on the ratings, particularly the comment on Shane Williams. Just a minor point on the feedback from Daron J; The Welsh have a lot of passion whenever they play and actually 'the old enemy' thing is really a combination of false media reflection and some odd English hangups. Generally the Welsh would happily support the English against a non-home nation side. It's all friendly banter anyway. I am proud of my nation's achievements, particularly as we are so few in number. Also, Wales clearly have some excellent talent and it is just a case of putting all the elements together. England will have their work cut out in the World Cup and my money will be on France to win it.
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Wales should have won by 40pts - same as Ire did at Croke Pk. Eng were v poor and were really there for the taking. However, I mustn't carp as any win versus Eng (no, any win, period!) is great right now.
Hook should stay at No.10 and I'd look to bring back Henson at 12, with Alfie captain either at FB or right wing. Up front, if Ian Evans can (re)emerge as the force everyone says he will be, alongside Alun Wyn Jones we could have two real class 2nd rows in the years ahead (although maybe too early for RWC07).
As always, Welshmen are "confidence players" so hopefully the win will be the catalyst to us playing to our potential - something that GJ has failed to deliver and, considering how easily we should have won this match, still hasn't. Remember too, that Hook was only at 10 by chance, not original selection. Having said that GJ should (and will) stay in charge until RWC.
For Eng, this was a poor shadow team and they'll be a lot better (up front at least) when they get some of their guys back - but defend their world cup, no chance.
Revenge for Wales in the QF...???
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no offence to any welsh fans. congrats on a hard fought and well deserved victory but is it a bit worrying that wales only performance was against the "old enemy"? fair play though. James hook was fantastic!
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Not sure how you can criticise Tait for 'only putting in tackles' and rate him as 5. What are the midfield backs supposed to do living off scraps. Given a reasonable supply of decent possession those backs would have caused Wales real problems.
The England forwards were hopeless from 1 to 8, but especially from 6 to 8. I was always worried that the back row lacked a 'streetwise' operator. I did hope that Richard Hill would be brought into the squad.
The other talent vacuum appears to be at
scrum half. Perry is just not an international player. Come to think of it we're not too flush with decent props either.
What England really lack at the moment is the consistent will to win. Our forwards have played two completely flat games.The lack of a decent forward platform is not something England have had to contend with for a very long time.
Wales have a competent front five, a good back row and half backs. Today they also demonstrated a great desire to win.
Perhaps the English forwards should be taught to dislike their neighbours a bit more!
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Da iawn hogia! - well done lads! Agree with the ratings. Great to see the lads back on track. But there should have been more like a 30 points difference today.
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Commentator exchange of the tournament in this game. Brian Moore's exasperated response to Eddie Butler's reference to the Pakistan/Ireland cricket.
'What are you talking about?'
Rating - Eddie Butler. He should wear a red nose permanently.
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I see people saying Catty was OK - look at the difference he makes. Wales 13 - Eng 0, sparks the whole team with a superb break - We get back to 18-15 at half time. England score 3 more points in the game.
It takes me back to RWC03 when Wilko got the 'Jonnywobbles' against Samoa - who did Clive turn to then - who stedied the ship at O/C that time and then again when England were struggling against Wales who stepped up and made the difference.
All of the greats make mistakes, its how you respond to them that makes the difference. Catty played 10 quite a while back and was booed off at Twickers, further back he was steam rollered by Lomu - BUT HES STILL THERE AND THE BEST BACK IN THE ENGLAND TEAM BY FAR.
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Yes,ups and downs with most teams but lets sit back and congratulate the Italians on their performances which although somewhat basic showed that they have arrived as a formidable force in the Six Nations. From now on I think the
competition will really be up for grabs every year. Am pleased with the final Welsh performance and hope for further progress.
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Well, time for a quick summary and resume of overall ratings for this years six nations......Wales comfortably defeated England, who had destroyed France, who had sneaked past Ireland, who had run riot against Italy, who had blitzed Scotland, who beat, let me think?... Wales! Oh well, roll on the World Cup!!
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I was at the match. Wales were totally dominant in the first 25-30mins but loose passes & self belief (?) seemingly prevented them from going further up. England seemed in netrual, Toby Flood (lost at sea - sorry !) but some brilliance by Mike Catt, Harry Ellis & Jason Robinson flattered the England score at the end of the first half.
A few minutes into the second half with Catt going off,so too their leadership, innovation & English threat.
The Welsh crowd were certainly inspirational in supporting our "6 Nations under-achievers." So thank you England for preventing Wales earning the wooden spoon & an excellent match.
The only question now is whether Gareth Jenkins has seen that Wales have a superb new number 10 with James Hook and a first class Captain with Gareth Thomas.
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I thought England showed a fair bit of character coming back the way they did but England fans and the English pundits in the media must realise that even with a fully fit Wilkinson this is not the team that fully deserved to win the last World Cup.As for us I think the old adage that it's harder to get out of the Welsh team than into it still holds true.We allow old stagers who have a run of bad games to stay in the team when they should not be.Welsh centre play is good defensively but in attack they seem to run at half speed,their purpose being not to break through the oppositions'line but to invite a tackle so the next phase can be set up.We have the worst attacking centre play in the Six Nations.
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i hear a lot of waffle, but to be fair, if you run out in an england shirt and then perform lke that, they should be ashamed of themselves - usual english arrogance. We lost to a very average side today. Shame
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Wales clearly a better team , but with some horrific frailties exposed by a poor England team. Without Flood's gift and a penalty Wales would have lost, which doesn't reflect their dominance.
Great performance by the Welsh pack and Shanklin and Thomas looked strong in the center of midfield. How Wales failed to score more tries is difficult to imagine, having stretched England to the point of no return and then throwing the ball away.
England either need new forwards or a forward coach who is up to the job, sorry but it must be true, this is the worst 6 nations (5) for 20 years from England forwards.
Lewsey's dropping was clearly erroneous, given the defensive disaster England were in the first 5 minutes.
But if Lewsey's form got him dropped I assume Payne and White will also be told their future is on the wing.
I agree with Tim @ blog13. What do we make of this championship when thinking of Northern Hemnisphere chances in the World Cup? 5 or 6 teams who on their day can beat any other second rate team? Are France and Ireland, demonstrably the best two nations, good enough to take on the AB's ? On a good day?
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6 for shane williams? As an egnglishmen, his contribution was vital to keeping the score manageable! He only had to pass out of the tackle once to have made the score comfortable, which makes the 5 or 6 times he succumbed to try-line fever inexcusable from a welsh point of view. Also, a little harsh on Strettle - he was electrifying when he got the ball, not his fault that the forwards were so inept.
Oh and can someone please remind Jonathan Davies that Hook deliberatly dropping the ball (a deliberate knock-on) in front of the ref was not good play but simple cheating? At least try and make it look accidental!
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Very proud of the Welsh team tonight, but we're not there yet as we could have scored about 5 more tries. As far as I can remember, Hook made one mistake kicking for touch and was superb the rest of the time. So I would have given him 9 or 10. Shane Williams made about 5 or 6 mistakes when it came to offloading or not offloading, if he'd been on top form, we could easily have won by 30-40 points. So he gets a 3 or 4 for me. He'll have his raw pace for several years to come, but just that is not enough in today's game. One of the biggest plusses throughout the 6 nations has been the physicality of the welsh game and the tackling, I'm certain they learned alot from playing NZ in the Autumn. They seem to love making the big hits in defence and almost pride themself on it.
Overall, we all know this Welsh side are capable of getting better. It would be fantastic if the core of the backs could continue to play together to gel as a team again. If this happens, who knows what Wales could do in the World Cup.
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excellent what a result!!!!!!! and once again the anthem with ms jenkins brought tears to my eyes.
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Please can Gareth Jenkind listen to Vin!
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Please can Gareth Jenkind listen to Vin!
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I live in Japan. Why did i stay up till 4.30am just to see get England blown away..again?!
Wales just totally annoy me. Why can't they play like that first twenty minutes, all the time?! They obviously have the talent. Luckily for England Shane Williams didn't have his best game.
The plain bloody simple fact is, the "celtic" teams carry the weight of a nations anger and clamour for revenge, into the game. Why do England always seem bemused by the sheer ferocity the the Welsh and the Irish summon up for "the old enemy"? Yesterday's match was a classic example;it was nothing less than war for the Welsh, hence them tearing around the park like a rabid tiger for the first twenty minutes. Sadly for England, i just don't think they can ever summon up that amount of vitriol. I'm not suggesting this is enough to win matches (it can often lose them) but its obvious that England lost that game in the first twenty minutes, having had the stuffing knocked out of them, by a team who were more fired up.
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Typical anglo centric views. Clutching defeate out of the jaws of victory etc... Sometimes, just sometimes, you can't put a figure on hearts and bones... Still, i guess that's what the impartial bbc is there for...
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The Welsh were the better side on the day and deserved to win. Hook was brilliant, and no one in the Welsh team, with the exception of Shane Williams who stuffed up 3 tries, played badly.
For England, Martin Corry proved again what a valiant and tirless character he is. He never gives anything less than 110%, and should keep his place at lock. Harry Ellis was very good. Jason Robinson is a class act. And Mike Catt has brought back what was missing from the England backline. Strettle tried, but seldom got into the game. The rest cannot be certain of their places.
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message 16. i totally concur. Henson is without doubt the most hyped player in Welsh rugby. Boring, tedious and frankly superfluous to the sport of Union.
Come on Gavin, come and join the geeezers in League. If you dare. I can just see Henson against St. Helens. Laughable and laudable. Invite Guscott down as well while your at it so he can mix it with the League guys who he despises with such utter contempt. AHAAHAHAHA
:)))
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Well that was a total disappointment as an english fan. I was really hoping to see Matthew Tait get the ball in hand be given a chance to do something with it but NO(at least we know he can tackle). 8 people just did not turn up again, the pack that English are famous for just were not in the game. Corry, that man gives away at least one stupid penalty every game it just does my nut. And as a whole cant scrummage cant seem to get to the break down quick enough i mean what are they doing there. Bring back some of the other old heads, Hill Kay Dalliagio. Mike Catt he aint perfect but you have to admit that at least he has an eye for a gap and can spark the line abit. So maybe some of these old head can bash a few of the younger one in the pack and get them to perform. And drop Corry PLEASE.
Well done Wales you wanted it more and you got it.
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Wales were the better team on the day, the axis of the victory was the whole of the back row working with Dwayne Peel and the managerial skills at fly half. Sorry but Mike Catt was not that good, he made a great break but often his positioning confused the team and his decisions and kicking at times were rank for a person we are told who has the experience. Front row was really poor, with that I include the line out throwing. Tait still hasn't had a chance to run with the ball but he needs to learn about position on the field. Was confused by Flood staying at 5/8 instead of moving to centre when Greharty came on. So why was Noon brought into the side?
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Very happy as a Welshman obviously, but i think its difficult to read too much into that game as to where Wales are headed. We all know our lads raise their game by at least 10% when playing against the English. Will they sustain this improvement? Just how much did it have to do with Hook's inclusion at 10? Well we'll see during the summer and world cup i guess, but Jenkins isn't off the "hook" :) yet. His team now has to learn how to perform consistently against teams like Ireland and France. Shane Williams (from my home village) has to learn how to keep one eye on would-be tacklers and one eye on support runners and Martyn Williams has to be put in cotton wool until the world cup, he simply is that important too us. Agree with the ratings, hard to rate the English backs as they got so little good ball. But their forwards have shown their ages this campiagn - Corry/Grewcock/White etc too old, Lung/Rees/Haskell/Palmer too young or inexperienced. Really dont rate Toby Flood, think the other lad with the Irish surname looks possibly better.
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Bit of a mixed bag on the ratings there. I agree with many posts that Shane Williams should have got a 4, thought he was appalling and against an English team on form, or another quality team his mistakes could have cost the game. Missed at least 2 try scoring opportunities by being greedy! His worst game for a long time and should have been taken off. Thought that Hook deserved a 9, Ryan Jones deserved higher as he made a lot of hard yards and was always carrying the ball, thought Gethin Jenkins deserved a 7, made some great hits and was always near the ball in the loose. All in all a good performance by the whole team, why couldn't they have done that before? Showing a bit of intensity because England are the opposition isn't good enough, we should be doing it every game! Lets hope they can take that performance on and buildon it.
As for England, they were blitzed at the start and showed a complete lack of desire and were devoid of ideas at points in the game. Thought they were very dissapointing. Thought Robinson, Tait, Lund, Palmer, Rees and the entire front row, didn't even get in the game. Credit to England however for keeping the game close. Thought Corry tried hard, but doesn't seem to produce much for the effort. Considering where they were at the start of the tournament can be relatively happy with their performances throughout, but have a lot to work on.
Seen a few comments about the referee being biased towards Wales, but sounds like sour grapes to me. He was ok, made a few mistakes, the main one being the knock on that wasn't against Tim Payne. But Wales 16th man? Absolute rubbish!! Admit that you were poor, don't blame the ref.
As for Eddie Butler being biased, he's no more biased than Austin Healay and Brian Moore!
Oh and the intentional knock on by Hook was sensible play, lots of teams do it! Again sounds like sour grapes to me.
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"Drop Corry"
Are you mental? Corry was the ONLY guy who stood up in the English pack today, a pack who weren t overun by men but by rabid dogs in red jerseys.
Get off the guy s back, he was no worse than anybody else and certainly alot better than some.
Funnily enough, i don t think the match was a disaster at all. This England team has alot of potential. They just don t have game time and experience playing together.
Wales took them to pieces for two reasons, they have;
1/ battle hardened players
2/ sheer gut instinctive determination to stick one up the English, damn everything else
(oh and Shane williams too)
Lets face it, the England game is not a game, its a bloody war.
Young players need to experience the sight of a Welsh man possessed, screaming towards him with eyes popping out and slaver flying.
Old heads may well have stemmed the tide earlier on, but these guys are but babes.
Give them time and they could grow into the new Dallalglios and Johnsons.
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I think the game was lost on 3 levels: England were complacent at the beginning and did not start well providing confidence and a lead for Wales within 3 minutes. There was not enough hunger to win the match (which ties in with my 1st point) and was subsequently seen by our forwards being bullied. And finally we did not control the ball at 10. We were disrupting line-out possession of Wales but did not employ an O'Gara-esq territory kicking strategy when on the back foot. The 'Row' was not powerful enough, which reflect the comments made. Ellis I thought played brilliantly, but even I was calling for him to be substituted before he did as he was literally out of gas! Tait, I am afraid I am not a fan. His size for an outside centre means his ball retention is poor and at international rugby you are not always going to get the space unless you make it, unfortunately Tait (although trying hard in defence) was not influential enough at 13. Robinson and Strettle were not given good ball from the front 5 being on the back foot and our inexperienced back row battled hard but were ineffective at securing 3rd and 4th phase ball and making turnovers.
A dissapointing finish for England, but we must look to establish some form against South Africa and ensure that we have a side that has experienced upfront and strength in the backline; Hill, Kay, Stevens, Tindall, Lewsey. We can do it!
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I've followed Wales through thick and thin for over 40 years. Yesterday I was proud to be Welsh. Thank you boys.
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Agree with all Phil's ratings save for Shane WIlliams. His head was in the shed today. Franky I think we got away with it today how the half time score board looked like that I'll never know!! England were poor , very poor today ann we picked up the win. Gareth must get the guys to put away points when they're there (watch the video shane!).
James Hook - superstuff from a young man... What's with the pre-kicking "drop the blades of grass to see wind direction thing" - The roof was closed. Superstition or what?
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Wales deserved it. There intensity was up there with England's against France and England weren't expecting it. I was afraid that Stephen Jones' injury was going to be the worst thing for England. Pencil Hook in at 10 for the next Lions tour (sorry Jonny).
Englands campaign - Building a world beating team takes time and some encouragement should be taken. Palmer, Rees, Strettle and Tait are there for a long time to come and will benefit from games like this. There have been several posts on this blog criticising Corry. To all you people please try and watch the game. Corry was the press's scapegoat for Andy Robinson being a poor coach and making poor selections, and would have been quite entitled to retire from international rugby and see out his time at Leicester. Instead he continues to play his heart out in any position and was our best forward by a mile on Saturday. He loves to pull on that shirt and do it justice, the younger players will learn from him. Harry Ellis has been our most improved player in this tournament and has finally found the consistency to go with his talent. The most dangerous running scrum-half in Europe since Howley, all he needs is to sharpen his service a little and he will be up there with the worlds best. To those people criticising him - offer me a better alternative. Too many England fans are comparing current results with the 2003 team. Please remember that only one player who started the world cup final was on that pitch yesterday, lets celebrate the potential of these new players. Rees, Strettle, Tait, Ellis all have more caps at the same age than WC winners Back, Robinson, Tindall and Dawson did. How good could they be in 4 years time with all that experience behind them ? I am fed up with Englishmen who criticise their own team unfairly. Just accept that you are going to get beaten by better teams on the day but can still take positives.
If I was welsh I would be ashamed that it takes an Englishman stood in front of my team to get any sort of passion out of them. If Wales played the game at that sort of pace every week they would deservedly win more games
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A win against england does not hide the fact this has been a poor 6nations. Will jenkins learn. Will hook stay at 10? Worringly we should have beaten england by more, and they should have been out of it at half time, but they weren't. Lets enjoy the win, after all its the first since Ruddock left, but we must learn our lessons. One ok performance against a poor english side does not a season make.
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Another match decided by the referee. England just dont seem to have the intelligence to adapt their game.
The repeated use of the elbow by Williams after tackling flood late was probaby only missed as a try was being scored, and Horsman only got over because the England defence was takken out illegally as at most rucks - but why didn't any England forwards (withthe exception of Corry) actually stand up and be counted.
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England were rubbish, Wales, albeit worthy victors (back row to thank)still don't show signs of being a side that could ever contest for a World Cup Final. But who was that awful referee? I wouldn't let him officiate a kids tiddly-winks match.
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A "5" for Corry is unmerited, he was the only English forward who actually competed and was our best ball carrier and lineout forward.
England no longer have a front five ( Corry excepted)with any devil in them. NO side can play winning rugby if the front five are on the back foot. The cupboard is actually bare of mean nasty forwards who quickly stamp their authority on the opposition. Sheridan & Stevens are not destructive scrummagers, but offer more than Payne & White. England do not have a hooker of international standard, full stop. And we need to find somehow a large nasty middle jumper to play along side Corry. The back row will sort itself out if the front five are dominant. That said, Lund & Worsley fall shy of the mark, time will tell about Ward-Smith and Forrester. Easter shows much promise as does Rees, and of course the return from injury of one Lewis Moody will help as any combination needs pace.
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How can you give a player a score and then say that they were not there long enough to warrant a rating!
Welsh forwards layed the platform. I think that the English backs could be decent if they got ball going forward. I believe that the youngsters coming through are good, but the forwards are going back.
My scores are in brackets and reflect a better rating for England
#1 - Useless (3)
#2 - Poor international hooker (3)
#3 - Appalling loose game. Can only scrum, and did not even do that on Saturdy (2)
#4 - Reasonable (6)
#5 - Reasonable (6)
#6 - Average (5)
#7 -
#8 - Poor (3)
#9 - Best player in whote shirt (8)
#10 - Not the answer yet, give him some time I suppose (5)
#11 - One decent run does not make him a good player (5)
#12 - Tries too hard at the moment. (5)
#13 - Young, needs time but will be good when going forward. He is potentially the first creative English centre since Guscott ( i hated him though). Need to continue with him. (5)
#14 - Will become very good with time, actually tries to work hard (6)
#15 - Would have been better with Lewsey on the pitch and #15 playing at #11. Is not a classic # 15 (6)
I do not believe that Lewsey should have been dropped, he is the best of the English backs at the moment.
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Post 3-
'ENGLAND DONE TERRIBLE' i think you need to learn some english before saying anything else.
The only person in the England squad that showed up in Cardiff was Martin Corry, desperately trying to open things out against a poor welsh side but an even poorer english side.
The whole thing about the Welsh only want to beat the English is pathetic. If England are the only side Wales can actually win a game against and want to win against, well doesn't that say it all?
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Need 57 points to win the title. Please Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú pundits get real!
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The chargedown at the beginning flustered Toby Flood badly. England needed the experience of Wilkinson in the cauldron of Cardiff.
England's scrum failed to function at all, which for most may be very surprising but, really the Welsh front 3 have only really had major problems with the Italians all season.
Had Wales beaten Ireland in the first game which was perfectly possible, (Ireland played badly, Wales missed 2 or 3 chances of good tries) it would have been Wales challenging for the title. we are country of confidence - if we have it we are brilliant - if not we are atrocious.
For all upset Englishmen - if someone had offered you 3 home wins this season, and the chance to still be in with a shout of winning the 6 nations on the last weekend you would have grabbed it with both hands - especially after the Autumn Internationals that you suffered.
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An English loss to a hungrier team at a critical moment. Never mind - I expect it was all the fault of that Andy Farrell.
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Fair play to Wales, their 8 destroyed our 8, so English backs were always on the backfoot.
Pleased that Ashton stuck to his plan by sending on Geraghty and not Noon - Tait gets too much flak, he got zero ball but tackled his heart out - much better than he was 2 years ago.
Forwards were atrocious, Haskell is over-rated, whole front row needs changing, probably only Rees and Corry deserve their places
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OK so we won a thrilling game and played some excellent rugby but surely Gareth Jenkins owes the nation an apology. Why has it taken 11 games (including the summer tour and autumn internationals) for our pack to begin to function properly,esp at set piece, and why has the gifted Hook not been played at no.10 after his flawless display against Australia. England were dreadful yesterday and didn't turn up so lets not get carried away. One final point, Gareth, go public and appeal the the fans NOT to boo and whistle when the opposition are taken kicks, even when it's England.
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Just so sick of seeing England's pack blown away AGAIN. I though the Welsh pack were brilliant, committed, passionate, muscular. The forwards performances have been the trouble now for England over several years, it seems to take England several months to ruck the ball clear where as the teams we are playing against do it in seconds. We all know the problem, England lost their core players from the last world cup but that was four years ago, why hasn't England forward play moved on?
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Having given up playing the gamesome time ago I confess that I am not completely au fait with the current laws. However, is not a charge down a knock on? I suggest that Hook's try should have been disallowed and a scrum should have been the correct result. I know of no player who would not put up his hands to protect his face when approaching an opponent shaping to kick.
I also query Horsman's try. The ball was in a ruck, he seized the ball then lunged for the line knocking out of the way one of his own players on his way to grounding the ball. Is this notoffside, accidental or otherwise. Having got the ball from the ruck should he not have passed it backwards or moved to the side of his team mate to score?
Perhaps some one more familiar with the laws can enlighten me?
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Agree with *58, late tackle and elbow, not to mention forward passes and players coming in from the side, if these had been acted on maybe a different score. All said and done the English front 8 where terrible, but none of the home nations stood out on this 6 nations. Roll on the world cup we'll see who's turned upfor a game then.
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I would like to congratulate England for their substandard performance yesterday. Wales showed their potential to deliver exciting rugby (enjoy your international retirement Stephen Jones)and for the dour unimaginative Scots to finish above them would have been a travesty.
So congrats to Brian Ashton, another tactical masterstroke! On a more serious note, England need to frontup up front every game and cut out the contact errors. Wales need to imagine every opponent are England!
Normally I dontlike losing to the Welsh, it brings back the 70's mmemories, but I thought yesterdays game was played in the right spirit and with a desire to be expansive, even if we didn't execute it as well as the Welsh. See you at Twickenham next year for turn to lose!!!
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Wales played with more adventure which is why they won in my opinion.
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Great win from the boys yesterday! I was fortunate enough to be at the game and was immensely proud of the effort and the commitment the boys put in the game! No doubt this was helped by the amaizing atmosphere created by the fans! Agree with the results although think Popham and A.W.J deserve better marks - they were the most aggressive tacklers and ball carriers in the game! + these two are Wales two stand out performers in the tournament! I think the turning point of the game was Catt's injury, he was beginning to get a strangle hold on the game before he went off and as a result England had a inexperienced 10,12 and 13 which you can't afford to have in a Wales England game at the Millenium! GJ PLEASE STICK WTH HOOKY AT 10! For the summer tour i read in the match day program that he was going to try some new combinations, so hopefully Phillips and Hooky at halfbacks, Henson and Shanksy centres i'd give tom james a go on the wing with Alfie at full back and Shaney on tuther wing! Give Charvis, Cockbain, Tandy and Gavin Evans a go at some point aswell!
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Just a shame about the referre, Wales had a very deserving victory that was soured by some poor decision making against England by the ref. This is not sour grapes, we would have lost anyway, poor refereeing took some of the limelight away from a solid Wales performance.
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Wales deserved the win, no arguments there, but it wasn't a great performance. Hook gave them the result they needed the way Wilko used to do for us. Wales have had a terrible six nations, England not much better but still finished third. I really think the young talent coming through for England will start to shine, not in time for this world cup, but then that belongs to the All Blacks anyway so no contest really. Wales will struggle at those levels,Ireland will probably make the semis,as will France but the outcome is a forgone conclusion .
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Hate to see Albion lose but fair-do's, Wales where by far the better team...what on earth has happened to the once feared English forwards though?
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# 68, just for info
DEFINITION - KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team's dead-ball line.
EXCEPTION:
Charge down. If a player charges down the ball as an opponent kicks it, or immediately after the kick, it is not a knock-down though the ball may travel forward
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Comment on #Tim(23)Like you ca'nt make my mind up on this year's 6N.I think it has been disappointing from a quality point of view.I ca'nt see anyone beating the ABs or even Australia in RWC.France and Ireland possibly the best are in the same pool as Argentina,one of them could go out.Ireland are perennial under achievers and France shipped 3 tries against both Wales and Scotland.Yesterday was the best day purely for the tension coming frrom Rome and Paris and as Celt it pains meto say it, Cardiff was a side show.Strangly after the first game I thought England had a half decent team,now they seemed to have gone back to zero.Nevertheless as a spectacle it beats most competitions
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There is just one big fault with English players in any sport they "Totally lack PASSION for their country"
Wales beat us not only by playing better but you could see they have passion when they put on the "Red Shirt of Wales"!!!
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come on, corry had the best game of the english forwards against our boys, he has shone in the second row i feel for england. Shaun Perry??? the most pointless substitution of super saturday. what exactly did he do??? harry ellis offers much more than perry
i agree with someone who said shane williams should have had four. He made numerous breaks for us but was guilty time and time again for not giving a pass...tool
though a very good game
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what a game! hearts were in mouths for 40 minutes in the middle of the match, but we were good for in in the first and last 20 mins.
wales team generally played ok, shane williams gets a lot of criticism for not passing, but where would he be if he wasnt selfish and taking the chances to get tries?
also, nice to see the big smile on Chris Horsmans face after he scored against his homeland, who rejected him. he's now an honourary welshman in my books!
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RE: DHB. No a charge down from a kick is not a knock on.
It really annoys me! Why can't Wales put this sort of passion in every game. It was great to see them win, but like others have said, let's not get carried away. England were pretty shocking yesterday and we should have trounced them, except our errors stopped us doing so. We'll need to be far more clinical come the world cup.
Not sure what to think of the Northern Hemisphere teams chances in the world cup as no teams have been particularly convincing in this competition. I think we'll all be hoping for the Kiwis to choke as usual!
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Sorry guys - I give them all 1/10 - it was like watching rugby from 20 years ago: all action, attritional, passionate BUT ABSOLUTELY NO SKILL. The southern hemisphere will only notice Ireland and France, who at least play like they know how to pass, catch, kick and run. Some will be happy with the result, but this isn't the future of rugby.
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I think the criticisms of Shane Williams have been harsh. It was his skill and pace that made many of these breaks in the first place and on another day with a different rub of the green we would be lauding him. Phil Harlow's rating is about right.
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Just to defend Jonathan Davies' comment on Hook dropping the ball, against Very Tired.
First it's only a knock-on if it goes forward. Did it ? Second and more important, you can choose any number of options that will end the advantage and sides do it all the time, quite legally.
Deliberate cheating ? Hardly.
Right about the game though. Never seen England mangled quite so comprehensively forward, nor Wales miss so many opportunities. Great game.
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Comment 67 , Well said .
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Well played wales, they outplayed england for most of the game and seemed to want it more. England however virtually scored every scoring chance they had though. I think that when Sheridan and Stevens come back and with the nucleus of talent that is there the future is looking good for 2011(much like our last WCC win)
As long as we stick to these guys and give them time to mould and learn it'll be worth it. Such good talent on display with more waiting in the wings. And don't forget the injury list too.
Shaun perry should be canned- another poor display and getting worse not better, and I think the end is near for Julian White too.
Don't forget wales 6th man- the ref. Numerous decisions against england that were'nt and those not given against wales- particularly the line out that looked heading to Dwayne Pee rather than down the centre!!!
But well done wales and look out for future england!!
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I think the last paragraph of 66 sums it up well.
For England it is not a question of this Six Nations or even the RWC, but forward on from that. Look around the team yesterday and there were so many players with a dozen or less caps. After the Autumn and what went on before I feel quite positive. It may come to nought, of course, but I feel the general trend is upwards.
Experience had a lot do do with yesterday - the back row of the scrum in particular compared to ours. But if Wales supporters can enjoy a single victory in a championship, I think we English supporters can certainly take some succour.
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I think you owe Corry an apology giving him a 5. He hardly gave away any penalties and was the only English forward who actually went forwards!!!
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So there I was, sitting in a shopping mall in the southern hemishpere hoping that somehow England didn't sneak it. Two good breaks down channels shut down with avengence otherwise, a lucky bounce and a lonely lunge for the line, that was Englsnds lot. Wales played with passion, territory and most importantly the ball for most pf the match. Nice to see the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú headline is that Ashton saw positives in the "dynamic" England side ;-) Presume Alistair Campbell gave the post match pep talk and Ashton debrief, as no one else could deliver that reflection. Enough said. Wales have had some tradgic results but played well in passages. On todays performance they are ready, so if you are onside, get behind them. You will deliver the confidence they need.
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Has anybody suggested England should have Andy Farrell at prop? He couldn't do worse than the two we had yesterday and he'd be a lot faster around the field!
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Well the turning point was catty's injury, he was just getting into the game and controlling it, great break, defence was good and he was everywhere again. If he had stayed on i think it would have been a different result. I think hes been a good stand in captain and made the team play whats in front of them, just like he does. Hes not affraid to lose a try to score two tries and that makes the backline fire... stick with him for the world cup i say! Theres no one else with that vision...
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Whilst we can sit here and continue to berate the performance of the england team as a whole (and don't get me wrong, they deserve it), somebody has to have a look at some of the decisions made by Brian Ashton.
Example 1 - Joe Worsely gets injured after 5 minutes, England need a replacement 8. BA opts to bring on Magnus Lund and play him out of position, moving debutant James Haskell to 8. Everyone above is pointing out that England were destroyed in the pack, mainly in the back row. Well with a back row, that between them amass something like 9 or 10 starts, who's really surprised? Instead of playing Lund out of position, giving us no balance, did the idea not occur to BA, that Martin Corry (who I'll come onto later) has 50 caps at number 8 for england and he had Louis Deacon on the bench to take over at lock. Surely Corry's experienced could have steadied the ship on the back row..
Secondly, bringing Shane Geraghty on to play at 12 was possibly the most absurd decision of the 6 Nations. He has 20 minutes of international rugby at 10 under his belt, and you want to ask him to play in a new position in a game we're losing, at Cardiff? What a joke. I know it doesn't fit with his policy, but there has to come a point where BA sucks up his pride and just opts for the sensible choice of Jamie Noon. He has enough experience at 12, and could happily have filled Catts boots and done the job. I know he's trying to blood youngsters and pick players based on form but they only have form in the position they play week in week out, not in new positions on an entirely new stage. So yes, we had Geraghty getting a bit carried away after one break last week, and trying to recreate it on numerous occasions only to get gunned down.
Team selection wise, I like the look of these new guys, but they need to blooded slowly and carefully. When injury gets the better of a player, we should pick a player who knows the position inside out, instead of opting for a new face every time, hoping that they pull of a miracle. It wont work every time.
I'd go with :
Lewsey - always comes up with the important tackles
Strettle - seems upto scratch
Cueto - BA wants to give him a new position where he can play with the ball, why not here?
Catt/Farrell - Farrel got a lot of unfair stick.
Wilkinson - do we all agree we need him now? He knows how to handle the pressure.
Ellis - the only contender
Sheridan - bring the bosh!
Mears - dynamic
Stevens - quality
Palmer - Good hands
Corry - hard as nails
Hill - wise head needed
Rees - the outstanding 7 in the prem
Easter/Forrester - Easter plays the ball well but forrester brings pace to the game. DWS when he's back.
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I have one major gripe about these ratings and little paragraphs about how a player perfored. Haskell had a sound match, especially for his debut. Granted he didnt stamp his authority on the match, but carried the ball well, didnt miss a takle, when he was tackled he set the ball up effectively and efficiently, was always in support of the backs, which was imperitive with their lowsy performance. I personally saw Haskell's performance as pleasing and would have rated him at worst a 6, probably a 7. The only better England performer was Ellis.
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I thought Wales were brilliant for the 1st 20 mins and with a little more composure would half finished the match by half time. Shane was guilty of throwing a few bad passes or not passing but look at it the other way he was getting through 3 players 1st which was creating the opportunities, now we have won i think we can build on this and these passes will go to hand.
The forwards were immense and hearing Moore actually praise them says what a performance they had. The most annoying thing about this tournament is we all knew before this team has the potential to play like that and showed glimpses in matches but never had the commitment. This team is more talented than 2005 and has good depth in most positions.
England were simply outplayed and struggled with the pressure, I was surprised that some commentators thought an England win was a foregonne conclusion i always thought it'd be tight.
England have some potential superstars like Strettle and Geherety but the depth and experience does not seem to be there like Ireland, France and Wales. SA in the WC will be very difficult and a QF against Wales or Autralia will be a test.
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i think if everyone was fully match fit there would probably be about 9-10 changes to the whole team and about 6 changes in the pack. england are virtually playing with a second strength side because of injuries. to get england's game back on track we need to find out why we seem to get so many more injuries than everyone else and then bloody well fix it. otherwise we will continue to disappoint.
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thought shane mark was right off losde did not come off but still created more half chances than the whole of england hope offloads come off in qf rwc
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Another appaulling commentary display from the anti-english Eddie Butler, who reduced Moore to engaging in petty slanging, when will the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú realise Butler's just not good enough!
Probably about the same time that the
England management realise that Shaun Perry is a total wate of space, slow on the ball, no pace and removing the space of his runners by crabbing across indecisively.
Again Louis Deacon another, 'impact' substitution, who is a wannabe Martin Johnson giving away stupid penalties away, without being abrasive or making the hard yards.
England have the potential but need to streamline their squad and remove those who are just making up the numbers.
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My Team
15lewsey
14robbo
13tindall
12catt(CAP)
11stettel
10guerty or wilko
9ellis
8ward smith
7rees
6worsley
5palmer
4corry
3stevens or sheridan
2chuter
1vickery
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My Team
15lewsey
14robbo
13tindall
12catt(CAP)
11stettel
10guerty or wilko
9ellis
8ward smith
7rees
6worsley
5palmer
4corry
3stevens or sheridan
2chuter
1vickery
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Great game with a lot of errors in the Welsh backs that stopped the score being 40+ .
Imagine is Jason Robinson or Lewsey would have worn Shane Williams red jersey for the day.
Corry was the only english foward that showed how Aston never switched him to 8 when Worsley went off if just bad management . Corry would have helped stem the Welsh pressure at 8 if deacon would have come on for Worsley . Instead play a few inexperienced fowards in diff posistions.
Wales hunger was evident only in this game and the backs saw more ball than they ever have against England. SW offloads and ball retention were awful he should have had a 4 although there is a fine line and he could have been a hero.
Mike Catt deserved higher he is a class player and stopped the Welsh steamroller with his try .
Harry Ellis to perform like he did behind the woeful 8 ....says to me standout scrum halve for the tournament.
Alix popham has been a revelation in this tournament , why was he overlooked for so long .
Ryan Jones was fantastic and truly dead on his feet . Some of the high balls he took and yards gained was fantastic . I can't remember him making an error.
Welsh front three were excellent all three making huge hits in the loose. Glad for horseman.
Both Locks for Wales were industrious. Gough seems to put four big hits in and thats where he gets his marks . Personallly i would have liked to see Wyn Jones partner Cockbain . As Cockbain has more 'nouse' , better in the lineout (NZ August 05) better clearing out and in the loose , plus he has almost the same level of aggression . Gough would be better as a fresh replacement for Cockbain for the last 20-25mins .
Hook was flawless . Would love to see Hensoon return to form and number 12 with shanks outside and thomas at wing or full back . With all Shane williams magic he is still to fragile against the Aussies and All Blacks . He always gets dumped and turned over against these sides . so with regard to rwc 07 . Same goes for Kevin Morgan , but thats a little harsh . Thomas would be my full back ...and i would look at another winger to partner Jones ...You can always bring SHane on with 30 mins to go .
England have major problems the modern game is passing them by the fowards although strong are not mobile enough . Biggest loss for England was not having (his name escapes me the no.8 who dislocated his knee with the double barrelled name) an outstanding prospect.
Geraghty should have started over flood like Jonathan Davies suggested. Flood is no where near international 10 and they have ruined his confidence as a youngster , like they did tait by blooding him against wales in Cardiff
I do have hope for Wales because of the group of fowards , which has always been our undoing in big games ...there was always the cry of the flair welsh backs never having the op to shine ...yesterday the fowards shone and gave the platform and only one or two of the back shone ...so for a change the backs must step up and work on ball retention and offloads.
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Fair play to mcbride the set piece was excellent for once
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Bit annoyed Wales escaped the wooden spoon but hey....
Both Ireland and Wales showed how to beat England - rough them up. The pack just weren't 'hard' enough and Wales were up for it. Lots of cheap shots around the fringe.
When all the forwards descended on Ellis and started rubbing his head - where was the reaction? A push from Corry (which produced a football like reaction from Popham - the big girl). I would have expected my team mates to have all piled in!!!
Summed it up no fire in the belly.
As for the ratings
Ellis 8
Bit tough on Haskell +1
Thank god Shane Williams can't see past his ego take one off
Hook awesome - can see what you guys are excited about +1
Martyn Williams +1 - best 7 in northern hemisphere
English front row -1
Troncon player of the tournament
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England seem to have done a u-turn on there problems. Under robinson it was all forward possession and no flair. Now its incredable individual efforts and a pretty crap forward effort!
I'm proud of the lads though they clawed there way back into i with two great tries. If flood knew what a pocket looked like we would have won
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Judging by the comments here its Farrell for no 8 then.
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England 3rd
Wales 5th enough said?
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I take back what I said before the match. I thought it would be all England and, as it turned out, it was all Wales. If they hadn't made a few errors in the last 20 metres they'd have won by a lot more.
Englands front 5 looked static and back row were consistently beated to the punch by the excellent Williams and Jones. Can't be too harsh on the England back line - they hardly saw the ball but managed to convert what territory and possession they did get into points.
Bring back Sheridan and Vickery/Stevens and Palmer's place must be looking shaky (not nearly as good as he was against Wales) but keep the back row - they'll learn but when Moody comes back he won't be any quicker.
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Everyone seems to be seeing Catt through rose tinted glasses, one good break but what about the appalling kick that got charged down that put us pressure and Wales went on to score.
Knew this was going to happen after the hyperbole of last week. Ellis the only good thing.
If Perry ever plays again god help us!
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Post 62 (England need somehow to find a nasty tall middle jumper) makes it sound like there aren't any candidates, whereas we have Brown, Borthwick, Kay, Grewcock (can't get nastier than that, after all) - it's just that they are mostly not-very-seriously injured or off form - too much club rugby perhaps?
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Good game, though in truth a battle of the also-rans. England are in utter disarray and need to completely re-structure their game and management. The win for Wales masks an utterly dismal season. Questions must be asked about the motivational skills of their coach and his selectional ability. James Hook however, (besides deserving a '9') was sensational and, as is obvious to any New Zealander, should be playing at number 10, not just for Wales, but the next Lions.
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Come on Beeb - do you have to impose Brian Moore on us all as a commentator? It would be nice to have someone impartial and balanced, not such a partisan english supporter. At the very least, have a word with the guy!
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Well played Wales. To out physical England means we can compete with the bruisers from down under. Shane Williams out Robinsoned Robinson today. Practice his passing and we have a real match winner. If you do a lot in a game, you leave a lot to criticise. Coming from deep he can flat foot the over large backs of the All Blacks. Peel excellent as ever. England are still playing an old game. its all about recycling the ball and you cant do that with slow forwards, especially when they aren't particularly physical. If your gonna go beef, get Sheridan back fast. at least he can knock people over. Then again, don't we want an exciting world cup? Surely even the most ardent Anglophile would rather see a team triumph playing the way Wales did in the first 20 minutes rather than Wilkinsons boot and Johnsons up the jumper.
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Get Shaun Perry out of the squad!
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Did the same team turn up in Cardiff that was playing against Wales?
I have to say that the England set up seems to destroy players at the moment.
What other team could lose the following and only lose by 9 in Cardiff? - Vickery, Farell, Wilkinson !!, Matt Stevens (one of the best footballing props in the world), Sherdain (human tank), Thompson (bigger and more mobile than Chuter), Bothwick (our best lineout guy)and during the Wales game Catt (second captain!) then Worsely..........
I think that the RWC has come too early. However, what Ashton has manged to do is unearth serveral diamonds in the six nations.
As Woodward put it - "We need to figure out why so many players are being injured by our domestic game and we will stand a chance of of getting to the finals of the RWC.
My ideal team (blending young talent and FIT old heads.)
1 - Vickery Cap
2 - Thompson (someone has to slap him about to get his tail up before the game!)
3 - Matt Stevens
4 - Corry (doesn't have the pace for back row now.)
5 - Borthwick
6 - Worsely
7 - Rees
8 - Easter
9 - Ellis
10 - Wilko (Shane Garaty as understudy if not fit)
11 - Robinson
12 - Catt
13 - Tait
14 - Strettle
15 - Ceuto
Bench
Sheredin
Mears
Farell (utility player Centre or backrow!)
Shaw
Haskell
Geraty
Perry
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I thought the whole battle was a fingernail biting experience.
All news is on Hook at the moment, but without the hard grafting and 'dog-hard' labour there would be no glory for the backs. Knowing how the English pack can and have performed, I thought the Welsh forwards were feisty and showed a lot of that grit that we have seen them perform in the past.
Gough was awesome, and in my mind, he should have had man of the match! It was nice to see Ryan Jones show a little bit of that 'once had' sparkle too!
There is no question that we hold a squad with some world class players, but we still need to face the facts that we've taken too long to warm up!
I hope we have sufficient amount of 'game play' to allow us to gain enough experienced to start the world cup at a high sufficent level.
Sayin that, I can't understand why we haven't played more of the squad to allow a better gelling process.
Never the less: It was nice to end on a high.
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England conned again by a better side who should have scored more.
Good marks go to Corry 8, Ellis 8 and Robinson 8 for skill and endeavour. Catt 7 for a great run/vision
Poor marks go to Perry 0, Worsley 0 Both props can have 3 for being at each scrum, crouching, touching and engaging. Palmer 4, Chuter 5, the back row 4 or 5 for not providing much attack or defence.
Outside Flood 4 Tait 3, Cueto 4, Strettle 5.
All those with less than 5 brought nothing to the game at all except problems for their team mates who had some joined up ideas.
Disappointing if you are English. Bring back neil back who I saw play today. He runs straight, tackles, offloads, commits two tacklers, finds stuff on the ground and gave away no penalties.
All done at a decent speed despite it being a "friendly"
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I think all the england ratings are too high. not sure i agree with players getting higher marks for effort as it surely must be the performance that counts. As for everyone jumping on the Ellis bandwagon... get off of it. the guy makes a few breaks and is man of the match and yet his primary function as 9 is to secure quick ball from the floor. When he finally gets to the breakdown he spends valuable seconds pointing at the ball or talking to the referee or contemplating his next move (he should be doing this whilst sprinting to the ruck/maul.) if he supplied fast ball perhaps the back row would make penetration through the gain line or the backs could attack a re-arranging defence.
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Hey! Late night i was proud to be Welsh. Beating the English on the field of battle at the Millennium Stadium. All Welsh players had a grat game. Lets see more of the same in the games to come.
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Flowing game which Wales deserved to win - Ashton has his work cut out over the next few months to bring together a cup winning team. Have Wales got the team - yes on their day but how often are they on it!?
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A thrilling game for the Welsh-Americans -- the Welsh lads played with great spirit.
The singing from the many Welsh in the stands was fine, too.
I did not appreciate the commentator -- he seemed to be quite partisan on the side of England -- most inappropriate.
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Enjoyed the game and enthusiastic French commentary (knocks spots off some of the Â鶹¹ÙÍøÊ×Ò³Èë¿Ú people), but could someone please explain why Jenkins (the former Wales fly, half-forgotten his first name) was allowed behind kicker James Hook (great game,)every time he took a kick at goal, not only in the England game, but also last week's game? Is a coach allowed to come on the field at will, should not the referee or touch judges stop this blatant interference in the process of the game?
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The Welsh played very well on the day and at the needed hour. Da iawn.
They also played well agaist the Irish, with such sustained tempo on both sides for the whole game (Remember!). This could have been Wales's win as much as the Irish.
But Ireland went upwards and Wales downwards in performance. Wales, playing as they did against Ireland, could have been 2nd in the championship or even running for the title.
We need to be able to sustain this effort, as the southern hemisphere does, and not just flash-in-the-pan suprise everyone how good we can be on the odd run out!
Fair comment I think.
Ymlaen Y Cochion.
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Good game by the Welsh numbers 1-10. But as an England supporter, what really concerned me was BA's use of our bench. When Worsley (a big, experienced back row - er... like Corry) came off, why on earth didn't he bring on Deacon and move Corry back to 8? Instead we ended up with a back row with almost no international experience and with Haskell and Lund both playing out of position. Same when Catt came off - the appropriate sub was Noon. It's great that BA wants to bring young players through, but what about all that talk of selecting them in their best positions...?
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Having recently got involved in the "place for violence" on the pitch Blog I was appalled with the Welsh behaviour off the ball on Saturday. Sledging is accepted and there was plenty of that but as I watched Hook touch down for the first (and deserved) score there in the background was Toby Flood being upended by a Martyn Williams clothes line. But it didn't stop there, then he felt the need to drop his knee onto the poleaxed Flood, get up, and do it again. I then saw Harry Ellis having his face pressed into the ground (off the ball again) by Alex Popham who then cried like a girl because Martin Corry "removed" him using his hair.
All the bleating (and I choose that word carefully) about Bergamasco, you guys are no better.
The bottom line on Saturday was nothing to do with astounding Welsh play but more to do with a fired up Welsh team roughing up an English schoolboys XV for whom the championship ended when Ireland rattled up a cricket score against Italy (remember them).
What England missed was a couple of enforcers on the park, dare I say Grewcock, Hill and Dallaglio - not the future I know but they would have sorted out some of the nonsense.
Working on the basis that, with the exception of Cueto, Robinson,Ellis and possibly Catt, England were not playing with first choicers in any other position, is it not now time that Mr Ashton told us his plans?
I think we can all see and be grateful at the style of play that he wants, but English fans have been through enough in the last three years and years should be justified in knowing what we are playing towards are we now building towards 2011 with some of these selections or are we just plugging holes whilst we wait for Stevens, Thompson, Sheridan, Borthwick, Hill, Ward-Smith, Wilkinson, and Farrell to get to full fitness. I suspect that the educated England fan will be supportive whatever the plan but until we know, we are going to be continuously disappointed with results like Saturday.
As far as Wales is concerned, get over yourselves. At home, against that England, on that day, a class side would have buried England by 25 - 30 points.
Shane Williams 6 - I think you were watching with Scarlet tinted glasses.
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First things first. Congratulations to Wales. You played the better rugby on the day - especially amongst the forwards and you showed all the passion and commitment from the first minute.
However, let's not get too carried away. Wales have essentially the same squad as the one which won the Grand Slam two years ago and this year only managed to avoid the wooden spoon with a single 9 point win over a very inexperienced England side.
Don't believe it? Look at the stats. A quick look at the WRFU & RFU website player profiles reveals the following. (The English figures include appearances in this year's 6N, whereas the Welsh figures don't - so the gaps are actually slightly wider than the figures suggest.)
Wales used 19 players on Saturday who, before the beginning of the 6N, had a total of 533 caps (excluding Mark Jones and Jonathan Thomas who don't exist according to the WRFU website.)That's an average of 31 caps per player (excluding the two I couldn't find the data on.)
England used 21 players with a combined total of 363 caps between them. An average of 17 caps per player.
England's experience was also much more concentrated amongst a handful of players, with only 8 players having 10 or more caps compared to Wales with at least 15 players with over 10 caps.
So, a well established squad that won a grand slam two years ago, managed it's only win of the Championship against a squad made up of young,largely inexperienced players many of whom weren't even in the squad two years ago.
A win's a win and Wales avoided the wooden spoon but, just like England, there's a long way to go if Wales are to have any real chance in the World Cup.
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Dude 119 - scrum half job is to distribute quick ball not secure it. That job goes to the forwards (typically back row).
I never used to be a fan of Ellis he always seemed more intent on niggling opposition play than on refining his job.
I think he has come of age this tournament though and is knocking on the "world class" door.
I cannot, for the life of me figure out why Perry gets the nod over Richards though. I think he's a plodder and, quick pass aside, doesn't seem to have the speed of thought of his counterparts.
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Good game. Slightly disappointed with the English performance but hats have to go off to Wales. They got it together finally. I was fairly confident that England were going to struggle in Cardiff and they did. Handling was poor. Our forwards were, in my opinion, not as hungry as the Welsh pack. The Welsh started supremely and only temporarily let us back in it. I have to say I thought they were going to chuck it away just after half time but they regained their composure and finished the job off.
I was at the match with my English dad, my English mate, my Welsh girlfriend and her Welsh family and it really was one of the best days I've ever had. By the end, I honestly wanted the Welsh to win because my poor girlfriend was beside herself! She thought Wales were going to mess it up. By the time the last 5 mins came, it was over. Everyone around me, English and Welsh was singing Hymns and Arias (Harry had a horse!) and the atmosphere was buoyant. I have no doubt whatsoever that the night out I had afterwards wouldn't have been half as good if they'd lost. Cardiff was on song (literally, I got into numerous singing contests in the pub).
Well done to Wales. I know how much that game means to you and you deserved it. Both our teams need to find some consistency but I believe there is real class and potential in both squads. Namely Hook for you, who is already making his mark as a top class Number 10 (his running compared to Ellis's really made him shine for me...great vision and such a cool head for someone so young). Strettle didn't get that much of a look in on Saturday but whenever he gets the ball, he looks dangerous...another exciting propsect for us.
Be very interesting to watch what happens to my team over the next year. The ability in the backs certainly is there. The forwards I'm not so sure of but I like BA and I think he may be the man to bring us back to winning ways. Much as I'm pleased for the Welsh, there's only so much ridicule a man can take...we'll do you next time boys.
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I said before england's game with Wales this weekend that i'd be more optimistic about wales chances than england's in the pending RWC despite englands 3 wins to wales none. Wales have a more settled squad and england should really look towards 2011 to be back in the top 5 in the world.
As an england supporter I wonder if we should try Strettle at fullback! we've tried robinson,Lewsey and Cueto and I just think we should get the ball into the hands of strettle more often - we'd lose nothing on the wing. I'd almost be tempted to try robinson at outside centre to get him the ball more often too after all he often has to come inside to get a sniff. he'd work well with wilkinson and catt
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Isn't it amazing how a victory changes your perpective?
I've spent half this championship bleating about welsh backs being taking out off the ball preventing try scoring opportunities or being punched by over enthusiastic Italians
On Saturday I didn't notice anything wrong in the loose!
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While we are on the subject of player ratings I would like to move upstairs and say that Brian Moore deserves a minus figure for his six nations. His commentary in every game was patronising both to the educated and non educated rugby fan, he was far too quick to be negative and quite frankly does not possess the on-field CV to be so opinionated anyway. That voice of his, well I imagine if a pit-bull did talk it would sound just like Brian Moore’s voice. Brian you ruined all the England games with your basic, droning, repetitive commentary. Learn from other great commentators, you do not have to comment on everything silence often works best.
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There was me thinking this was a tournament not a one off match- Wales won one match and everything is great - look at the table lads - if you had told me england 3rd behind Ireland and France before the Tournament I would have taken it anyday.
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strettle is the best thing to come from the 6 nations for england
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The forwards play badly, England lose and the Inside Center is not to blame. What on earth is going on...............
Time for Guscott and company to take off the Union Tinted Specs and see Farell for what he is. Someone who can take in a simple pass without knocking on, make powerful runs and suck in defenders and offload the ball (presuming england can find some other quality players to run angles around him). 15 players are better than one and suggestions that an inside center needs to be able to make breaks do not win games. Playing as a team does and that requires players sucking in defenders, offloading in the tackle, quick and accurate passing out wide and deft kicking from the hand. Farell has all these skills he just lacks slight pace, CATT has Pace and not NOTHING else.
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I think some of the previous posters calling for a 3 or 4 rating for Shane Williams have been a little unfair. While their comments are true, he was greedy at several key points in the match and could well have cost us the win, other aspects of his game were great. He made several breaks through the centre, as many as Shanklin or Thomas, he was constantly breathing down Jason Robinsons neck, to the extent that I don't think I remember even one trademark Robinson counter-attack and lastly, the cheeky swine slowed down several rucks out of view of the ref.
But yes, he definitely needs to remember how to be a team player. I'd give him a 5, possibly a 6.
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108. Thats bitter
Well Done to Wales- shame it wasn't more. Shane Williams's fault on a couple of ocassions, hes had a poor game but hes still 1st choice!!
Wales back row were awesome but i believe the performances in centre defensively were something to behold. Shanks and Thomas scared the living daylight out of flood, cat, tait and geraghty! More praise needs to be given to Shanklin this six nations, it showed how much we missed him in 2006
I still would like to see PEEL, HOOK, HENSON, SHANKLIN, WILLIAMS, JONES, MORGAN for the World cup (on form). With Thomas as an impact, this backline would at least give the All Blacks at least a few scares......
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we were ok we just had a inxperinced team out in the backs
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Geraint u rly are foolish aren't you. ture welsh lol unlucky rly. My beating England for you is better than winning the world cup coz u have never experianced winning it and never will.
Yes currently England are crap and I wouldnt call it an achievement at all as i dont even think they will make it out of the group stages this year.
But at the end of the day Wales only ever do well when the other team is doing crap.
Oh and you didnt do well in AUS did you Geraint..SHAME lol
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